National ID Card of May 2008.

[Carrionshine]

http://www.rense.com/general65/realid.htm

Real ID Act Passed -
The End Of America
Alert From Jews For The Preservation Of Firearms Ownership
America's Aggressive Civil Rights Organization
JPFO.org
5-12-5
On Tuesday, May 10, 2005, America became a true police state. Your U.S. senators voted -- unanimously, with no discussion, and without even reading the bill -- to create a national ID card.

The Real ID Act blackmails state governments into turning their drivers licenses into a draconian tool of the federal homeland security apparatus. If states refuse, their citizens lose such "privileges" as being allowed to board an airplane, enter a federal building, or apply for social security. President Bush is expected to sign the bill eagerly on Thursday.

In three years -- by May 2008 -- this Stalin-style internal passport will be an American reality. But your government will have _more_ control over you than Stalin ever dreamed in his most violent, vicious, anti-freedom dreams. (See links to the text of the law and articles about it at the bottom of this article.)

But that's only the beginning.

The creator of the Real ID Act, Rep. James Sensenbrenner, smiles and tells us that his Real ID Act is all about "solving illegal immigration" or "preventing terrorists from entering the country." This is one of the biggest of the thousands of "Big Lies" we've heard from the tyrants in Washington. The Real ID Act is about tracking and controlling Americans. You. Me. Our children. Everybody.

In May 2008, barring a miracle, America as we once knew it will be in ruins. It will be gone. And the rights of gun owners will be among the first scheduled for destruction.

GUN OWNERS: PREPARE TO RESIST

Here's your future:

* You walk into a gun store, fill out your 4473, and show your government ID just as you now do. But instead of looking at your license and taking down some information, the clerk runs the license (which is likely to contain a radio-frequency ID chip) through a scanner. Your purchase is instantly recorded in your _state_ drivers license registry. The federal government isn't currently allowed to keep a gun registry. But no problem; the Real ID act gives them an open door into your state records.

* Complete information on every firearm you buy will be instantly available to every police officer (and possibly every government employee, store clerk, or computer hacker) you ever encounter. You'll be an instant criminal suspect every time you deal with someone who has access to the database.

* Just as travelers are encouraged to get background checks and give fingerprints to avoid some of the worst excesses of TSA screening, gun owners will be encouraged to get background checks and give whatever biometric ID the Department of Homeland Security requires. This will be sold as a "benefit," ensuring you'll never again experience an "instant-check" delay. In fact, Congress, the ATF, or the FBI might even "mandate" 5-day or 15-day delays for anyone not enrolled in the "Trusted Firearms Buyer" program.

* The private purchase "loophole" will be closed, so that all gun buyers must make trackable purchases. (The ultimate goal is for _every_ purchase of every kind to be trackable.)

* Buying ammo? The store scans your national ID card and -- bingo! -- your purchase is registered in the state database.

* The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the amount or kind of ammunition you're "allowed" to purchase. Try to buy more and the database instantly rejects you.

* The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the number of guns you may own. Try to buy more, and the database rejects you.

* Eventually -- after the federal government "discovers" the obvious, that national ID won't stop either illegal immigration or terrorism -- the old attack on "evil guns" will resume. When they want your .50 BMG . they'll know just where to find it (because the Real ID act says your home address _must_ be revealed). When they want your evil "scoped sniper rifle" (you know, the one you hunt deer with), they'll know just how to get it. Ditto with you "Saturday Night Special" or your "assault weapon."

* If you don't surrender your guns, well, then the Department of Homeland Security will cut off your driving "privilege," as well as your right to escape the growing police state via plane. You'll be a prisoner in your own home, in your own country. Or you'll be forced to function as an outlaw, operating and living a precarious existence beneath the government radar.

PARANOID? OR PAYING ATTENTION?........

[Carrionshine]

.....You say these projections are ridiculous? That we're paranoid?

Well, frankly, if the Real ID Act doesn't make you paranoid, you're not paying enough attention. We ask you to consider the long-term impact of a few other acts of government.

In the 1930s, Congress promised us that our social security numbers would never, absolutely never, be used for identification. Now, they're the key to everything about us -- and without a social security number you won't get a drivers license and you won't even be "allowed" to drive after May 2008.

In 1913, Congress and the media swore to us that the brand- new income tax would only affect the rich. Well, how rich do you feel after paying 40 percent of your income (or more!) in taxes?

This is the way government works. They've even got a term for it: mission creep. And there is no creepier mission than the mission the federal government has currently set itself: to track everyone, everywhere, and to control what we do.

We warned you in _The State vs. the People_ (http://www.jpfo.org/tsvtp.htm ) that this was coming. That book is still relevant, still a good read, and still filled with information about what our future will be like in this new American police state.

Be forewarned. Be aware.

REAL ID: IT'S THE LAW AND IT'S CRIMINAL

Please take a moment to go to this site:
http://www.rebelfirerock.com/home.html.
(The Real ID Act originally passed the House in February as a standalone bill (H.R. 418) by a vote of 261-to-161. House leaders, realizing national ID would have been in trouble in the Senate, then added it to a must-pass military appropriations bill in a cynical ploy to make it almost impossible to fight national ID.)

Turning America into a full-fledged police state was just business as usual to your representatives. And, just as Adolf Hitler scrupulously followed German law while committing his horrors, so your "representatives" and the bureaucrats you face at the national-ID drivers license bureau will also be following the law -- the Real ID law that allows them to enslave you.

(To see what a real Bill of Rights leader would do, read the novel _Hope_ by Aaron Zelman and L. Neil Smith: http://www.jpfo.org/hope.htm .)

WHAT NEXT?

We have two choices now: Resist or submit.

More than 600 organizations, from the American Civil Liberties Union to the National Governors Association, opposed the bill. Even the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (which loves national ID and was largely responsible for an earlier attempt at such legislation nine years ago) criticized it.

We can expect lawsuits against national ID, including at least one suit led by state governments.

However, nearly all the opposition from state governments focuses on one area: They're upset because the federal government didn't offer them extra money to enslave us. If Congress bribes them with enough millions and billions, they'll gladly sell our freedom.

Only one state, Montana, has so far absolutely refused to cooperate with national ID. The Montana legislature passed a law saying they would not go along. However, that will mean that Montana residents are barred from flying without extreme extra scrutiny or from applying for federal benefits because their licenses will be "non-compliant." Although we applaud the courageous Montana legislators, no doubt we'll soon hear many Montanans demanding the "privilege" of having a real national ID card.

Ultimately, real resistance is up to us, as individuals. There are certain courses of action JPFO cannot recommend. But every freedom lover should be pleased if all the people who had a hand in creating Real ID act lost their jobs -- soon. And those individuals who truly value their (and their children's) futures should seriously consider making national ID their line in the sand.

We have already heard from many people saying they will drive without a license rather than submit to a license that has become a Stalinist control document. We just hope their resolve stays equally strong when they face a world in which it's impossible to buy, sell, retire, travel -- or buy a gun -- without national ID.

I cut out alot of the stuff. Click the link for the rest of it.

[Apollyon]

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had.
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty ****in' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom.
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little pussy
'Cause the only reason that you're here.
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ***

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a have to hook'in fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five

[:amaze:]

so i never plan on owning a gun. how does this affect me in ways that should make me paranoid?




:amaze:

[Carrionshine]

You'll be a good slave

Edit:Pardon that^. I smoked a tad bit too much. What was I thinking? Anyway.......

So, having our personal information: name, social security number, physical description, residence, thrown into a national database is not scary to you?

You are now gonna be on a watchlist even if you never committed any crimes. Stalin would have only dreamed of having this much information about the people he routinely murdered in his infamous purges.

[Akira]

I can't read that all this morning, I might after school. Quite frankly, I don't have high hopes for that article. Far too much rhetoric and propaganda for me to really take seriously. But I'll give it a full read tonight and tell you what I think.
What interests me is that the writing style seems like that of a crazy liberal, but the content of the article seems like that of conservative gun-nut.

[VomitStainedCretin]

This conspiracy sucks. The truth is I am the Global Police State enslaving you all, HA HA HA!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ringworm]

what else would happen by letting the Dems take control? :)

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Ugh. Bleugh. Etc.

[1987]

I am in doubt of this being what it says it is, if so. I'm already in Canada. Sucks to be you....Canada seems like the place to be these days.

[Morphius04]

Can I honestly ask... current proposals... apart from paranoia there's nothing wrong... if your buying guns and ammo etc within the law then the Real ID act shouldn't bother you... It's like other laws such as the Copywrite act... if you buy your music legally then it doesn't really affect you...

Did you know google keeps all of your searches in a database... it doesn't use it against you it uses it to keep tally on whats being searched for and whats being popular... as far as I can see, you already have your address etc on loads of government documents, if you buy a gun legally they can find out, all this is just another annoyance rather than conspiracy

[Light Fantastic]

um

privacy is still important to me whether im a criminal or not

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Can I honestly ask... current proposals... apart from paranoia there's nothing wrong... if your buying guns and ammo etc within the law then the Real ID act shouldn't bother you... It's like other laws such as the Copywrite act... if you buy your music legally then it doesn't really affect you...

Did you know google keeps all of your searches in a database... it doesn't use it against you it uses it to keep tally on whats being searched for and whats being popular... as far as I can see, you already have your address etc on loads of government d0cuments, if you buy a gun legally they can find out, all this is just another annoyance rather than conspiracy

Yes i think the point is that I dont want the government to know where i am and what i'm doing all the time because i don't trust them not to misuse that information

[the_green_bastard]

so i never plan on owning a gun. how does this affect me in ways that should make me paranoid?




:amaze:

That's exactly the kind of sheep attitude that allows such radical policy to form. It should make you paranoid because your liberties are eroding with every passing day. You should be paranoid because only cops and criminals will own guns. It's the principle! Forfeiting liberties that you feel "don't affect you anyway" gives the government too much power over the individual, and it's all made possible by your passive, disinterested apathy! Think for yourself, man! Nobody owns you - certainly not the god damn government! You are a human being!

I can't read that all this morning, I might after school. Quite frankly, I don't have high hopes for that article. Far too much rhetoric and propaganda for me to really take seriously. But I'll give it a full read tonight and tell you what I think.
What interests me is that the writing style seems like that of a crazy liberal, but the content of the article seems like that of conservative gun-nut.

Akira... God dammit... Don't spew political dirty words such as "liberal" and "gun nut" and claim victory. It demeans us all. Read the ****ing article and form an opinion. Yes, his posts are really quite biased, but refute it on basis of fact; and there is fact in there, not on the basis of his opinionated writing.

You'll be a good slave

Edit:Pardon that^. I smoked a tad bit too much. What was I thinking? Anyway.......

So, having our personal information: name, social security number, physical description, residence, thrown into a national database is not scary to you?

You are now gonna be on a watchlist even if you never committed any crimes. Stalin would have only dreamed of having this much information about the people he routinely murdered in his infamous purges.

And if they have all of that information about virtually every citizen in the country, they'll gather your locations at certain times; certain political meetings. Certain rallies. Certain websites, and activities in certain houses. They'll start to piece it all together in... "convenient" ways and silence your dissidence, because your activities now appear to be those of a "terrorist," a "communist," or worst of all; "un-American." They will then be justified when they silence you, and not a cop nor judge nor congressman will second-guess the decision. You must never, ever allow your liberties to be eroded for such facetious reasons. It is the point of no return.

It all starts with a minor infringement, "in the name of safety." People think "well, I'm not a criminal, so it doesn't affect me." Then it happens again, and with the right media scare, people will again be coerced from their level playing field of slightly reduced liberties, and accept another minor infringement. "A little more won't hurt, they think." No trouble. One more cigarette will never hurt. One more burger, one more drink, one more anything. People think of historical fascism as a thing of the past and of far-away lands. Their nation is proclaimed ad nauseum to be the "land of the free" which is forever battling all of the tyrants around the world. Fascism can never happen here. That only happens in Germany and in Asia. As Ralph Nader once said, "If you're not turned on to politics, politics will turn on you." Never give up your liberties. It's a nasty slope to go over, and you will never climb back up.

[Mr. Ron]

Can't say I'm a big fan of this. Is this real?

[the_green_bastard]

Can't say I'm a big fan of this. Is this real?

Yes, there's been talk of it for some time. And I assume you've been following the whole RFID controversy? My bunker in the Canadian north is sounding increasingly more cozy, and increasingly less an idea of jokingly paranoid fantasy. I'll be like the mad trapper, except I won't be as resilient, and I'll have kitties in my cabin. :chug:

[DBoons Ghost]

Everyone should ignore this pathetic propaganda and read the bill before making assumptions about this. I laughed out loud at the nonsense most have posted so far, with the only thing catching my eye is income tax. I already give Uncle Sam 40% of my earnings.

Go to the Library of Congress and search new bills and read all the versions of the Real ID act of 2005.

[the_green_bastard]

Everyone should ignore this pathetic propaganda and read the bill before making assumptions about this. I laughed out loud at the nonsense most have posted so far, with the only thing catching my eye is income tax. I already give Uncle Sam 40% of my earnings.

Go to the Library of Congress and search new bills and read all the versions of the Real ID act of 2005.

Okay, honestly, how many times do I need to say it? Say something intelligent or **** off. I'm sure I speak for must of us when I say that we don't want your small-minded ad hominem tripe here. "Nonsense," "pathetic," and "propaganda" were your insults this time, and yet they are not justified in your post. If you are such an intellectual behemot here, then set us silly monkeys straight. It would be for the good of the race, old man - educate us. Are you not even concerned the the CONGRESSMEN WHO VOTED THIS BILL INTO PLACE did not read the Bill? Or did you even bother to read that far before denouncing us as "know-nothing, conspiracy-theorising yung'uns?" God dammit, DBoon... God dammit. You've disappointed me again.

[DBoons Ghost]

You need to learn your place kiddo. You're nobody in here, and if you wish to use those terms, back them up with something valid yourself.

Start a poll and ask the gen pop of this forum what you're posting here and see how it goes for you.

I ask people to read the bill and ignore the spewage and that's unintelligent?

Explain that to me.

[Steerpike]

I read through the Wiki on this, and it hardly sounds like the damning Stalinist idea it's made out to be in that article.

It actually sounds more like a thinly veiled anti-immigration measure made to appease voters in states where this is a hot-button issue.

Not that I don't think it's stupid. I just wish they'd be honest with us. They're not trying to fight terrorism with this bill, they just don't like Mexican illegals.

[DBoons Ghost]

It's the illegals, it's parents whining about gun control, and it's actually a meagher attempt at controlling the flow of people in and out, illegal or legal. Immigration's handling of work visas and ex-patrioted workers needs stiffer regulation since companies can pull off anything with no regard for immigration with nothing more than a valid corporate tax stamp.

It's got postives and negatives. People can read the bill though rather then read this awful thread and get paranoid about it.

[ashman]

To be honest, having all your details in one big database, just means it's easier to find stuff about you.

Are these Internal Passports? Do they track your exact whereabouts? Do you need it to go for a piss in a public toilet? Is there gonna be some guy pointing a gun at you if you're not allowed to see your family in another state?

I've always been a supporter of ID cards

[DBoons Ghost]

I am supportive of some aspects, namely the gun control but overall it's a bad idea. Why not just brand us at birth with a bar code for that matter?

Cases of mistaken identity have nothing on the potential for failure in this system. Hackers being what they are, as well as the potential for internal meddling could spell absolute disaster. I'm more supportive of a DNA database.

[ringworm]

Sensenbrenner is a Republican from Wisconsin

yes Med, I was just joking :)


People can read the bill though rather then read this awful thread and get paranoid about it.

thats a lot to ask of most of these people in here :)

[ashman]

I am supportive of some aspects, namely the gun control but overall it's a bad idea. Why not just brand us at birth with a bar code for that matter?

The bar code is a bit extreme, but the ID cards would make things more efficient and a bit more easier. I don't actually know enough about this particular bill yet, since I haven't read the article yet.


Cases of mistaken identity have nothing on the potential for failure in this system. Hackers being what they are, as well as the potential for internal meddling could spell absolute disaster. I'm more supportive of a DNA database.

Yeah, I agree, no system of this scale would be even remotely problem free. But I'm hoping that they'd come up with some sort of solution to all those.

DNA databases are a more scary prospect.

[:amaze:]

That's exactly the kind of sheep attitude that allows such radical policy to form. It should make you paranoid because your liberties are eroding with every passing day. You should be paranoid because only cops and criminals will own guns. It's the principle! Forfeiting liberties that you feel "don't affect you anyway" gives the government too much power over the individual, and it's all made possible by your passive, disinterested apathy! Think for yourself, man! Nobody owns you - certainly not the god damn government! You are a human being!


uhhh first of all, i was honestly inquiring about why it would affect me, so take your rant elsewhere. thanks.





ps you sound like a moron by the way.





:amaze:

[Africa]

I don't care about this TS, and you shouldn't either. Instead, you should care about other things besides your selfish concern over the govt in ur filez, gettin' ur info'z. 1930 was a long time ago, the times they are a chaging and you're blowin' in the wind.*Team America reference*

Lmao.

[Danger Bird]

Could you please get a more credible source than ****ing Jews For the Preservation of Firearms?

[Akira]

Akira... God dammit... Don't spew political dirty words such as "liberal" and "gun nut" and claim victory. It demeans us all. Read the ****ing article and form an opinion. Yes, his posts are really quite biased, but refute it on basis of fact; and there is fact in there, not on the basis of his opinionated writing.

Better yet, how about you look at a few of my ****ing posts. I'm am extremely liberal. I said I would read the article. And I see no reason not to point out that it was written totally free from biased. I mean what the ****? The article was the one throwing around rhetoric like police state.

[Chameleon]

This is propaganda.

It doesn't matter whether it is factually accurate or not, it's still propaganda. I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but ID cards have been a huge issue here in the UK for the past few years, and the last I heard it was a 'when' as opposed to an 'if'.

[Electronic Wolf]

Could you please get a more credible source than ****ing Jews For the Preservation of Firearms?

This post is anti-semetic. I am reporting you to Serenity/Zero.

[griftadan]

just a further destruction of the federal system. not very surprisised.

this is going to be lame if liquor stores start taking federal ID's instead of easily forgable state ones.

[Carrionshine]

Could you please get a more credible source than ****ing Jews For the Preservation of Firearms?

Yeah, I realized that after I posted it. However the site provides plenty of links to other sites to give you more information on it. Including this one with Congressman Ron Paul sharing his take on it : http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=5887

[DBoons Ghost]

I found this link off wiki which is good as well. It's titled "Does the Real ID act contain a Constitution-busting Trojan horse?" which should settle the paranoia at the very least.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050509-4886.html

The opinion is from an article written back in 05 though. It's just informative enough that it should be read, and contains links to other sources as well as instructions on how to fight the bill, if that's even possible anymore.

[Morphius04]

I gotta agree i think this is complete propaganda post.... yeah there are pros and cons to this act but there is to all acts... and this is has had an extremely biased start....

[spitfirejunky]

Thank you for clearing that up DBoon.

I pretty much agree with Steerpike.

[italic zero]

nice post, spitefirejunky; I, too agree with Steerpike

[White Riot!]

jews with guns...

[Akira]

jews with guns...

Bad joke man.

[White Riot!]

Bad joke man.

it was a serious statement

[Akira]

it was a serious statement

:lol:

[Amit]

* You walk into a gun store, fill out your 4473, and show your government ID just as you now do. But instead of looking at your license and taking down some information, the clerk runs the license (which is likely to contain a radio-frequency ID chip) through a scanner. Your purchase is instantly recorded in your _state_ drivers license registry. The federal government isn't currently allowed to keep a gun registry. But no problem; the Real ID act gives them an open door into your state records.

what is wrong with a gun registry

unless you plan on using that gun for criminal purposes

this sort of privacy only aids criminality

* Complete information on every firearm you buy will be instantly available to every police officer (and possibly every government employee, store clerk, or computer hacker) you ever encounter. You'll be an instant criminal suspect every time you deal with someone who has access to the database.

i'm sorry that's an outrageous logical fallacy

a->b->c

so a=c

umm no

* Just as travelers are encouraged to get background checks and give fingerprints to avoid some of the worst excesses of TSA screening, gun owners will be encouraged to get background checks and give whatever biometric ID the Department of Homeland Security requires. This will be sold as a "benefit," ensuring you'll never again experience an "instant-check" delay. In fact, Congress, the ATF, or the FBI might even "mandate" 5-day or 15-day delays for anyone not enrolled in the "Trusted Firearms Buyer" program.

yeah it's a horrible thing that people who are so stupid/lazy/paranoid that they can't fill out paperwork also can't board planes

* The private purchase "loophole" will be closed, so that all gun buyers must make trackable purchases. (The ultimate goal is for _every_ purchase of every kind to be trackable.)

this is a bad thing how

* Buying ammo? The store scans your national ID card and -- bingo! -- your purchase is registered in the state database.

this is a bad thing how

* The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the amount or kind of ammunition you're "allowed" to purchase. Try to buy more and the database instantly rejects you.

yeah because stockpiling ammunition is what normal healthy citizens do

* The federal government or state governments can now also _effectively_ legislate limits on the number of guns you may own. Try to buy more, and the database rejects you.

how many guns do you need

* Eventually -- after the federal government "discovers" the obvious, that national ID won't stop either illegal immigration or terrorism -- the old attack on "evil guns" will resume. When they want your .50 BMG . they'll know just where to find it (because the Real ID act says your home address _must_ be revealed). When they want your evil "scoped sniper rifle" (you know, the one you hunt deer with), they'll know just how to get it. Ditto with you "Saturday Night Special" or your "assault weapon."

wait do you hunt deer with a .50 bmg too

* If you don't surrender your guns, well, then the Department of Homeland Security will cut off your driving "privilege," as well as your right to escape the growing police state via plane. You'll be a prisoner in your own home, in your own country. Or you'll be forced to function as an outlaw, operating and living a precarious existence beneath the government radar.

then register your guns and stop bitching; if you can pay taxes then registering guns can't be too hard

since gun control was first introduced in america, the same sort of complaints and hilarious conspiracy theories come up every damn time

you guys really need new material

PARANOID? OR PAYING ATTENTION?........

paranoid and whoring for attention seems more likely

[alaskansnollama]

He's a strong advocate of the 2nd Amendment.

Personally, I think this bill is going nowhere. Too many people in our country oppose the extremity of parts of this for it to gain much momentum. If it did, it'd become a huge media play on at least Fox News Channel, thereby getting an outrage from the Southern Americans.

It goes slightly further than Cynthia McKinney's Impeachment Bill.

Understandable concept, too much restriction on freedoms.
I'll give it 3.5 stars out of 10.

[Akira]

What bothers me about the second amendment is that it is hundreds of years out of date. The US no longer needs a well-kept militia.

[Jharaski]

What bothers me about the second amendment is that it is hundreds of years out of date. The US no longer needs a well-kept militia.

Say wha...

[Amit]

oh no akira i disagree we just need to update the definition and raise the standards of what a well-kept militia should be

i need to defend my imbred family from evil government so where can i buy an m1a2 tank :mad:

[ringworm]

I could probably make a few calls & have a well armed Militia by the end of the day :)

Who are we goin after? *spits tobacco juice on floor* oops…and chin* :)

[Akira]

Say wha...

I should have been more clear. We need an army, for sure. But we far past the age when we need minutemen to grab there guns and meet at a battlefield. If the US were invaded, I don't think civilian weaponry would do a lot of good. If I understand the amendment, it is referencing the need, at the time, for common people to be ready to fight. That was how it worked then, that's not how it works now.

[Apollyon]

I should have been more clear. We need an army, for sure. But we far past the age when we need minutemen to grab there guns and meet at a battlefield. If the US were invaded, I don't think civilian weaponry would do a lot of good. If I understand the amendment, it is referencing the need, at the time, for common people to be ready to fight. That was how it worked then, that's not how it works now.

That's not the purpose of the 2nd amendment. That militia is there for the purpose of preventing the government from exerting complete martial authority on every aspect of our lives.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

[JohnXDoe]

i think it'll be a half effective tool for its intended purpose, but i don't see anything evil or sinister about it. until they implant GPS devices in us that can track our every move or put cameras in our homes and on every street corner, i feel ok. and personally i think its a good idea to have on record everyone who buys a firearm in a legit manner. of course this will create an even bigger black market for those wanting to purchase one "off the record". but like many things the government does for every "problem" they solve they create at least one or two to take its place. so there 'ya go....

[Amit]

That's not the purpose of the 2nd amendment. That militia is there for the purpose of preventing the government from exerting complete martial authority on every aspect of our lives.

then how do you propose to do that with dinky assault rifles, pistols, and shotguns when faced with main battle tanks, close ground support helicopters, and stealth bombers

[Iskandar]

then how do you propose to do that with dinky assault rifles, pistols, and shotguns when faced with main battle tanks, close ground support helicopters, and stealth bombers
Sheer numbers, I would think. 150 million or so rednecks with shotguns vs. the US government, I'd say that's even.

[Akira]

Sheer numbers, I would think. 150 million or so rednecks with shotguns vs. the US government, I'd say that's even.

Not really. Not when the government has assault vehicles.

[WhoDidTheElf]

Not really. Not when the government has assault vehicles.

Thing is though you need men to run those machines, and I would bet that at least half the army wouldn't go around bombing and destroying the population of America.

[Iskandar]

Not really. Not when the government has assault vehicles.
You're not accounting for other factors such as foreign assistance or intervention on both sides, territories and key points held, strategies, etc. It goes on. There is a lot to a war.

[Akira]

You're not accounting for other factors such as foreign assistance or intervention on both sides, territories and key points held, strategies, etc. It goes on. There is a lot to a war.

Either way, gun control is a very good thing in my mind.

[Iskandar]

Either way, gun control is a very good thing in my mind.
Why? There are better ways to combat crime.

[italic zero]

gun control hasn't been proven to be effective so i don't support it

[Akira]

Why? There are better ways to combat crime.

You make it sound like it is only possible to do one thing to combat crime.

[Iskandar]

You make it sound like it is only possible to do one thing to combat crime.
If there is, I hope it's not gun control.

People who own guns don't commit crimes with them just because they own guns.

[Jawaharal]

This may be annoying for me since I go hunting alot and own around 20 guns and always end up selling/buying new ones every year.

[ringworm]

Sheer numbers, I would think. 150 million or so rednecks with shotguns vs. the US government, I'd say that's even.

I LOL'd


but that's not a entirely false assessment :p


*is from The South :p

[Apollyon]

then how do you propose to do that with dinky assault rifles, pistols, and shotguns when faced with main battle tanks, close ground support helicopters, and stealth bombers

The Cuban revolution was won with guerilla tactics.

You can mold your own C4 in the bathtub in your house. It's not that hard to create devices that can combat armored vehicles and the such. All you have to do to stop an Abrahms tank is stick an explosive on the back of it where the armor is weakest. Sticky bombs are as practical today as they were 60 years ago because tank design has hardly changed aside from the on board weaponry.

Just because you may not be able to defend yourself against an armed combatant doesn't mean that millions of other Americans aren't able and willing given the right situation/opportunity.

[Iskandar]

I LOL'd


but that's not a entirely false assessment :p


*is from The South :p
Yep, it's very possible for a popular movement to overthrow a state. It's happened lots of times in history, for better or worse....

[Amit]

The Cuban revolution was won with guerilla tactics.

the cuban revolution didn't involve apache helicopters, stealth bombers, and predator killer drones

You can mold your own C4 in the bathtub in your house. It's not that hard to create devices that can combat armored vehicles and the such. All you have to do to stop an Abrahms tank is stick an explosive on the back of it where the armor is weakest. Sticky bombs are as practical today as they were 60 years ago because tank design has hardly changed aside from the on board weaponry.

so you're saying we should all be stockpiling plastic explosives along with assault rifles

Just because you may not be able to defend yourself against an armed combatant doesn't mean that millions of other Americans aren't able and willing given the right situation/opportunity.

americans must have a terrible government or are extremely politically lazy (makes sense if you look at how many people actually vote) because i don't ever remember countries like switzerland making up ridiculous provisions like this

why change something before it causes something bad to happen when you can wait until you can use totally sweet guerilla warfare tactix instead!

[Iskandar]

why change something before it causes something bad to happen when you can wait until you can use totally sweet guerilla warfare tactix instead!
Even if it's pretty improbable such measures would ever be needed, it's worth it to be able to use them.

[Amit]

is preserving measures to address such an improbable scenario worth it more than being able to catch criminals who abuse the same measures every day

[alaskansnollama]

Lol, the easy way to find out where everyone stands on this is to look at their political compass score.

[Iskandar]

is preserving measures to address such an improbable scenario worth it more than being able to catch criminals who abuse the same measures every day
To me, yes.

[Joey Hoser]

Gun control?

Pfft....

Guns are for pussies.

I'm working on a hydrogen powered cannon right now...



As for the ID cards... is there something I'm missing? What does it have that a driver's liscence doesn't?

[Apollyon]

To me, yes.

Same.

[coheneran]

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/12/358636.html

Lol about 20 million more NINs than living citizens.:lol:

God bless immigrant labour.

[the_green_bastard]

I really do question why people are not scared by this. Why bells are not going off in people's heads when their government is literally deciding to assign to all of them a bar code. This is the very definition of Orwellian, and it's all happening so smoothly. These identity cards, this idea that people must identify themselves to the state at all time, it demeans us all. It's about power. It's about control. It's about legislating into place a constant reminder that people are not their own - they are citizens of the state. They are property. And no one can ever distance themselves from all of this. I weep for the future. The spirit of freedom and resistance is dead.

You need to learn your place kiddo. You're nobody in here, and if you wish to use those terms, back them up with something valid yourself.

Start a poll and ask the gen pop of this forum what you're posting here and see how it goes for you.

I ask people to read the bill and ignore the spewage and that's unintelligent?

Explain that to me.

DBoon, shut the **** up! Learn my ****ing place? You arrogant ****. You need to learn YOUR God damned place as an equal human being! Say something intelligent and back it up or shut the **** up! I am so God damn sick of your spewing that "I shouldn't have to argue with you stupid kids!" Say something intelligent or stay quiet - I don't want to have to read your arrogant, small-minded parochialism here! This is a debate, for God's sake!

uhhh first of all, i was honestly inquiring about why it would affect me, so take your rant elsewhere. thanks.





ps you sound like a moron by the way.





:amaze:

It really makes you look like a moron when all of your refutals are typed poorly, punctuated poorly, completely ignore the point, and insult me. I outlined why it would affect you. We seem to agree that your previous statement was questioning how it affected you. I responded by saying that being disinterested in the erosion of your liberties with such short-sighted apathy is dangerous to the existence of a free and democratic state. Obviously I simply sound like a moron and you know best, so please, enlighten me. Do elaborate. I look forward to your response and my subsequent education. Best regards.

To be honest, having all your details in one big database, just means it's easier to find stuff about you.

Are these Internal Passports? Do they track your exact whereabouts? Do you need it to go for a piss in a public toilet? Is there gonna be some guy pointing a gun at you if you're not allowed to see your family in another state?

I've always been a supporter of ID cards

They don't track your exact whereabouts, the plastic cards in and of themselves. But the RFID chips do.

This is propaganda.

It doesn't matter whether it is factually accurate or not, it's still propaganda. I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but ID cards have been a huge issue here in the UK for the past few years, and the last I heard it was a 'when' as opposed to an 'if'.

Oh it's biased as ****. I've never seen an article more riddled with propaganda in my life. It's absolutely painful to read. But the facts are still in there with some discretion on the part of the reader.

I read through the Wiki on this, and it hardly sounds like the damning Stalinist idea it's made out to be in that article.

It actually sounds more like a thinly veiled anti-immigration measure made to appease voters in states where this is a hot-button issue.

Not that I don't think it's stupid. I just wish they'd be honest with us. They're not trying to fight terrorism with this bill, they just don't like Mexican illegals.

Or drug users. Or political dissidents.

Are you familiar with Ruby Ridge? Government abuse of power is a scary thing. It's easy to downplay something you don't directly have to deal with. Politicians are power-hungry people - they are attracted to that kind of job description, and they will abuse any power they are given, and they will over-extend rhetoric in defense of these policies in order to grab for the votes of people who believe in these kinds of easy-fix policies for exaggerated or fabricated dangers. Go and talk to a teenager spending 30 years in prison for possessing half a gram of cocaine.

What bothers me about the second amendment is that it is hundreds of years out of date. The US no longer needs a well-kept militia.

There always needs to be a well-kept militia. It preserves the balance of power. Never trust the government. Ever. Personal responsibility is an essential part of a free state. People cannot submit to a government and expect to remain safe, secure, and free. All men who favour freedom must protect their own freedom and the freedom of their enemies with equal fervour, otherwise they are practicing doublethink. Tyranny is not simply a thing of the past or of far-away nations.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

DBoon, shut the **** up! Learn my ****ing place? You arrogant ****. You need to learn YOUR God damned place as an equal human being! Say something intelligent and back it up or shut the **** up! I am so God damn sick of your spewing that "I shouldn't have to argue with you stupid kids!" Say something intelligent or stay quiet - I don't want to have to read your arrogant, small-minded parochialism here! This is a debate, for God's sake!




I don't know anything about why you two are arguing or who you, TGB, are, and already siding with dBoon because of the infantile way you misuse language. Please, for the sake of common sense and sanity, write in a polite, controlled manner?

Also not all human beings are equal pls

[Sucka MC]

move to another country then jesus christ

[coheneran]

Also not all human beings are equal pls

I beg to differ.

You don't gotta let me though.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I beg to differ.

You don't gotta let me though.

OK then a doctor and a rapist are drowning in a river

You know the doctor because he's your best friend and you know he's a really nice guy

You know the rapist because he raped your other best friend and then laughed about it in court and said he'd happily do it again and didn't regret a thing

You've only got time to save one ebfore they're both swept away


You telling me you'd let them both drown?

[Iskandar]

OK then a doctor and a rapist are drowning in a river

You know the doctor because he's your best friend and you know he's a really nice guy

You know the rapist because he raped your other best friend and then laughed about it in court and said he'd happily do it again and didn't regret a thing

You've only got time to save one ebfore they're both swept away


You telling me you'd let them both drown?
They became a doctor and rapist, respectively, because of their choices, not because one was inherently "better" than another.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

They became a doctor and rapist, respectively, because of their choices, not because one was inherently "better" than another.

Well one made better choices than the other

Neither chose to make good/bad choices

They made the choices they made




Determinism is irrelevant because regardless of potential they are clearly both human and they are clearly not equal

[Iskandar]

Well one made better choices than the other

Neither chose to make good/bad choices

They made the choices they made




Determinism is irrelevant because regardless of potential they are clearly both human and they are clearly not equal
I don't think you got my argument. It was certainly not meant to sound deterministic.

While both are presently, as others would judge them, unequal, both had the ability to choose what they became. That is equality.

So as adults I'd pick the doctor; but as newborns it'd be difficult to decide.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I don't think you got my argument. It was certainly not meant to sound deterministic.

While both are presently, as others would judge them, unequal, both had the ability to choose what they became. That is equality.

So as adults I'd pick the doctor; but as newborns it'd be difficult to decide.

So you accerpt that althoug the two humans were (physically) born equal (although this is unlikely) but in their present states are not equal, which is totally what i'm saying?

[Iskandar]

So you accerpt that althoug the two humans were (physically) born equal (although this is unlikely) but in their present states are not equal, which is totally what i'm saying?
We agree they are not presently equal, as defined by others. But were they at birth? They might have been born richer or poorer, or having/lacking various attributes, but if both had the ability to choose what to make of the circumstances they found themselves in, they were equal.