Bush hates Blind people

[DekWannaBFlea]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/12/blind.money/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Bush administration on Tuesday asked a federal court to overturn a lower-court ruling requiring the federal government redesign the nation's paper money to help blind people differentiate between denominations of bills.

Judge James Robertson of the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia ruled last month that the Treasury Department is violating the law by keeping all paper money the same size and feel, preventing blind people from distinguishing the amount.

Robertson, in a ruling on a suit by the American Council of the Blind, ordered the government to come up with a way to tell bills apart.

In its appeal, the Bush administration disagreed with Robertson's ruling that blind people were denied "meaningful access" to money by the same-sized bills because portable currency readers exist to help distinguish the bills. The government also said blind people can use credit and debit cards instead of cash.

The government also disagreed with Robertson's ruling that making changes would not impose an "undue burden." The government said that making any changes to the currency would interfere with mandates to guard against counterfeiting and would cost too much.

The American Council for the Blind has submitted several alternatives to the same-sized bills, including embossing, holes punched in the paper or using different-sized bills for different denominations.

[Apollyon]

Just another uninformed Conservative afraid of change. Except this one is the President.

[RNR]

Darnit. It's things like this that make it so very hard to support the republican party.

[Scythe404]

Just another uninformed Conservative afraid of change. Except this one is the President.

Git out yer tarbrush pardner, we's gonna go painting! We only needs the one brush!

[Light Fantastic]

But that is almost the definition of conservatism anyway so..

[griftadan]

i couldn't imagine a more non-issue to get worked up about.

[CardCheat]

To be fair, reworking the entire currency for a small minority of blind people would cost a lot of money and time. Although the idea about punching holes seemed like a good one. It might not even have to be federal, individual stores/buisnesses could do it themselves.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

If there are devices that tell the blind what bill it is, then why is this even an issue?

[Electronic Wolf]

If there are devices that tell the blind what bill it is, then why is this even an issue?

Our money looks retarded.

[-1up!-]

Our money looks retarded.

I don't expect blind people to whine about how American money looks retarded :p

[DBoons Ghost]

It looks retarded because of all the measures they must take to avoid counterfeiting.

It's not even the cause of paper money because if we stuck with coins it would be near impossible to prevent.

[Apollyon]

It looks retarded because of all the measures they must take to avoid counterfeiting.

It's not even the cause of paper money because if we stuck with coins it would be near impossible to prevent.

Has anyone stopped to think that if we were change over the format and production style of our currency, this would actually strike a massive blow to the counterfeiting ring? What good are billions of counterfeit dollars if they aren't a valid form of currency anymore?

[DBoons Ghost]

I don't disagree, but it's never gonna happen. What happens to the old currency? Who handles the transfers and turn ins? If I have a cigar box with a stash under my mattress as so many people do, I turn that in where? Do you know how long it would take to get the new form of currency in circulation? It would be very hard to do, not to mention cost the Mint millions to develop new casts and methods of avoiding counterfeiting, as well how ever much it costs to add the new machinery to the mints producing currency.

[ringworm]

good grief, some of you need to think before you fly off at the handle

just think about everything eles that needs to be changed & the amount of effort, time & money it would cost

Blind people would also have to know how much things cost, what piece of clothing they are holding etc etc etc

clothing tags, candybar wrappers, drinks, etc, you name it, it would have to be changed

not that I feel it doesnt, but dont be childish & retarded by saying Bush & his cronies hate blind people :/

[DBoons Ghost]

It's the thing to do these days. This isn't even thread worthy but whatever. When there is no good news to discuss, we can always bash Bush.

[Steerpike]

So we can produce highly stylized 20 dollar bills and accompany the release of them with laughably bad commercials to celebrate them... But we can't hand the workers at the printing facilities hole punchers?

Over-simplification? Yes. But I don't think such a switch would be as complicated as the administration makes it out to be. As an aside, blind people paying with credit and debit cards... I don't know many people who are in the habit of paying for small things with credit.

[WhoDidTheElf]

So we can produce highly stylized 20 dollar bills and accompany the release of them with laughably bad commercials to celebrate them... But we can't hand the workers at the printing facilities hole punchers?

Over-simplification? Yes. But I don't think such a switch would be as complicated as the administration makes it out to be. As an aside, blind people paying with credit and debit cards... I don't know many people who are in the habit of paying for small things with credit.

All my family and I use are ATM cards, easier than checks.

[PerpetualBurn]

This is something that should've been done years ago, like in other countries.

[ringworm]

So in other countries, EVERYTHING available to us is geared towards blind people as well?

Not just currency, but goods & supplies?

I highly doubt that


LOL, The End told me to learn plz in the Rep Comments & I am one of the few that actually thought before I made an ignorant comment, LOL, good one End

And no where did I say I was even against this idea of making everything availble for everyone, lol, I am for it but the ENTIRE process has to be thought out, not just the money

[PerpetualBurn]

Well that's not a strawman.

Nope.

Definitely no fallacy in that post.

Moron.

[Kurrpt]

different sized denominations would suck. I'm for the hole-punch method, if anything.

[Danger Bird]

That's rediculous, it would cost so much money to do that. Hole punching sounds great, and it's not even illegal if you just punch holes in the margin.

[PerpetualBurn]

So in other countries, EVERYTHING available to us is geared towards blind people as well?

Not just currency, but goods & supplies?

I highly doubt that


LOL, The End told me to learn plz in the Rep Comments & I am one of the few that actually thought before I made an ignorant comment, LOL, good one End

And no where did I say I was even against this idea of making everything availble for everyone, lol, I am for it but the ENTIRE process has to be thought out, not just the money

Well now that you've extended the post with that nice edit, I'll give a longer response.

Plenty of other countries manage to make simple differences in the currency. America should be no different. What the hell you were ranting about, I don't know.

And what do you mean "entire process"?

It's not easy to cater to absolutely everyone all the time. In fact, it's sometimes just not possible. But a simple change that could make the lives of a LOT of citizens a lot easier should be made.

[ringworm]

my point is, yes, currency should be geared for anyone to be able to recognize & use

I will try to make this simple since its not getting across

If they can differentiate the currency, then all goods you can purchase will have to be modified as well, did you get that?

then read DBoons post, are we to turn in all the older money?

what about foreign countries with stockpiles of our old money

this transition is a little more invovled than just changing the currency, but I still think something needs to be done, but its not a "simple change"

I hope this clears it up a little for ya since you downgraded to calling me a moron

[halfdeadhippo]

It's not that they hate blind people. It's that they haven't developed the miniature tracking devices so that they're cheap enough to be mass produced and placed in the new currency.
<_<
>_>

[PerpetualBurn]

my point is, yes, currency should be geared for anyone to be able to recognize & use

I will try to make this simple since its not getting across

If they can differentiate the currency, then all goods you can purchase will have to be modified as well, did you get that?

then read DBoons post, are we to turn in all the older money?

what about foreign countries with stockpiles of our old money

this transition is a little more invovled than just changing the currency, but I still think something needs to be done, but its not a "simple change"

I hope this clears it up a little for ya since you downgraded to calling me a moron

Wait...if you change the size of dollar bills...you'll have to modify all goods that can be purchased?

May I be so brazen as to ask why?

[semi]

It might not even have to be federal, individual stores/buisnesses could do it themselves.um wouldn't that kind of defeat the whole point? if punches are easily available and i can punch whatever hole i want why not punch the 1000 onto 1s.

[ringworm]

edit to PB

hmm, I guess I know exactly what I mean

wouldn't blind people also like to know what something costs as well?

last time I checked, there wasnt a whole lotta stuff in Target identified with Braille so they could distinguish a CD from a Coaster & how much it costs as well

thats my point, EVERYTHING needs to be changed to conform to them to make life easier

[semi]

not really. other countries have different sizes of notes and they don't have all that.

[ringworm]

well, doesnt seem fair to me, but changing ours would be a step in the right direction

but if you're arguing equality, you have to go all the way

[semi]

clearly you have to do it all in one go or nothing at all.
just changing things for blind people isn't going all the way either. there are other groups of people that are unequal.

[Electronic Wolf]

We need to restart America. Get back on the boats, people.

No slavery, though.

[PerpetualBurn]

edit to PB

hmm, I guess I know exactly what I mean

wouldn't blind people also like to know what something costs as well?

last time I checked, there wasnt a whole lotta stuff in Target identified with Braille so they could distinguish a CD from a Coaster & how much it costs as well

thats my point, EVERYTHING needs to be changed to conform to them to make life easier

Well there's lots of things you could change for disabled people, I'm sure.

It's quite irrelevant though. The money should be changed and whether or not you change a whole mess of other crap is a big list of other issues.

[Give me Beer]

Wow, you guys make a big deal about changing some bills. I mean, here in Europe we changed our entire monetary system a couple of years ago (I remember back when I payed in Belgian franks, that's what, 6 years ago?), and we're still alive. Changing the sizes of a couple of bills wouldn't be *that* hard or cost that much.

As for old bills and all that, you can phase those out.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Changing the size of bills sure would be a pain in the *** for the vending machine industry, or anything else where you insert bills

[White Riot!]

To be fair, reworking the entire currency for a small minority of blind people would cost a lot of money and time. Although the idea about punching holes seemed like a good one. It might not even have to be federal, individual stores/buisnesses could do it themselves.


money doesnt exist , its a concept. You dont "lose" any of it at all


obviously for the average american economic greed trumps compassion.....yet they launched a hellhole of a war..... go figure.

[Light Fantastic]

like i said in the other thread

of course you have infinite funds, you can print money!

[Akira]

edit to PB

hmm, I guess I know exactly what I mean

wouldn't blind people also like to know what something costs as well?

last time I checked, there wasnt a whole lotta stuff in Target identified with Braille so they could distinguish a CD from a Coaster & how much it costs as well

thats my point, EVERYTHING needs to be changed to conform to them to make life easier

You're completely missing it. Money is a government thing. Private businesses can do whatever they want, this argument is that the government legally has to make currency work for blind people.

[Akira]

like i said in the other thread

of course you have infinite funds, you can print money!

You're kidding, right?

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

obviously for the average american economic greed trumps compassion.....yet they launched a hellhole of a war..... go figure.

You call it economic greed; I call it being cost-effective

[White Riot!]

You call it economic greed; I call it being cost-effective

That creates a nice life. You work , you buy , you die.....

Life should not be an economic model

How can you assume that its cost effective? By giving blind people equal opportunities you could make them more self determined to work rather than sit on disability pensions?

once again , you are a greedy incompassionate pig

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Because there are already devices that exist and are being developed that tell blind people what a particular bill is

Is it really worth the cost of:

A) Developing some way to satisfy the ruling, as simply punching holes won't work (People may simply punch their own holes in the bill to have it be what ever they want. If they're willing to lie to a blind person about what bill they have, what's to stop them from simply marking a $1 bill as a 20?)

and B) Adapting all of our devices to accept a bill with said changes. Vending machines, self-checkout counters, etc, will all have to be refitted, assuming readers that can accept bills of different sizes actually exist. If not, then there's more money to spend on developing them.


...in order to make things easier for a marginal fraction of our population? I'd love to be able to throw the money at this situation in order to make it easier for blind people. But unfortunately, we only have so much money and we need to prioritize how it is spent. Simply because we are helping disabled people doesn't mean we can forget about the cost

[Apollyon]

assuming readers that can accept bills of different sizes actually exist. If not, then there's more money to spend on developing them.

:lol:

IF YOU CAN'T FIND IT AMERICA THEN IT DOESN'T EXIST

Almost every country in the world has different sized denominations so I'm pretty positive there are readers that accept bills of different sizes.

[White Riot!]

Because there are already devices that exist and are being developed that tell blind people what a particular bill is

Is it really worth the cost of:

A) Developing some way to satisfy the ruling, as simply punching holes won't work (People may simply punch their own holes in the bill to have it be what ever they want. If they're willing to lie to a blind person about what bill they have, what's to stop them from simply marking a $1 bill as a 20?)

and B) Adapting all of our devices to accept a bill with said changes. Vending machines, self-checkout counters, etc, will all have to be refitted, assuming readers that can accept bills of different sizes actually exist. If not, then there's more money to spend on developing them.


...in order to make things easier for a marginal fraction of our population? I'd love to be able to throw the money at this situation in order to make it easier for blind people. But unfortunately, we only have so much money and we need to prioritize how it is spent. Simply because we are helping disabled people doesn't mean we can forget about the cost

Are you stupid or just plain ignorant? Your government spends a lot more money doing stupid things rather than useful things. If you've ever seen or worked in a government department you'd realise how much money is thrown around and wasted haphazardly. You've been brainwashed completely.

Adapting all of our devices to accept a bill with said changes. Vending machines, self-checkout counters, etc, will all have to be refitted, assuming readers that can accept bills of different sizes actually exist. If not, then there's more money to spend on developing them.

sigh.....you dont understand economics do you? you've been brainwashed into thinking money magically disappears!

here is what happens. The private companies have to spend money to retrofit systems but that money will go to other businesses who will profit and spend that money....understand? its good because it is trade.

anyway dont be so daft , it comes down to your own silly little fears and misconceptions


wheelchaired people are a minority too , but guess what? the government installs disalbed access for them , did that cause countries economies to come crashing down? NO!

in the end after phasing in the new system , it doesnt work out any more expensive in reality.

have some godamn compassion and over look the fact that you are a greedy money is everything type existance

[Light Fantastic]

what's to stop them from simply marking a $1 bill as a 20?more holes = lower denomination

[superjoe]

edit to PB

hmm, I guess I know exactly what I mean

wouldn't blind people also like to know what something costs as well?

last time I checked, there wasnt a whole lotta stuff in Target identified with Braille so they could distinguish a CD from a Coaster & how much it costs as well

thats my point, EVERYTHING needs to be changed to conform to them to make life easier

I think it is just a tad more important to make distinguishable currency than put brail on price stickers at Target. Theres a difference between doing something sensible like fixing the currency, rather than something silly like youre suggesting. If youre blind, its going to be hard. Things wont always be perfect, but making the country's currency available to everyone is something that should have already been changed.

[White Riot!]

Let me get personal. If most of the other leading nations can do it , the why cant the worlds so called number superpower do it?

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Are you stupid or just plain ignorant? Your government spends a lot more money doing stupid things rather than useful things. If you've ever seen or worked in a government department you'd realise how much money is thrown around and wasted haphazardly. You've been brainwashed completely.

Except I never said I support all that wasting of my money either. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion

sigh.....you dont understand economics do you? you've been brainwashed into thinking money magically disappears!

here is what happens. The private companies have to spend money to retrofit systems but that money will go to other businesses who will profit and spend that money....understand? its good because it is trade.

How much money? Will this suddenly prompt blind people to spend more of their money? If so, how much of an increase in spending? Will it be more than the cost to develop and implement the changes?

These are some of the questions that need to be answered before we make any decisions

anyway dont be so daft , it comes down to your own silly little fears and misconceptions

But there already are devices on the market and in development that read the bill and tell the blind person what it is. Is it really necessary to spend our money on such redunancy?

wheelchaired people are a minority too, but guess what? the government installs disalbed access for them , did that cause countries economies to come crashing down? NO!

There's a big difference between installing a ramp onto City Hall and retrofitting thousands of machines to accept new money, lest the manufacturers and the business operating them be sued under the ADA

have some godamn compassion and over look the fact that you are a greedy money is everything type existance

I feel sorry for the disabled. My sister has Down Syndrome for crying out loud. But before we start spending our money on ANYTHING, even the benefit of the disabled, we should analyze the cost and number of people potentially benefitting before we decide to commit funds to it. You may think it's cold hearted and greedy, but I prefer to think of it as being realistic

[DekWannaBFlea]

The government spends billions of dollars on pork barrel spending (which benefits a small number of people) and yet you can't enable blind people to be more self-sufficient? You are sick.

[White Riot!]

Except I never said I support all that wasting of my money either. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion


I never said u support wasting of dollars. I am stating the money is available.


How much money? Will this suddenly prompt blind people to spend more of their money? If so, how much of an increase in spending? Will it be more than the cost to develop and implement the changes?

These are some of the questions that need to be answered before we make any decisions


so ....why did you say it would be too costly?




But there already are devices on the market and in development that read the bill and tell the blind person what it is. Is it really necessary to spend our money on such redunancy?


Paper notes are redundant , not to mention wasteful. upgrade to plastic notes and you'd save more money than you spent changing the currency. hit two birds with one stone. Im sure these reading devices arent cheap for the blind person and the government doesnt subside them either...


There's a big difference between installing a ramp onto City Hall and retrofitting thousands of machines to accept new money, lest the manufacturers and the business operating them be sued under the ADA


making thousands of ramps is comparable to retrofitting thousands of machines , the impetus is the same once you phase in , it costs you no more.


I feel sorry for the disabled. My sister has Down Syndrome for crying out loud. But before we start spending our money on ANYTHING, even the benefit of the disabled, we should analyze the cost and number of people potentially benefitting before we decide to commit funds to it. You may think it's cold hearted and greedy, but I prefer to think of it as being realistic

its not being realistic is called being CONSERVATIVE

[ringworm]

this argument is that the government legally has to make currency work for blind people.
i agree? everything i've said is in support & even going FURTHER?
I think it is just a tad more important to make distinguishable currency than put brail on price stickers at Target.
i agree, but, i also say one cant be done without the other in my eyes

[StrawberryFieldsForever]

I don't disagree, but it's never gonna happen. What happens to the old currency? Who handles the transfers and turn ins? If I have a cigar box with a stash under my mattress as so many people do, I turn that in where? Do you know how long it would take to get the new form of currency in circulation? It would be very hard to do, not to mention cost the Mint millions to develop new casts and methods of avoiding counterfeiting, as well how ever much it costs to add the new machinery to the mints producing currency.

Canada began changing its money a few years back and I believe just finished.

We're doing better than ever.

It'll take a few years of course, it won't happen all at once. And it's not like the old dollar bills would lose all their value. Canada has had two dollar coins for ten years now and there's still two dollar bills in circulation.

Perhaps you should look into the facts before you make all of these assumptions.

[Smokey D]

its not being realistic is called being CONSERVATIVE

It's not a swearword.


However, old money would continue to be legal tender. When it was deposited at banks, they would just send it in to the Federal Reserve which would replace it with new money. It's not difficult.

[Give me Beer]

A) Developing some way to satisfy the ruling, as simply punching holes won't work (People may simply punch their own holes in the bill to have it be what ever they want. If they're willing to lie to a blind person about what bill they have, what's to stop them from simply marking a $1 bill as a 20?)

and B) Adapting all of our devices to accept a bill with said changes. Vending machines, self-checkout counters, etc, will all have to be refitted, assuming readers that can accept bills of different sizes actually exist. If not, then there's more money to spend on developing them.

A) There's tons of ways you could mark a bill without people being able to copy it easily.

B) Yea, we did that over here in Europe 6 years ago, the Euro wasn't exactly the same size as the old currencies we used all over... it worked pretty well. I love it how you think that maybe readers wouldn't be able to accept bills of different sizes... ever even been outside of the USA?

There's new money being brought into circulation all the time, this is not going to cause an economic crash. Hell, the USA introduces new bills all the time.

[White Riot!]

It's not a swearword..

It is to me. Conservatives are crypto fascists mostly concerned with power

[Smokey D]

If you have no idea of what conservative actually means.

[The Digital Pimp]

Come on, it's not like blind people use money anyway.

[Akira]

It is to me. Conservatives are crypto fascists mostly concerned with power

Grow up.
I'm a liberal and it's jerks like you that make us all look bad.

[ringworm]

It is to me. Conservatives are crypto fascists mostly concerned with power

try not to insert your opinions as facts or definitions

[Apollyon]

try not to insert your opinions as facts or definitions

Don't worry, he's not.

[Hababi]

If you have no idea of what conservative actually means.

That reminds me of Bea's thread from a few months back...

There are many different forms of conservatism, just as there are many different forms of music.

Paleo, neo, etc.

[Akira]

I still want Light Fantastic to explain whether or not he thinks that the government can just print more money to pay for things.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

A) There's tons of ways you could mark a bill without people being able to copy it easily.

Yes, but how much would that cost? Would it be worth the cost to aid the visually impaired, considering there are devices already in existence that read the currency for them and tell them what the bill is?

B) Yea, we did that over here in Europe 6 years ago, the Euro wasn't exactly the same size as the old currencies we used all over... it worked pretty well. I love it how you think that maybe readers wouldn't be able to accept bills of different sizes... ever even been outside of the USA?

I want to know how much a change in currency is going to cost to develop and implement, and for people to stop and think about whether or not the number of people benefitting from it makes it worth that cost. Simply because it's for the benefit of the blind, that makes me a horrible human being

There's new money being brought into circulation all the time, this is not going to cause an economic crash. Hell, the USA introduces new bills all the time.

We don't the shape of it

I never said u support wasting of dollars. I am stating the money is available.

Last time I checked, we were in a massive deficit. We should stop and consider each and every expense and determine whether or not it's worth the cost

so ....why did you say it would be too costly?

Because I have no idea how much of an increase in spending amongst the blind this is going to be, but I'm going to assume that it won't be much to make it worth it

Paper notes are redundant , not to mention wasteful

How? The cotton used for the notes comes from scraps sold by jeans companies

upgrade to plastic notes and you'd save more money than you spent changing the currency. hit two birds with one stone. Im sure these reading devices arent cheap for the blind person and the government doesnt subside them either...

I'm no expert on plastic currency, so I'm not going to comment

making thousands of ramps is comparable to retrofitting thousands of machines , the impetus is the same once you phase in , it costs you no more.

I'd be willing to bet there are more vending machines and self check out stations than government buildings in the US

its not being realistic is called being FISCALLY CONSERVATIVE

Fix'd

[viscious]

I'd be willing to bet there are more vending machines and self check out stations than government buildings in the US


When they introduced the new twenty, what do you think happened? Surely the scanner couldn't recognize the new colors and change in size of the big *** 20 in the corner. Oh wait, I didn't hear any complains about those. Difference sizes would be no different, vending machines usually only take $1s anyways, that'd be one size.