Afghani Liberation

[coheneran]

Are the people living under the Taliban at such an unsurpassable disadvantage that they cannot initiate liberation themselves?

[lunchforthesky]

What would the unsurpassable disadvantage be?

[coheneran]

Some would say, authoritarian, sadistic, fundamentalist rule. I don't know how bad the Taliban really are (since all sources are highly unreliable), but people as a whole have overcome some very terrible things without external control (though sometimes support), so it's just a question I'm posing.

[lunchforthesky]

Oh right so the question is do the Afghan people have the will or the means to overthrow the Taliban in certain areas? How much do they control at the moment.

[Africa]

Whose got the bombs.

[coheneran]

Not at all. A people's liberation doesn't need to be armed (though it helps), it just needs desire.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

If you're fighting a government who is armed, you're going to have to be armed

[lunchforthesky]

I think that while the Taliban isn't exactly popular, neither is Britian and America. Afghans dont want fundamentalist rule but neither do they want a liberal democracy and to be under the thumb of the west. There is widespread sympathy for a lot a ex-Taliban policies for example, women being inferior to men while they may not wish to take to such an extreme their is a feeling the women are too free under the new regime.

Additionally they do not at all want to become a puppet of the west and resistance against the taliban is at least supporting Afghan people rather than foreigners who have essentially occupied their country. I think that if we are to remove any trace of the Taliban then the onus is on us seen as how we initiated their removal. Once they have been fully removed, power can be shifted to the native forces who can impose the government they see fit, obviously this is unlikely with Bush wanting to impose his version of "freedom" and "democracy" at all turns.

[coheneran]

But if people want what the Taliban offers, how can you get rid of them by force? No matter how many official Taliban members you kill, more will always come. It's a social liberation, not a military one. Military liberation can only be successful if the people are ready for it, if they have undergone a change in consciousness.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Clearly attempts at internal liberation were made; the NA (y'know, the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan) had been trying since the soviets were fought off, in a way. We suddenly had a vested interest in helping them out (in a big way), and so fu'ck, that's what we did. If it was then left to the NA to establish some description of democratic government all'd be pretty dandy i guess.

[Africa]

I think the bottom line is, those people over there are batshit crazy with batshit crazy theocracies, they're just plain batshit crazy, I say grab them by the balls, stamp out this batshit craziness, end their nuclear programs, save the jews, go home after setting up a subtle colony.

[lunchforthesky]

I think that the majority didn't want the extremity of the Taliban and the NA should of been given more support and allowed to establish their rule, which could have paved the way for democracy. The Afghan people would of far readily accepted this over western rule.

[coheneran]

I think the bottom line is, those people over there are batshit crazy with batshit crazy theocracies, they're just plain batshit crazy, I say grab them by the balls, stamp out this batshit craziness, end their nuclear programs, save the jews, go home after setting up a subtle colony.

I lolled hard at this. Rep++.

[griftadan]

they're was a rebellion element in the north (the northern alliance). other than that no i don't beleive so.

[Smokey D]

Most Afghans are happy with the Western presence, and there are still more than 60% of the population who believe their country is going in the right direction. I think it was okay to liberate the place. It's a pity the infrastructure is so fried by 29 years of war the only profitable crop is opium poppy.

[Akira]

Most Afghans are happy with the Western presence, and there are still more than 60% of the population who believe their country is going in the right direction. I think it was okay to liberate the place. It's a pity the infrastructure is so fried by 29 years of war the only profitable crop is opium poppy.

But the point is the not whether or not the US invasion was justified. The Taliban is resurging.

[Smokey D]

Er, I'm pretty sure what applied 5 years ago still applies today.

[Akira]

Er, I'm pretty sure what applied 5 years ago still applies today.

When you said it was okay to liberate the place you were looking at it differently. Whatever.

I think the liberation was okay, sadly it could definitely be going better.

[coheneran]

Maybe the Taliban are resurging because they have popular support.

[Smokey D]

They do in Kandahar, but that's pretty much it.

[coheneran]

We should just give every non-Talibani a gun and see who they really support.

[semi]

i'm not in the taliban honest!! here have some guns.

[coheneran]

Actually, let's do something even better! Let's give any organisation opposed to the Taliban lots of money, guns, intelligence and training, so they can fight them for us.

Oh shi

[Mr. Ron]

Not at all. A people's liberation doesn't need to be armed (though it helps), it just needs desire.

Uh....yes they do.


"Hey you big bad government! Let us live freely!"



"No."



"ooookkkk.... :["

[coheneran]

Uh....yes they do.


"Hey you big bad government! Let us live freely!"



"No."



"ooookkkk.... :["

If the people have the will and desire for freedom, the state can do nothing about it. They cannot arrest or execute everyone. Hence the saying, "The people should not be afraid of the government, the government should be afraid of the people."

I know people don't like it when I post lyrics, but oh well:

"there're so few wars of people's liberation
for the people have so seldom risen; only the armed faction
listen, the armed faction lies
they recreate the state through their action
when the people rise
it is not they, but the state, which dies"

[Smokey D]

If the people have the will and desire for freedom, the state can do nothing about it. They cannot arrest or execute everyone. Hence the saying, "The people should not be afraid of the government, the government should be afraid of the people."


You clearly aren't familiar with the likes of Joseph Stalin.

[Mr. Ron]

If the people have the will and desire for freedom, the state can do nothing about it. They cannot arrest or execute everyone. Hence the saying, "The people should not be afraid of the government, the government should be afraid of the people."

I know people don't like it when I post lyrics, but oh well:

"there're so few wars of people's liberation
for the people have so seldom risen; only the armed faction
listen, the armed faction lies
they recreate the state through their action
when the people rise
it is not they, but the state, which dies"


Sure they can. It's called martial law.

[coheneran]

You clearly aren't familiar with the likes of Joseph Stalin.

Lol, good point.

I think what may have happened there is that constant propaganda about how great it was that they already had their revolution, along with making agitators disappear and using fear and distrust tactics kept most people thinking that they don't need another revolution and it will all correct itself.

In Spain, there were very little weapons, I think something like enough for 1 out of every 3 or 4 fighters, but they held out pretty well considering.

[Mr. Ron]

Out of every major revolution for freedom, the vast majority were armed conflicts. This is because words can only do so much.

[Smokey D]

Lol, good point.

I think what may have happened there is that constant propaganda about how great it was that they already had their revolution, along with making agitators disappear and using fear and distrust tactics kept most people thinking that they don't need another revolution and it will all correct itself.

When you have a patent disregard for human life and near absolute control over the military, it doesn't matter how well spirited your resistence is, you're still going to win if it doesn't fight back. Revolutions are successful when the government is unwilling, for whatever reason, to kill large numbers of its citizens. People like Stalin don't have any such compunctions.