The Weather Report

[Kage]

So any Weather Report fans? I was introduced to their music by newspaper teacher who had the opportunity to interview them back in the 70s when Houston had a decent underground jazz scene. So I got the album Mysterious Traveller and it's fantastic. Thinking about going backwards from here and discovering their more abstract music.

[AmericanWeiner]

gotta hear birdland and teen town at the very least man

[joshmay]

im workin on gettin their discography, my favorite albums are WEATHER REPORT, BLACK MARKET, and HEAVY WEATHER... good band in all its incarnations

[Kage]

gotta hear birdland and teen town at the very least man

Will do.

im workin on gettin their discography, my favorite albums are WEATHER REPORT, BLACK MARKET, and HEAVY WEATHER... good band in all its incarnations
Great! Good to hear that I'm in for a long adventure collecting more of their albums if most/all of them are good.

[pixiesfanyo]

Pretty bad band acutally.

[Kage]

Why?

[pixiesfanyo]

Just shitty fusion.

[Krabsworth]

I have to agree.

[fingers mccoy]

teen town is suuuuuch a cool track

[Caleb3221]

Weather report has some excellent stuff, and I think they're an overall great band. They have a few tunes that I'm not a fan of, but their good stuff is very good.

[Surtr]

Our school Jazz Band is playing Birdland :)

[AmericanWeiner]

yeah I've got a lead sheet I might propose it

I can do the harmonic intro but I doubt the bassist can so it'd be sweet

[bubinga5]

Pretty bad band acutally.What a stupid thing to say...There prob some of the most talented musicians who have lived. Just because you dont like Jazz Fusion.I dont like the Pixies but i wouldnt say they were a bad band. Concerning talent,they certainly dont touch Joe Zawinal Jaco Pastorious and Wayne Shorter....

[GhostNote]

Just poopty fusion.

Yes, a ****in' great contribution :rolleyes:

"poopty fusion" - seriously man, grow up a little. The musicians in Weather Report are some of the greatest of all time. I really couldn't care less if you don't like the band, but if you're going to express that at least give a decent, eduacated answer.


-GN

[ImusInTheMorning]

jazz sucks

[skingle]

Heavy Weather is their best IMO.

[traveller]

i love weather report. i find that its one of those bands were either you dig their stuff or you hate it. i guess i'm lucky enough to like it. can you buy any weather report dvd's? cause i would like some footage

[Zebra]

I never understood the hype behind Heavy Weather. Songs like Teen Town and Rumba Mama just show off the musicicans talents as indivisuals rather then a cohesive band. The music is also kind of boring, The Juggler and A Remark You Made are two dull tracks that come to mind.

That being said Mysterious Traveller is where it's at. But in the end I'd rather listen to Return to Forever or Herbie Hancock over Weather Report anyday.

[halfdeadhippo]

I never understood the hype behind Heavy Weather. Songs like Teen Town and Rumba Mama just show off the musicicans talents as indivisuals rather then a cohesive band. The music is also kind of boring, The Juggler and A Remark You Made are two dull tracks that come to mind.

That being said Mysterious Traveller is where it's at. But in the end I'd rather listen to Return to Forever or Herbie Hancock over Weather Report anyday.I agree with this, though I might add that Live in Tokyo and 8:30 are pretty cool as well.

[pixiesfanyo]

Yes, a ****in' great contribution :rolleyes:

"poopty fusion" - seriously man, grow up a little. The musicians in Weather Report are some of the greatest of all time. I really couldn't care less if you don't like the band, but if you're going to express that at least give a decent, eduacated answer.


-GN

They're a bad version of fusion.

They have they're moments, but when you compare their albums to something like "Return to Forever" it's just horrendous in comparsion.

thx 4gettin' emotional dough.

[Caleb3221]

I like weather report, and I'd call them poopty fusion too.
EDIT: And I'll readily admit there's plenty of fusion I like a whole lot more than weather report; I can't say I really ever listen to them very often. But most of their stuff is at least not bad, and some of their songs are quite cool.

[GhostNote]

They're a bad version of fusion.

They have they're moments, but when you compare their albums to something like "Return to Forever" it's just horrendous in comparsion.

thx 4gettin' emotional dough.

I stick with what i said. And you still haven't said anything about why they're a "bad version of fusion".


-GN

[pixiesfanyo]

It's poorly done.

Other bands do it better.

I mean, what else do you need me too say?

It's bad sounding. It's what I think of when I hear people making fun of jazz for being self indulgent and repetitive. At least Mahavishnu knew how to rock.

[GhostNote]

What else do i need you to say? Maybe something along the lines of "...in my opinion".


-GN

[knox]

What else do i need you to say? Maybe something along the lines of "...in my opinion".


-GN

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who's opinion it is.

[GhostNote]

True, but it'd be good for someone to say so instead of writing things which seem like they're stating fact.


-GN

[fingers mccoy]

why would you not believe your opinion is correct

surely you picked the opinion that you thought was correct

[Rams]

They have some great stuff, but a lot of their catalog is crappy fusion. I have all their albums and some live albums.

[bubinga5]

It's poorly done.

Other bands do it better.

I mean, what else do you need me too say?

It's bad sounding. It's what I think of when I hear people making fun of jazz for being self indulgent and repetitive. At least Mahavishnu knew how to rock.I think your taking your dislike for jazz fusion and calling it bad music because you dont like it. Ask most Jazz Fusion fans and they wil tell you that this is a very cohesive band!!!(that was the funniest thing i have heard so far) And poorly done!!:confused: im wondering now, if you know anything about playing and arranging music

As ive said im not a huge fusion fan but i recognise greatness when i hear it...

The word 'subjective' springs to mind.

And Rams if you think its 'crappy fusion' why have you got all of there albums...Bizzare

[joshmay]

okay listen to the vocals/drums "samba" on the second side of the "black market" album and tell me that ain't badass!

[Rams]

And Rams if you think its 'crappy fusion' why have you got all of there albums...Bizzare

You don't read very well. Some of it is amazing, some of it is crappy like Heavy Weather.

[pixiesfanyo]

I think your taking your dislike for jazz fusion and calling it bad music because you dont like it. Ask most Jazz Fusion fans and they wil tell you that this is a very cohesive band!!!(that was the funniest thing i have heard so far) And poorly done!!:confused: im wondering now, if you know anything about playing and arranging music

As ive said im not a huge fusion fan but i recognise greatness when i hear it...

The word 'subjective' springs to mind.

And Rams if you think its 'crappy fusion' why have you got all of there albums...Bizzare

No, I like Jazz Fusion.

Just because I don't like Weather Report doesn't make me stupid.

Please leave.

[Caleb3221]

Seriously, where is this weather report fanboyism coming from? It's OK not to like the same music-Weather Report is not necessarily a "great band", and there are a lot of people who very much enjoy and are very well versed in fusion who don't like them. Why is it necessary for everyone to agree with you? Taste in music is subjective(And you question HIS knowledge of playing and arranging music-I think you've just displayed one of the most basic misunderstandings of music I've ever seen).

[Chameleon]

WR are ok... not their biggest fan. I only have Heavy Weather and some select tracks from Black Market, and some live tracks.

Birdland is genius, Teen Town is atonal nonsense that is only worth listening to to hear Jaco in his prime... in my opinion.

Barbary Coast, The Chicken are probably two of my other favourite tracks. I guess Jaco was the guy I really listened to them for.

[Kage]

I'll bet they were a better live force than they are on record.

[bubinga5]

I recognise and respect peoples opinion. I just think its wrong to say a band who have obvious talent, is a 'bad band' and 'poorly done'. Of course you guys opinions matter and for my slightly aggressive posts i appologise(was having a bad day):o

[Chameleon]

Actually, individual talent doesn't have that much to do with it. A band can still be a "bad band" because they don't play well together.

I'm not saying I think this applies to WR (I just think some of their stuff is plain dull), but it's something that should be observed. And since there are less standard definitions of a "good band" than there are of a good pianist or drummer, it makes it a little more subjective.

[fingers mccoy]

teen town is atonal nonsense?

it's like incredibly tuneful and fairly diatonic

[Chameleon]

:lol: Is that a joke?

I haven't seen you around, so maybe I just don't "get" your humour, but the chords for Teen Town are basically C13, A13, F13, D13 and the melody is fairly atonal.

What definition of diatonic are you talking about? The one that says "Not in any way diatonic."?

[fingers mccoy]

hmmmm i dont remember it being like that

sure as hell not atonal tho

is that not just moving in parallel sixths

[Chameleon]

No, that's pretty atonal to be honest.

It's not just moving in parallel sixths, the very ESSENCE of Teen Town is its atonality. It's filled with strange harmony and odd phrases, which produce a pretty haunting sound like in the original. Even in the main bass melody, it's pretty weird.

Are we definitely talking about the same song? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSklfEHyF1g

[fingers mccoy]

it's not atonal

strange harmony and odd phrases isn't atonal

and there aren't too many odd phrases

and the harmony is pretty much just sequencing

the rhythm is very distinct, the bass melody leads naturally to E

[Chameleon]

Definition of atonal: "Music which does not exhibit the traditional hierarchy of chord progressions and key signatures."

It's atonal. Atonal doesn't mean "free music" or music concreté or anything as 'out there' as that.

[Caleb3221]

I'm relativley sure teen town is atonal by most definitions out there. That's not really a bad thing in itlself, much modern music is atonal. E:Oops, didn't refresh before posting

I enjoy teen town despite its atonality in small doses. It's got a sort of cool melody, groove, and vibe. Hearing it from every damn "funk" or "jazz" influenced bassist I've ever jammed with hasn't helped it in my ears though.

[fingers mccoy]

where did you get that definition

i would not call it atonal, more pantonal. It does follow key signatures, what it does is modulate in a sequenced fashion, and then at a couple of points fall into fairly long diatonic sections.

and i do love atonal music caleb

[Chameleon]

What do you mean "Where did I get that definition..."? Take your pick, wikipedia, dictionary.com, etc etc.

If I looked it up in my Oxford English i'm sure there'd be a definition similar to any you get from Google.

I don't care how sequenced the modulation is, the fact that each new chord basically stems from a different key signature is enough for me. The general sound is very atonal to my ears. I'm sure there are more picky definitions about atonality meaning there are NO key centres, but this is a pretty standard definition which I have shown you, and TT fits this definition.


And if it happens to mean anything to you (not that I think it would), everybody who i've played Teen Town to, first thought it was pretty nasty in terms of harmony.

[Caleb3221]

fingers-that is the literal music definition of atonality-not adhering to classical tonal heirarchies. There is not a particularly strong tonic that the tonality of the rest of the song is based on, there is not a very strong tonality in general-therefore it is atonal.

[CaptainWaits]

I'm not a fan. The only member that I like away from that bands is Jaco. They're just not my type of jazz :(

[traveller]

i can see this thread goin in the same direction as the 'Pat Metheny Sucks' thread. Its just gonna end up in a huge catfight between the WR fans and the WR haters. like i said in my previous post, its one of those bands where you dig them or you dont and the reasons will differ for every person.

[fingers mccoy]

there is a very strong tonality towards E in teen town tho

but it doesnt really matter, there are definitely some sections that dont really settle anywhere

it's not literally literally atonal tho, not in the most pedantic sense

[Chameleon]

Shut the **** up, i'm sick of this. I don't care how "pedantic" you want to be, it doesn't make your definition more "accurate" than the dictionary definition.

End of story.

[fingers mccoy]

ok look man i'm sorry if this pisses you off but it simply isn't atonal

I don't care how sequenced the modulation is, the fact that each new chord basically stems from a different key signature is enough for me.

if you dont care how sequenced the modulation is then you simply dont care about having the right definition

there is tonality

this is like saying a circle of fifths is atonal or something jesus christ

[Chameleon]

I gave you a dictionary definition, you don't want to accept that. That's your problem, not mine.

You didn't even find the harmony "strange" at first, and it's clearly fairly weird, so I don't even know why you're arguing this.

[fingers mccoy]

it's clearly not strange it's a very ordinary sequence that fits into a mode of limited transposition and is quite a common feature of messiaen's music which has been around for 50 years

and the dictionary definition is not particularly wrong it's just simplistic, and doesnt apply to this piece of music

[Chameleon]

No, it's very specific. YOU'RE definition is just too specific.

Explain to me in more detail, how that chord progression is "ordinary", and I want you to list me 3 examples of tracks that I can download, featuring the chord progression. And we're not talking about C7, A7, F7, D7. They're all 13 chords, which are fairly dissonant in themselves.

[fingers mccoy]

i dunno about that exact chord progression but the idea of sequencing in sixths or thirds is quite prevalent in messaien's music, britten's music, and a lot of bebop

I will admit that it is fairly strange, but it definitely has a tonality

how can you argue with that section that is like

E, G#, B, C#-----A, C#, E, F#--------

it's certainly not diatonic for the whole thing but it's not atonal

if you just look at the word you can see it's not atonal, you cant listen to this music and not hear a strong resolution surely

[Chameleon]

Listen, i've given you a definition. You don't accept it, that's YOUR PROBLEM.

If I was teaching music in a classroom, I can't very well say "Ok, this is what 'the man' WANTS you to think, but here's my definition of atonal".

And it has its pleasant moments. But the main theme, and those chords are incredibly dissonant, to the point where they are atonal.

Have you even CONSIDERED that your definition is one you've generated in your own mind?

Why can't you just accept that I have a perfectly reasonable definition of the word? You've already talked bullshit in this thread with your "fairly diatonic", and "parallel 6ths" crap, neither of which was remotely accurate.

[fingers mccoy]

but the chord progression clearly implies parallel sixths does it not

i'm just saying that this doesnt fit in with the definition you've given

by asking you where you got the definition i meant to imply that you were misrepresenting it because it was simplistically worded

[alaskansnollama]

Our school Jazz Band is playing Birdland :)

I play Alto Sax in addition to guitar, and the solo for Birdland was possibly the most fun I've ever had improving. Its an easy as hell chord progression to mess around with and a fun song to play in the first place.

I haven't heard an extensive amount of Weather Report, but what I have heard isn't too bad.

Lightning, what do you play?

[Chameleon]

but the chord progression clearly implies parallel sixths does it not

Explain why you think this. I want a pretty detailed answer too.

by asking you where you got the definition i meant to imply that you were misrepresenting it because it was simplistically worded

Again, you're refusing to acknowledge the possibility that your definition is "too specific".

[Caleb3221]

Messiaen and much modern jazz and bebop are classic examples of atonality. You are treating atonality as if it's some terrible thing that means the song never resolves or can't sound natural or something. That's just not true-atonality is a very specific musical term that applies to every sort of music, including this one. A whole lot of modern music is atonal(even earlier than 50 years ago by a long shot).

[fingers mccoy]

i'm not treating it as a terrible thing

much modern jazz is atonal, not much bebop

messiaen is only atonal in his absolute serialism

not too much of his stuff is atonal

again caleb i love atonal music but if there is a resolution, it's not atonal

to chameleon:

there is a sixth interval between each of those chords and they are all the same chord

i understand the voicings will most likely be different but in essence the distance between the chords are all sixths one after the other

also i refuse to accept that suggestion, because i think my definition is perfectly concise and actually addresses what the word atonal implies etymologically and in popular use

[Chameleon]

i'm not treating it as a terrible thing

much modern jazz is atonal, not much bebop

messiaen is only atonal in his absolute serialism

not too much of his stuff is atonal

again caleb i love atonal music but if there is a resolution, it's not atonal

to chameleon:

there is a sixth interval between each of those chords and they are all the same chord

i understand the voicings will most likely be different but in essence the distance between the chords are all sixths one after the other

also i refuse to accept that suggestion, because i think my definition is perfectly concise and actually addresses what the word atonal implies etymologically and in popular use


Ok, ok, I admit, you're word is clearly more valuable than that of the dictionary. One problem though... what happens if I want to look up a word in the future? Obviously the dictionary can't be trusted, so can you give me your cell number? I'll just give you a buzz whenever i'm in any doubt.

As for "in popular use". You're thus far the only person who's commented who believes that Teen Town is NOT atonal. So I think you spend too much time talking to yourself about musical terms in your bedroom, instead of talking to real people.

Again, STILL coming down to you being unable to accept the dictionary's word. What's up with that?

[fingers mccoy]

and you're only going by the definition offered by the lexicographer rather than getting more intellectually involved and looking at it etymologically, theoretically, etc.

That definition is simplistic. If you look on the wikipedia article, half of it is dedicated to showing you that it is vague, simplistic, and frequently debated.

And that still doesnt debate my assertion that TEEN TOWN DOES NOT EVEN FIT INTO THAT DEFINITION.

That chord sequence does not take up the whole piece, and there is frequent heavily consonant resolution, as well as several diatonic sections.

Look man I didn't want this to be insulting and this is obviously all my opinion so can you not compare me to some bedroom faux-academic because I don't want to spend half a discussion defending myself and half of it defending my ideas.

BTW by popular use i didnt mean:

the opinions of two people in a jazz forum pertaining to one piece of music
the opinions of two people in a jazz forum pertaining to logical inferences drawn from etymology
the opinions of two people in a jazz forum pertaining to the theory and application of atonality in music from webern and berg onwards

what i meant was:

the collation of opinions from various people of authority on the subject
the collation of musical information extracted from the pieces listed on wikipedia under 'atonal music'
the collation of theoretical and algorithmic ideas employed in atonal compositional techniques as set down in writing by various innovative composers

[We No Speak]

Whoa,

I started reading this post about Weather Report and it sort of went sideways a little, eh?

I must admit though that "poopty" is one description of Fusion I've never heard. In fact, I can't think of anything being called poopty, but I sure do like the sound of it.

It can be used for so many things, like, let's see, hmmm, oh - how about "this thread became poopty"?

Just kidding folks! Let's play nice.

Regardless of your taste for Weather Report, I'll bet that most musicians we listen to now, were highly influence by the band. They were and still are unique in their compositional and improvisational approach to music.

Zawinul and Shorter were already two of Jazz's most respected composers before they ever got together to form Weather Report. Zawinul virtually co-composed all the "Silent Way - Bitches Brew" material that changed the world of Jazz and created Fusion.

Having seen Weather Report every year since 1972, I'd have to say from personal experience, they could do it all. From beautiful ballads, deep heavy grooves, powerful melodies, and sheer talent at the edge of creativity.

Let's just simplify it - Weather Report is/was "Weather Report" for a reason. They were one of America's great musical legends and deserve the utmost respect.

Anyone that liked Weather Report really should check out the new Scott Kinsey Cd Kinestetics. On the surface he might sound like Zawinul, but his compositional style is pretty intense and if you see him live, he can really turn it on.

Rick Calic
http://www.jazzrockworld.com

[joshmay]

"this thread became poopty"

Rick Calic
http://www.jazzrockworld.com




good call...haha the last two pages have almost split my sides open, im crackin up here!

[Rowan S]

I found Badia Boogie Woogie a simply amaing track.. But i have to agree with some of you, some of there stuff isnt that great.. There stuff with jaco was pretty cool. It added something..

Teentown is a brilliant track, espeically if your a bass player. The one on Youtube can be pretty inspiring.

Badia Boogie Woogie is just fantastic. Id love to hear more stuff like that. The atmosphere and feeling is just incredibly, so abstract

Rowan