having trouble with swung time at fast tempos

[Corkofski]

shall i answer my own thread and practise more, or any tips?

[Jezen]

After a while it doesn't swing that much.

[DxRocker]

Well... if it doesn't "swing" then it means there is something wrong with the timing of the groove.

It's the details that make the feel. So if you are going for the swung feel, you're gonna have to get that timing down to perfection - especially at faster tempo's.

So my tip would be, if you find yourself playing at tempo X, and you don't manage to make it feel like it's supposed to... take it down a couple of bpm and get that tempo grooving first. Gradually speed up without loosing that feel.

[billdrum]

Keep in mind that you don't always have to do the full swing time pattern......quarter notes will suffice most of the time with the "uhs" thrown in occasionally.

[NickC]

Are you using the open close technique? Or something else?

[Jezen]

By my previous comment, I mean you don't think of the ride pattern in the same way just faster. You think of it in a different way. You stop thinking from the one and start thinking from the two. Trust me, i'm making sense.

Dx your reply sounds like a real generic mx style response tbh. Billdrum's reply is very good.

Also, playing fast swing has nothing to do with open/close technique. There's no need to analyze a particular hand motion into definite scientifics just to play a fast swing ride pattern.

[DxRocker]

Dx your reply sounds like a real generic mx style response tbh. Billdrum's reply is very good.


You say that like it is a bad thing...

I don't care what the generic response is.
I for one do not think that "leaving out notes" because you can't play them at that tempo is a solution to this guy's problem.

If you can't get your feel right at 160 bpm, but you can at 145 bpm... what does that tell you?

For me personally - I would not be satisfied by leaving out some notes and calling it a day.

Although, if I would be required to play it at that tempo right away - and thus not be given time to practice it into more detail - then yes, leaving out some notes would be a good temporary answer, until you get the time to practice that stuff till you get it right.

[Jezen]

You're absolutely right there. You don't leave out the skip notes because you can't play them that fast. You only leave those notes out when playing fast swing because in general, it's contextually correct.

[raz0r]

You're absolutely right there. You don't leave out the skip notes because you can't play them that fast. You only leave those notes out when playing fast swing because in general, it's contextually correct.

So, because drummers have been sloppy in the past, it's OK to copy them?

Why don't we all go out and buy Aheads, tilt our toms to an 80" angle and develop sloppy foot technique while we're at it?

[billdrum]

Its not sloppy....jazz is improvisatory by nature. The idea that you have to play a specific pattern all of the time is against the very nature of jazz. Any jazz drummer will tell you its the quarter note that's most important, and drummers throughout history, great ones to average ones, will vary the ride cymbal line extensively.

That being said, the fact that you CAN'T play them is no excuse.....you should be ABLE to play the pattern correctly before you can vary from it.

[DxRocker]

The idea that you have to play a specific pattern all of the time is against the very nature of jazz.

That's most certainly true. But it's not an excuse to not being able to :-)
Being able to will only help your "free style" jazz in the end.


That being said, the fact that you CAN'T play them is no excuse.....you should be ABLE to play the pattern correctly before you can vary from it.

See? :chug:

[Josiah]

^Bill knows his stuff.


Geez these kids..

Also, playing fast swing has nothing to do with open/close technique. There's no need to analyze a particular hand motion into definite scientifics just to play a fast swing ride pattern.

Right... technique doesnt' change with tempo, why don't you give us a lil audio clip or video clip of you playing fast swing?
Lets say, half note equal = 110


DX really hit the nail with his first post -

Vinnie C. and Steve Smith used to take 2 rides in a room for hours and see who could play swing patterns faster, challenging each other to go faster and faster.

Speed comes from control, and controlled relaxedness in the limbs. With the faster swing stuff, it's about rebound. Generally at the higher tempos you are getting 3+ notes per wrist movement.

You want to play it faster, you are going to have to push the tempos on a daily basis. That doesn't mean strain the notes out, but force yourself to handle the tempos while remaining relaxed and not rigid. It takes a lot of time and paitence.


Also you gotta develop EVERYTHING along with it. Having a sickly fast ride hand won't do much if you can't get the left hand working with it, or the feet.


There's an excerise i give student, you can write it out. It's very simple.Take your basic ride pattern, then play ghost ntoes on the quarters, then 8ths, then upbeat 8ths, etc all the single value positions.
Then do the same except the first 8 ths, so ( 1 tu tu 2 ...) then the middle (1 tu tu 2 ...) and then the 3rd ( 1 tu tu 2 tu...)

That gives you all the possible 8th note snare placements for the snare against the ride, write em out and then play through each. Then also put the kick ont hose same notes.
Then go back again and diddle the notes on the snare, the single ones anyway.

Cycle through them all pushing the tempos, but maintaining note values and SWING.


As stated this is not how you PLAY jazz. This is an excerise to improve your ABBILITY to you play. When you go and play jazz, obviouslly creative forces will change what you play. This kind of stuff gives yout he abbility to play anything you want, wich is in the end what allows for the most amount of creativity.

AND



If it ain't swinging, it's not the tempo, it's the player

[billdrum]

Well, Corkofski is getting his money's worth today. Nice posts all.

[Corkofski]

yea, thanks guys, all extremely useful!

for the song in question with my band, i think im gonna take bills idea.

im also gonna put this on my speed exercise list, along with the double pedal and paradiddle/foot pattern combos

all fun!

[DxRocker]

...AND
If it ain't swinging, it's not the tempo, it's the player

/round of applause :lol:

those are great exercises

[Jezen]

Right... technique doesnt' change with tempo

I didn't say the technique doesn't change. You used to be good at arguing. Don't try and manipulate my argument just so you can make a response.

[Josiah]

Not in those words, you are right. You said..


There's no need to analyze a particular hand motion into definite scientifics just to play a fast swing ride pattern.

Then by your reasoning, there's no need to work on ANY technique what-so-ever.

Snce tehcnique DOES change with speed, it need be addressed as any technique does for any tempo. :thumb:



Coming from someone who's helpful first reply to the TS's question was...

After a while it doesn't swing that much.

Maybe you should go work on your technique then.

[rohbit]

Not in those words, you are right. You said..



Then by your reasoning, there's no need to work on ANY technique what-so-ever.

Snce tehcnique DOES change with speed, it need be addressed as any technique does for any tempo. :thumb:



Coming from someone who's helpful first reply to the TS's question was...



Maybe you should go work on your technique then.


Maybe when BB said, "it doesn't swing that much" he meant that while at a slower speed, the average player would be able to her the "swing" quite clearly, but as it gets faster, since the notes get closer together, it becomes harder to tell (it could be there, but you'd have to know your **** to be able to tell).

[Josiah]

Nah, cause even with some of the fastest stuff, there is no doubt it's swinging. Cop out for people who can't swing fast is that is.
Either way, it was a BS reply to someones question wich didn't help out at all.

[DxRocker]

Swing at 180 needs to swing just as much and just as nicely as at 100.

Period.

[Caleb3221]

It is generally accepted that a swing will "flatten out" at very high tempos. This is not because it's not possible to play heavily swung that fast, it's because it dosen't sound good. Listen to the greats playing uptempo stuff and you generally hear that the "ting ting ta ting ting ta ting" turns into a "ting ta ta ting ta ta ting" thing. I am not pulling this out of my ***, John Riley says this is true in his books if you want someone with more authority than me to back it up in text, and it's something I've always been taught by some drummers that I REALLY respect. To clarify, it dosen't stop swinging in any sense. One of the things that make Roach and Williams great is they BURN at ridiculous tempos.

And, I honestly think the people arguing against playing quarter notes have not listened to very much jazz-many drummers base their jazz playing off quarter notes even at slow tempos, and there are plenty who play a lot of quarters and such at very high tempos. There are some that don't, but it's by no means mandatory to keep playing "ting ting ta ting ting ta ting ting ta ting" ad infinitum when playing an up swing(or any swing). It's worth learning to do, but don't feel that you can't play uptempo swing unless you can keep your ride pattern constant.

[DxRocker]

I never said leaving out the "ting ting ta ting ting..." stops the groove from swinging...

Like billdrum said .....you should be ABLE to play the pattern correctly before you can vary from it.

[Caleb3221]

I guess we don't disagree then. I was guessing from one of your initial posts decrying leaving out notes and calling it a day that you were against the playing of just quarter notes, but I think I misinterpreted what you said.

[Josiah]

I still want to hear BritishBoy play some burning swing stuff...

[Jeff]

i wanna hear travis barker play jazz.

[Ellx]

Funny how BB and Josiah were getting on so well in a different thread