i've got a bone to pick with capitalism

[pixiesfanyo]

and a few to break.

[raus]

You're such a ****ing faggot it's unbelievable.

[pixiesfanyo]

i've got a bone to pick with capitalism

and a few to break.

[Luxor]

haven't listened to this in a long time.

[AIRIC]

Yeah me either. I bet it'll bore me though so I'm not gonna put it on.

[IgniteYourAvail]

Oh man, I think I'm going to put that album on right now.

[whiteminority]

I have to be in the mood for this album, I used to love it, then when I realized that when I bought it from FYE it totally contradicts everything the album talks about I grew out of it.

[cbmartinez]

Fantastic album.

[team_racket]

enjoyable. but overrated.

[RetiredAt21]

I don't even know what this is about.

[pixiesfanyo]

summer holidays and punk routines

[AIRIC]

refused.

[srt-4]

bullshit line. why even quote it?

[pixiesfanyo]

you a big capitalism fan srt?

[srt-4]

ya. you know of a better system?

but thats not why i call it a bulls'hit line. its bulls'hit because, like ben said, their actions are in complete contradiction with all of their rhetoric.

[SunnyDayRealEstateAM]

Capitalism sucks. Socialism bitch.

[pixiesfanyo]

ya. you know of a better system?

but thats not why i call it a bulls'hit line. its bulls'hit because, like ben said, their actions are in complete contradiction with all of their rhetoric.

i guess.

oh and i like socialism as well.

by i guess, i mean you're full of **** by the way.

[SunnyDayRealEstateAM]

ya. you know of a better system?

but thats not why i call it a bulls'hit line. its bulls'hit because, like ben said, their actions are in complete contradiction with all of their rhetoric.
Maybe they don't have control of where their albums are sold?

[pixiesfanyo]

No They Sold Out They Sell Records. Anarachy Is About Not Selling.

[TakeWarning]

Fascism for the win

This album is pretty good, but kind of boring during some songs.

[pixiesfanyo]

Fascism for the win

This album is pretty good, but kind of boring during some songs.

Yeah, the end of it kind of sucks.

But Apollo is sweet.

[srt-4]

read their "communiques" and lyrics and then look at their actions. they don't match up. i really don't want to spend time outlining it all here. you really don't have to look too deep to see it.

as for socialism. seriously? it obviously didn't work in practice. not only that, but i find it completely unconvincing in theory. i've read some of marx and lenin, and i've read their collaboration, the communist manifesto. the "march of history" theory has been demonstrated to be absolutely false. the theory of alienation through appropriation of labor doesn't match up to reality. and the subjugation of individuality and personal liberty to class is completely at odds with what i believe. marx did put forward some interesting analysis of the capitalist system of his day though.

and fascism is much worse. at least communism was based on analysis and reason. it turned out to be wrong, but it was a legitimate attempt. fascism is a completely empty ideology. there is no rationality. i've read mussolini's "doctrine of fascism". there is absolutely nothing there. no argument, no analysis, no support. just the statement that fascism is absolute truth and an outline of its disturbing tenets, without even an attempt to legitimize it through thought and reason.

on the other hand, having read some of locke, smith, montesquie, mill, et al, i find liberalism to be very convincing, and vastly superior to communism, fascism, monarchy, ect both from a moral and intellectual standpoint, as well as in practice.

[A-Life-Less-Plagued]

are you stupid? The Communist Manifesto isn't a collaboration between Marx and Lenin. Lenin was born like 20 years after it was published. I haven't even read it and I know that.

[srt-4]

ya, my bad, engels. that was bad. its sitting on my bookshelf not 2 feet away.

[pixiesfanyo]

Refused were about being original, and uncomforming. I think during the bands acutally inception, that was pretty well done.

Nice mess up on the socialist ****.

Plus like you said, Marx was a long time ago.

Theories evolve. Democratic Socialism is ridiculous good.

[RunAmokRampant]

Well does anybody like The (International) Noise Conspiracy? I've only heard a few snippets of their stuff and I like whatshisface vocalist from Refused so yeah, any suggestions?

[pixiesfanyo]

They're just kind of a shitty version of Refused.

[srt-4]

Refused were about being original, and uncomforming. I think during the bands acutally inception, that was pretty well done.

Nice mess up on the socialist ****.

Plus like you said, Marx was a long time ago.

Theories evolve. Democratic Socialism is ridiculous good.
yes, it was a pretty bad mistake, but those things happen from time to time. i don't think that mistake alone invalidates the points i was making, though.

i'm really not very well informed when it comes to socialism. as far as i'm concerned, its a failed experiment. its only due to its very significant historical influence that i have studied it at all. so maybe you could expound on "democratic socialism is ridiculous good". from what i had understood that was a pretty general term that could apply to diverse movements.

[pixiesfanyo]

^ Denmark.

[srt-4]

this reminded me of the movie "good bye lenin". its good.

[raus]

this reminded me of the movie "good bye lenin". its good.Great movie.

[srt-4]

^ Denmark.
now can you expound on that?

i don't know much about denmark specifically, but i know its a capitalist nation. its a member of the eu. sure, most western european nations have more socialist leanings than the united states does. but they don't represent an alternative system to capitalism, and many predict that europe's social welfare system will lead to a crisis as the population ages.

[srt-4]

Great movie.
ya, it turned out to be a lot better than i expected. it was very well done, with the interpersonal relationships being allegorical of the experiences of the country as a whole, but still compelling on their own, and all mixed in with some humor. i'm impressed that you've watched it. i wasn't watching movies like that when i was your age.

[raus]

Yeah I rule.

[pixiesfanyo]

now can you expound on that?

i don't know much about denmark specifically, but i know its a capitalist nation. its a member of the eu. sure, most western european nations have more socialist leanings than the united states does. but they don't represent an alternative system to capitalism, and many predict that europe's social welfare system will lead to a crisis as the population ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark

[whiteminority]

Maybe they don't have control of where their albums are sold?
Because they signed to a fairly large label, no they don't. However, singing about such a subject and actually believing it, and knowing that your albums are distributed through ****ing Epitaph in America there is a certain knowledge that your albums are going through chain music stores which are the exact thing the band is rallying against. I'm not exactly a fan of capitalism because of the way it adversely affects segments of the population, but if I'm going to be a part of the system like Refused chose to be, then I'm not going to try to act like i"m truly rebelling against it.

[whiteminority]

this reminded me of the movie "good bye lenin". its good.
Is that the one where the mother falls into a coma during the reign of East Germany and wakes up after the wall falls and her son trys to keep up the appearance that the country is still socialist? If so we watched that in German in 9th grade and it was awesome.

[raus]

Is that the one where the mother falls into a coma during the reign of East Germany and wakes up after the wall falls and her son trys to keep up the appearance that the country is still socialist? If so we watched that in German in 9th grade and it was awesome.Yep.

[whiteminority]

Movie rules.

[young, loud, and andrew]

I love The Shape of Punk To Come.
I fully support capitalism.

Good music is good music.

[RCVA]

I think the idea of everyone being equal but the whole idea ****s up when someone doing nothing useful gets exactly the same as someone who's worked their hardest at what they do.


At least capitalism rewards people for their effort and talent most of the time.



I love Refused anyway.

[pixiesfanyo]

I think the idea of everyone being equal but the whole idea ****s up when someone doing nothing useful gets exactly the same as someone who's worked their hardest at what they do.


At least capitalism rewards people for their effort and talent most of the time.



I love Refused anyway.

Everything involves certain skills, no job is completely easy.

[pixiesfanyo]

Because they signed to a fairly large label, no they don't. However, singing about such a subject and actually believing it, and knowing that your albums are distributed through ****ing Epitaph in America there is a certain knowledge that your albums are going through chain music stores which are the exact thing the band is rallying against. I'm not exactly a fan of capitalism because of the way it adversely affects segments of the population, but if I'm going to be a part of the system like Refused chose to be, then I'm not going to try to act like i"m truly rebelling against it.

You know, it's kind of impossible to not be part of the capitalist system. CONSIDERING EVERYONE IS.

[RetiredAt21]

Who even cares?

[RCVA]

Everything involves certain skills, no job is completely easy.

That's not what i meant.


So would you pay a street cleaner the same as a surgeon?

[pixiesfanyo]

I think every job has to be done. Just because someone is a surgeon, and someone is a street cleaner doesn't make their job any less important.

[cbmartinez]

Just because attempts at socialism have never gotten past the dictator reconstruction phase, doesn't mean it can't work.

[srt-4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark
"This thoroughly modern market economy features high-tech agriculture, up-to-date small-scale and corporate industry, extensive government welfare measures, comfortable living standards, a stable currency, and high dependence on foreign trade."

thats capitalism. all modern capitalism has incorporated social welfare programs. like i said, europe is more to the left of the US in regards to social programs, but it is still one of the leading market economies of the world. its no alternative to capitalism, its only a slightly more restrained form than we have here.

again, there is a very good chance that europe's social programs are going to cause big problems soon. so i would hardly point to it as a successful system just yet. also, europe has been able to spend so much on social programs because it has been a free rider under the US strategic umbrella. indirectly, the US has funded part of their social programs. so i'll say it again, the western european system offers no alternative to capitalism.

and cb, to me, the fact that it has never succeeded is indeed a good indication that it probably cannot work. on the other hand, capitalism has been very successful. and i find the works that laid the foundation for liberalism to be much more convincing than those of communism. basically, at the core one is based on individual liberty and the other is based on the subjugation of individual liberty to class identity. and i personally am going to choose individual liberty.

[RetiredAt21]

Just because attempts at socialism have never gotten past the dictator reconstruction phase, doesn't mean it can't work.

Still, it'd be pretty hard for it to work. Someone out there will always want mad power. I doubt it will ever work.

[SunnyDayRealEstateAM]

Still, it'd be pretty hard for it to work. Someone out there will always want mad power. I doubt it will ever work.
The same was said about a lot of things such as the right to vote and what not. Socialism can work. It takes more than a handful of tries. It's the best thing for everyone.

[pixiesfanyo]

On the other hand, capitalism has been very successful. and i find the works that laid the foundation for liberalism to be much more convincing than those of communism. basically, at the core one is based on individual liberty and the other is based on the subjugation of individual liberty to class identity. and i personally am going to choose individual liberty.

Uhm. My main problem with capitalism is that for it to be successful, half of the world has to be unsuccessful. I went to a speech by a cunt of Rand's and basically he was talking about how if capitalism was in every country the world would be better. Problem with that is techinically someone has to be a sucker in capitalism. I may align myself with socialism, but it is because I think it's the best system that gives everyone equal living standards.

I'm not about one person over another. I'm about harmony. But whatever.

[BringHomeTheBacon]

Throw a rock in the macheeeeeeeeene. The Shape Of Punk To Come is quickly becoming one of my favorite albums ever. Seriously not a dull moment in the entire thing, I even love Bruitist Pome.

[RetiredAt21]

The same was said about a lot of things such as the right to vote and what not. Socialism can work. It takes more than a handful of tries. It's the best thing for everyone.

Doubt it.

[A-Life-Less-Plagued]

you say that you hate capitalism
but you won't comprimise
when you're out of cigarettes
FUNNY THING IS YOUR BUTTS FULL OF JIZZ

[whiteminority]

Just because attempts at socialism have never gotten past the dictator reconstruction phase, doesn't mean it can't work.
That's communism, socialism has worked in small communities which I'm sure you learned about in US History and World History. On a large scale socialism works somewhat well when combined with capitalism, Sweden is a good example.

[whiteminority]

I think every job has to be done. Just because someone is a surgeon, and someone is a street cleaner doesn't make their job any less important.
Read Anthem by Ayn Rand. I don't like that woman's views because she seems a little fascistic but that book is a good counterpoint to total and complete equality.

[pixiesfanyo]

Ayn Rand is a total douche bag.

If anyone follows that bullshit they're a ****ing bigot, because that's half of the message she promoted.

[whiteminority]

Yeah I know, but like I said that book is a good counterpoint.

[srt-4]

Uhm. My main problem with capitalism is that for it to be successful, half of the world has to be unsuccessful. I went to a speech by a squirrel of Rand's and basically he was talking about how if capitalism was in every country the world would be better. Problem with that is techinically someone has to be a sucker in capitalism. I may align myself with socialism, but it is because I think it's the best system that gives everyone equal living standards.

I'm not about one person over another. I'm about harmony. But whatever.
no. free market economy is not zero sum. can you back up "someone has to be a sucker"? pretty much the entire basis of capitalism is the idea that everybody participating in the system is better off. adam smith's idea of the invisible hand and ricardo's theory of comparative advantage are examples.

and i really object to true equality as a goal of society. not every person is equal. we all probably know at least one person who is just a worthless human being that contributes virtually nothing to society. i think people should be provided with equal opportunities, not equal standings. everyone should have the chance to succeed, and success should have fair rewards.

also, its hard for me to understand people that desire economic equality without either one of two things being true. one, they resent wealthy people for having more money than them because they don't think people should have such luxury, or two, they resent wealthy people because they themselves wished they had those luxuries. i myself am not wealthy, but don't resent people that are. i really don't care that some people have $15,000,000 homes, $300,000 cars, and whatever other luxuries they waste money on. i don't want that stuff, and it doesn't bother me that they have it and i never will. as long as i can comfortably afford relatively modest stuff like a computer with internet, books, music, fun and reliable transportation, food that tastes decent and keeps me healthy, a safe and sound place to live, decent health insurance, ect, i'm pretty much economically happy. i could easily live comfortably on like 40k a year, and be doing something i enjoy. on the other hand, freedom of choice and expression is very important to me. absolute equality requires the subjugation of individuality, which is a very scary idea to me.

compare john stuart mill with marx or lenin. i remember reading in lenin's state and revolution about the "dictatorship of the proletariat." they believed that the working class should hold absolute power and force its will on the rest of society. compare that with a statement of mill's in on liberty, ""If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."

[pixiesfanyo]

no. free market economy is not zero sum. can you back up "someone has to be a sucker"? pretty much the entire basis of capitalism is the idea that everybody participating in the system is better off. adam smith's idea of the invisible hand and ricardo's theory of comparative advantage are examples.

Any economic system that revolves around a class system results in losers.


and i really object to true equality as a goal of society. not every person is equal. we all probably know at least one person who is just a worthless human being that contributes virtually nothing to society. i think people should be provided with equal opportunities, not equal standings. everyone should have the chance to succeed, and success should have fair rewards.

With capitalism you aren't really giving equal opportunities. As much as people like to say every person in America has equal opportunity, they don't. With capitalism you are always going to have those poor black children you see on christian infomercials.


also, its hard for me to understand people that desire economic equality without either one of two things being true. one, they resent wealthy people for having more money than them because they don't think people should have such luxury, or two, they resent wealthy people because they themselves wished they had those luxuries. i myself am not wealthy, but don't resent people that are. i really don't care that some people have $15,000,000 homes, $300,000 cars, and whatever other luxuries they waste money on. i don't want that stuff, and it doesn't bother me that they have it and i never will. as long as i can comfortably afford relatively modest stuff like a computer with internet, books, music, fun and reliable transportation, food that tastes decent and keeps me healthy, a safe and sound place to live, decent health insurance, ect, i'm pretty much economically happy. i could easily live comfortably on like 40k a year, and be doing something i enjoy. on the other hand, freedom of choice and expression is very important to me. absolute equality requires the subjugation of individuality, which is a very scary idea to me.

Like I said, social democracy is in my opinion the best idea. Incorporating ideas form socialist points is much better than being opposed to them. I don't see the point in having luxuries, when you could be living a middle class life style and such. I don't know, I don't define myself by luxuries.


compare john stuart mill with marx or lenin. i remember reading in lenin's state and revolution about the "dictatorship of the proletariat." they believed that the working class should hold absolute power and force its will on the rest of society. compare that with a statement of mill's in on liberty, ""If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."

Like I said, Marx and Lenin are nearly hundred year old philosphies. Look at countries like Sweden and Norway for demonstrations of social democracies.

[Excursions]

I hate how people try to use the Marxist theorem to say that only white people can be racist.

[srt-4]

Any economic system that revolves around a class system results in losers.
you are simply stating that smith, ricardo, et al are wrong. where is the support?
With capitalism you aren't really giving equal opportunities. As much as people like to say every person in America has equal opportunity, they don't. With capitalism you are always going to have those poor black children you see on christian infomercials.
haha, i think the kids on those infomercails are from africa, but i get your point. and you're right. however, thats a flaw in implementation of the system, not its ideals. working to correct that doesn't require the abandonment of capitalism.
Like I said, social democracy is in my opinion the best idea. Incorporating ideas form socialist points is much better than being opposed to them. I don't see the point in having luxuries, when you could be living a middle class life style and such. I don't know, I don't define myself by luxuries.
just because you (and i) don't see the point in luxuries and are content with a middle class lifestyle doesn't mean you have the right to take away others' rights to something different. if people want to define themselves by their possessions, that should be their right.
Like I said, Marx and Lenin are nearly hundred year old philosphies. Look at countries like Sweden and Norway for demonstrations of social democracies.
i keep saying this, the european nations have market economies. they have only incorporated social welfare programs into a capitalist economy to a greater degree than some other market economies. you can't call a market economy an alternative to market economies. what you could do is point to them as alternatives to the american system, but they are both variation on the same system. they therefore can not be alternatives to that system, but only to each other.

norway is somewhat of an exception, because it can probably be called a mixed economy, but that is only due to the large role of energy resources in the economy and state ownership of those resources. if it wasn't for north sea oil, it would be a different story. similarly, the persian gulf states' economies work, but certainly can't be pointed to as successful models. but in general, as i alredy said, the western european systems are misleading as examples because the US has indirectly subsidized their social programs through its strategic umbrella. also, their social programs are predicted to cause crises in the future, and people are recognizing this. just look at your own example, sweden. in the last election, it shifted to the right by electing a party that has goals of some reductions in taxes and social programs.

as to the point about not examining the "hundred year old philosophies", those are the foundation of the beliefs, if you ignore the foundation of the beliefs, then what is your justification for them. they laid out reasoned arguments supporting communism/socialism, if you strip them away what reasoned support are you replacing them with? smith, mill, et al are that old or older, and their works are still relevant, and the system they helped create is still relevant. if you ignore the works that helped create the system you advocate, where is your support for it?

[A-Life-Less-Plagued]

tl;dr