View Full Version : What happened?
Swill_Merchant
11-21-2006, 11:39 PM
I play in a few jazz groups and I am 17. At our age it is hard to find a gig that will be suited torwards us as a group. At times I feel frustration and at times I feel unique. Why do bands like "Thursday", "Greenday" and "Hinder" control the radio? If it is about money, then so be it. Has jazz become so underground that it will have to have a miraculous revival, or has it just become a little known trend that has fallen under the sespool of over-used progressions, undeveloped idiocy and stereotypical chord phrases?
I listened to the "hip" music today, and it was at most substandard. What is with this message of Anarchy? What is with this sadistic anger and pity-party sadness? Why do these bands get huge being hypocritical and extremley commercial? I like to listen to music to relax, have fun and to let loose.
If I wanted to get angry I would drive in Los Angeles rush-hour.
I am just curious as to what your thoughts are.
traveller
11-22-2006, 01:12 AM
I am in the same boat as you my friend. I'm in a jazz sextet and a jazz fusion trio and i am in my teens and i agree that it is nearly impossible to find a gig. Most live music venues are nowadays only looking for punk, deathmetal and all sorts of other simpleton music.
Jazz is very much underground at the moment. I believe that it is because the musical appreciation of our society has very much been dummed down due to the exposure of unsophisticated pop music and rediculously loud rock bands which hide behind the distortion of their guitars. However, i believe it is also to do with the fact that for the past 20 years jazz has become more and more abstract in many ways. THe structure of modern jazz pieces has become obscure in some senses. This is often the case when the beat of the piece is clouded and not easy to pick up and to the general audience this can turn people off jazz music whereas people who have worked their way through the various periods of jazz can appreciate this music. If you look at the main stream jazz which is popular nowadays it often has lyrics and a strong beat or a repetitive and attractive bluesy theme and this is why swing was the most popular music in its time.
I think another crucial difference is that most of these modern pop and rock groups do not play the music with passion, they play it to earn money as you have pointed out whereas for many jazz musicians they do it to quench their passion for jazz. Its a sort of journey through which they find new and often abstract ways to express themselvelves which the general public find hard to understand.
i have many more ideas to express on this issue but it would take to long for me to write up my full opinion.
if you want to further dicuss this point with me feel free to add me on msn, Iamatravellerofbothtimeandspace@hotmail.com or pappajojones@gmail.com for google messenger
I love jazz, but discounting "angry" music is being just as bad as the teen hipsters.
Lupus
11-22-2006, 02:01 AM
You guys honestly believe that bands don't care about music because the music they play is simple? I highly doubt that most bands start off thinking that they're gonna make tons of money, or that it's even possible to release an album if you don't like the songs you write.
Swill_Merchant
11-22-2006, 02:02 AM
I love jazz, but discounting "angry" music is being just as bad as the teen hipsters.
I don't quite get what you are saying.......... sorry. I didn't mean to offend you if I did, it wasn't my intention.
Swill_Merchant
11-22-2006, 02:07 AM
You guys honestly believe that bands don't care about music because the music they play is simple? I highly doubt that most bands start off thinking that they're gonna make tons of money, or that it's even possible to release an album if you don't like the songs you write.
No, thats not it at all. I know bands start out for fun and the music. What they turn into is the problem. I am just wondering why this whole scence is getting put on the back burner. I also wonder why the bands that are big, are big. And people like Pat Martino, Art Tatum and Dave Brubeck are less favored than Skynyrd of Def Leppard.
I don't quite get what you are saying.......... sorry. I didn't mean to offend you if I did, it wasn't my intention.
Well who really cares what's on the radio? There's good music out there besides jazz, and the radio is hardly a good indication of good "angry" music or rock in general. Good jazz should be left for the people who are passionate enough to go and find it, listen to it, and love it (like you and me). Why do you want good jazz to be watered through the radio system, so all these mediocre bands will pop up imitating the jazz greats, getting played on the radio? That's exactly the story of bands like Thursday, Greenday and Hinder. If jazz started becoming the mainstream, popular music form, the exact same thing would happen to it. Do you really want that?
pixiesfanyo
11-22-2006, 01:27 PM
Jazz isn't popular, because jazz artists are doing the same thing they were doing thirty years ago.
It's like, go get bent.
Well...
No?
You could say the same thing about rock music, but you'd just be a damn fool.
Eliminator
11-22-2006, 01:50 PM
Well who really cares what's on the radio? There's good music out there besides jazz, and the radio is hardly a good indication of good "angry" music or rock in general. Good jazz should be left for the people who are passionate enough to go and find it, listen to it, and love it (like you and me). Why do you want good jazz to be watered through the radio system, so all these mediocre bands will pop up imitating the jazz greats, getting played on the radio? That's exactly the story of bands like Thursday, Greenday and Hinder. If jazz started becoming the mainstream, popular music form, the exact same thing would happen to it. Do you really want that?
this
AmericanWeiner
11-22-2006, 02:08 PM
No, thats not it at all. I know bands start out for fun and the music. What they turn into is the problem. I am just wondering why this whole scence is getting put on the back burner. I also wonder why the bands that are big, are big. And people like Pat Martino, Art Tatum and Dave Brubeck are less favored than Skynyrd of Def Leppard.
Man, I hate to be frank, and I'm a jazz guy through and through, but have you ever really listened to skynyrd?
They made really good music. That's like discounting the eagles or the beatles in my opinion. I mean yeah martino and tatum and brubeck are great if I want to listen to jazz and I'm in that mood to learn or get creative, but if I'm out with friends or drinking, it's going to be something hip-hop or classic rock.
I think most of you can sympathize that jazz is fun when you're wanting to mentally invest...and not so much fun when you don't.
stevensonmat2
11-22-2006, 03:19 PM
The most common reaction I get from people when mentioning jazz is "you mean that stuff my grandpa listens too?" Jazz was so popular in its day because it was the rebellious music, just like metal is today, and so it was the hip thing to listen to. Obviously music moved on and jazz became a standard, and simple rock took over. Now a'days people dont want to listen to jazz because for one there is the stigma attached to it as being lame old timey music, and also as A.Weiner said, its to complex.
Most people's musical taste is very undeveloped today for many reasons, such as the sharp decline in musical studies in school, as well as the turn to simple pop music being the mainstream. When I was younger I didn't like jazz at all because I didn;t understand it. Thankfully my musical comphrehension has matured over the years, but thats only because Ive exposed myself and have been exposed to many genres of music. The "sceneing" of music has stunted the masses musical pallate, as they choose to listen to one or two types of music whilst forsaking all others to better fit into a social clique.
Swill_Merchant
11-22-2006, 03:19 PM
Man, I hate to be frank, and I'm a jazz guy through and through, but have you ever really listened to skynyrd?
They made really good music. That's like discounting the eagles or the beatles in my opinion. I mean yeah martino and tatum and brubeck are great if I want to listen to jazz and I'm in that mood to learn or get creative, but if I'm out with friends or drinking, it's going to be something hip-hop or classic rock.
I think most of you can sympathize that jazz is fun when you're wanting to mentally invest...and not so much fun when you don't.
Yes, Skynyrd was just something off the top of my head.
kdizze
11-22-2006, 06:31 PM
I think we all agree on how beautiful and profound jazz is (mostly!). But it is because of this complexity that it is not highly popular. People in general like simple and catchy, for many reasons, and I agree that is not neccissarily a good thing.
But you can't have a go at someone for selling records, it's not their fault: it's like having a go at a fashon designer for selling a lot of clothes.
I think the point is great music is out there, it just takes a bit of looking for, but doesn't this make it even more worthwhile when you find it?
some jive turkey
11-23-2006, 10:09 AM
Why do bands like "Thursday", "Greenday" and "Hinder" control the radio?
Clear Channel owns almost all of the radio stations in the US.
If I wanted to get angry I would drive in Los Angeles rush-hour.
*laughs*
That could be why angry music is so popular.
gaslight
11-24-2006, 08:06 AM
Jazz was the popular music for a while. Different styles were popular before it, different styles have been popular after.
Its a nasty side of musicians to turn around and be all "I can play jazz and its hard so I deserve lots of gigs and I hate how people who play easy music get lots of gigs instead".
Jazz is a great, but musicians need to realise that unless you live somewhere with a thriving jazz scene and are very good at it, it won't pay for your bread and butter.
In my opinion, it might not be a good thing that jazz isn't as popular as it used to be in the mainstream, but it's even worse to see musicians turn into elitist pricks about it.
In my opinion, it might not be a good thing that jazz isn't as popular as it used to be in the mainstream, but it's even worse to see musicians turn into elitist pricks about it.
But jazz is something that is so profound and cerebral that only the top 1% of people are allowed to get it whilst we complain that others don't get it! Oh, irony, how we love you!
People (both fans and non-fans) over value how "smart" jazz actually is and doing so lose a big part of what the music was all about. Jazz is actually pretty simple.
DrunkRock
11-24-2006, 01:29 PM
Complex music does not make your music good, or entertaining. There are plently of complex rock bands that make it big, becuase they sound good, provide an entertaining live show, and connect with their audience. I doubt many jazz artists get their crowd fired up at a live show. That's what the kids want, energy. Jazz is just jack off material for musicians.
AmericanWeiner2
11-24-2006, 03:01 PM
Complex music does not make your music good, or entertaining. There are plently of complex rock bands that make it big, becuase they sound good, provide an entertaining live show, and connect with their audience. I doubt many jazz artists get their crowd fired up at a live show. That's what the kids want, energy. Jazz is just jack off material for musicians.
You've been goin to the wrong concerts man :thumb:
Complex music does not make your music good, or entertaining. There are plently of complex rock bands that make it big, becuase they sound good, provide an entertaining live show, and connect with their audience. I doubt many jazz artists get their crowd fired up at a live show. That's what the kids want, energy. Jazz is just jack off material for musicians.
:lol:
Idiot.
DrunkRock served us so ****ing hard. I bet he had to high-five his homies after that zing.
Mad Malik
11-24-2006, 11:40 PM
He lives close to me I'm going to kick his ***.
Lydisk
11-25-2006, 08:26 AM
in my town it is easy to get jazz gigs because its quite popular and we have a good jazz club and community.
jazz music is just a bit less popular than dance music and turbonegro coverbands.
There are lottts of jazz clubs around here, some being good, some being bad.
AlienEater
11-25-2006, 05:56 PM
Complex music does not make your music good, or entertaining. There are plently of complex rock bands that make it big, becuase they sound good, provide an entertaining live show, and connect with their audience. I doubt many jazz artists get their crowd fired up at a live show. That's what the kids want, energy. Jazz is just jack off material for musicians.
you're pretty dumb
gaslight
11-25-2006, 06:25 PM
His first sentence is actually perfectly accurate.
Not so much the rest.
Mad Malik
11-25-2006, 06:28 PM
mhmm
Scuba_Steve
11-26-2006, 12:42 AM
Hi, I like jazz.
That makes me better than you.
That is the stupidest thing ever, it makes you look like one of those stupid kids who do things on purpose to make themselves look more indie than everyone else.
Surprise but, being in a jazz band doesnt make you better or worse than someone who is in a Sex Pistols coverband for chrissakes.
DrunkRock
11-26-2006, 12:53 AM
DrunkRock served us so ****ing hard. I bet he had to high-five his homies after that zing.
Not really. Just stating an opinion contrary to the majority of the posters in a highly opinionated thread.
Complexity for complexity's sake makes the worst artistry and even worse entertainment.
Zappa
11-26-2006, 01:09 AM
Who the **** is hinder?
gaslight
11-26-2006, 01:14 AM
I don't know either. You'd think if they "control the radio" we might know who they are. Funny that.
Swill_Merchant
11-26-2006, 01:38 AM
I don't know either. You'd think if they "control the radio" we might know who they are. Funny that.
I was simply asking a question, and if you choose to be angry about it then you missed the whole point of it. I disagree, Johnny A, Pat Martino, and Art Tatum are WAY more skilled than the sex pistols. I mean if you like those messages than I am glad for you, I am simply getting different viewpoints on the subject. I also have never met a jazz player who thinks that they are these stereotyped "elitists". Unless you think knowing about music theory falls under that category. I don't mind an opposing argument, I actually like them,but I like them to be at least nice about it. If we only have answers and no question, we will never develop. And there are pretty good tag lines that are relativley easy, not all jazz is really complex.
What does indie have to do with this too?
Swill_Merchant
11-26-2006, 01:49 AM
Not really. Just stating an opinion contrary to the majority of the posters in a highly opinionated thread.
Complexity for complexity's sake makes the worst artistry and even worse entertainment.
I agree with you about that.
Swill_Merchant
11-26-2006, 01:49 AM
DrunkRock served us so ****ing hard. I bet he had to high-five his homies after that zing.
Very funny!
gaslight
11-26-2006, 01:57 AM
I'm not angry, I just don't think that jazz falling out of the mainstream is the horrible thing people make it out to be. Entertainment and art are both subject to trends and movements, its just the natural flow of things.
I agree with you on one thing, the Sex Pistols are the bottom of barrel as far as musicians go.
Swill_Merchant
11-26-2006, 01:59 AM
I'm not angry, I just don't think that jazz falling out of the mainstream is the horrible thing people make it out to be. Entertainment and art are both subject to trends and movements, its just the natural flow of things.
I agree with you on one thing, the Sex Pistols are the bottom of barrel as far as musicians go.
Never really thought about that! Thank you.
gaslight
11-26-2006, 02:02 AM
No worries.
Believe me man, I wouldn't mind at all if jazz gigs were easier to get. But I don't really mind too much because I love playing all styles of music.
Scuba_Steve
11-26-2006, 02:07 AM
I was simply asking a question, and if you choose to be angry about it then you missed the whole point of it. I disagree, Johnny A, Pat Martino, and Art Tatum are WAY more skilled than the sex pistols. I mean if you like those messages than I am glad for you, I am simply getting different viewpoints on the subject. I also have never met a jazz player who thinks that they are these stereotyped "elitists". Unless you think knowing about music theory falls under that category. I don't mind an opposing argument, I actually like them,but I like them to be at least nice about it. If we only have answers and no question, we will never develop. And there are pretty good tag lines that are relativley easy, not all jazz is really complex.
What does indie have to do with this too?
Indie kids think that because they listen to/ play something really underground that it will make them a better person.
Much like how some jazz fans think that by listening to jazz it will instantly grant them some sort of magic recognition.
Also, of course no one will admit that they're a "standard elitist" because it's a negative thing.
There are many many many many many bands that know their musical theory that still put out absolute crap music. Most powermetal bands have theory out the wazoo and alot of them arent that great. On the other hand, Black Flag's Greg Ginn was and still is a HUGE jazz fan, but he played in a punk band and knew ALOT about theory.
That proves that theory doesnt equal technical music nor does it equal popular music.
It all comes down to preference, which is based on opinion. and we all know that opinion isnt something everyone has in common.
Krabsworth
11-26-2006, 02:12 AM
jazz stopped being popular because in the 60's rock music was like exploding with innovation and jazz kind of trailed off and was stuck in the late 50's until about the early 90's when it had been forgotten in general
so yeah
AlienEater
11-26-2006, 08:44 AM
Hi, I like jazz.
That makes me better than you.
That is the stupidest thing ever, it makes you look like one of those stupid kids who do things on purpose to make themselves look more indie than everyone else.
Surprise but, being in a jazz band doesnt make you better or worse than someone who is in a Sex Pistols coverband for chrissakes.
I like your jazz fan stereotype.
Do it again
jazz stopped being popular because in the 60's rock music was like exploding with innovation and jazz kind of trailed off and was stuck in the late 50's until about the early 90's when it had been forgotten in general
What? Ornette basically lead a whole new form a jazz in the '60s.
Scuba_Steve
11-26-2006, 12:18 PM
I like your jazz fan stereotype.
Do it again
I didnt stereotype, I was refering to the TS, because that's basically what he said.
Swill_Merchant
11-26-2006, 01:35 PM
I didnt stereotype, I was refering to the TS, because that's basically what he said.
That isn't what I meant by this. I wanted to simply ask a question and get different viewpoints and reasons why. I don't think that I am better because I listen to jazz, and I actually enjoy bands like Mellancollin, and The Mighty Mighty Bosstones. But, like all people I do have my likes and dislike, and like all people I am curious to why things happen. Yes, I could draw my own conclusions. But asking questions and stating my opinion (no matter how wrong it is to people) sharpens my dull rock to a finley tuned spear. I would rather have my *** handed to me for saying something stupid and learning from it than not stating it and not knowing different views on why I am wrong or why I am right.
Caleb3221
11-29-2006, 10:43 PM
I think one reason jazz isn't really in the mainstream is a lot of the newer, more innovative jazz artists are not relying on their jazz for money(at least around here). There's a pretty heavy jazz scene around here, with a lot of really interesting and "avant-garde" stuff, and I find most of it to be quite excellent. It gets a fair amount of popularity, but a lot of the guys don't rely on it for bread at all. As an example, 3 of the local heavyweights just did Mandy Moore's new album. These guys are all on sessions all over the place to support their music. This ends up being very nice, since they can support themselves with other stuff and play whatever they want when they play jazz and not worry about money. This has led to some very, very strange stuff coming around, some of it not very good, but some of it excellent.
Also, I'm really not a fan of jazz elitism. Jazz is always drawing on pop music and other genres, and has been through much of the history of jazz. I personally really like jazz, as well as straight up pop music, and there's great music to be heard everywhere in every genre, and the jazz guys that people feel elite for liking in most cases realized and appreciated this.
MNdrummer21
12-14-2006, 06:57 AM
Complex music does not make your music good, or entertaining. There are plently of complex rock bands that make it big, becuase they sound good, provide an entertaining live show, and connect with their audience. I doubt many jazz artists get their crowd fired up at a live show. That's what the kids want, energy. Jazz is just jack off material for musicians.
Yeah, great post, dick. Some of us actually like to play our instruments, not hit three power chords and think we're God. Also, if you don't think jazz can connect with an audience, then I don't know what the hell kind of jazz shows you've gone to.
AlienEater
12-14-2006, 10:32 AM
I presume he hasn't been to any
chronowarp
12-14-2006, 11:38 AM
Jazz kind of disappeared from the radar after the Swing era, and popped back up during with Cool Jazz in the 50's, after that...it got real "hard" to listen to for the average joe. Free Jazz..what a trip. Even Modern Jazz is often too "self indulgent" for the regular person who likes to hum the melody to a cliche pop song.
I'd rather listen to "Salt Peanuts" then "American Idiot", though.
fingers mccoy
12-14-2006, 12:06 PM
If it's actually debilitating you from listening to jazz music then i guess you have a reason to complain about the state of popular music today
i think there is much amazing pop music
the pop scene is arguably based on caricatures and affectations of personality and this i dont mind at all, it just moves in phases and popular culture has been like this for a very long time especially in more eastern cultures, kabuki etc
I personally think jazz lives pretty comfortably in today's western music scene
pixiesfanyo
12-14-2006, 12:36 PM
It's because black people lost their talent.
chronowarp
12-16-2006, 12:48 PM
Nah, I think it's because they stopped getting opressed to the degree they were before.
alaskansnollama
12-16-2006, 08:29 PM
Modern Jazz is so downplayed because of its media induced frontman, Kenny G. When any non Jazz enthuasist is asked about it, they'll mention his name and disgrace the rest of the jazz community. I have nothing against him, but when I think jazz, I think of Coltrane, Cannonball, Miles Davis, Count Basie and their like.
Jazz is not "Silent Night" played on a soprano sax with legato. That's simply classic music with a slight twist, at least in my opinion.
Caleb3221
12-16-2006, 11:44 PM
Not to bash you, but jazz is also downplayed by people who get past Kenny G because the non-crazed Jazz enthusiasts mention Coltrane, Cannonball, Davis, and Basie and mabye some fusion or something and the discussion of jazz ends there. There seem to be a whole lot of people who are not up with what's going on on either a local or larger scale level(I'll actually admit I'm not as up as I should be on the more mass distributed current stage of jazz, but I try to be as active in the local scene as I can). There has been a WHOLE lot of jazz since the end of the Modern era, people just don't seem to want to find it.
Not to bash you, but jazz is also downplayed by people who get past Kenny G because the non-crazed Jazz enthusiasts mention Coltrane, Cannonball, Davis, and Basie and mabye some fusion or something and the discussion of jazz ends there. There seem to be a whole lot of people who are not up with what's going on on either a local or larger scale level(I'll actually admit I'm not as up as I should be on the more mass distributed current stage of jazz, but I try to be as active in the local scene as I can). There has been a WHOLE lot of jazz since the end of the Modern era, people just don't seem to want to find it.
There has been a whole lot of jazz since it's inception, but I agree with you 100%. I hate when people bring up Miles and Coltrane as end-game musicians when then seem clueless towards other musicians putting out similar yet great music.
alaskansnollama
12-18-2006, 08:42 PM
True.
I like the styles of the old stuff, so in retrospect that's what I was trying to say. However, I do love a lot of what's starting to come out as far as Jazz intergration into other areas. I love fusion, and hearing trumpets and saxophones in modern R&B is usually somewhat tasteful. Except for Jay-Z having the same 5 note Tenor Sax line over and over in one song.
Living in the New Orleans area, there's a lot of Jazz History here. But sadly, we don't have any radio coverage of inovation in today's progression of Jazz. I'm definately out of the local loop as far as that goes.
Its tough to find new stuff.
chronowarp
12-22-2006, 03:16 PM
Modern Jazz is so downplayed because of its media induced frontman, Kenny G. When any non Jazz enthuasist is asked about it, they'll mention his name and disgrace the rest of the jazz community. I have nothing against him, but when I think jazz, I think of Coltrane, Cannonball, Miles Davis, Count Basie and their like.
Jazz is not "Silent Night" played on a soprano sax with legato. That's simply classic music with a slight twist, at least in my opinion.
Or Third Stream :)
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