Tension & Release

[Josiah]

Lets discuss...

When do you think it's appropriate to use phrases that build tension?

[MatthewMeredith]

I like the sounds of this... To me, tension is what makes music interesting to listen to...

Jos, do you mean tension in chords? Like, how a G7 in second position is tense and wants to resolve to a C in root?

[Josiah]

Yay, and nay, Rhythmically speaking of course for us drummers...

[MatthewMeredith]

Righto. I began as a piano player, so that was my first instinct to reply in :p.

So drumming wise, would tension be described as something that doesn't flow with the rest of the band? An example that comes to mind is the "Spin on the spiral" beat in Lateralus. It creates tension with the polyrhythm, right?

[FockerTheLopper]

Lets discuss...

When do you think it's appropriate to use phrases that build tension?

After a release. I think short drum solos were intended to build tension but drummers adapted to show off in them.

[MatthewMeredith]

^^ Yea, there should be a general pattern of tension, release, tension, release, etc.

On the other hand, it is also good to just build tension like hell and keep going if you want to finish a song with a bang.

Good discussion Jos! It's nice to see the forums actually going somewhere these days!

[Matter]

After a bridge toward the end of a song, then release into the final chorus.

[FockerTheLopper]

After a bridge toward the end of a song, then release into the final chorus.

Well thats very general, alot of songs don't call for that so you can't really say it like that. Today I was jamming with a guitarist for the first time and he told me that he put a sus chord in a part so he wanted me to fill in that part right before the drum solo I think I played a bar(or a bar and a half) of silence and it created alot of tension, it wasn't called for, then I did it in another part where it sounded good but practice was cut short so next time I'm probably going to put the part in.
I'm doing Count Basie's song The Heats On in my schools jazz band and I have 13 beat solo, I do soft to loud quater notes on the snare and bass with a little brraaaaap(SSB all LOUD!) at the end. The melody is in the trumpets before and after the solo(oh and after the solo I don't play until the + of 4 because that created MORE TENSION) and they play loud so when I play soft and when I cut off it really creates tension but then my swing makes everything feel better and the song finnally resolves(and ends).

[LittlePound]

this music theory talk makes me feel stupid, i was always interested in learning this stuff, just never was given the oppurtunity too...

[FockerTheLopper]

this music theory talk makes me feel stupid, i was always interested in learning this stuff, just never was given the oppurtunity too...

This isn't theory, its just concepts.

www.musictheory.net when you get there act as if you know nothing and you will realize how easy it is and you will pick it up.

[White Rabbit]

I love the type of fill thats a rudimental pattern or roll that has such a great feel then comes to the downbeat then there is massive explosions of cymbal sound.

to me those are the kind of long fills where tension and release really work great

[MatthewMeredith]

I like fills that end on any beat other than 1 of the first bar of the next phrase :p

[jiashen]

this music theory talk makes me feel stupid, i was always interested in learning this stuff, just never was given the oppurtunity too...
Yes. I know nothing of this 'tension' stuff. All I hear in music is nice or lousy. aahaha noobsville.

[Seafroggys]

triplets in a duplet meter add some good tension.

[Win A Rabbit]

There's always a sense of "sweetness", or "beauty" in predictable/predicted tension risings and fallings, but there's also that intriguing feeling when it rises or falls in an unexpected place.

I'm happy either way. Music is cool.

[Sync0pation]

Yeah noobsville for me to can someone please fully explain this?

From what I've gathered it's just sync0pation in some form, or some kind of polyrhythm where the drums are "offbeat" but then come back on, for the release?

[FockerTheLopper]

There's always a sense of "sweetness", or "beauty" in predictable/predicted tension risings and fallings, but there's also that intriguing feeling when it rises or falls in an unexpected place.

I'm happy either way. Music is cool.

yeah, alot of musicians like it when its unexpected, I always try to play it where its expected(unless I'm asked otherwise).

To syncopation, theres no solid meaning for tension and release its a thing you hear that makes music intresting the easiest way to understand it is to think of a dissonant chord that goes into a major chord, the dissonant chord is the tension and the major chord is the release

[GooseFilms.net]

When do you think it's appropriate to use phrases that build tension?

Easy question, before a climax. (99.9% of the time) You build to the climax with musical tension, which is released/resolved at the climax, and winds down from there. Obviously a simple model to which exceptions exist, but pretty much all the time, tension is built in order to release it.

[FockerTheLopper]

When do you think it's appropriate to use phrases that build tension?

Easy question, before a climax. (99.9% of the time) You build to the climax with musical tension, which is released/resolved at the climax, and winds down from there. Obviously a simple model to which exceptions exist, but pretty much all the time, tension is built in order to release it.

I think you guys are missing the point, this isn't an easy question its an open ended discussion, like philosophy. It isn't written in stone therefore can not be answered, yes it can and will ussually be before a climax but there are no rules and if there were music would become boring

[Inkstar]

Moving from verse into chorus, or pre-chorus for songs that have them. Pre-chorus' are great tension builders. A very obvious example of building the tension would be opening the hats more on the pre-chorus, and then moving to the ride once the tension meets its peak.

[White Rabbit]

A whole song can be made into a series of tension and release

[MatthewMeredith]

I think you guys are missing the point, this isn't an easy question its an open ended discussion, like philosophy. It isn't written in stone therefore can not be answered, yes it can and will ussually be before a climax but there are no rules and if there were music would become boring

Yea Focker knows where it's at. It's the same concept as consonance/dissonance. To an ear raised in North American culture, African tribal singing may sound very dissonant, especially when odd intervals are used (seconds, sevenths, semitones) but to them, it is a very pleasing sound.

Tension is subjective. When to use tension is also subjective. Some people might like a very tense phrase to be followed by a relaxing "calm down" phrase. Some people (most on these boards) like to stick to the generic tension - climax phrasing.

What a good musician needs to do is open her/his mind to all forms of musical tension/resolution. When you can appreciate many types of phrasing, you will achieve a higher level of not only musicianship, but knowledge and open minded-ness.

[samualbc]

Ooh nice topic.

I like building tension into an anticlimax, but if it isn't done tastefully then you're just left disappointed. Wish i could think of an example....

[Aaron]

The Package by APC has a good tension/release from the first section to the middle where the sound opens up. Sonically it goes from soft, precise dynamics to loud, open and energetic, but I find it's a really good passage because it demonstrates how heavy CAN be the release from the anxious-softness.

Also, another thing I find is a good tension/release is to go from a straight ride pattern to a swung ride pattern. Even without altering the sticking [aside from the swing] really changes the dynamics. the Ting Ting of the ride changing to a ta-ting..

[beaker_747]

I like fills that end on any beat other than 1 of the first bar of the next phrase :p

Amen. Playing over the bar makes everything seem that more frantic.

Brann Dailor much?

[Music rockS]

Verse to Chorus

Bridge to Chorus

Solo to verse.

[Flamacue]

When to build tension then release? Pretty obviously when the music requires it. Your ears should tell you when that is if you have anything of a musical ear.

[Pleaseme]

Tension before a drop is awsome, even a simple single stroke roll on the snare or hitting a tom and the snare in unison can be very effective.
As was said earlier, identifying tension and release sequences is entirely subjective and a song that sounds comprised entirely of small sequences to one person, may be interpretted differently by someone else.

Thinking about it, even a simple beat is a tension/release sequence where the snare hit (and maybe the upbeat strokes leading to it) is the tension, and the bass (and maybe a crash in unison) is the release.

[FockerTheLopper]

Oh the topic of tension, I think the easiest way to create tension in most music is to play silence(or VERY soft) in place of a fill and the cresendo to the regular volume will ussually feel like a release.
This is a general example but it can be varied alot so I felt like I should post it, it can be used in jazz as well as rock(and probably other styles) but thats a very easy way to create and tension in a song(if needed). Gadd does this alot in his solos and I think he said in the clinic "If you play silence during a fill everyone is going to think "Where are the drums?" but in a good way". Of course it wasn't exact wording but it was something like that.

[Det_Nosnip]

After a release. I think short drum solos were intended to build tension but drummers adapted to show off in them.

I dunno...Carey's solo in "The Grudge" is one of the greatest examples of a release of tension in the history of music...

[Drummer300btx]

what im hearing is like a big cresendo then like a bar of rest then going into a super heavy riff

[Det_Nosnip]

Crescendos, trills, vibrato...all of these are common musical devices for tension. In swing time, playing straight note figures is a nice way of adding tension.

[FockerTheLopper]

Crescendos, trills, vibrato...all of these are common musical devices for tension. In swing time, playing straight note figures is a nice way of adding tension.

Play straight note figures in swing time is a good way to make it sound bad not add tension, of course at fast tempos it will straigthen out. My theory on why Tony plays his pattern straight at slowish tempos(200-220) is that he wanted to have the horn player keep up with him and a horn player can't swing at 220 simply because the tounge doesn't have the chops.

[MatthewMeredith]

200 - 220 are slowish tempos???

[FockerTheLopper]

200 - 220 are slowish tempos???

For the swing to be flat yeah

[MatthewMeredith]

By "flat" do you mean just quarter notes on the ride?

[FockerTheLopper]

By "flat" do you mean just quarter notes on the ride?

No, flat means that the swung eighths naturally become straight eighths. At high speeds it becomes impossible to play the 8ths swung.
It isn't uncommon for slower tempo songs to swing 16ths, mid tempo songs ussually are more of a triplet feel(although it isn't an exact triplet, its more of a feeling you develop) and faster tempos are swung eighths. Of course there are no rules, alot of people swung 16ths at mid tempos(Jimmy Cobb and Tony Williams(sometimes) off the top of my head). Another thing about swinging is that you it isn't about the notes played its about how you play them.

[MatthewMeredith]

Ok I'm confused. At 200-220, your hi-hat foot is going pretty damn fast. Your ride hand would basically be going about the speed of a Derek Roddy blast if you started doing straight 8ths. Playing swung 8ths at that tempo is a hell of a lot easier than straight 8ths.

When you say that it's not the notes, but how you play them, I agree completely. However, I would say that it would be easier to make quarter notes sound swingin' than to play straight 8ths swingin'.

That stuff you said actually made no sense whatsoever.

[Josiah]

200.. half note = 100.

That's not bad actually. Turn it up and lay it down practice cd's have swung basslines at half note = 140 if i recall.

Remember matt, it's jazz hats only chicking the half note (2 and 4). Very doable.



Check out big vince swing in the buddy rich memorial. Quick clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1FDjflcDnCA

Some sick phrasing in that opening solo. Moderately speedy swing tune, but check out the absurd ghost notes towards the end. Notice they are straight and really tweak the feel.

[FockerTheLopper]

200.. half note = 100.

That's not bad actually. Turn it up and lay it down practice cd's have swung basslines at half note = 140 if i recall.

Remember matt, it's jazz hats only chicking the half note (2 and 4). Very doable.



Check out big vince swing in the buddy rich memorial. Quick clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1FDjflcDnCA

Some sick phrasing in that opening solo. Moderately speedy swing tune, but check out the absurd ghost notes towards the end. Notice they are straight and really tweak the feel.

Vinnie is just too incredible, chops and musicality thats what makes him stick out. I'm never disappointed by any of his vids/songs

[Aaron]

People get too caught up with the ride in fast-swinging tunes, with practice it's easy. It's the snare work that makes it interesting and challenging, not the pace. my 2c.

/wanders off

[FockerTheLopper]

People get too caught up with the ride in fast-swinging tunes, with practice it's easy. It's the snare work that makes it interesting and challenging, not the pace. my 2c.

/wanders off

Its how the snare fits in with everything else that makes in intresting

[Aaron]

Thanks for that, I really didn't realise

[Pleaseme]

Ba-zing!

Impossible to swing at higher tempos? Stating the bvious itt!

[Josiah]

Nah, not impossible. It just requires increasingly more skill as the tempo increases.

Steve Smith and Vinnie C. can swing at incredible tempos. They've said though they used to sit in a room with ride's and see who could go faster for hours. So.. haha that'll do it.

[MatthewMeredith]

200.. half note = 100.

That's not bad actually. Turn it up and lay it down practice cd's have swung basslines at half note = 140 if i recall.

Remember matt, it's jazz hats only chicking the half note (2 and 4). Very doable.



Check out big vince swing in the buddy rich memorial. Quick clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1FDjflcDnCA

Some sick phrasing in that opening solo. Moderately speedy swing tune, but check out the absurd ghost notes towards the end. Notice they are straight and really tweak the feel.

YES this is exactly what I'm saying. That swing at the end of the video is swung 8ths. Focker said that at hight speeds, the swung eighths naturally become straight eighths. At high speeds it becomes impossible to play the 8ths swung.

That Vinnie video wasn't reaaaally high speeds, but you get the idea. Playing straight 8ths at that speed would not only be much more difficult, but would completely kill the swing feel. If it gets to fast to swing your 8ths, play quarter notes and use your snare shots to make it feel swingy. Don't play straight 8ths on the ride.

[Pleaseme]

I would have thought that swing at much higher tempos just doesn't sound any good though. Swing = feel, and if it's too fast then there's no feel, just very flexible wrists. Amirite?

[FockerTheLopper]

YES this is exactly what I'm saying. That swing at the end of the video is swung 8ths. Focker said that at hight speeds,

That Vinnie video wasn't reaaaally high speeds, but you get the idea. Playing straight 8ths at that speed would not only be much more difficult, but would completely kill the swing feel. If it gets to fast to swing your 8ths, play quarter notes and use your snare shots to make it feel swingy. Don't play straight 8ths on the ride.

Impossible is nothing but when its a really really big generalization I say impossible, I'm sure people said alot of things Buddy Rich did were impossible.

[MatthewMeredith]

Yea I realize that but do you still think that you should play straight 8ths at very fast tempos?? (200-ish)

[FockerTheLopper]

Yea I realize that but do you still think that you should play straight 8ths at very fast tempos?? (200-ish)

If you think it sounds good yes, if not no. Simple as that, just because Tony did it doesn't mean I do it. I ussually do flatten it at lower speeds than I need to though, makes it easier to play 5's(not quintuples groupings of 5)

[Josiah]

If playing swing, the notes have to be swung. The distance between then can be smaller at higher tempos simply because everything gets scaled.

If you can't swing at hte higher tempo's, you gotta practice. Lotta times guys will switch between playing the quarters (wich are straight obviously) and snaking the swung 8ths inbetween more at random.

[FockerTheLopper]

If playing swing, the notes have to be swung. The distance between then can be smaller at higher tempos simply because everything gets scaled.

If you can't swing at hte higher tempo's, you gotta practice. Lotta times guys will switch between playing the quarters (wich are straight obviously) and snaking the swung 8ths inbetween more at random.

Swinging the notes isn't always the distance between though its also the way they're played but I doubt anyone can swing at 300 and there are songs faster than that.

[MatthewMeredith]

If you think it sounds good yes, if not no. Simple as that, just because Tony did it doesn't mean I do it. I ussually do flatten it at lower speeds than I need to though, makes it easier to play 5's(not quintuples groupings of 5)

I'm still stuck on that idea of straight 8ths on a fast swing. I've never heard ANY drummer do it, so if you have some audio you want to share, I'd be glad to hear some.


r|o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-|o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-|
h|----x-------x---|----x-------x---|
c|1---2---3---4---|1---2---3---4---|


Now imagine that your tempo is 200-ish... Like I said earlier, that's blast metal tempo on your ride. Give me a sec and I'll tab out the swung pattern and you can try both and see which is easier/sounds better.

Here it is swung (not triplet feel; I'm way to lazy to write that)


r|o---o--oo---o---|o---o--oo---o---|
h|----x-------x---|----x-------x---|
c|1---2---3---4---|1---2---3---4---|

[Josiah]

Swinging the notes isn't always the distance between though its also the way they're played but I doubt anyone can swing at 300 and there are songs faster than that.

That's a contradictory statement.

"Swinging" notes and "the way they're played" are identical things.

It's interjecting a feel into the note value by tweaking the value itself, aka, altering the distances inbetween the notes.
Wich is changing their releationship to each other, and thusly creating given feels or textures bsaed on the modifications of the values.


Example - flaming the right hand (hats) and left hand (snare) when playing blues is a useful trick to getting the backbeat to fall ever so slightly behind. Wich is paramount to creating the blues feel.

[FockerTheLopper]

I'm still stuck on that idea of straight 8ths on a fast swing. I've never heard ANY drummer do it, so if you have some audio you want to share, I'd be glad to hear some.


r|o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-|
h|----x-------x-------x-------x---|
c|1---2---3---4---1---2---3---4---|


Now imagine that your tempo is 200-ish... Like I said earlier, that's blast metal tempo on your ride. Give me a sec and I'll tab out the swung pattern and you can try both and see which is easier/sounds better.

Mr. PC - John Coltrane(pretty famous) is straight, so is Countdown(much better example but might be harder to find) so is Giant Steps(all same CD). 200ish most drummers swing it but there are no rules

By the way they're played I meant accenting how they sound, not where they are place in relation the click

[Aaron]

Cobham is a man to look at for speed in swing.

[MatthewMeredith]

Wow seriously Focker, listen to Mr. PC again. Elvin (pretty sure he played on Giant Steps) is one of the heaviest swingers I've heard. There are NO straight 8ths in there whatsoever.

Oh and no one can play straight 8ths with one hand at 300 bpm.

And trust me on that one; Giant Steps is one of my favorite jazz albums.

[FockerTheLopper]

Wow seriously Focker, listen to Mr. PC again. Elvin (pretty sure he played on Giant Steps) is one of the heaviest swingers I've heard. There are NO straight 8ths in there whatsoever.

Oh and no one can play straight 8ths with one hand at 300 bpm.

No Elvin isn't on that CD and I'm listening to all the songs as we speak. They are all straight... Whats the test, play along eighth notes, if they line up then he plays straight, the just sound swung because of the way they accent 2 and 4. Art Taylor is the drummer on most the songs on that CD, Jimmy Cobb played the ballad Naima. Anyway what are you argueing about the fact is that its straight eighths but feels like a swing song because of the articulation

If you aren't convince that Mr. PC is straight listen to Countdown, thats straight as you can get

I apologize during the softer part you can hear that its slightly swung, but at faster tempos it does get straight(again listen to countdown)

[MatthewMeredith]

Dude, you're thinking quarter notes. His hats are on 2 and 4... He quite often does quarter notes on the ride, but never straight 8ths. NEVER.

NP: Countdown.

[FockerTheLopper]

Dude, you're thinking quarter notes. His hats are on 2 and 4... He quite often does quarter notes on the ride, but never straight 8ths. NEVER.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what your talking about. He NEVER DOES QUATERS ON THE RIDE. He always does 3 eighth notes. They are swung. The whole CD has 3 consecutive 8th notes going. You said he often does quater notes on the ride. NO HE DOESN'T. You said never straight eighths, again wrong, listen to Countdown. If it was 50BPM slower they would be swung because thats the style but it isn't therefore they flatten out and become straight.

[MatthewMeredith]

When you say he does 3 eighth notes, do you mean in one beat? If so, that's eighth note triplets for ya buddy. Triplets = the foundation of swing.

[Josiah]

8ths at 300, devide by 2 is lets see 16ths at quarter =150.. hmm ya that would be mighty fast anyway..



I always like the, though almost cliche, triplet fills in the ballad type stuff. Haha it just gets me everytime.

Also got a fancy for usin note triplet licks in reggae stuff, really common but it sounds so cool.

[MatthewMeredith]

^^ Agreed. Hey Jos, do you think Art Taylor (I checked it) is playing straight 8ths on Countdown???

[FockerTheLopper]

When you say he does 3 eighth notes, do you mean in one beat? If so, that's eighth note triplets for ya buddy. Triplets = the foundation of swing.

Omg, your such an idiot. Do you understand what swing is? In notation do you know hows its written? Its written as 3 notes in a row. Counted 1 (+) 2 + 3 (+) 4 + where the notes inside the parenthesis aren't played. As you can see there are no triplets. And when I say 3 eighth notes I mean 3 eighth notes... Triplets aren't the foundation of swung EIGHTH NOTES ARE IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE THAT THEY ARE SWUNG AND HAVE A TRIPLET FEEL. While you are partially right you aren't right.

[MatthewMeredith]

Of course I know what ****ing swing is. I'm attending University in the Bachelor of music in Jazz Studies.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/MatthewMeredith/DrumWorksheet.jpg

That's a lesson I wrote up on helping people develop their swing feel. NOTICE THE TRIPLETS.

I realize he's playing three 8ths notes, but if you listen carefully you will realize that those three 8th notes are still in the right positions for a swing rhythm. They are not straight. If they were straight, there would be four of them.

[FockerTheLopper]

Of course I know what ****ing swing is. I'm attending University in the Bachelor of music in Jazz Studies.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k46/MatthewMeredith/DrumWorksheet.jpg

That's a lesson I wrote up on helping people develop their swing feel. NOTICE THE TRIPLETS.

I realize he's playing three 8ths notes, but if you listen carefully you will realize that those three 8th notes are still in the right positions for a swing rhythm. They are not straight. If they were straight, there would be four of them.

Okay so from now on were going to call swung eighths downbeat + the last 3rd triplet of the beat. Thats an exercise, if you read a chart and you happen to get notes, it isn't going to be like that, want to know why, it would take too long to write. Instead they would put something like "swing feel" on top and write 3 eighth notes at a time.

And take any triplet figure with your left hand/right foot and play it over swing at 300+, quite impossible to keep the triplet, right?

[MatthewMeredith]

Oh I realize that... there would just be plain old straight 8ths WRITTEN but it would say to PLAY it with a swing feel.

You're saying that Taylor PLAYS straight 8ths. That's ****ing ridiculous.

[FockerTheLopper]

Oh I realize that... there would just be plain old straight 8ths WRITTEN but it would say to PLAY it with a swing feel.

You're saying that Taylor PLAYS straight 8ths. That's ****ing ridiculous.

He does, they sound swung because of the accents.

[Josiah]

I don't have that track on hand. *shrug*

[Aaron]

another stupid focker arguement..

[StudioMagic]

Hey everybody :D
hows everyone doin? I read the conversation, very interesting comments...
just to clear up a little smoke though, Art Taylor..NEVER! played 8th notes hahaha
just gonna throw that out there, you may be getting 8th notes mixed up with swung triplets Focker...its a little bit naive to believe its impossible to swing at fast tempos, theres no way for me to prove this to you because you seem pretty set on the idea that they become 8th notes, but try to listen to some tony williams, check out for example 7 Steps to Heaven, if not that listen to any Jeff Hamilton....I believe its very possible to swing at high tempos

[FockerTheLopper]

another stupid focker arguement..

I'm argueing that the swing turns straight at higher tempos which [I thought] is common knowledge. It flattens out at higher tempos and eventually becomes straight, he can't comprehend that.
Studio you seem smart, now I'm sorry for not believing you right away but I want you to turn on countdown and play double stroke eighth notes along with his swing. Tell me how they sound.

[Aaron]

Maybe he can but he doesn't agree.

[MatthewMeredith]

Swing =/= Straight

[FockerTheLopper]

Swing =/= Straight

Do you agree that the swing closes up at higher tempos? Meaning that the first and second notes get closer to each other

[Aaron]

what you're arguing is stupid, focker. It's all relative: of course if it's quicker the notes'll be closer together, all notes will be no matter what feel or syncopation. But the feel wont change.

the faster you play, the faster the notes are

[StudioMagic]

EXACTLY! Good comment Aaron

[FockerTheLopper]

It doesn't focker. It's all relative: of course if it's quicker the notes'll be closer together, all notes will be no matter what feel or syncopation. But the feel wont change.

Exactly, its a swung feel but the accuall notes are straight foward if they were still swung it would be a cluster of notes on the end of the "swung triplet"

[MatthewMeredith]

Touche Aaron

[MatthewMeredith]

Exactly, its a swung feel but the accuall notes are straight foward if they were still swung it would be a cluster of notes on the end of the "swung triplet"

You CAN NOT get a SWUNG feel from playing STRAIGHT eights. No matter WHERE you put the accents.

[StudioMagic]

There are different kinds of swing feels, listen to elvin swing...his syncopation is completely open, so at a high tempo his swing would sound almost as if there 8th, but you slow down that recording and it will sound totally hip and swung....and then someone like Louis Bellson who has a very closed syncopation...at high tempos his would sound almost cluttered and be difficult to do, but it IS possible...anything is possible if you have the technical ability!

[FockerTheLopper]

There are different kinds of swing feels, listen to elvin swing...his syncopation is completely open, so at a high tempo his swing would sound almost as if there 8th, but you slow down that recording and it will sound totally hip and swung....and then someone like Louis Bellson who has a very closed syncopation...at high tempos his would sound almost cluttered and be difficult to do, but it IS possible...anything is possible if you have the technical ability!

Fair enough. I would keep argueing but theres no point, I know how I swing I know how my favorite drummers swing and you guys aren't going to change my mind. You guys know you swing you know how your favorite players swing. If we have the same players we could even be thinking that they are swinging differently when they aren't. Stupid arguement.

Studiomagic you should stick to these forums we need more members like you.

[StudioMagic]

thanks man:)... its my first time here

[MatthewMeredith]

Agreed.

[White Riot!]

Ringo swings quarters

[Josiah]

This was the video i was looking for..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9h5Ab4M2oc

Now that's friggin insane swingin

[Win A Rabbit]

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/petererskinefast.html

There's some nice fast swinging too.

[FockerTheLopper]

This was the video i was looking for..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9h5Ab4M2oc

Now that's friggin insane swingin

Wow...

[jiashen]

haha that was intense. He looked kind of like the prodigious pianist in Shine where he went mad halfway through a performance.

[Det_Nosnip]

Play straight note figures in swing time is a good way to make it sound bad not add tension, Do you even listen to jazz? It's a common rhythmical device, most often used in the form of 16ths. What do you do when you see 16ths on a jazz chart? Swing them? :lol:



of course at fast tempos it will straigthen out. My theory on why Tony plays his pattern straight at slowish tempos(200-220) is that he wanted to have the horn player keep up with him and a horn player can't swing at 220 simply because the tounge doesn't have the chops.

Past a certain point, even if you can technically pull it off, swing starts to sound awkward at fast tempos. Inbetween 160 and 200 BPM (quarter note) is where some believe you should start to straighten out.

[TTTSNB]

This was the video i was looking for..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9h5Ab4M2oc

Now that's friggin insane swingin
I think I'm going to cry now. :p

[FockerTheLopper]

Do you even listen to jazz? It's a common rhythmical device, most often used in the form of 16ths. What do you do when you see 16ths on a jazz chart? Swing them? :lol:




Past a certain point, even if you can technically pull it off, swing starts to sound awkward at fast tempos. Inbetween 160 and 200 BPM (quarter note) is where some believe you should start to straighten out.

No such thing as swing 16ths(and don't say half time swung eighths), by straight I mean eighths, yeah 16ths can be used but ussually when someone says straight they reffer to eighths only. Your right though.

[Josiah]

No such thing as swing 16ths(and don't say half time swung eighths)


Yes, there is. Very much so.

Keep in mind, any note value you can be swung.

[FockerTheLopper]

Yes, there is. Very much so.

Keep in mind, any note value you can be swung.

I'll take your word for it.

[Aaron]

A single hit can be swung if its contextualised.

[Det_Nosnip]

Yes, there is. Very much so.

Keep in mind, any note value you can be swung.

True, but at any reasonable tempo over 100 BPM, those 16ths would be at the point where 8ths would be leveling off straight anyways, and sound awkward if you tried to swing them.

People play triplets in straight time; what's to stop them from playing straight 8ths in swing? It's essentially a 2:3 against the triplet pulse and something to be used sparingly for sure, but it IS used, particularly in solos. When it comes to jazz, anything goes...it is simply a matter of how you use what you use.

[Josiah]

Indeed. I was thinking of swung 16ths in more the hip-hop/dance context - ?uestlove talks about that in interviews. Also in the funk context, Moore is crazy good at playing that greasey feelin funky stuff. Totally swung out 16ths or otherwise...

[some jive turkey]

John Riley states that the ride pattern will flatten from a triplets to a straighter feel somewhere around 270-300. I agree with that.

That first vinnie video still didn't really seem straightened out to me, the tempo was probably about 260.


In that Erskine video , did it look like he was using Moeller on the ride? Does anyone use Moeller for uptempo jazz riding? That was about 320bpm, he makes it look so easy.

[Josiah]

he makes it look so easy.


Haha that happens after 40 years of dedicated playing.


The question is, what do you think of his phrasing when he plays?

[Det_Nosnip]

John Riley states that the ride pattern will flatten from a triplets to a straighter feel somewhere around 270-300. I agree with that.

That first vinnie video still didn't really seem straightened out to me, the tempo was probably about 260.


In that Erskine video , did it look like he was using Moeller on the ride? Does anyone use Moeller for uptempo jazz riding? That was about 320bpm, he makes it look so easy.

He was mostly just using his fingers...I wouldn't really call what he was doing "Moeller" per se.

[Flamacue]

I reckon anyone who normally uses moeller will instinctively use it, or a variation of it depending what tempo they're playing. To my eyes, erskine is still making very small moeller motions from his hand, and between that and his finger work ( which is doing most of the work) he's able to create that smoothness, speed and continuity of the time. The faster we need to play, the smaller the moeller motion becomes anyway.

[Det_Nosnip]

True - good point.

[some jive turkey]

Haha that happens after 40 years of dedicated playing.


The question is, what do you think of his phrasing when he plays?

I have been a lover of Erskine's playing for a while, actually. The way he covers bop/funk/and brazillian stuff about equally well, really appeals to me. He has extremely tastful articulation, he never showboats, but always shines. He is very concious about the musical context of what he plays, even as the context shifts from moment to moment via improvization. Some of the most mature drumming out there, imo.

[TTTSNB]

^ Agreed. I love how he can put so much feel into a funk/ second line groove.

[Loyton]

Oh man, erskine really inspired me when I saw his clinic. He signed my jazz shirt and I think even saw me play, and he gave me like 3 pairs of his sig. sticks.

My lucky jazz shirt though. That man is a legend.

[Det_Nosnip]

^ Agreed. I love how he can put so much feel into a funk/ second line groove.

Hmm...don't believe I've heard Erskine play a second line. Nobody plays 'em like Stanton Moore, though!

[TTTSNB]

Hmm...don't believe I've heard Erskine play a second line. Nobody plays 'em like Stanton Moore, though!
Not so much a second line groove as a second line feel. He does this one on a video that's on youtube.

[some jive turkey]

Hmm...don't believe I've heard Erskine play a second line. Nobody plays 'em like Stanton Moore, though!

Johhny Vidacovich's second line would have Stanton's for breakfast. I've watched them both live and there's no contest, ....none.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=55447755

Vidacovich is a top shelf player.

[Josiah]

^

"Invalid Friend ID.
This user has either cancelled their membership, or their account has been deleted."

[Det_Nosnip]

go back to his profile and grab the myspace link...the url you used won't work because we're not you.

[Josiah]

Ahhh I knew somethin was fishy!

[some jive turkey]

Oops sorry about that link,
And now in honor of my 1000th post
try this:

http://www.myspace.com/johnnyvidacovich