Is Satan evil?

[roll dem bones]

Just to let you know, I'm not coming into this with some sort of purpose. I'm just curious because I don't know much about it.

I can think of two instances in the Bible where Satan is mentioned and apparently does something that God doesn't like. He gives Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil, of course, and I recall a passage where he offers Jesus bread when he's starving.

So, my question is, where is he evil? I know numerous passages where God executes countless people and animals on a whim, but what about Satan? Where does he commit mass genocides, eats babies, rapes women, kicks puppies, etc.?

[Jude]

I can think of two instances in the Bible where Satan is mentioned and apparently does something that God doesn't like. He gives Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil, of course, and I recall a passage where he offers Jesus bread when he's starving.


Those two are seen as evil because in the first case, the knowledge of good and evil destroyed their innocence and perfect relationship with God, while in the second case Jesus was fasting and Satan was tempting him to break it.

He did other various evil stuff too, such as torturing Job to get him to turn his back on God.

[griftadan]

no actually god did all that stuff to Job.

[Mr. Ron]

I don't see him as evil. Just a vengeful fallen angel. Paradise lost explains it well.

[Jude]

no actually god did all that stuff to Job.

Go back and check your facts bro.

[griftadan]

um no satan put god up to it and god did it to prove that Job would still be faithful in god. or allowed it to happen atleast. my bible knowledge is rusty at best.

[Jude]

um no satan put god up to it and god did it to prove that Job would still be faithful in god. or allowed it to happen atleast. my bible knowledge is rusty at best.

...which would be why you aren't aware that Satan did all that stuff.

[Surf]

paradise lost does explain it, but its a fictional account (if we take the bible as fact, or at least pertaining to fact). similar case with dante. lucifer does appear evil in paradise lost. he conspires against both god and humanity.
if we take hell to be synonymous with evil

"which way i fly is hell, myself am hell"

[Mr. Ron]

Well, god knew he would be evil in the first place so who really is the evil one?

[Jude]

Well, god knew he would be evil in the first place so who really is the evil one?

If free will is better than not free will, then creating something that chooses to be evil isn't evil. Or something like that. I'm not big on philosophy.

[Mr. Ron]

If free will is better than not free will, then creating something that chooses to be evil isn't evil. Or something like that. I'm not big on philosophy.

God knows all. Past, present and future. He obviously saw that Satan would take such a road.

[roll dem bones]

Those two are seen as evil because in the first case, the knowledge of good and evil destroyed their innocence and perfect relationship with God, while in the second case Jesus was fasting and Satan was tempting him to break it.

He did other various evil stuff too, such as torturing Job to get him to turn his back on God.

But how perfect could a relationship be if they were just living in blind ignorance?

So Jesus with the fasting, okay, and he tortured Job. That's two things, and the former really isn't that bad. Still, where does he do the truly evil stuff?

[Jude]

God knows all. Past, present and future. He obviously saw that Satan would take such a road.

But the argument goes that free will is a better thing than NOT free will, for lack of a better phrase, so that God by giving Satan free will was doing something better than if he had just made Satan involuntarily a nice guy.

But how perfect could a relationship be if they were just living in blind ignorance?
Ignorance is bliss. I don't know.


So Jesus with the fasting, okay, and he tortured Job. That's two things, and the former really isn't that bad. Still, where does he do the truly evil stuff?
You know, the whole tempting humanity away from God, mainly. Same idea as with Job.

[Cain]

Dante's Inferno makes it pretty clear that the title of "King of Hell" is little more than a bitterly ironic title, actually. Satan as depicted by him is little more than a trapped, teeth-gnashing, mindless instrument of God's will. A 2,000-feet tall beast with 1,000 feet of him submerged in the ice created by the wind of his own wings, which constantly flap but take him nowhere, with three hideous faces that perpetually chew on Brutus, Cassius and Judas Iscariot for all eternity, with no sense of personality or will attached to him at all in the poem save for the blood-offal he weeps from his six eyes, Satan as depicted by the creator of the archetypical Hell we think of is absolutely nothing, all at once the furthest-down, most highly damned inmate of his own domain, and his entrustment of that domain a foolish parody.

Milton's view of Satan is similar. While he doesn't strip the Devil of all personality the way Dante does, he still makes it very clear that any attempt at perverting God's creation by Satan and his cohorts is paradoxical because anything and everything that they do is well within the sphere of God's infallible control--therefore, Hell is not a domain of evil or some kind of anti-Heaven, nor is Satan some sort of anti-God that is constantly warring with him over the souls of men. God makes the final judgement on where all men go, and Hell (and by extension Satan) exists solely for the purpose of executing His will even in the devil's chastisement and exile away from His sight. The idea that Satan is some sort of supreme incarnation of the manmade concept of evil is likely the stuff of Inquisition-era phobias about demonic possession and is most often found perpetuated today in pop-culture treatments of demons found in everything from the Exorcist to Constantine...hardly credible sources.

Pre-Renaissance, everybody understood that it was men who landed themselves in sin by either failing to subordinate their will to their reason and their faith or abandoning the faith entirely by willfully sinning (which is why in Dante's hell incontinence--encompassing lust, gluttony, etc.--is punished less severely than willful sins, and this is also why there are no demons to be found outside the sixth circle, which is technically immediately within the walls of Dis, Hell's city), and Hell was the place they went to be punished for that failure. Hell may be a parody of Heaven but it sure isn't its opposite number. Satan, just like everything else God has created, is an instrument of his will and has no actual power to do anything outside of his wishes.

That's how I see it, anyhow.

[VomitStainedCretin]

But the argument goes that free will is a better thing than NOT free will, for lack of a better phrase, so that God by giving Satan free will was doing something better than if he had just made Satan involuntarily a nice guy.


Ignorance is bliss. I don't know.

Fvck Free Will. And ignorance is only bliss if youre incredibly stupid.

[Surf]

Milton's view of Satan is similar...

IMO, the Satan Milton wrote was a much more sympathetic character than, as you say, Dante's mindless version, or the Bible's shrouded tempter. he attributed Lucifer near heroic (in the Greek/tragic sense of the word) qualities (hubris and pathos) to a character that, pre renaissance was seen as little more than just the epitome of evil, i.e. closer to Dante's version.

in Milton and Dante, Satan's presentation is hugely different. but neither has Satan as completely evil, certainly not the epitomy of evil that many contemporaries beliefs suggest.

however, both Milton and Dante are irrelevant. these are works of fiction. neither Milton or Dante were prophets, and as such, their views do not represent christian dogma, merely interpretations of it. the only possible source to decide this is the bible. it is the source of christian dogma, and as such, any assumptions and characteristics attributed to such a character should be drawn from that.

Milton and Dante are merely interpretations, as opposed to the 'fact' that the bible presents itself as.

[AA-12]

I don't see him as evil. Just a vengeful fallen angel. Paradise lost explains it well.

Yeah. He's just a symbol (no offence to Christians and whatnot) of primal and animalistic feelings. Whether that is evil or not it's up to your beliefs. I personally don't even see him as bad.

[griftadan]

...which would be why you aren't aware that Satan did all that stuff.

i don't know why i made an arguement for a technical fact in a book i don't believe in.

[LegionsofMarduk]

Depends on your definition of evil.

[Jon]

If metalheads liked God then I can assure you Satan wouldn't be the scapegoat.

[roll dem bones]

however, both Milton and Dante are irrelevant. these are works of fiction. neither Milton or Dante were prophets, and as such, their views do not represent christian dogma, merely interpretations of it. the only possible source to decide this is the bible. it is the source of christian dogma, and as such, any assumptions and characteristics attributed to such a character should be drawn from that.

Milton and Dante are merely interpretations, as opposed to the 'fact' that the bible presents itself as.

This is what I was kind of getting at. I'm interested in how the Bible presents Satan, not interpretations - although interpretations can be fun to read. Did the Bible just show him as "against God" or whatever, like in those previously mentioned examples? Is that his only "sin"? Does he actually slaughter and rape people? IIRC, Revelations paints a pretty negative picture of him, but I don't recall anywhere else in the Bible where he acted in a similar manner.

Or does the Bible not actually portray him as "evil", but more like a minor trickster-type character?

[Surf]

i think its isiah that provides the basis for miltons story, it talks alot about the fall of satan. but i haven't read the bible properly, only select parts. some one else is better qualified to answer this question, preferably someone, christian or aetheist, who has read and understood the bible.

[Jude]

I haven't read enough of the Bible to be able to say for sure where the idea of Satan as the ultimate evil comes from...but it didn't just come out of nowhere, I'm fairly sure. I'll get on it later.

[JoshIsNumber3]

I don't see him as evil. Just a vengeful fallen angel. Paradise lost explains it well.


Paradise Lost does not explain anything, it is fiction.



Most of society's presupposed notions of Satan and what Hell is like etc. are unfounded, they do not result from the Bible but are instead ideas of grandeur and sensationalism.

There is no mention of Hell being fire and brimstone, what is referred as the Lake of Fire is the punishment for Satan, realistically what is Hell is simply total seperation from God in any form.

[croniun]

I don't see him as evil. Just a vengeful fallen angel. Paradise lost explains it well.

I hope you aren't saying Milton believed Satan wasn't evil...

There is no mention of Hell being fire and brimstone, what is referred as the Lake of Fire is the punishment for Satan, realistically what is Hell is simply total seperation from God in any form

Well it does mention in the gospel a man in hell asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue...but maybe that's just symbolical.

[JoshIsNumber3]

I hope you aren't saying Milton believed Satan wasn't evil...



Well it does mention in the gospel a man in hell asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue...but maybe that's just symbolical.


People need to realize that there is a lot of symbolism in the Bible, especially in the New Testament. The scholars and the story tellers of the time needed a way to hide their message so that they would not be a direct target of persecution from the people around them.

The mentioning of the man in hell asking for water, and the never ending fire, and the worms that never rest, etc. are symbolism explaining that ultimate seperation from God is total and unceasing.

[Surf]

realistically what is Hell is simply total seperation from God in any form.

again, subjective. this is more reflective of the post renaissance idea of hell being an absence of god, suggested both by Milton and, earlier, in Marlowe's Dr Faustus. the bible is never specific (as far as i know) as to the postioning of hell as either symbolic or physical. like much of the bible, it is obscure enough to allow for much reader interpretation.

I hope you aren't saying Milton believed Satan wasn't evil...

as i said earlier, Milton's postioning on Satan is obscure. on one hand, he is shown to be committing what could be considered evil deeds (disobeying/warring with god, tempting Adam and Eve). however, he does make the character of Satan more more sympathetic. he gives him properties that are often given to classical Greek tragic heroes.

[JoshIsNumber3]

From what I've researched on, the only place that the Old Testament refers to in the afterlife is the location of the resting waiting for the Messiah to come and judge them accordingly.


In the New Testament, there is the mentioning of the fire and brimstone which was created for Lucifer as his punishment, but the Bible does not extrapolate outside of metaphorical terms, the fate that is not Paradise or Heaven.


I'll be back, I have class :D:D

[TojesDolan]

Satan seems OK, there's got to exist evil in order for good to exist. Nonetheless, I hjust don't support the possesing bodies and stuff like that, but otherwise the devil has it's function in the out-of-body experiences.

[Surf]

....needed a way to hide their message...

i wouldn't go as far as to say that they were hiding their message. the way i see it, is that writing in an obscure fashion is necessary when writing what would become such an important text. if they were to write in a more prose like manner, more story like, then would people so readily believe in it? by writing in a manner that allows for much more personal interpretation, they differentiate the book from other works of literature. people may not so eagerly place belief in writing if it appears much more like fiction.

That and made up.

oic. that's personal and subjective beliefs for you. but it is widely accepted as fact that a man named Jesus DID exist, whether or not he was the son of god is a question of personal belief

[RockAndRoll]

oic. that's personal and subjective beliefs for you. but it is widely accepted as fact that a man named Jesus DID exist, whether or not he was the son of god is a question of personal belief

Well I deleted the post caused I figured I probably shouldn't get into this in this thread, it's better saved for the christianity thread so if you want to see my explanation go there in about a minute.

[JoshIsNumber3]

I would argue that in a world where the people around you are very obviously being oppressed, tortured, murdered, and exiled, but you still have the need and desire to send your message, you are going to do it in a way that is not very obvious but those who you are talking to will know of what you speak.

My example Revelation and the symbolism that aligns itself with the Roman Empire and such.

[Surf]

there's a lot of truth in that, but you must remember that the bible was not written all at once. not even all of the new testament. the final few chapters were written both when Christianity was accepted (to some degree) in certain areas of the world. the old testament was written hundreds of years before, it is claimed, by the prophets themselves.

Revelation would be an extreme example, basically because it is nothing other than symbolic, as well as being one of the only books of the new testament to deal with things to come, rather than past events

[croniun]

there's a lot of truth in that, but you must remember that the bible was not written all at once. not even all of the new testament. the final few chapters were written both when Christianity was accepted (to some degree) in certain areas of the world. the old testament was written hundreds of years before, it is claimed, by the prophets themselves.

When you say "when Christianity was accepted" what time period are you referring to? I'm sure you don't mean around the time of Constantine/Tiberius because the writing was finished long before that.

[Surf]

i'm talking about paul fleeing and being settled when he wrote his letters. but i may be wrong, my biblical history isn't great.

[croniun]

i'm talking about paul fleeing and being settled when he wrote his letters. but i may be wrong, my biblical history isn't great.

That was in the first century AD.

[Surf]

right, but are they not part of the bible?

[B Radd]

Just to let you know, I'm not coming into this with some sort of purpose. I'm just curious because I don't know much about it.

I can think of two instances in the Bible where Satan is mentioned and apparently does something that God doesn't like. He gives Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil, of course, and I recall a passage where he offers Jesus bread when he's starving.

So, my question is, where is he evil? I know numerous passages where God executes countless people and animals on a whim, but what about Satan? Where does he commit mass genocides, eats babies, rapes women, kicks puppies, etc.?

Lucifer became Satan because he said in his heart that he was going to rise above God, so God sent him to the lowest, where he became Satan.

[B Radd]

no actually god did all that stuff to Job.

Satan persuaded God to do so. obviously God being Almighty wouldn't give in to persuasions, but He knew that He could bless Job and others with what bad could happen to Job. which was well worth the bad things that happened to him.

[Surf]

to be honest, much of the question is subjective:

define evil: is it immoral actions? is it merely an action against god?

define satan: is he the fallen angel? is he the personification of evil deeds?

even then its subjective. the question is nigh on unanswerable. you may as well say 'Is God good?'

[JoshIsNumber3]

Satan persuaded God to do so. obviously God being Almighty wouldn't give in to persuasions, but He knew that He could bless Job and others with what bad could happen to Job. which was well worth the bad things that happened to him.


The whole book of Job is based on two principles

1) faith in God
2) the world around you matters not

[B Radd]

The whole book of Job is based on two principles

1) faith in God
2) the world around you matters not

yes. and how God will bless you more of what He puts you through.

[roll dem bones]

There is no mention of Hell being fire and brimstone, what is referred as the Lake of Fire is the punishment for Satan, realistically what is Hell is simply total seperation from God in any form.

So then is hell really punishment? What's seperation from God really like? The way I see it, living in ignorance, being physically unable to experience the "sinful" pleasures available on earth, and being enslaved by a supreme diety is real damnation. This may be a little off topic, but from what I know of heaven - it reminds me of A Brave New World. Anyone else get this vibe?

People need to realize that there is a lot of symbolism in the Bible, especially in the New Testament.

I can see the New Testament, since Jesus actually states much of it is symbolism, but I thought that the Old Testament was written to be literal - in every sense of the word.

Revelation would be an extreme example, basically because it is nothing other than symbolic, as well as being one of the only books of the new testament to deal with things to come, rather than past events

I thought Revelation was an actual description of exactly what would happen?

Lucifer became Satan because he said in his heart that he was going to rise above God, so God sent him to the lowest, where he became Satan.

That's it? He didn't gouge out the eyes of his fellow angels and create an army of demonic kittens to ravage heaven? He just said "Golly gee, I'd sure like to rise above God."?

Satan persuaded God to do so. obviously God being Almighty wouldn't give in to persuasions, but He knew that He could bless Job and others with what bad could happen to Job. which was well worth the bad things that happened to him.

So Satan himself didn't actually do anything bad, right? He just made a suggestion?

This suggestion, along with the suggestion to Adam and Eve, and the suggestion to Jesus with the bread... has Satan ever done anything??

define evil: is it immoral actions? is it merely an action against god?

even then its subjective. the question is nigh on unanswerable. you may as well say 'Is God good?'

Well, evil is spelled out in the Bible, right? Thou shall not murder and all that fun stuff. The Bible defines morals and says what is immoral. I guess it also says that actions against God are immoral, but it lists a whole lot of other stuff.

When I was posting this thread, I did have in my mind wondering whether God was actually a good guy.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Yeah let's worship Satan.

[Dinosawesome]

Although I don't really agree with the point I'm about to make, I will still make it for the sake of intelligent dicussion:

Assuming that God and the Devil are actual beings- what are the chances that God's war in Heaven gave him the authority to essentially "rewrite the history books", just on a much larger scale...?

[JoshIsNumber3]

So then is hell really punishment? What's seperation from God really like? The way I see it, living in ignorance, being physically unable to experience the "sinful" pleasures available on earth, and being enslaved by a supreme diety is real damnation. This may be a little off topic, but from what I know of heaven - it reminds me of A Brave New World. Anyone else get this vibe?


The impression that could be given is that you are given the knowledge of what you rejected, it's not any sort of tangible reward or anything like that, but just being blessed by the love of God and such. To put it in practical terms, if you're not a slave to God, you're a slave to something else anyways.


I can see the New Testament, since Jesus actually states much of it is symbolism, but I thought that the Old Testament was written to be literal - in every sense of the word.


That is more than likely the case.


I thought Revelation was an actual description of exactly what would happen?


You can argue either way, it's hard to argue for what would be prophecy but there are a lot of things in the New Testament which occur parallel to what is being described.



So Satan himself didn't actually do anything bad, right? He just made a suggestion?


Satan isn't "bad" because he did anything against Mankind, he is Satan because he is the epitome of the love of self over God.


Well, evil is spelled out in the Bible, right? Thou shall not murder and all that fun stuff. The Bible defines morals and says what is immoral. I guess it also says that actions against God are immoral, but it lists a whole lot of other stuff.


A lot of the rules that were written in the Old Testament were laws that the tribes of Israel had to abide by to be clean and pure in God's eyes.


When I was posting this thread, I did have in my mind wondering whether God was actually a good guy.


Why wouldn't He be?

[Jude]

I thought Revelation was an actual description of exactly what would happen?


It's not really clear what it is. A lot of people think it's meant as a political allegory of sorts.

That's it? He didn't gouge out the eyes of his fellow angels and create an army of demonic kittens to ravage heaven? He just said "Golly gee, I'd sure like to rise above God."?
Again, it's not really made clear.



So Satan himself didn't actually do anything bad, right? He just made a suggestion?

No, he, with the permission of God, tortured Job, attempting to make Job turn against God.

[Africa]

Has anyone read Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible?

[JoshIsNumber3]

Honestly, it's not that great of a read.

[Jude]

Has anyone read Anton Lavey's Satanic Bible?

From what I've heard it's pretty stupid and nothing to do with Satan anyway.

[Africa]

From what I've heard it's pretty stupid and nothing to do with Satan anyway.
Honestly, it's not that great of a read.
Exactly, it's a horrible Rand ripoff I rather read The Fountainhead again than read it uhg.

[JoshIsNumber3]

Basically he's preaching self-indulgance and instant gratification.

You don't have to think hard to come up with how great the world would be with that.

[roll dem bones]

To put it in practical terms, if you're not a slave to God, you're a slave to something else anyways.

Yes, but a free thinking slave at least. As I understand it, there will be no sin in heaven. Yet, everyone will be living in ecstacy. No one will be allowed to sin, thus meaning there's a good chance we won't be able to remember details about our "sinful" lives and all that free will is gone.

At least, that's how I look at it with the minimal knowledge of heaven that I have.

When I was posting this thread, I did have in my mind wondering whether God was actually a good guy.
Why wouldn't He be?

Well good guys may be required to perform some necessary evils. Sometimes. But the evil performed by the bad guy should outweight this necessary evil. That's why he's the bad guy, he's really evil. The thing I don't understand is when you have a "good guy" who carries out mass genocide, and a "bad guy" who's greatest feat was suggesting to two naked teenagers that they eat an apple... well, I wonder if the good guy is really all that good.

I'm not saying Satan is a good guy, don't get me wrong.

It's not really clear what it is. A lot of people think it's meant as a political allegory of sorts.

That makes sense. Since it does talk about the fall of Babylon... and Babylon doesn't exist anymore.

But you do have to admit that there's a good number of religious people - Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike - that see this as literal and want this apocalypse to happen.

No, he, with the permission of God, tortured Job, attempting to make Job turn against God.

But God did infact give him the OK, right? If your in a gang and ask the leader, "If I punch Bob, he'll probably join our gang. Should I do it?" The leader could very well say, "No. We can get him to join through other, less violent ways." Or, of course, he could say, "Him him hard. Multiple times. And if he doesn't cave in, shoot him." A subordinate is just that - a subordinate. If Gabriel made the suggestion, couldn't God have said, "Very well, go torture him to test his faith, Gabriel."?

[Jude]

But you do have to admit that there's a good number of religious people - Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike - that see this as literal and want this apocalypse to happen.
Considering Jews and Muslims would not consider Revelations a legitimate part of their scripture, I don't think THEY would expect or want this to happen.



But God did infact give him the OK, right? If your in a gang and ask the leader, "If I punch Bob, he'll probably join our gang. Should I do it?" The leader could very well say, "No. We can get him to join through other, less violent ways." Or, of course, he could say, "Him him hard. Multiple times. And if he doesn't cave in, shoot him." A subordinate is just that - a subordinate. If Gabriel made the suggestion, couldn't God have said, "Very well, go torture him to test his faith, Gabriel."?
God gave him the OK, presumably because he knew that Job would stick with him, or was betting on it, or whatever.

[lunchforthesky]

does the three big monotheistic religioins not hinge on the assumption that satan is evil. i personally think that like god he doesnt exist at all. btu im fairly sure that the withuot the devil being the great evil figure the whole religion is rather pointless. as you act good not only to recieve the grace of god but to avoid the wrath of satan

[JoshIsNumber3]

Yes, but a free thinking slave at least. As I understand it, there will be no sin in heaven. Yet, everyone will be living in ecstacy. No one will be allowed to sin, thus meaning there's a good chance we won't be able to remember details about our "sinful" lives and all that free will is gone.

At least, that's how I look at it with the minimal knowledge of heaven that I have.



The thing is that there is little mentioned in the Bible about Heaven or paradise, just the fact that it exists more or less.

[roll dem bones]

Considering Jews and Muslims would not consider Revelations a legitimate part of their scripture, I don't think THEY would expect or want this to happen.

Oops. Forget I said that. I got confused for a second.:amaze:

[roll dem bones]

God gave him the OK, presumably because he knew that Job would stick with him, or was betting on it, or whatever.

But he still gave the okay. I'm sure Job didn't like it too much.

as you act good not only to recieve the grace of god but to avoid the wrath of satan

Wrath of Satan?

The thing is that there is little mentioned in the Bible about Heaven or paradise, just the fact that it exists more or less.

Wasn't the "no sin" thing mentioned somewhere?

[Surf]

does the three big monotheistic religioins not hinge on the assumption that satan is evil. i personally think that like god he doesnt exist at all. btu im fairly sure that the withuot the devil being the great evil figure the whole religion is rather pointless. as you act good not only to recieve the grace of god but to avoid the wrath of satan

no, they are far more based on abelief in a god as opposed to a fear of an evil figure.

Wasn't the "no sin" thing mentioned somewhere?

who's to say heaven can even be expressed through earthly feelings? there is no overt description perhaps because humanity isn't equipped with the tools/ideas to fully appreciate the concept of heaven.

[JoshIsNumber3]

Exactly, while there is probably no sin in Heaven, it would be useless anyways to have a description of it because we wouldn't be able to comprehend it.

[BassRevelation]

So Satan himself didn't actually do anything bad, right? He just made a suggestion?

This suggestion, along with the suggestion to Adam and Eve, and the suggestion to Jesus with the bread... has Satan ever done anything??
I wish you would read in context.

Satan offered Jesus bread during a 40 day fast, so obviously He was being tempted. Satan told adam and eve to eat from the tree after God told them not to, so they went against God.

[The Runner]

A better question would be, is santa evil? They both have the same letters in their name!

[roll dem bones]

I wish you would read in context.

Satan offered Jesus bread during a 40 day fast, so obviously He was being tempted. Satan told adam and eve to eat from the tree after God told them not to, so they went against God.

Call me crazy, but I believe that genocide is just a *tad* bit worse than tempting someone during a fast.

[Surf]

Call me crazy, but I believe that genocide is just a *tad* bit worse than tempting someone during a fast.

you really are missing the point of religion/satan. this isn't worth arguing; satan is niether responsible for evil, nor a cause/result of it. God's wrath varies widley in implementation/judgement from book to book, and the two aren't really comparable: Satan is not a divine entitiy, and who's to say God's workings are meant to be understood by us mere mortals. I'm not even particularly religious, but even i can see that

[BassRevelation]

Call me crazy, but I believe that genocide is just a *tad* bit worse than tempting someone during a fast.

the bread wasnt even the issue. He tried to find insecurity in Him by making Him prove He was the Messiah.

Besides, no sin is worse than another. It all despises God. Then again, thats what evil is.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Could god be lieing to you?

[roll dem bones]

]and who's to say God's workings are meant to be understood by us mere mortals. I'm not even particularly religious, but even i can see that

I'm really tired of this "argument". If his working really were impossibly to be understood by us mere mortals, the Bible would be two paragraphs long. One paragraph giving us some basic rules, and the second paragraph saying that God's plan is too complex for us to even begin to understand.

As far as I'm aware the Bible isn't like that. It tries to explain stuff, and gives lots of examples.

the bread wasnt even the issue. He tried to find insecurity in Him by making Him prove He was the Messiah.

Well, duh.

Besides, no sin is worse than another. It all despises God. Then again, thats what evil is.

I beg to differ. How can you even say this? Are you telling me that Hitler's sin against humanity is no worse than a little kid's sin when he shoplifts a candy bar?

[Hot Karl]

John 8:44 explains everything.

[roll dem bones]

John 8:44 just says he's a liar. Several times. It explains nothing, and gives no examples.

[Hot Karl]

John 8:44 just says he's a liar. Several times. It explains nothing, and gives no examples.

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - Jesus speaking to the Jews. :)

[roll dem bones]

Yes that is the passage I was referring to. The passage you said "explained everything."

[Hot Karl]

Yes that is the passage I was referring to. The passage you said "explained everything."
Well it says the Jews are satan's children, and satan is the father of lying and murdering.

[roll dem bones]

I didn't ask for your anti-semitic idiocy. Don't give it to me.

[Hot Karl]

I didn't ask for your anti-semitic idiocy. Don't give it to me.

Blahh I didn't ask for blaaahhh. Does it or does it not say satan was a murderer and a liar.

[roll dem bones]

It does. But the Bible also says that Earth was created before the sun.

[Surf]

Well it says the Jews are satan's children, and satan is the father of lying and murdering.

and the old testament says the jews are god's people. jacob was christned israel, after being belssed by god.
this is a poor weak arguement, inferred from a slight suggestion of whom jesus happened to be talking to.
Attn: jesus was a jew. he was just as likely talking about his own parentage, does this mean the virgin mary is evil?

[Hot Karl]

and the old testament says the jews are god's people. jacob was christned israel, after being belssed by god.
this is a poor weak arguement, inferred from a slight suggestion of whom jesus happened to be talking to.
Attn: jesus was a jew. he was just as likely talking about his own parentage, does this mean the virgin mary is evil?

The Jews say they are God's chosen people, however they broke God's covenant by rejecting Christ. Attn: Jesus was not jewish.

[Surf]

Attn: Jesus was not jewish.

wrong. you fail at facts.

how was jesus not jewish? born to jewish parents. practiced jewish religion. prayed to the jewish god.

[JoshIsNumber3]

I beg to differ. How can you even say this? Are you telling me that Hitler's sin against humanity is no worse than a little kid's sin when he shoplifts a candy bar?



I can say that because in the Bible it blatantly says that all sin is equal to the eyes of God.

The Jews say they are God's chosen people, however they broke God's covenant by rejecting Christ. Attn: Jesus was not jewish.

Attn: Jesus was Jewish, get the **** out with your bigotry

[Hot Karl]

I can say that because in the Bible it blatantly says that all sin is equal to the eyes of God.



Attn: Jesus was Jewish, get the **** out with your bigotry

Dumbass, the original Israelites were not a semitic people. Get out of here with your stupidity.


wrong. you fail at facts.

how was jesus not jewish? born to jewish parents. practiced jewish religion. prayed to the jewish god.
Jesus strongly disagreed with the pharisees, Jesus was born from one host, the Virgin Mary, Jesus prayed to the Jewish God? Jesus IS GOD!

Attn: SUCK MA BALLLZZZ!!!

[Surf]

if he can't accept that jesus was jewish, what will he be able to understand?

attn: JESUS WAS JEWISH accept this and move on. it is pretty much indisputable. ask anyone with any religious knowledge (yourself excepted of course). just because jesus disagreed with the phraisees, does not revoke his semitism.

jesus is only god if you subscribe to christianity. if judasim or islam, he was merely a prophet

[Hot Karl]

if he can't accept that jesus was jewish, what will he be able to understand?

1. Jesus strongly disagreed with the Jews
2. Jesus called the Jews the children of Satan.
3. If Jesus was Jewish it would make HIM Satan.
4. There were different Israelite tribes, the Jews decided to inter-mix with others.
5. Dumbass

[Surf]

you are wrong. jesus was jewish. there is no arguement. he was jewish. accept it.

[Rebbe Goldstein]

This Conversation Is Anti Semetic, Do Not Talk About The Jews

[Hot Karl]

you are wrong. jesus was jewish. there is no arguement. he was jewish. accept it.

Sorry logic is non-existant for you, instead you try to sway me with no proof rather than proof?

done/

[JoshIsNumber3]

1) Jesus disagreed with the Temple institution, not the Jews
2) Jesus called the Jews the children of Satan because their continued disrespect of God and His laws

3) It isn't communitive


Get the **** out.

[Surf]

the burden of proof is irrellevant when the arguement is fact. the reasons you have provided are void bisaed and ridiculous. lets have a look

1. Jesus strongly disagreed with the Jews

jesus took part in many jewish ceremonies. passover is the one that particularly comes to mind. jesus was known to have debated judaism with the rabbis around this time. notice debate, rather than dissmiss.

2. Jesus called the Jews the children of Satan.

no he didn't. he mentioned an idea that happened to address a jewish crowd. since christianity was not invented yet, the jews would pretty much make up any kind of crowd jesus preached to. he said you are the children of god (i'm paraphrasing, because i don't have the bible to hand). he said this to a jewish crowd. realise that one speech an opinion does not make.

3. If Jesus was Jewish it would make HIM Satan.

worng on so many counts it actually pains me that you can be so ignorant.

4. There were different Israelite tribes, the Jews decided to inter-mix with others.

this has no relevance or bearing on anything. nulified.

5. Dumbass

well done you.

seriously, you have no point anymore.

[roll dem bones]

Karl, we get it. You're an anti-semitic bigot with a complete disregard for facts. Now scram.

I can say that because in the Bible it blatantly says that all sin is equal to the eyes of God.

Well... God needs to get some glasses then. Are you serious? It really says this?

[JoshIsNumber3]

Well... God needs to get some glasses then. Are you serious? It really says this?

James 2.10 : "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

[roll dem bones]

I, um, really am at a loss for words.

So... Hitler = Candy Thief

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is acceptable by anyone.

[Hot Karl]

the burden of proof is irrellevant when the arguement is fact. the reasons you have provided are void bisaed and ridiculous. lets have a look
LOL yeah the bible is biased and written by bigots.

1. Jesus strongly disagreed with the Jews

jesus took part in many jewish ceremonies. passover is the one that particularly comes to mind. jesus was known to have debated judaism with the rabbis around this time. notice debate, rather than dissmiss.
Jesus was a Christian, he disagreed strictly with Judaism's teachings.

2. Jesus called the Jews the children of Satan.

no he didn't. he mentioned an idea that happened to address a jewish crowd. since christianity was not invented yet, the jews would pretty much make up any kind of crowd jesus preached to. he said you are the children of god (i'm paraphrasing, because i don't have the bible to hand). he said this to a jewish crowd. realise that one speech an opinion does not make.
John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. - Jesus speaking to the Jews.

Children of God?, More like the children of satan. Christ's early followers and apostles were the early Christians.

3. If Jesus was Jewish it would make HIM Satan.

worng on so many counts it actually pains me that you can be so ignorant.


Durr wrong durr, you don't even attempt at proving your arguement.

Jesus was 100% human and 100% God

Jesus called the Jews the children of Satan.

Satan clashes with God. if Christ was a Jew he would be 100% Satan, 100% Jew.

4. There were different Israelite tribes, the Jews decided to inter-mix with others.

this has no relevance or bearing on anything. nulified.
You have no intelligence.

5. Dumbass

well done you.

seriously, you have no point anymore.
SUCK MA HAIRY BALLLZZZ

you suck

[Hot Karl]

1) Jesus disagreed with the Temple institution, not the Jews
2) Jesus called the Jews the children of Satan because their continued disrespect of God and His laws

3) It isn't communitive


Get the **** out.

No, dick, **** off.

1) Jesus disagreed with the Pharisees', or Jewish elite, teachings. Oh right da tempal was da only thing!

2) The Jews openly rejected Christ, breaking God's covenant. They rejected God.

[Surf]

"of whom (Israel) as concerning the flesh Christ came" (Romans 9:5).

quote from jesus anyone? oh, ther's one. wow. look at that. isn't it easy.

jesus could not have been christian. christianity as a concept let alone a religion was not alive until after his death.

you are fighting a losing battle. dear god man, accept it and move on. i'm sorry to say, but

JESUS WAS JEWISH

oy vay. i like you hot karl. you make me want to hit things.

[Hot Karl]

"of whom (Israel) as concerning the flesh Christ came" (Romans 9:5).

quote from jesus anyone? oh, ther's one. wow. look at that. isn't it easy.

jesus could not have been christian. christianity as a concept let alone a religion was not alive until after his death.

you are fighting a losing battle. dear god man, accept it and move on. i'm sorry to say, but

I'M A DUMBASS

oy vay. i like you hot karl. you make me want to hit things.

LOL Christ was not christian. His teachings were those of christianity and he sure as hell had apostles and followers before his death. His death did not instantaneously spark official birth of Christinity.

oi vei, what is it with retarded freaks always bustin my hairy ballz?

[Surf]

hang on, someone appears to be contradicting himself:

Jesus was a Christian, he disagreed strictly with Judaism's teachings.


LOL Christ was not christian.

the hairness of your balls is irrellevant. jesus was a practicing jew.

[Hot Karl]

hang on, someone appears to be contradicting himself:





the hairness of your balls is irrellevant. jesus was a practicing jew.

Someone's sarcasm detector broke, guess those thigns break around stupid kids. You've ultimately proved you are dumb, thanks.

[Surf]

i'm sorry, but you've lost the debate. jesus was jewish. goodnight ignorant bigot.

[Rebbe Goldstein]

All this anti semitism is starting to make me very angry, my brother in the ADL would flip out if he saw what you anti semites were saying.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

It makes no sense to say that Jesus was a Christian.

[Hot Karl]

It makes no sense to say that Jesus was a Christian.

He did not adhere to Judaism if he was against it.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

He did not adhere to Judaism if he was against it.

He was Jewish by ethnicity. Obviously he had differents than the ones presented in Judaism. To say he was Christian is illogical.

[Rebbe Goldstein]

Enough Of This Anti Semitism, Bad Nazi Men.

[Hot Karl]

He was Jewish by ethnicity. Obviously he had differents than the ones presented in Judaism. To say he was Christian is illogical.

The Jewish ethnicity did not exist back then atleast not withing certain tribes that began inter-marrying. The Israelites were not known as "Jews", the term did not even exist then. Technically Christ wouldn't be called a christian,you're right, since he is God - but his teachings are christian.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

The Jewish ethnicity did not exist back then atleast not withing certain tribes that began inter-marrying. The Israelites were not known as "Jews", the term did not even exist then. Technically Christ wouldn't be called a christian,you're right, since he is God - but his teachings are christian.

The Jewish ethnicity certainly did exist back then, albeit under a different name. It's still the same people. Christ was Jewish. There's no way around it.

[Rebbe Goldstein]

I am reporting this all to the proper antihate organization. This antisemitism must stop.

[Hot Karl]

The Jewish ethnicity certainly did exist back then, albeit under a different name. It's still the same people. Christ was Jewish. There's no way around it.

I said, only certain tribes, that were not related to Christ, race-mixed. What name was exactly used?

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

I said, only certain tribes, that were not related to Christ, race-mixed. What name was exactly used?

I don't remember, but Christ WAS part of what would now be considered a Jewish ethnic group. He was born Jewish, and he practiced Judaism. He did not speak out against Judaism because a lot of his views are meant to be understood after someone has been practicing Judaism. That's why the Old Testament aka The Torah exists.

[The Runner]

I am reporting this all to the proper antihate organization. This antisemitism must stop.

nothing can stop the internet

[Rebbe Goldstein]

Comparing jesus to jews is very anti semetic. Jesus was a bad man who hated the jews and was anti semtic. You are very anti semetic people if you say jesus was also a jew.

[Hot Karl]

I don't remember, but Christ WAS part of what would now be considered a Jewish ethnic group. He was born Jewish, and he practiced Judaism. He did not speak out against Judaism because a lot of his views are meant to be understood after someone has been practicing Judaism. That's why the Old Testament aka The Torah exists.

No he WASN'T a part of what is now a part of Jewish ethnic group. He was born non-Jewish and was the son of God. He clashed with Jews and their religion, why do you think he was sent down to introduce christianity, becuase Judaism was perfect? The Old Testament exists? I thought the Old Testament was a myth?.... :amaze:

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

Comparing jesus to jews is very anti semetic. Jesus was a bad man who hated the jews and was anti semtic. You are very anti semetic people if you say jesus was also a jew.

Jesus didn't hate anyone.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

No he WASN'T a part of what is now a part of Jewish ethnic group. He was born non-Jewish and was the son of God. He clashed with Jews and their religion, why do you think he was sent down to introduce christianity, becuase Judaism was perfect? The Old Testament exists? I thought the Old Testament was a myth?.... :amaze:

You are aware that Jesus wasn't actually the son of God, right?

[Rebbe Goldstein]

Jesus didn't hate anyone.

You are wrong anti semite. Jesus hated the jews and spoke out against us whenever he got the chance. You and him are very bad men.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

You are wrong anti semite. Jesus hated the jews and spoke out against us whenever he got the chance. You and him are very bad men.

You don't even know me.

[Hot Karl]

You are aware that Jesus wasn't actually the son of God, right?

:amaze: :amaze: :amaze: :amaze:

You mean that is a myth???

So Jesus is not God!

[Rebbe Goldstein]

You don't even know me.

I have seen your posts, you are very bad anti semite man.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

:amaze: :amaze: :amaze: :amaze:

You mean that is a myth???

So Jesus is not God!

Jesus was never considered God.

[Hot Karl]

Jesus was never considered God.

Lol, well now I can't take you seriously AT ALL. Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Good grief.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

Jesus was considered the son of God, not God.

[Hot Karl]

Jesus was considered the son of God, not God.

No, stoopid, look:

There are three people inside God, the Father, Son and the Holy spirit. The Trinity. He is both.

Please don't try to preach religion if you know nothing of it.

And stop contradicting yourself.
You are aware that Jesus wasn't actually the son of God, right?

[AmericanWeiner]

No, stoopid, look:

There are three people inside God, the Father, Son and the Holy spirit. The Trinity. He is both.

Please don't try to preach religion if you know nothing of it.

And stop contradicting yourself.

I see no contradiction in the posts you quoted.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

No, stoopid, look:

There are three people inside God, the Father, Son and the Holy spirit. The Trinity. He is both.

Please don't try to preach religion if you know nothing of it.

He is the Son. He is not the Trinity. Try reading the bible.


And stop contradicting yourself.

I didn't contradict myself. In the Christian religion, he was considered the son of God, but that doesn't make it so. I consider him to be a man and nothing more than a man.

[AmericanWeiner]

Proposing new thread topic-

Satan is godhead.
We are godhead.
Everything is godhead.
God is the board, the pieces, the players, the table, the moves, and the clock.

[Hot Karl]

He is the Son. He is not the Trinity. Try reading the bible.
Lol, again, I'm done with you, you are too much of a moron.

He is the Son.

God is the Lord the Father

There is the Holy spirit

Together they are the Holy trinity, and they are all GOD becuase there would be 3 Gods to worship if they were not. While there is only ONE God, Jesus is inside God, that makes HIM God, so is the Holy spirit. Christians worship Christ AS God. He is the son of God and he IS God because he is INSIDE God.



I didn't contradict myself. In the Christian religion, he was considered the son of God, but that doesn't make it so. I consider him to be a man and nothing more than a man.

My care-pants aren't on, so No I don't care what you think Christianty is even though you don't have a clue.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

Lol, again, I'm done with you, you are too much of a moron.

He is the Son.

God is the Lord the Father

There is the Holy spirit

Together they are the Holy trinity, and they are all GOD becuase there would be 3 Gods to worship if they were not. While there is only ONE God, Jesus is inside God, that makes HIM God, so is the Holy spirit. Christians worship Christ AS God. He is the son of God and he IS God because he is INSIDE God.

You can't be what you are inside of.


My care-pants aren't on, so No I don't care what you think Christianty is even though you don't have a clue.

Wow. Did you even read my post?

[Rebbe Goldstein]

I AM SICK and tired of all this anti semitic bullcrap, I will not stand for this heresy anymore, Jesus was not a jew, he was a very bad man, ALL PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WILL BE DESTROYED BY ELOHIM THE TRUE GOD.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

I AM SICK and tired of all this anti semitic bullcrap, I will not stand for this heresy anymore, Jesus was not a jew, he was a very bad man, ALL PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WILL BE DESTROYED BY ELOHIM THE TRUE GOD.

Jehovah starts with an I!

[Rebbe Goldstein]

Jehovah starts with an I!

YOU ARE A VERY BAD NAZI MAN. YOU SHOULD GO TO HELL!