'alternative' medicine

[Futue te Ipsum]

This can really be defined in two ways. My favourite is:
that set of practices that cannot be tested, refuse to be tested or consistently fail tests.
Though others may define it as:
A broad category of treatment systems (eg, chiropractic, herbal medicine, acupuncture, homeopathy, naturopathy, and spiritual devotions) or culturally based healing traditions such as Chinese, Ayurvedic, and Christian Science.

This is something which appears to be growing in popularity in the west. The FDA can't get rid of it, the NHS is funding it and all the while it retains it's dramatic inability to provide any evidence whatsoever to show that it actually does what it states it does.

I don't get it.

What's with the double standards? Why do these "drugs" not have to pass the scientific gold standard of double blind trials? Why is it that homeopathy is allowed to fail trial after trial and still be used by a naive public? Why Is the NHS funding wasteful, unproven therapies when they're struggling to pay for such things as, err... beds, doctors, hospitals and nurses?

I've pretty much gone off on one here. To supporters of alternative medicine: justify it to me.

[PerpetualBurn]

It sickens me that alternative therapies get funding. That could be paying for someone's real medicine.

[LegionsofMarduk]

Yeah it annoys me that it gets funding. But even though there aren't any clinical tests to prove if it works or not, there are thousands (if not millions) of people that swear by it. I think some of it is in the person's head. It's the placebo effect. Someone who thinks they're taking real medicine will start to feel better even though they're actually taking a sugar pill. But then again maybe not. I don't know and until they can clinically prove it (or we try it ourselves) I guess we're just going to have to take the "healed" person's word for it that it works or not.

[Crazy and Stupid]

It's a sign of things to come...

[PerpetualBurn]

The placebo effect is quite proven and demonstrable.

No alternative remedies are.

I don't have to take the healed person's word for anything.

[The_Passenger]

Yeah I agree it's nothing more than a placebo effect, and you can get that with simple pills instead of "special" herbs or anything. The fact that these alternative therapies haven't been proven to work says a lot as well.

[PerpetualBurn]

It's not that they haven't been proven to work. It's that they just don't do anything.

[unknownsoldier12]

If you feel you are getting benefit from alternative methods, than it makes no difference what the general consensus feels/thinks.

I don't they deserve funding, but I see it as a necessary evil, of sorts. It provides comfort to people. Sure, it's no miracle cure, but I don't think anyone is really disillusioned about it to begin with

[The_Passenger]

It's not that they haven't been proven to work. It's that they just don't do anything.

Well this is pretty much what I was saying. They haven't been proven to work because they don't, and never will be.

[Futue te Ipsum]

If you feel you are getting benefit from alternative methods, than it makes no difference what the general consensus feels/thinks.It does when they are the ones paying for it.The placebo effect is quite proven and demonstrable.

No alternative remedies are.

I don't have to take the healed person's word for anything.especially when the healed cancer sufferer just happened to have also undergone, say, a successful course of chemotherapy and surgery to remove the tumour.

Not that any organisation would conclude such a person was healed by alternative medicine.

Oh, wait...

[LegionsofMarduk]

I'm really easily ammused but I thought this was kind of funny.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/LegionsofMarduk/lol.jpg

I guess I don't really know where I stand. I personally think most of it is crap. But it's hard to ignore the millions of people that have used it and have had positive results. I don't think it should get the funding that it does. But really, if unproven methods were not financed we wouldn't be making progress in research because no new treatment is proven.

[thedeadwalk!]

What's with the double standards? Why do these "drugs" not have to pass the scientific gold standard of double blind trials? Why is it that homeopathy is allowed to fail trial after trial and still be used by a naive public? Why Is the NHS funding wasteful, unproven therapies when they're struggling to pay for such things as, err... beds, doctors, hospitals and nurses?

I've pretty much gone off on one here. To supporters of alternative medicine: justify it to me.
Because they're not drugs. It has to be licensed to be a drug. With this license comes the strict regulation. They can't say they cure anything because only drugs cure things. They can, however, say they can help treat things.

Also, the term "alternative" is one part of a series of terms used for this field. Today medical schools (at least in America) are adding "complementary" courses for this "integrative" medicine. Many doctors are saying that knowledge of both fields is superior to the single-model approach. Part of this is out of the desire of patients for a more holistic practice of medicine where people feel doctors are treating the disease and not the person. Not to mention exorbitant fees that, although allow for greater research, also cause 45.6% of all bankruptcies and lend itself to hundreds of thousands more (in America).

Even scientific medicine started where alternative medicine is, only they pushed for licenses to corner the market in an increasingly cramped field of anyone who wanted to put a sign on their house saying they practiced madicine. Now, alternative medicine does have enough success stories that governments (US and UK) are looking in to them in hopes of finding some scientific reasoning for why they work when they do.

A lot of my information was for America but I think it applies.

[Hababi]

Acupuncture is not devoid of proven results. Neither is herbal medicine. Heck, neither is chiropractic. So you're batting about 50% on what is pretty much bunk (homeopathy) and what isn't.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

sources pls

[Hababi]

The Manga Report was an outcomes-study funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health and conducted by three health economists led by Professor Pran Manga. The Report supported the scientific validity, safety, efficacy, and cost-effectiveness of chiropractic for low-back pain, and found that chiropractic care had higher patient satisfaction levels than conventional alternatives. The report states that "The literature clearly and consistently shows that the major savings from chiropractic management come from fewer and lower costs of auxiliary services, fewer hospitalizations, and a highly significant reduction in chronic problems, as well as in levels and duration of disability."

Manga P, Angus D. (1998) Enhanced Chiropractic Coverage Under OHIP as a Means of Reducing Health Care Costs, Attaining Better Health Outcomes and Achieving Equitable Access to Health Services. Retrieved 08 29 2006, from OCA

Because of course, as always, I have to prove my claims and you don't have to prove yours :rolleyes:

[spitfirejunky]

Homeophathy doesn't work!?

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

nice edit, Serenity

[semi]

I'm really easily ammused but I thought this was kind of funny.
how the hell is that funny? the google ads depend on what's on the page. i.e what we are talking about or just music ads for mx. people need to stop pointing it out in every thread. omg what a coincedance a thread on dinosaurs and the adverts. just happen to be on dinosaurs wow :O.

[LegionsofMarduk]

how the hell is that funny? the google ads depend on what's on the page. i.e what we are talking about or just music ads for mx. people need to stop pointing it out in every thread. omg what a coincedance a thread on dinosaurs and the adverts. just happen to be on dinosaurs wow :O.

Holy ****!!! I didn't know that!!! Wow that's amazing! :rolleyes: I found it ammusing. I don't care what the reason for the ads are and I really don't give a crap if you think it's funny or not.

[Hababi]

I have all the ads blocked, so I never see them :D

[Futue te Ipsum]

The Manga Report was an outcomes-study funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health and conducted by three health economists led by Professor Pran Manga. The Report supported the scientific validity, safety, efficacy, and cost-effectiveness of chiropractic for low-back pain, and found that chiropractic care had higher patient satisfaction levels than conventional alternatives. The report states that "The literature clearly and consistently shows that the major savings from chiropractic management come from fewer and lower costs of auxiliary services, fewer hospitalizations, and a highly significant reduction in chronic problems, as well as in levels and duration of disability."

Manga P, Angus D. (1998) Enhanced Chiropractic Coverage Under OHIP as a Means of Reducing Health Care Costs, Attaining Better Health Outcomes and Achieving Equitable Access to Health Services. Retrieved 08 29 2006, from OCA

Because of course, as always, I have to prove my claims and you don't have to prove yours :rolleyes:The OCA wouldn't happen to be the Ontario Chiropractic Association, would it? :rolleyes:

No doubt you would demand a better source if it was the opposition quoting it. This is an organisation with a vested interest in making chiro look valid quoting a report that only chiros appear to give a crap about. Out of every single copy of that report I found on the internet, NONE of them cited references and ALL of them were from Chiro organisations. Forgive my scepticism, but I feel it is highly justified in this case.
Homeopathy doesn't work!?if one of the oldest and most respected medical journals in the world is to be believed, no.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605671772/abstract

[Hababi]

Mm hmm how about the AMA:
"Manipulation has been shown to have a reasonably good degree of efficacy in ameliorating back pain, headache, and similar musculoskeletal complaints."

Stfu and learn your facts next time before quoting Dawkins like he knows anything :p

[ShredLemming]

I don't think that unproven treatments of any kind should be provided by taxpayer-funded health organisations, although as long as they meet safety standards I don't see why private healthcare companies shouldn't sell them. The exception that I want for this is homeopathic medicine. Picture this: take a bunch of plastic bottles and fill them with water. Wave a "magic healing herb" around over them. Sell them for about £10 each. Fleece idiots and use the enormous profit margin to help fund the public healthcare system. Wins.

[Futue te Ipsum]

Mm hmm how about the AMA:
"Manipulation has been shown to have a reasonably good degree of efficacy in ameliorating back pain, headache, and similar musculoskeletal complaints."

Stfu and learn your facts next time before quoting Dawkins like he knows anything :pOh, the AMA...

Surely not the same institution that called chiropractic an "an unscientific cult", stating on the subject that "A physician should practice a method of healing founded on a scientific basis; and he should not voluntarily professionally associate with anyone who violates this principle"?

It was a nice article you lead me to though. I wonder, have you read it?

[Hababi]

Just excerpts. It doesn't change the fact that chiropractice is not devoid of scientific support, which was my original statement.

Nor are herbs, nor acupuncture.

There was medicine before prescription drugs, ya know?

[Futue te Ipsum]

Wasn't the average life span like 40 back then?

And look at what it states. In terms of justifying chiro it is pretty meaningless. "Manipulation has been..." chiropractic manipulation? even that is neither specified nor clear, and the list of things said manipulation helps is well and truly pathetic for something that claims to be able to cure diseases.

"Err, well, you still have a hefty mrsa infection... but at least the head aches gone" wouldn't impress me.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

It doesn't change the fact that chiropractice is not devoid of scientific support, which was my original statement.

your original statement didn't include chiropractice until I asked for sources :-/

[Hababi]

your original statement didn't include chiropractice until I asked for sources :-/


It was edited in without knowledge of your post :cool:

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

The Manga Report was an outcomes-study funded by the Ontario Ministry of Health and conducted by three health economists led by Professor Pran Manga. The Report supported the scientific validity, safety, efficacy, and cost-effectiveness of chiropractic for low-back pain, and found that chiropractic care had higher patient satisfaction levels than conventional alternatives. The report states that "The literature clearly and consistently shows that the major savings from chiropractic management come from fewer and lower costs of auxiliary services, fewer hospitalizations, and a highly significant reduction in chronic problems, as well as in levels and duration of disability."

Manga P, Angus D. (1998) Enhanced Chiropractic Coverage Under OHIP as a Means of Reducing Health Care Costs, Attaining Better Health Outcomes and Achieving Equitable Access to Health Services. Retrieved 08 29 2006, from OCA

Because of course, as always, I have to prove my claims and you don't have to prove yours :rolleyes:

I was always under the impression that chiropractic can be good for your back, but that claims that it promotes overall health were bs

[italic zero]

Does anyone really believe in the principles of homeopathy?

[Knifeboy]

Going to a chiropractor makes you feel good. Feeling good makes it easier to become healthy... No?


how the hell is that funny? the google ads depend on what's on the page. i.e what we are talking about or just music ads for mx. people need to stop pointing it out in every thread. omg what a coincedance a thread on dinosaurs and the adverts. just happen to be on dinosaurs wow :O.

We all know this, but that doesn't stop us from finding it entertaining.
Don't be so uptight

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

But some chiropractors claim it facilitates energy flow or something BS like that

[spitfirejunky]

Does anyone really believe in the principles of homeopathy?

If I'm not mistaken, it helps reduce the symptoms of allergies significantly, and can be used as a deterrent against poisons.

[Knifeboy]

But some chiropractors claim it facilitates energy flow or something BS like that

Oh yeah. That's definately BS

[Futue te Ipsum]

If I'm not mistaken, it helps reduce the symptoms of allergies significantly, and can be used as a deterrent against poisons.You're very mistaken.

[Hababi]

You're very mistaken.

Proof plz? Sources, sources!!!:smash:

I mean geez, I've backed up every claim, but you've not backed up one and have been proven to be wrong about 50% of your claims:amaze:

[Mr. Ron]

The only alternative medicine I knew of back in my day was a bottle of whiskey and a kick in the arse from my paw. And we had to walk 15 MILES IN THE SNOW, uphill to get it!

[HaVIC5]

You honestly can't say that acupuncture doesn't have any effect. As a placebo or not, the WHO, the AMA and others have agreed that it has provable efficacy in treating a variety of ailments, and it "warrants further research". An NIH study (http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm) concluded that: "There is sufficient evidence of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value."

[Mr. Ron]

You honestly can't say that acupuncture doesn't have any effect. As a placebo or not, the WHO, the AMA and others have agreed that it has provable efficacy in treating a variety of ailments, and it "warrants further research". An NIH study (http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm) concluded that: "There is sufficient evidence of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value."


I thought acupunture was an accepted form of medicine?

[SubtleDagger]

It's not.

If you want to take in all forms of alternative medicine from homeopathy to acupuncture to chiropracy and even prayer, you'll see that most all of it does more harm than good.

[SubtleDagger]

Proof plz? Sources, sources!!!:smash:

I mean geez, I've backed up every claim, but you've not backed up one and have been proven to be wrong about 50% of your claims:amaze:
http://www.google.com, "homeopathy"

Seriously, it's been documented a million times over that homeopathy is fraudulent

[Hababi]

I'm not debating homeopathy, I don't put stock in it. Geez Burt read the whole thread :smash:

Acupuncture, chiropractic treatment and herbal treatment, however, do not fall in the same category as homeopathy and prayer.

[SubtleDagger]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

Chiropractic and herbal medicines have a small degree of benefit but both are plagued by quacks taking advantage of the disadvantaged

There are many accounts from within both practices about said quackery

[Hababi]

Sure there's quacks; there's quacks in every field. But just because there's more quacks hawking phony herbal medicines doesn't invalidate the treatment method as a whole.

[SubtleDagger]

Acupuncture has been invalidated countless times simply by its nature

There are obviously far more quacks in chiropractic and herbal fields than in say pediatric or psychiatric medicine

[PerpetualBurn]

Homeopathy works on the principle that like cures like. And we all know why the emergency services send firemen in with water not fire. And why we don't put more water on to dry ourselves after a shower.

As for people citing herbal remedies, you are misunderstanding the nature of medicine and science. Aspirin was derived from willow bark. Because science WILL recognise anything that can be seen to have an effect as being real. It doesn't just say "Herbal remedies don't work", it's that the ones that do become refined and turned into real medicines.

Why would science ever deny something like homeopathy? If it worked, it would be massively interesting and incredibly useful. But it doesn't.

[Mr. Ron]

It's not.

If you want to take in all forms of alternative medicine from homeopathy to acupuncture to chiropracy and even prayer, you'll see that most all of it does more harm than good.

Ok. But I know a few people that have gotten said treatment, and their physical pain went completely away. Surely there is good in it.

Personally, I don't think all valuable medicine is in liquid or pill form.

[Hababi]

it's that the ones that do become refined and turned into real medicines.


*manufactured medicine

(real) herbal remedies are still medicines, just not put in a pillbox and sold for 200x their manufacturing cost.

[PerpetualBurn]

No. Chewing willow bark is a stupid idea because nice scientists were good enough to refine aspirin and make it safer and more effective.

This is what happens with pretty much any worthwhile drug that can be isolated from a plant.

[SubtleDagger]

Ok. But I know a few people that have gotten said treatment, and their physical pain went completely away. Surely there is good in it.

Personally, I don't think all valuable medicine is in liquid or pill form.
I've known some people who get sick, don't go to the doctor, and yet they get over it in a few days

Does this mean that not doing anything is an effective treatment?

[Futue te Ipsum]

Proof plz? Sources, sources!!!:smash:

I mean geez, I've backed up every claim, but you've not backed up one and have been proven to be wrong about 50% of your claims:amaze:you need sources for opinions?

Sorry, I didn't get the memo.

I guess I'll just have to back up common sense everywhere I go.

[Futue te Ipsum]

You honestly can't say that acupuncture doesn't have any effect. As a placebo or not, the WHO, the AMA and others have agreed that it has provable efficacy in treating a variety of ailments, and it "warrants further research". An NIH study (http://consensus.nih.gov/1997/1997Acupuncture107html.htm) concluded that: "There is sufficient evidence of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value."
There's that AMA again.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118
Acupuncture was no more effective than sham acupuncture in reducing migraine headaches although both interventions were more effective than a waiting list controlErrr, I may be mistaken but to me that looks like a placebo effect : /

[HaVIC5]

There's that AMA again.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118
Errr, I may be mistaken but to me that looks like a placebo effect : /
That was a study for a specific treatment, and not a policy statement for the general effectiveness of acupuncture. NIH says that it is a generally effective medicine. Besides, placebo effect is placebo effect, and works anyway, so don't give discredit to that.

[Mr. Ron]

I've known some people who get sick, don't go to the doctor, and yet they get over it in a few days

Does this mean that not doing anything is an effective treatment?

Not doing anything and having it go away, and doing soemthing that helps it go away are two different things. Many people have been healed by some of these treatments. Not all cures are in pill form.

[SubtleDagger]

Saying "not all cures are in pill form" is kind of pointless since plenty of established medicines aren't

There's a big difference between not taking a pill and getting poked with needles to fix your Qi energy

[Mr. Ron]

Saying "not all cures are in pill form" is kind of pointless since plenty of established medicines aren't

There's a big difference between not taking a pill and getting poked with needles to fix your Qi energy

I'm not some nut that doesn't believe in modern medicine, if I'm coming off to be one. :p

But who says your body doesn't have energies that can be manipulated to make you better? After all, we do have a magnetic field and plenty of electricity running through us. Just a theory.

[SubtleDagger]

Yeah but theories like that are what can actively keep people from being treated for real problems

There are plenty of alternative medicine douches who take advantage of people with ideas like that when those said people have real problems that continue to go neglected

I admit there are plenty of chiropractors who just want to help but the majority of them don't, whereas a doctor usually can

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah but theories like that are what can actively keep people from being treated for real problems

There are plenty of alternative medicine douches who take advantage of people with ideas like that when those said people have real problems that continue to go neglected

Very true.

[spitfirejunky]

You're very mistaken.

http://allergies.about.com/cs/shots/a/blaaaai071503.htm

The treatment involves injecting the allergens that were identified as triggers of your allergy symptoms through a combination of allergy testing and a medical evaluation performed by a trained allergist/immunologist. Your body responds to the injected amounts of a particular allergen, given in gradually increasing doses, by developing an immunity or tolerance to the allergen. This means that when you encounter these allergens in the future, you will have a reduced or a very minor allergic response and fewer symptoms.

Is this not homeopathy?

... in fact is successful in up to 80 percent of patients.

[PerpetualBurn]

That's not homeopathy.

A homeopath would've diluted it a million or so times.

And then done a magic dance.

And then failed because they were just administering water.

[spitfirejunky]

I see, I seemed to have reduced homeopathy to "like cures like."

[Futue te Ipsum]

That was a study for a specific treatment, and not a policy statement for the general effectiveness of acupuncture. NIH says that it is a generally effective medicine. Besides, placebo effect is placebo effect, and works anyway, so don't give discredit to that.I'm well aware that the placebo effect is real, but it is nowhere near as effective as actual medication.

On the NIH:
According to the NIH Consensus Statement on Acupuncture, there have been many studies on acupuncture's potential usefulness, but results have been mixed because of complexities with study design and size, as well as difficulties with choosing and using placebos or sham acupuncture.It's very vague in the entire thing. I saw nothing which out and out stated it was a valid form of treatment.

[thedeadwalk!]

I'm well aware that the placebo effect is real, but it is nowhere near as effective as actual medication.
That's because it has to surpass the placebo effect in the first place to go to market.

[Futue te Ipsum]

That's because it has to surpass the placebo effect in the first place to go to market.Clap Clap Clap.

[thedeadwalk!]

I'm just saying it's unfair to call it ineffective when the placebo is the benchmark for real meds to pass.

[PerpetualBurn]

It's a bit of a misrepresentation to start using the placebo effect in this manner. If something is only effective as a placebo, then it's ineffective as a medicine - it is actually doing nothing.

[SubtleDagger]

A vitamin pill has the same effect, so it's a much simpler placebo method then say, sticking needles in people

[thedeadwalk!]

It's a bit of a misrepresentation to start using the placebo effect in this manner. If something is only effective as a placebo, then it's ineffective as a medicine - it is actually doing nothing.
From what I remember, a placebo has around a 30% success rate and medications that go to market have to perform at least 20% better. I'm probably off on the numbers, though.

But, I mean, this is the test for medications to pass: is there a meaningful profit in this medication over say, nothing?

[PerpetualBurn]

Yes, but essentially anything that doesn't cause harm can be effective as a placebo. So to call something an effective placebo as if that means anything about its worth is quite misleading.