The Extreme-right and idiotic Muslim youth are driving me mad...!

[Give me Beer]

I don't know if this made international headlines, but here in Brussels there've been small riots over the last few days by Muslim youth who are angry about the "mysterious" death of one of their friends (by the way, a hardend criminal who had been in and out of policy custody since his 13th, he was 25 when he died). The guy died after he got a tranquilizer dosis since he was being beligerent towards guards, or that's what they say (Before you all cry racism and foul, there's a good chance he was on some sort of illegal drug and that it reacted with the tranquilizers).

Anyway, the reaction has been to torch cars and burn down shops here in Brussels, shops from people who have jack all to do with it, cars from people who have nothing to do with it. I mean, seriously, what the **** is wrong with these people?

And then on the other hand you've got the extreme-right. I've talking to a couple of them lately and there seem to be more and more, and they really believe Islam is threatening our way of life and that the Muslims are trying to take over society and that if they're not stopped the Sharia will be implemented within 50 years. They're down-right Islamophobic and their discourse is starting to look a lot like the whole "The JEWS are going to take over the world" discourse, only we're talking MUSLIMS now.

And this party is going to get at least 1/4 of the flemish vote next 8 of October.

So on one side we have moronic youth who are making entire neighbourhoods no-go areas and **** with people for hardly any provocation, and on the other hand you've got the fascists.

I'm going mad I tell you.

//rant.

[666Ozzfan]

Wow, that's crazy. Is it like that in neighbouring countries as well?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Oh, dude, how are we to fix the world?

When will they learn that without moderation everybody loses?

[spitfirejunky]

I glad they have lenient self-defense laws in the US.

[AA-12]

My entire family is extreme-right including me. You need to look past what the media portrays it all like.

[Lydisk]

just like france innit?

people like that are just looking for "excuses" to fight and destroy.

fools.

[Jude]

My entire family is extreme-right including me. You need to look past what the media portrays it all like.

Lol so what is it really?

[Give me Beer]

My entire family is extreme-right including me. You need to look past what the media portrays it all like.

I've been trying to have a reasonable debate with them. They just resort to name-calling everytime I pose a ****ing question.

And I doubt you and me are on the same level as far as ideas go.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

My entire family is extreme-right including me. You need to look past what the media portrays it all like.
No, the reason people think you're a racist ****twat is because you are one.

[AA-12]

No, the reason people think you're a racist ****twat is because you are one.
Oh, okay.
I've been trying to have a reasonable debate with them. They just resort to name-calling everytime I pose a ****ing question.

And I doubt you and me are on the same level as far as ideas go.
We definitely are not.

Lol so what is it really?
Political and social ideas that are just as valid as anything else. Most right wing extremists i'm friends with are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet, who would never impose their views on anyone, let alone resort to violence.

[Give me Beer]

Explain to me then, what do you believe in?

[AA-12]

Nationalism/White Nationalism.

[Give me Beer]

Hmm, yea, definitely not on the same page (I'm white and my girlfriend is...*gasp* black).

But you're being rather vague, what do those terms entail? Or better, what do you believe that they entail? Would that make me a "race-traitor"? Do you believe there's something better about the white race than any other race? Why is race important in the first place? And nationalism, why should we be nationalist?

[Eccles]

What's hilarious is that people are of the opinion that Muslims are going to take over, Islamic law is going to be implemented in 25 years, whatever.

For instance, look at the UK. How many Muslims MPs are there? Are there any? Even if there are, I'm willing to bet they're more moderate in their faith than plenty of Christian politicians in the UK.

Even taking a step back, how many of our top lawyers, magistrates, even doctors or researchers are Muslims?

The fear of some kind of Muslim takeover is completely ridiculous.

[ChodaBoy]

There will soon be more Muslim MP's if the Tories have their way, regardless of their abilities

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

My entire family is extreme-right including me. You need to look past what the media portrays it all like.

we know and we don't like you


What's hilarious is that people are of the opinion that Muslims are going to take over, Islamic law is going to be implemented in 25 years, whatever.

For instance, look at the UK. How many Muslims MPs are there? Are there any? Even if there are, I'm willing to bet they're more moderate in their faith than plenty of Christian politicians in the UK.

Even taking a step back, how many of our top lawyers, magistrates, even doctors or researchers are Muslims?

The fear of some kind of Muslim takeover is completely ridiculous.

There are muslim MPs, but as you say, they're pretty moderate; Britain is quite the moderate country, except for when we grab onto the america train.

[Smokey D]

Wow, that's crazy. Is it like that in neighbouring countries as well?

In the Low Countries, yes. In other places, there is a lot of tension and unresolved racial/civil rights issues, but not outright violence (though you will recall the outburts in Paris and around France last year).

Nationalism/White Nationalism.

Any affiliation, prejudice or predeposition based on ethnicity or race is racist. It can't be explained any other way.

My entire family is extreme-right including me. You need to look past what the media portrays it all like.

Sorry, racists don't get much sympathy.

[AA-12]

Hmm, yea, definitely not on the same page (I'm white and my girlfriend is...*gasp* black).

But you're being rather vague, what do those terms entail? Or better, what do you believe that they entail? Would that make me a "race-traitor"? Do you believe there's something better about the white race than any other race? Why is race important in the first place? And nationalism, why should we be nationalist?

Heh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism That sums it up as a whole. I don't agree with your relationship, but am not going to put you down for it. Your decisions are your own, and not my business. I believe that all races have equal potential, and by acting on their own can full realize this.

[Smokey D]

That's still a racist view point, but a somewhat different one proposed by other white supremacists.

[Give me Beer]

What's hilarious is that people are of the opinion that Muslims are going to take over, Islamic law is going to be implemented in 25 years, whatever.

For instance, look at the UK. How many Muslims MPs are there? Are there any? Even if there are, I'm willing to bet they're more moderate in their faith than plenty of Christian politicians in the UK.

Even taking a step back, how many of our top lawyers, magistrates, even doctors or researchers are Muslims?

The fear of some kind of Muslim takeover is completely ridiculous.

I've tried telling them that the immigration issues at the core are very similar to the hispanic immigration in the USA... but yea, they don't believe me, appearantly Islam is out to conquor or something like that.

[AA-12]

That's still a racist view point, but a somewhat different one proposed by other white supremacists.

I know. I don't deny "racism", I just see it differently. I'm one in the fact that I see races extremely different from each other.

[Smokey D]

I know. I don't deny "racism", I just see it differently. I'm one in the fact that I see races extremely different from each other.

When science suggests that the difference is literally skin deep, and reflects nothing on the eventual character of a person provided they are raised in the same culture as someone else.

What you're subscribing to some pseudo-scientific, outmoded anthropological model with no serious backers in the modern academic world. But, hey, if you want to be backwards.

[White Riot!]

Its happening everywhere.....even here in australia


We can thank *cough* U.S *cough* foreign policy for most of this trouble.

[Hababi]

We can thank *cough* U.S *cough* foreign policy for most of this trouble.

I think that has very little to do with it, tbh.

GMB, I haven't heard about that, but are the rioters from lower income areas? It sounds like a situation very similar to the one in France last year, where you had riots following a death. In that case it was less about the religion than the socioeconomic standing of the people: they were poor immigrants who felt like outcasts, and faulted the government for their inability to get ahead. And they don't exactly come from cultures/countries which value peaceful demonstration and democracy :p

[White Riot!]

I think that has very little to do with it, tbh.

really? ha! U.S foreign policy is the greatest provocation for millitant anti western attitudes

[Give me Beer]

Of course it's more about the socio-economic standing of these people than their religion. Although you won't be able to sell that to our right-wingers. I do think that those immigrants hold a share of the blame themselves. They cling to their own culture, won't learn Dutch or French, don't try and get ahead in our schooling-system (and you don't need to be rich to go to University here, it costs like 600 a year). Yes, there's racism, yes the integration-policy isn't run like it should be. But they've got to make an effort too.

Ultimatly, blame can be put on both sides here (religion just has little to do with it). But rioting like that just gets extreme-right more votes and makes you look like a moron.

[Hababi]

Oh I'm not defending the rioters; they're idiots :lol:

[coheneran]

Uhh, I think you guys are misreading it.

Just like the France race riots weren't about the two kids who died, and like the LA riots weren't about Rodney King (not sure if I have the time-periods right, did the Rodney King thing trigger the race riots?), this isn't about some guy who died while under police custody. Loads of people die from mysterious circumstances but that doesn't cause riots, what causes riots is alienation, repression, or a myriad other social injustices. This guy's death obviously just triggered it. You don't need to look at Muslim society to solve this problem, you need to look at how Muslim society is treated.

[Hababi]

and like the LA riots weren't about Rodney King (not sure if I have the time-periods right, did the Rodney King thing trigger the race riots?)


Yes. The cops should've opened fire on the violent rioters, would've settled things pretty fast.



You don't need to look at Muslim society to solve this problem, you need to look at how Muslim society is treated.

Or how they behave and respond :p

[Jude]

Political and social ideas that are just as valid as anything else. Most right wing extremists i'm friends with are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet, who would never impose their views on anyone, let alone resort to violence.

Dude, when people talk about extreme right views, they aren't talking about sensible libertarians or anything like that, they're talking about ****nut nazis.

I know. I don't deny "racism", I just see it differently. I'm one in the fact that I see races extremely different from each other.
But anyone even slightly up on modern science should know that's an utterly ridiculous view.

[coheneran]

Or how they behave and respond :p

Except that any part of human society which gets alienated, then prejudiced against (and whatever else happens to them, I can't be arsed to think through the details properly), will eventually lash out. The blacks did, the Palestinians did, the Native Americans did, the Indians did, the Sunnis in Shi'ite areas did, the women did (suffragettes), the Algerians did, the working class did, etc. etc. etc..

[ATC]

Of course it's more about the socio-economic standing of these people than their religion. Although you won't be able to sell that to our right-wingers. I do think that those immigrants hold a share of the blame themselves. They cling to their own culture, won't learn Dutch or French, don't try and get ahead in our schooling-system (and you don't need to be rich to go to University here, it costs like 600 a year). Yes, there's racism, yes the integration-policy isn't run like it should be. But they've got to make an effort too.

Ultimatly, blame can be put on both sides here (religion just has little to do with it). But rioting like that just gets extreme-right more votes and makes you look like a moron.

This man speaks the truth. In the present political climate, rioting, whether or not it can justified, is the worst thing these people can do. Sure, there may be an underlying mistreatment, but this is not the way to combat it. It doesn't help if minorities or majorities or any group decides to not meet social programs halfway. Deciding to put your religion or ethnicity or any other construct above your humanity and good sense is just plain retarded and sadly enough, a lot of Muslims seem to be doing that on the news.

[Hababi]

Except that any part of human society which gets alienated, then prejudiced against (and whatever else happens to them, I can't be arsed to think through the details properly), will eventually lash out. The blacks did, the Palestinians did, the Native Americans did, the Indians did, the Sunnis in Shi'ite areas did, the women did (suffragettes), the Algerians did, the working class did, etc. etc. etc..


I don't think you can compare the reaction of suffragettes and Asian immigrants to America with the middle eastern rioters in Europe (or black rioters in LA). Some groups handled themselves, generrally, with dignity, while others have not.

[coheneran]

I don't think you can compare the reaction of suffragettes and Asian immigrants to America with the middle eastern rioters in Europe (or black rioters in LA). Some groups handled themselves, generrally, with dignity, while others have not.

I'm not criticising or applauding tactics, I'm pointing out that civil restlessness doesn't happen without a cause.

Besides, the Suffragettes were different in that they had a clear goal to campaign towards, the right to vote, but there's no clear goal for these alienated communities to aim towards. The women were organised, had a target, had a plan. These communities are disorganised, confused about their oppressors, and definitely have no political plan for reform.

[Surgicalgod]

Uhh, I think you guys are misreading it.

Just like the France race riots weren't about the two kids who died, and like the LA riots weren't about Rodney King (not sure if I have the time-periods right, did the Rodney King thing trigger the race riots?), this isn't about some guy who died while under police custody. Loads of people die from mysterious circumstances but that doesn't cause riots, what causes riots is alienation, repression, or a myriad other social injustices. This guy's death obviously just triggered it. You don't need to look at Muslim society to solve this problem, you need to look at how Muslim society is treated.

Best post in thread.

Besides what's wrong with Sharia law? it's funny that most people are scared of it being forcefully applied on them when they don't even know what it is.

[coheneran]

Best post in thread.

Besides what's wrong with Sharia law? it's funny that most people are scared of it being forcefully applied on them when they don't even know what it is.

Do I get rep+?

Hint hint, nudge nudge, say n'more say n'more, say NO MORE!

/loves Eric Idle

Dude, you should make a thread about Sharia Law.

[Hababi]

Besides what's wrong with Sharia law? it's funny that most people are scared of it being forcefully applied on them when they don't even know what it is.


Hmmm well where to begin:
In accordance with the Qur'an and several hadith, theft is punished by imprisonment or amputation of hands or feet, depending on the number of times it was committed.

A husband may divorce his wife whenever he wants. If the marriage has been consummated, the divorced woman must remain at her ex-husband's house for three months before she is allowed to leave. The man has the ability to retract the divorce by having sex with the woman within those three months.
A woman who wishes to be divorced needs the consent of her husband. If he consents she has to pay back the dowry.

Sharia does not allow freedom of blasphemy against the prophet Muhammad.

Need more?




Besides, the Suffragettes were different in that they had a clear goal to campaign towards, the right to vote, but there's no clear goal for these alienated communities to aim towards. The women were organised, had a target, had a plan. These communities are disorganised, confused about their oppressors, and definitely have no political plan for reform.
[/QUOTE]



Well, with the Rodney King situation, you had a large, largely criminal element upset when a career criminal got smacked around a little, who then went on a rampage. Those people were nothing more than criminals, even before they resorted to massive violence.

In France, you had a group of people who again were living on the outskirts of the law.

[HaVIC5]

Europe has some serious racial problems that it will have to deal with for the first half of the 21st century. I always have found it funny how some Europeans will look down on the US for all of its racial tumult, but in the US, the races interact. In Europe for much of the 20th century, races were segregated (not by law, mind you) into ethnic communities, and now that modern times have come around, it needs to deal with the fact that these homogenous communities will no longer exist. This is what the US went through in the 1960's, this time with Arabs and North Africans. Conveniently enough, it coincides with the right-wing Islamic jihad, which will make this integration far, far more painful.

[HaVIC5]

Well, with the Rodney King situation, you had a large, largely criminal element upset when a career criminal got smacked around a little, who then went on a rampage. Those people were nothing more than criminals, even before they resorted to massive violence.

In France, you had a group of people who again were living on the outskirts of the law.
No. They were both race riots. Not a criminal riots. Race had everything to do with them.

[Hababi]

"race riot" is just a codeword for criminal riot. Law abiding blacks didn't participate in them. Only the criminals did.

[coheneran]

Well, with the Rodney King situation, you had a large, largely criminal element upset when a career criminal got smacked around a little, who then went on a rampage. Those people were nothing more than criminals, even before they resorted to massive violence.

In France, you had a group of people who again were living on the outskirts of the law.

The massive majority of criminals don't commit crimes out of a choice, in fact it the lack of choice that drives them to it. Why would you risk it if you didn't need to? Immigrants in France are segregated into poor areas, essentially ghettoes, into unmaintained towerblocks, with badly-funded schools and little to no social programs. I can't be arsed to find the figures again (I had loads once, wrote an article about it), but there was something like 30% unemployment in these ghettoes, and thousands of people were living below the poverty line. They were subject to routine police harrassment tactics, random ID checks (no white people would get randomly ID'd, strangely enough) and unprovoked arrests that meant staying for hours (sometimes even for the night) in a cell, in a sty full of racist cops.

As for violence, I've said already, I'm not endorsing their tactics, I'm saying look at the reasons they're rioting before you go (not you personally) accusing Islam of being violent.

[Surgicalgod]

Hmmm well where to begin:
In accordance with the Qur'an and several hadith, theft is punished by imprisonment or amputation of hands or feet, depending on the number of times it was committed.

A husband may divorce his wife whenever he wants. If the marriage has been consummated, the divorced woman must remain at her ex-husband's house for three months before she is allowed to leave. The man has the ability to retract the divorce by having sex with the woman within those three months.
A woman who wishes to be divorced needs the consent of her husband. If he consents she has to pay back the dowry.

Sharia does not allow freedom of blasphemy against the prophet Muhammad.

Need more?

I will be sure to edit that wikipedia entry very soon. It's all wrong my dear boy.

[Hababi]

I will be sure to edit that wikipedia entry very soon. It's all wrong my dear boy.

There's plenty of references to back it up. So my guess is your attempt at blanking will be reverted :p


Immigrants in France are segregated into poor areas, essentially ghettoes, into unmaintained towerblocks, with badly-funded schools and little to no social programs.


So were Asians in America (they had it much worse than the whining Muslims of France have it). So were Jews in America. And England. And most everywhere else. But you didn't see those types of things happening. They worked hard, they bettered themselves, and got out of the ghettoes. As a lot of blacks in America did.

Then you have the criminals in LA who ran around killing, assaulting and burning. That's the difference.


(no white people would get randomly ID'd, strangely enough)


Because white Europeans aren't the ones plotting terrorist attacks :p

Did you bother to ask why cops paid attention to them? No, it wasn't because they were mean racists wanting to crack down on brown skinned people. It's because those people were criminals, and those areas were hotbeds of crime.

[coheneran]

"race riot" is just a codeword for criminal riot. Law abiding blacks didn't participate in them. Only the criminals did.

They're a matter of both race and class. Didn't see any rich brown folks rioting, but definitely saw pics of whitey kids rioting with the black kids. Not rich whitey kids mind you. The fact that the rioters were mostly all black is due to the fact that they come to the country with nothing and so are immediately in the lower stratas of the working class. Someone "law-abiding", in this context, is someone who is too scared of police retribution to stand up and say "I won't take this!"

[Hababi]

They're a matter of both race and class. Didn't see any rich brown folks rioting, but definitely saw pics of whitey kids rioting with the black kids. Not rich whitey kids mind you.


White kids commonly described as whiggas.


Someone "law-abiding", in this context, is someone who is too scared of police retribution to stand up and say "I won't take this!"


Saying I won't take this...by looting stores, assaulting innocent people, and murdering people. Yeah, nothing says, "Don't treat us like criminals" like going out and comitting despicable acts of violence.

It's not a matter of being "afraid" of police retribution. It's a matter of wanting to live an ethical, legal existence. Those people didn't want to. And the LA police let them walk right over them. Shooting a few dozen would've saved lives and tons of property damage.

[Surgicalgod]

btw coheneran, rep'd.

[coheneran]

So were Asians in America (they had it much worse than the whining Muslims of France have it). So were Jews in America. And England. And most everywhere else. But you didn't see those types of things happening. They worked hard, they bettered themselves, and got out of the ghettoes. As a lot of blacks in America did.

I don't know, did you see the French ghettoes? Did you live in the black ghettoes in LA? Or is all you know what you see on whitey TV?

And are you kidding?! There were tonnes of black uprisings in the USA! Both slave uprisings and activists for black rights in the 50s and 60s.

Jews in the UK were not, in the 20th century, systematically oppressed by state policies, unlike black immigrants in France. And with the religious Jews, it's a whole different situation anyway, because they're just about the only culture that doesn't put much stock in honour, unlike African and European cultures. Anywho, the Cable Street Uprising (in the East End, which was going through a stage in which Jews stopped being religious) against the BUF showed that they were willing to rise up and fight, if the level of oppression reached a certain point (Nazism).

Did you bother to ask why cops paid attention to them? No, it wasn't because they were mean racists wanting to crack down on brown skinned people. It's because those people were criminals, and those areas were hotbeds of crime.

In the case of the teens whose death sparked off the riots, it was a group of them using pretty much the only recreation tool the state has given them, a basketball court. Can you imagine a cop car pulling up to a basketball court and stopping a group of teenagers from playing basketball just to check their bloody IDs? It's absurd! And it happens regularly, cops just stop black people on the street and ask for ID. It happens in Israel as well, if someone looks Arabic and is walking around Central Tel-Aviv, he'll probably be asked for ID within two hours.

Saying I won't take this...by looting stores, assaulting innocent people, and murdering people. Yeah, nothing says, "Don't treat us like criminals" like going out and comitting despicable acts of violence.

It's not a matter of being "afraid" of police retribution. It's a matter of wanting to live an ethical, legal existence. Those people didn't want to. And the LA police let them walk right over them. Shooting a few dozen would've saved lives and tons of property damage.

Oh, I don't know anything about the LA riots beyond what Bill Hicks told me ("Did I forget to put out my cigarette?), I was talking about the French riots.

As for looting and random violence, I keep saying, their tactics were crap, because they weren't organised, they weren't coherent even in their own minds (if they were organised, they could have made significant changes to the system), but those riots were the manifestation of the black lower class's fury over the injustices it suffers. That is all I've been saying, and it's pretty damn obvious, the only reason you have to argue is if you believe that the riots were completely random and unexpected, and not caused by social injustice but by the blacks' inherent violence. And you're smart enough to know it's not the latter.

And thanks Surgicalgod. What's your name?

[Hababi]

And are you kidding?! There were tonnes of black uprisings in the USA! Both slave uprisings and activists for black rights in the 50s and 60s.

Dude those are a century apart, ya know? ;)

And, there was really only one significant organized slave revolt. They went around killing women and children, mainly, led by a skitzophrenic who preached that all whites must die. Some heroes.



Jews in the UK were not, in the 20th century, systematically oppressed by state policies, unlike black immigrants in France.


Not in the UK, but most everywhere else.


And with the religious Jews, it's a whole different situation anyway, because they're just about the only culture that doesn't put much stock in honour, unlike African and European cultures.


And what about Asians? It's oft forgotten how lousy Asian immigrants had it in America for several generations. But they didn't go around in organized mobs, hurting innocent people. Maybe those groups ought to take a hint.


Can you imagine a cop car pulling up to a basketball court and stopping a group of teenagers from playing basketball just to check their bloody IDs?


Sure I can. Any time a crime happens and the players fit the description, pull 'em over and check their ID. It's good police work.


It's absurd!


Oh boo hoo poor criminals. Why do you constantly stick up for criminals and oppose police? The police serve you, the criminals seek to exploit you.


And it happens regularly, cops just stop black people on the street and ask for ID. It happens in Israel as well, if someone looks Arabic and is walking around Central Tel-Aviv, he'll probably be asked for ID within two hours.


Once again, when there's criminal investigations going on, that's what you do.

You forget to note, again, that these people were criminals.



As for looting and random violence, I keep saying, their tactics were crap, because they weren't organised, they weren't coherent even in their own minds (if they were organised, they could have made significant changes to the system), but those riots were the manifestation of the black lower class's fury over the injustices it suffers. That is all I've been saying, and it's pretty damn obvious, the only reason you have to argue is if you believe that the riots were completely random and unexpected, and not caused by social injustice but by the blacks' inherent violence. And you're smart enough to know it's not the latter.


I don't think it was due to any racially inherent predisposition to violence; I think it was just a bunch of no character thugs who did the only thing they know how to do: cause trouble. Same thing with the thugs who roamed New Orleans after Katrina.

[Iskandar]

The police serve you, the criminals seek to exploit you.
It's not opposition to police so much as opposition to their power. The potential for abuse of power by police is incredible by mere nature of their position: we let them out to do as they please and find out if they're right later. It's difficult to avoid.

[coheneran]

And, there was really only one significant organized slave revolt. They went around killing women and children, mainly, led by a skitzophrenic who preached that all whites must die. Some heroes.

Unlike the goodly and humane slavers. And who said anything about heros?

Not in the UK, but most everywhere else.

Like I said, it's a different situation with the Jews. Besides, once it got to that real and obvious situation of Nazism, partisan resistance did begin, and there were revolts in the ghettos. But the Jewish religion and culture don't hold principles like honour above principles like peace or tolerance, which is what you'd expect from a race whose history is basically built out of one oppression to the next.

And what about Asians? It's oft forgotten how lousy Asian immigrants had it in America for several generations. But they didn't go around in organized mobs, hurting innocent people. Maybe those groups ought to take a hint.

The only things I know about the Asians in America is from that Jackie Chan cowboy film, and I'm pretty sure most of that isn't true.:p I'm afraid I can't argue with you on this one.

Sure I can. Any time a crime happens and the players fit the description, pull 'em over and check their ID. It's good police work.

Once again, when there's criminal investigations going on, that's what you do.

It happens far too often for it to be general detective police work. How often does a white perpetrator gets reported that the police go around randomly checking whites' ID cards? And how in hell is checking IDs gonna find the perp? Unless he left his name or address, I don't see how it'd help.

Oh boo hoo poor criminals. Why do you constantly stick up for criminals and oppose police? The police serve you, the criminals seek to exploit you.

I never try to justify murderers, muggers and burglars.

You forget to note, again, that these people were criminals.

Since when are all Arab-looking people criminals? Unless it's a crime to be brown.

I don't think it was due to any racially inherent predisposition to violence; I think it was just a bunch of no character thugs who did the only thing they know how to do: cause trouble. Same thing with the thugs who roamed New Orleans after Katrina.

If you mean the people who looted shops for food etc., yeah, what evil people. I mean geez, you leave these people to fend for themselves in a flooded city full of disease and floating bodies, and the first thing they do is loot food and medicines! The sheer cheek of it!

[Smokey D]

I think that has very little to do with it, tbh.

GMB, I haven't heard about that, but are the rioters from lower income areas? It sounds like a situation very similar to the one in France last year, where you had riots following a death. In that case it was less about the religion than the socioeconomic standing of the people: they were poor immigrants who felt like outcasts, and faulted the government for their inability to get ahead. And they don't exactly come from cultures/countries which value peaceful demonstration and democracy :p

Quite a lot of it has to do with the fact that they were in France, with has an extremely successful tradition of changing government policy through violent protest.

The riots last year were horrible, and I imagine they are similar in Belgium now. It is a tragedy that even after forty years of immigration, there's still such a large degree of social dislocation in Europe, which in so many other ways leads the world in human rights related subjects.

[Hababi]

Quite a lot of it has to do with the fact that they were in France, with has an extremely successful tradition of changing government policy through violent protest.


I don't think those folks knew/know much about French history :\

[Give me Beer]

Uhh, I think you guys are misreading it.

Just like the France race riots weren't about the two kids who died, and like the LA riots weren't about Rodney King (not sure if I have the time-periods right, did the Rodney King thing trigger the race riots?), this isn't about some guy who died while under police custody. Loads of people die from mysterious circumstances but that doesn't cause riots, what causes riots is alienation, repression, or a myriad other social injustices. This guy's death obviously just triggered it. You don't need to look at Muslim society to solve this problem, you need to look at how Muslim society is treated.

Stop right there.

First of all, these aren't widespread riots man, these are a couple of hundred people from a neighbourhood rioting. Second of all, yes, there's alienation and social injustice, but it's unfair of you towards my community to put the blame squarly on us. I think it's fair to ask that if you want to immigrate to my country, live of our welfare system etc. you make the minimal effort to integrate. That means learning the language and abiding by local laws and customs. These people for a part alienate themselves by sticking together in their communities, by not learning the language. I'm not happy about how those kids are raised at home. They're raised that being a boy, they've got more rights than a girl. Part of the alienation is that at home they're put on a pedestal, and out on the street, they're not. It's incredible that the parents don't punish their children severly when they first come in contact with the law. Same with the schooling system, their parents aren't involved because they don't even know the language in which the rapport-cards are handed out. That's just asking for trouble, especially in our schooling-system which is very much an intelligence hierarchy.

You need to look at both communities to solve this. The Muslim community shares part of the blame as well, and absolving them will just alienate the original population. Or do you think people here think it's all right that people immigrate from far of countries, live of our GENEROUS welfare system and then refuse to abide customs and learn the language?

Europe has some serious racial problems that it will have to deal with for the first half of the 21st century. I always have found it funny how some Europeans will look down on the US for all of its racial tumult, but in the US, the races interact. In Europe for much of the 20th century, races were segregated (not by law, mind you) into ethnic communities, and now that modern times have come around, it needs to deal with the fact that these homogenous communities will no longer exist. This is what the US went through in the 1960's, this time with Arabs and North Africans. Conveniently enough, it coincides with the right-wing Islamic jihad, which will make this integration far, far more painful.

I find it funny when Americans post this because they seem to forget that they've got quite similar problems with the huge influx of Latino's at the moment.

[Smokey D]

I don't think those folks knew/know much about French history :\

Most of them are second or third generation who have been educated in the French system, and bombarded with France's national mythology of equality and an overarching system of French citizenship. That's why they rioted -- despite the themes of France's national consciousness, they still feel excluded. And anyway, many of the protesters were educated university students in the Sarbonne.

Plus, the labour movement is still exceptionably strong in France and wins concessions on a regular basis.

[Hababi]

I find it funny when Americans post this because they seem to forget that they've got quite similar problems with the huge influx of Latino's at the moment.


It's not as severe in America, as the growth rate for non Hispanics in America is still higher than in many European countries. You guys are feeling the effects of social liberalism in a major way--negative growth rate.

Also, Hispanics aren't anti democratic, and they don't go around having violent protests at any sign of offense.

Plus they're Catholic :D

[coheneran]

It's not as severe in America, as the growth rate for non Hispanics in America is still higher than in many European countries. You guys are feeling the effects of social liberalism in a major way--negative growth rate.

Also, Hispanics aren't anti democratic, and they don't go around having violent protests at any sign of offense.

Plus they're Catholic :D

Who said anything about the French immigrants being anti-democratic? Or are you just quick to label anyone you don't like as anti-democratic?

[Hababi]

I was thinking more of the Danish immigrants, with the cartoon controversy and the murder of Theo Van Gogh.

[coheneran]

I was thinking more of the Danish immigrants, with the cartoon controversy and the murder of Theo Van Gogh.

Yeah, because a few extremists represent Islam.:rolleyes:

[Hababi]

They do represent the mindset of far too many folks who immigrated to Europe.

[ringworm]

Saying I won't take this...by looting stores, assaulting innocent people, and murdering people. Yeah, nothing says, "Don't treat us like criminals" like going out and comitting despicable acts of violence.
LOL, I swear, you are the ONLY sane person in here sometimes.

Yeah, because a few extremists represent Islam.:rolleyes:
Well, what-a-ya expect?
And masses of innocent civilians were targeted instead of a nation's government which was the real target.
If they aren't concerned who they target, why should we?

[coheneran]

Well, what-a-ya expect?
And masses of innocent civilians were targeted instead of a nation's government which was the real target.
If they aren't concerned who they target, why should we?

They're not concerned with killing civilians, so we shouldn't be either?

[ringworm]

I just meant in general, not explicitly directed at this thread, just the trend the thread was taking in regard to the social outlook on Islam

[coheneran]

I just meant in general, not explicitly directed at this thread, just the trend the thread was taking in regard to the social outlook on Islam

God I hate Islam.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

God I hate Islam.

Snap

The only religion that I like is buddhism


I don't suppose I'd have much against sihkism or hinduism if i knew anything about them though

[RockAndRoll]

I can't say I particularly like buddhism actually.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I can't say I particularly like buddhism actually.

I embrace their dedication to tolerance, their realisation that it's not viable that only joining their religion leads to "heaven", and the idea that all their teachings are there to be questioned, not learned.

[coheneran]

Snap

The only religion that I like is buddhism


I don't suppose I'd have much against sihkism or hinduism if i knew anything about them though

I don't know much about the history or practice of Hinduism, but you should read the mythology. It's really hot.

As for Sikhism, what I remember from my Religious Education lessons in primary schools puts me in mind of a peaceful warrior race. The turbans are wrapped so tight, they've been known to stop musket bullets, and they used to carry short swordy things around with them. I remember a lot of emphasis being put on inner struggle. I think the religion came from an enlightened guru, during a period of horrible struggle between the Hindu and Muslim population.

[RockAndRoll]

I embrace their dedication to tolerance, their realisation that it's not viable that only joining their religion leads to "heaven", and the idea that all their teachings are there to be questioned, not learned.

I think it does have it's redeeming qualities, but I think that can probably be said of any religion.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I think it does have it's redeeming qualities, but I think that can probably be said of any religion.

no religion that condemns non-followers to an eternity of suffering can be said to have "redeeming qualities".

[White Riot!]

no religion that condemns non-followers to an eternity of suffering can be said to have "redeeming qualities".

hmmm another smug , holier than thou attitude (irony is that you dont beleive in religion. pot calling the kettle black , no?)

its the humanitarian , charity and philantrophist work. Don't be do judgemental about the people behind the church. (its the church that is corrupt not the people)

As a matter of fact , religious people give more to charity than atheists.

[spitfirejunky]

You should reread his post.

[RockAndRoll]

no religion that condemns non-followers to an eternity of suffering can be said to have "redeeming qualities".
Yes it could. One quality doesn't nessecarily effect all others.

[Give me Beer]

In the case of the teens whose death sparked off the riots, it was a group of them using pretty much the only recreation tool the state has given them, a basketball court. Can you imagine a cop car pulling up to a basketball court and stopping a group of teenagers from playing basketball just to check their bloody IDs?

Just have to correct you ... they were playing football and it wasn't a court, it was a building site, they don't even have football courts given to them by the states. C'mon, French teenagers, what else would they've been playing? :P

Urgh, the newspaper headlined today: Flemish Youth is Racist and Intolerant.

I'd like to punch the journalist in question in the face. You don't make blatant generalizations like that in the biggest newspaper of the country like that.

[PerpetualBurn]

You don't make blatant generalizations like that in the biggest newspaper of the country like that.

You do if you want people to buy it.

"Flemish youth is pretty decent but has problems just like everywhere else" just doesn't sell news.

[Surgicalgod]

I embrace their dedication to tolerance, their realisation that it's not viable that only joining their religion leads to "heaven", and the idea that all their teachings are there to be questioned, not learned.

Same with Islam, you don't have to be Muslim to get to heaven. I think Islam is a very misunderstood religion; the people who want to read about it usually end up reading articles violently criticizing the religion. What I'm trying to say is: don't blame the religion, blame its followers.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Same with Islam, you don't have to be Muslim to get to heaven. I think Islam is a very misunderstood religion; the people who want to read about it usually end up reading articles violently criticizing the religion. What I'm trying to say is: don't blame the religion, blame its followers.

See, you guys need to go on a crusade OF EDUCATION sometime, because I was pretty sure Kafir went to hell.

[Give me Beer]

You do if you want people to buy it.

"Flemish youth is pretty decent but has problems just like everywhere else" just doesn't sell news.

Well, the difference is that this is supposed to be a "quality" paper. If one of our many tabloids had written that, I could've cared less. But I expect a certain level from de Standaard.

[shaqadelic]

Hmmm well where to begin:
In accordance with the Qur'an and several hadith, theft is punished by imprisonment or amputation of hands or feet, depending on the number of times it was committed.

A husband may divorce his wife whenever he wants. If the marriage has been consummated, the divorced woman must remain at her ex-husband's house for three months before she is allowed to leave. The man has the ability to retract the divorce by having sex with the woman within those three months.
A woman who wishes to be divorced needs the consent of her husband. If he consents she has to pay back the dowry.

Sharia does not allow freedom of blasphemy against the prophet Muhammad.

Need more?

Actually, like any source of law, it can be interpreted and changed to fit current time. The Caliph after the Prophet made alteration to the law such as abolishing the amptutation punnishment for theft because of society's poor condition at that time. Too bad that this mindset of interpreting in accordance with situations wasn't carried over through the generations in some area. However, what is clear is that it is not the Shariah law, it is the people practicing them. Give it to the right country and shariah law will fit just right in with Western's expectation. Bahrain for example yo.

[HaVIC5]

I find it funny when Americans post this because they seem to forget that they've got quite similar problems with the huge influx of Latino's at the moment.

The US was made to handle mass immigration and mass integration. From the ethnic immigration at the turn of the 20th century from Europe to the civil rights movement in the 60's, we basically know what we're dealing with. The controversy these days in America is coming from right wingers who dont have the first clue about immigration means for the labor force ("they're taking our jobs!" is a pathetic excuse, and doesn't take into account any of American history) and who are making the most ridiculous, uninformed claims about how hispanics are "unassimilable". I myself grew up in a community thats about 40 percent Salvadorean, a great percentage of whom are 1st generation immigrants, and there already is a huge amount of assimilation and integration. Comparing the Latino immigration in America with the North African/Arab situation in Europe does not make for an apt analogy. There have been no violent Hispanic protests. They are not a population alienated from society. They are not a population that has a special hatred towards their adopted country. From what I've experienced in my own community and from what I've heard about in Europe, I don't see any correlation whatsoever.

[Give me Beer]

You'd be suprised how alienated some hispanics feel from the USA. I think there's quite an apt analogy. The last times the black and hispanics really rioted was the L.A. riots, sure, but those issues have hardly been resolved. Hell, look at what happened after Katarina. Sure, the USA has a longer history of immigration, it's an immigration country, but it has it's own problems. So don't come here and tell me the USA handles all this so much better. And it's not so much that the Arabs have a special hatred towards their adopted countries, it's that they still cling to their old identity. The hispanics by the way do this as well, look at the big protests last year. I saw more Mexican flags than American flags.

[Surgicalgod]

See, you guys need to go on a crusade OF EDUCATION sometime, because I was pretty sure Kafir went to hell.

Kafir doesn't mean a non-muslim, it just means a person that is not a follower of God's 'path'.

Some distinguish between Kafir and non-Muslims, as Kafir is used by the Qur'an for people, who were guilty of rejection or non-acceptance of the truth, even after it has become fully apparent to them, while non-Muslim is primarily a term implying a person, who does not ascribe to the Islamic faith

You see, it's just that some Muslims are retarded; it's not the religion.

[Hababi]

You'd be suprised how alienated some hispanics feel from the USA.


Only those that live in districts represented by nationalist blowhards like JD Hackworth or whatever his name is and Tom Tancredo.


The last times the black and hispanics really rioted was the L.A. riots, sure, but those issues have hardly been resolved.


Scarcely any Hispanics were involved with that riot :\

And, as I said before, that was a bunch of criminal scumbags angry because one of their fellow criminal scumbags failed to bring down some cops.


So don't come here and tell me the USA handles all this so much better.


We don't make prospective immigrants watch a video designed to scare away Muslims.

[HaVIC5]

You'd be suprised how alienated some hispanics feel from the USA. I think there's quite an apt analogy. The last times the black and hispanics really rioted was the L.A. riots, sure, but those issues have hardly been resolved. Hell, look at what happened after Katarina. Sure, the USA has a longer history of immigration, it's an immigration country, but it has it's own problems. So don't come here and tell me the USA handles all this so much better. And it's not so much that the Arabs have a special hatred towards their adopted countries, it's that they still cling to their old identity. The hispanics by the way do this as well, look at the big protests last year. I saw more Mexican flags than American flags.
Were you personally there at the big protests/rallys in the US? I was. I went down to the one in Washington DC. You just saw the effect of a sensationalist media harping on a couple of misleading images. What you didn't see were the masses gathered on the DC mall carrying little miniature American flags, some draping entire large cloth flags over their back. The so-called "battle cry" of the protestors, "Si Se Peude!" (yes, we can!) carries with it the strong connotation of self-empowerment to become part of the American system. At least in DC, it was as much a patriotic rally as an immigration protest.

I'll withdraw my statement about how its not an apt analogy to the immigration situation in Europe, because it is in some regards. But I just dont feel that it is as nearly a contentious situation.

[Give me Beer]

Only those that live in districts represented by nationalist blowhards like JD Hackworth or whatever his name is and Tom Tancredo.

I personally know hispanics that immigrated to the USA and they say that a lot of people feel discriminated against by the mainstream population.

We don't make prospective immigrants watch a video designed to scare away Muslims.

Neither do we?

Were you personally there at the big protests/rallys in the US? I was. I went down to the one in Washington DC. You just saw the effect of a sensationalist media harping on a couple of misleading images. What you didn't see were the masses gathered on the DC mall carrying little miniature American flags, some draping entire large cloth flags over their back. The so-called "battle cry" of the protestors, "Si Se Peude!" (yes, we can!) carries with it the strong connotation of self-empowerment to become part of the American system. At least in DC, it was as much a patriotic rally as an immigration protest.

I'll withdraw my statement about how its not an apt analogy to the immigration situation in Europe, because it is in some regards. But I just dont feel that it is as nearly a contentious situation.

I wasn't at the rallies no, I just saw images, but you can't deny that there were a lot of latino-flags. Oh, and "Si se puede" is the Mexican national chant. :D It's the same one they use to supporter for the national football team.

[Hababi]

Neither do we?


The Netherlands does.

As for feeling intimidated, I think there's a very large percentage of the population that is very welcoming and non-bigoted about Hispanic immigrants. If you look at the immigration rallies (pro immigrant, obviously), many of them were dominated by white, native born Americans who went and were sticking up for immigrants against xenophobia.

[ChimPz]

We don't make prospective immigrants watch a video designed to scare away Muslims.I remember that one, cracked me up:) . Another ridiculous idea from a leading Belgian politician. Like the one to transform our only major airport into a big sports centre.
The Netherlands does.
Wait, since when do the dutch have one of those tapes too?

[Give me Beer]

The Netherlands does.

As for feeling intimidated, I think there's a very large percentage of the population that is very welcoming and non-bigoted about Hispanic immigrants. If you look at the immigration rallies (pro immigrant, obviously), many of them were dominated by white, native born Americans who went and were sticking up for immigrants against xenophobia.

Source please that the Dutch have a tape like that. Sounds like an Urban legend.

And of course there are people who are open and non-bigoted but there's quite a large percentage of people who discriminate. I've got a friend and she's on exchange in the USA, so she's there legally (She's Panamanian) and she says she feels discriminated against quite a bit by people there. Mostly the richer segement of the population as well. And I got the same stories from quite some others I know that went there/are still living there.

[Antifa]

My entire family is extreme-right including me. You need to look past what the media portrays it all like.

Is your whole family racist too?

[Hababi]

Source please that the Dutch have a tape like that. Sounds like an Urban legend.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2081496,00.html

As always, I make a claim, people dispute it, and I document it. Geez y'all should really just start taking me at my word.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2081496,00.html

As always, I make a claim, people dispute it, and I d0cument it. Geez y'all should really just start taking me at my word.

that's not designed to put of muslims, it's designed to put off the intolerant and the overconservative.

[Hababi]

that's not designed to put of muslims, it's designed to put off hyperconservatives.

:lol: If hyperconservatives means Muslims.

The last time I checked, hyperconservative Euro's and Americans weren't moving to the Netherlands. Muslims were. And so they went, "OMG WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!"

[roll dem bones]

That video should be required viewing for Americans too.

I'm moving to Holland.

[AA-12]

Is your whole family racist too?

Not by your idiot definition.

[Give me Beer]

:lol: If hyperconservatives means Muslims.

The last time I checked, hyperconservative Euro's and Americans weren't moving to the Netherlands. Muslims were. And so they went, "OMG WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!"

Hyperreligious Muslims are also hyperconservative. This is not about discouraging Muslims so much as it is to discourage people who can't deal with the fact that in the Netherlands prostitution, gay marriage are legal... woman's rights are respected etc.

EDIT: You don't have to think it's fine, you have to be able to deal with it in a rational manner. Not freak out about it.

[Hababi]

Hyperreligious Muslims are also hyperconservative. This is not about discouraging Muslims so much as it is to discourage people who can't deal with the fact that in the Netherlands prostitution, gay marriage are legal... woman's rights are respected etc.

Which would be most any practicing Muslim. It's designed to offend Muslims away from immigrating to the Netherlands.

[Give me Beer]

Which would be most any practicing Muslim. It's designed to offend Muslims away from immigrating to the Netherlands.

And any Christians too!

You have a right not to agree with it in Holland, but you have to be able to accept it and deal with it.

[Hababi]

And any Christians too!

But it's Muslims who are immigrating to Holland now, not Christians. Are you honestly going to attempt to deny this is an attempt to curve Muslim immigration?

[Give me Beer]

But it's Muslims who are immigrating to Holland now, not Christians. Are you honestly going to attempt to deny this is an attempt to curve Muslim immigration?

This is an attempt to make immigration to Holland harder as well as making sure that immigrants are compatible with Dutch society. Seriously, why would you want to immigrate to Holland if you do not agree with it's liberal society? It's not specifically targetting Muslims, it's targetting hardliner Muslims. You can be Muslim and respect other people and not beat your wife. In which case the video would be no problem for you. If you have a problem with the video, you'll have a problem with Dutch society, and shouldn't be there.

[Iskandar]

Not by your idiot definition.
Advocating segregation of races is racist.

[Hababi]

Seriously, why would you want to immigrate to Holland if you do not agree with it's liberal society?


Job opportunity?

Forcing immigrants to sit through nudity and gay makeout sessions just to get into the country is insulting to them and their religions.

[Give me Beer]

Job opportunity?

Forcing immigrants to sit through nudity and gay makeout sessions just to get into the country is insulting to them and their religions.

Why? Oh, because you don't agree with gay make-out sessions? Maybe you aren't a fit immigrant for Holland either.

Job oppertunity seems like a rather dumb excuse 'cause most immigrants are low-schooled and unemployment amongst immigrant communties is shockingly high.

I'm sorry, I'm all for immigration and I do not agree with a lot of measures being taken but this I think is one good measure. IF you want to live here you'll have to accept that in Europe we're liberal on issues like this. Don't like it, stay in your theocracy. If you're a Muslim and you want to come here, fine, no problem. But you'll have to accept our way of life and the way we think.

[ATC]

Why? Oh, because you don't agree with gay make-out sessions? Maybe you aren't a fit immigrant for Holland either.

Job oppertunity seems like a rather dumb excuse 'cause most immigrants are low-schooled and unemployment amongst immigrant communties is shockingly high.

I'm sorry, I'm all for immigration and I do not agree with a lot of measures being taken but this I think is one good measure. IF you want to live here you'll have to accept that in Europe we're liberal on issues like this. Don't like it, stay in your theocracy. If you're a Muslim and you want to come here, fine, no problem. But you'll have to accept our way of life and the way we think.

Seconded. If you plan to move to a country, it's best for everyone if you know what you're getting into. You don't have to agree with everything but you have to be able to live with everything. Similarly, if you're moving to a muslim country, you have to be able to live with shariah law whether or not you agree with it. Same principle. I don't see how its offensive in the least.

[spitfirejunky]

Job opportunity?

Forcing immigrants to sit through nudity and gay makeout sessions just to get into the country is insulting to them and their religions.

You know, it might simply be a cheap-shot method to reduce immigration. Who likes homophobes anyway. :p

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

:lol: If hyperconservatives means Muslims.

The last time I checked, hyperconservative Euro's and Americans weren't moving to the Netherlands. Muslims were. And so they went, "OMG WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!"

Which would be most any practicing Muslim. It's designed to offend Muslims away from immigrating to the Netherlands.

It's nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the vlues of the individuals.

[shaqadelic]

So when they say homosexual kissing, lesbains too? Doesn't sound so bad.

[Give me Beer]

Have you got any more details on the test? I've only seen that one piece which is so vague that it could mean anything from holding reactions of being slightly uncomfortable with the video against you to only keeping people out that start jumping up and down demanding an end to homosexuality.

I haven't got more information on it, because frankly I hadn't even heard about this until now. If however they show this, I doubt they're going to take "uncomfortable reactions" and hold them against you. They want to see if you can deal with it without making a scene.

I'm sorry but if you think you've got the right to treat your wife like a piece of cattle, circumsize your daughter, beat up homosexuals and spit on women who do not cover themselves properly according to your religion, you've got no reason to immigrate over here. Saudi Arabia and Iran seem to be better choices.

[coheneran]

I haven't got more information on it, because frankly I hadn't even heard about this until now. If however they show this, I doubt they're going to take "uncomfortable reactions" and hold them against you. They want to see if you can deal with it without making a scene.

I'm sorry but if you think you've got the right to treat your wife like a piece of cattle, circumsize your daughter, beat up homosexuals and spit on women who do not cover themselves properly according to your religion, you've got no reason to immigrate over here. Saudi Arabia and Iran seem to be better choices.

Don't condemn the women of Arabia and Persia to even more repression and humiliation just because you don't wanna deal with their chauvinistic "worse half". The way to heal fundamentalist grievances isn't to alienate and marginalise the society that it comes from. You gotta make a positive change in the communities, through working with them. Here's an example of how an economist gained thousands (or is it millions? Not sure) of poor Bangladeshi women economic independence from their husbands or fathers etc:

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/10/353571.html

Another example is, look at how many ex-fundamentalist families there are in Britain, that have been de-radicalised by the liberal multi-culturalism here. Alienating communities leads to radicalisation, embracing and integrating communities leads to acceptance or, at worst, tolerance.

[Tyr]

I'm sorry but if you think you've got the right to treat your wife like a piece of cattle, circumsize your daughter, beat up homosexuals and spit on women who do not cover themselves properly according to your religion, you've got no reason to immigrate over here. Saudi Arabia and Iran seem to be better choices.

Actually, female circumcision isn't very widespread. It is quite common on the Horn of Africa and nowhere else, really.

[Rebbe Goldstein]

Muslims are Very Bad Men. They are Very Anti-Semitic. Evil Terrorist men!

[neal_672]

Muslims are Very Bad Men. They are Very Anti-Semitic. Evil Terrorist men!

Please tell me you're not serious.

This post is going to be absolutely torn apart by everyone.

[italic zero]

um no it's not because he's a gimmick who's about to be banned

[Rebbe Goldstein]

Please tell me you're not serious.

This post is going to be absolutely torn apart by everyone.

Even The Pope Said so! They are Violent

[HaVIC5]

They really should have that 100 post, 2-week minimum here too.

[italic zero]

and maybe a 17,000 post limit too

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

and maybe a 17,000 post limit too

Big post count =/= smart man


I get new accounts every thousand posts or so to keep mine down

[italic zero]

I meant if they have more than 17,000 they can't post either

and use this ≠

[Iskandar]

and use this ≠
What's the number code to construct it?

This is an italic zero: 0

[italic zero]

i don't know the windows shortcut, for macs it's option =

[spitfirejunky]

U+2260 on Windows character map.

[Give me Beer]

Don't condemn the women of Arabia and Persia to even more repression and humiliation just because you don't wanna deal with their chauvinistic "worse half". The way to heal fundamentalist grievances isn't to alienate and marginalise the society that it comes from. You gotta make a positive change in the communities, through working with them. Here's an example of how an economist gained thousands (or is it millions? Not sure) of poor Bangladeshi women economic independence from their husbands or fathers etc:

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/10/353571.html

Another example is, look at how many ex-fundamentalist families there are in Britain, that have been de-radicalised by the liberal multi-culturalism here. Alienating communities leads to radicalisation, embracing and integrating communities leads to acceptance or, at worst, tolerance.

Uhm, I'm not condemning anyone to anything. I'm saying that if you want to be a fundamentalist Muslim and want the freedom to be like that, don't immigrate to my country because we have laws against that. Nobody is talking about alienating communities, on the contrary, I just don't want communities like that here in my country. Embracing and integration of communities by the way has to come from both sides. Don't ****ing act like it's all our fault that there are un-integrated Muslim communities. They have to make an effort as well. I'm perfectly willing to talk and interact with anyone that feels like it. These problems can't be solved in one day, but expecting someone else to do it for you isn't the right attitude either.

As for female circumcision mainly being practiced in the horn of Africa, yea, I know that, I also know that it's not really in the Koran but more of an African tribal custom. Whatever, that's not the ****ing point.

[Antifa]

Not by your idiot definition.

So my definition of racism is idiotic?

[shaqadelic]

Don't ****ing act like it's all our fault that there are un-integrated Muslim communities. They have to make an effort as well. I'm perfectly willing to talk and interact with anyone that feels like it. These problems can't be solved in one day, but expecting someone else to do it for you isn't the right attitude either.

Them immigrating in the first place can be considered a step to integrate. Not to mention learning the local language and etc.

[Give me Beer]

Them immigrating in the first place can be considered a step to integrate. Not to mention learning the local language and etc.

No, their immigrating is not a step towards integration, as for them learning the local language... you do realize that that is one of the pain points right? That they do not learn our language? There are third generation immigrant women who still do not speak Dutch, French or German, you call that integration?

[Light Light-tastic]

how can you call them extreme right with all that cultural conservatism you've got going on is what i want to know

[Give me Beer]

how can you call them extreme right with all that cultural conservatism you've got going on is what i want to know

Explain to me my cultural conservatism :).

I call them extreme-right because they're

1. über-nationalistic about the Flemish culture.
2. Still glorify the Eastern-fronters.
3. Islam is the religion of satan and all the Muslims want to do is destroy our beautiful europe and colonize us.
4. Their social standpoints: Abortion should be illegal, Gays are evil ... etc.
5. Filip de Winter saying at a party congress "Yes, het Vlaams Blok is for a white Europe.
...
Etc.

What cultural conservatism am I guilty of aside from asking immigrants to respect my freedom and make an effort to speak my language? I admit that there are integration problems but I see people here trying to absolve the immigrants of any responsibility. That doesn't fly man, integration is a two way process.

[Light Light-tastic]

You believe immigrating muslims who do not wish to integrate or change have a negative effect on Belgian beliefs or values, and therefore don't want those people to immigrate at all, which is a facet of cultural conservatism.

[Smokey D]

Er, by definition, immigrants who do not wish to intergrate do have a negative impact on specifically Belgian values. I don't know if I would go so far as to say this is a bad thing, but the impact is there nonetheless.

Where certain beliefs start contravening basic freedoms, however, I draw the line.

[Give me Beer]

You believe immigrating muslims who do not wish to integrate or change have a negative effect on Belgian beliefs or values, and therefore don't want those people to immigrate at all, which is a facet of cultural conservatism.

I believe immigrants that do not adher to our basic cultural values of freedom of religion, freedom of press, equality of sexes, seperation of church and state etc. have a negative effect on our society. I'm sorry but I do not believe that all values are equal and people who believe it is socially acceptable to beat their wives or murder gays have no place in my society. Nor is it acceptable to threaten journalists because they disrespected the prophet (or worse, murder them, see Theo Van Gogh).

Let me pose you a question, do you think it is acceptable to murder gays? To threat women like filth? To kill people for their believes? Sorry but not all cultures are equal and people who think like this are WRONG and should not be pampered under some sort of PC-dogma. Why should I be okay with people who believe in this sort of BS immigrating to my country?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I have no problems with moderate muslims who wish to immigrate here. As long as you can follow your religion without pushing it on other people, you're welcome to do so. But your freedom ends where mine begins.

[shaqadelic]

There are third generation immigrant women who still do not speak Dutch, French or German, you call that integration?

Is this the majority or few?


Just to clarify, I have no problems with moderate muslims who wish to immigrate here. As long as you can follow your religion without pushing it on other people, you're welcome to do so. But your freedom ends where mine begins.


You said that you are willing to interact but you seem way too confrontational even when mentioning moderate Muslims. I dunno how you conduct yourself in real life but I would say if you approach the issue like this, you would push away many moderates too.

[Smokey D]

There is nothing unnecessarily confrontational about insisting upon your rights.

[shaqadelic]

There is nothing unnecessarily confrontational about insisting upon your rights.

One can get their rights without being confrontational, use a softer tone, choose your words and etc. In this kinda case, it would make it easier for moderate Muslims (the people who can really make a difference) to convince their unintegrated rest.

[Antifa]

Explain to me my cultural conservatism :).

I call them extreme-right because they're

1. über-nationalistic about the Flemish culture.
2. Still glorify the Eastern-fronters.
3. Islam is the religion of satan and all the Muslims want to do is destroy our beautiful europe and colonize us.
4. Their social standpoints: Abortion should be illegal, Gays are evil ... etc.
5. Filip de Winter saying at a party congress "Yes, het Vlaams Blok is for a white Europe.
...
Etc.

What cultural conservatism am I guilty of aside from asking immigrants to respect my freedom and make an effort to speak my language? I admit that there are integration problems but I see people here trying to absolve the immigrants of any responsibility. That doesn't fly man, integration is a two way process.

And racism is a two way street.

[Give me Beer]

Wow, you're making quite some assumptions there. I am not "confrontational" towards anyone in any way when I say that beating women is bad, that harassing gays is bad, that freedom of speech should be respected and dealt with without violence. It stuns me that you are making me out as being uncompromising and culturally conservative for this. It's one thing to respect other cultures and it's another thing to pose yourself as being an uncritical moron. That is exactly the same attitude that led so many people to support Stalin's USSR and pretend not to see the totalitarion hell-hole that it was.

I am not talking to a Muslim in this thread and sorry but if you're offended by my tone then you need to take a good look at your ethical values because there's something seriously f-cked up with them if you think that what I ask is too much.

And yes, there are quite a few people here that refuse to learn our language. I wouldn't say it's the majority, but there's more than enough.

Also, Antifa, what does racism have to do with this? Are you actually accusing me of racism? Because I have in no part posted a racist argument. Please explain what you mean, because I do not like being called a racist.

[shaqadelic]

It's one thing to respect other cultures and it's another thing to pose yourself as being an uncritical moron. That is exactly the same attitude that led so many people to support Stalin's USSR and pretend not to see the totalitarion hell-hole that it was.

I am open to being critical but there are ways to say your views so that you don't worsen the situation (and this is not one of them). And didn't I say clearly that I do not know how you conduct yourself in real life and admited that I am only making a judgement on the way you posted? thus obviously I am making an observation and not accusing you of anything.

I am not talking to a Muslim in this thread and sorry but if you're offended by my tone then you need to take a good look at your ethical values because there's something seriously f-cked up with them if you think that what I ask is too much.

I think I have made this clear that it is not what you ask for (which I agree with btw) but it is how you ask for it.

[Give me Beer]

There's time when you need to be confrontational. We were talking about a video shown to immigrants willing to come here, yes, it's a confrontational video, but I think that it gives the right message. People have fought for thousands of years to get the freedoms we now enjoy, why would I smile when some people seem to be intent on turning the clock back? If you can't deal with what is shown in the video you've got no reason to come over here, because you won't like it.

I don't quite get how you think I talk to Muslims. Obviously I don't walk up to themwhile saying "Allah is a douchbag" and spit in their face. Neither do I support banning headscarfs. etc.

[RandyfromPennywise]

Posts by Wotan.
Your points of view disturb me.