I'm mixing my punk rock bands album in Cubase SX.

[Pete]

Does anyone have any general tips for things I should look out for, nifty functions Cubase SX might have that I am unaware of (I'm a total noob), or any other tricks up their sleeves to help me make it as professional-sounding as possible?

So far, I've made sure to put individual compression on all parts, and on my to-do-list is 1) to pan everything appropriately, 2) to set the levels correctly and 3) to find suitable reverbs.

Any thoughts or general posts of wisdom for a novice sound guy?

[Moseph]

Does anyone have any general tips for things I should look out for, nifty functions Cubase SX might have that I am unaware of (I'm a total noob), or any other tricks up their sleeves to help me make it as professional-sounding as possible?

-- Start at the beginning of the signal chain. If you can't get a sound you like from the mic, you'll never be able to fix it later. Another key point is to get a recording signal as hot as you can without any sort of clipping. That takes a little bit of work, but it's definitely worth it in the end (you'll also get better at it as you are more practiced).

-- Mix it at soft volume levels. Since you're new, I'd suggest probably mixing it at volumes quieter than you normally listen to music. This has two effects. The first is that it helps ensure you can hear the various parts of the mix, even at very soft levels. Secondly, it has the added bonus of making the overall mix "sound louder" (without reducing your dynamic range using heavy compression) as you compensated for low levels.

I already gave some tips for pop/punk style recording and mixing a la John Feldmann (do a search for it, it's fairly recent). That might help point you in the right direction if your band is going for that sound.

[Pete]

Thanks, that's some good tips right there. I'll look for that thread. You don't remember what it was called, do you?

[Moseph]

Thanks, that's some good tips right there. I'll look for that thread. You don't remember what it was called, do you?

No, but I went and found it for you (you'd probably have trouble getting it):

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489104

[Pete]

No, but I went and found it for you (you'd probably have trouble getting it):

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489104

Thanks a lot, I read that post and made some adjustments based on it.

I was also wondering if you, or anyone else who has a slight audiophiliac inclinement, would mind terribly listening to the track I've started out mixing, and tell me what would be recommended to change, and how. Just nudge me in the right direction;

http://www.rebukepunks.com/pete/surf8 prov-02.mp3

Any input is greatly appreciated.

[slpntrx5]

if the bass isn't just playing root notes, try and bring that up a little. i couldn't hear it at all. also, the guitars seem a little...hmm, what's the word?....lacking in clarity? i mean, it's hard to hear the note distinction. If i were you, i'd turn up the treble or just get the guitar player to re-record with a bit more treble and less distortion. but that's just me :p

[Pete]

I think you hear the bass fine, it's just that it's basically all roots on this song.

Yeah, I was thinking pulling the high end up a bit, but my bassist didn't like that sound. I don't know what to do.

[slpntrx5]

hmm...mids at least. maybe it's just me, but if the bass is up almost as much as the guitars, it just sounds awesome. esp. if he has a bass part that moves around alot and carries a bit of the melody. haha maybe i should just stop listening to rancid....

[Seafroggys]

loud bass is awesome. It was probably the loudest instrument in The Who.

[pitchfork]

Thats very very sloppy.
the levels aren't right either.

get the guitar cleaner, and add low end to drums (even though its simple they sound weak and ****ty) , turn up the bass a little.

The one thing to remember in punk recordings is you just want simple recording that sound good, no wierd effects or anything, not too much ****ing around with it. I'm sure you know that.

[Pete]

Thats very very sloppy.
the levels aren't right either.

get the guitar cleaner, and add low end to drums (even though its simple they sound weak and ****ty) , turn up the bass a little.

The one thing to remember in punk recordings is you just want simple recording that sound good, no wierd effects or anything, not too much ****ing around with it. I'm sure you know that.

What's "very very sloppy"?

[Benzum]

Thats very very sloppy.

the levels aren't right either.

its simple they sound weak and ****ty

you just want simple recording that sound good

:lol: harsh words there

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

very very sloppy is totally what punk is all about ;)

sloppy maybe, the 'very's were unneccessary.

[pitchfork]

well to a certain extent, but I found that recording to be sloppy, most punk bands (though I wouldn't exactly call that punk) can play in better time than that, might be latency problems, I don't know.

[Pete]

:lol: harsh words there

Yeah, I thought so too.

well to a certain extent, but I found that recording to be sloppy, most punk bands (though I wouldn't exactly call that punk) can play in better time than that, might be latency problems, I don't know.

Some of it may be, we had a big latency problem that consisted of the engineer having to move everything forward 0.03 of a second for it to fit. But it's mostly the playing, I'd say - this song isn't even supposed to be "tight" in that way, it's more of a hardcore rock song.

Anyway, besides the point of the thread, I want tips for mixing.

[Benzum]

how did you get such an annoying latency issue? 0.03? what a pain in the ***

you know most media players have eq that you can mess around with and presets?
you could in theory, try messing around with some of that in cubase, seeing if it makes the recording sound any better

otherwise i'd just recommend you pan one guitar left, one right, all that stuff, fade in some tracks, fade out others, but don't go nuts, that's the most important thing

[Pete]

how did you get such an annoying latency issue? 0.03? what a pain in the ***

you know most media players have eq that you can mess around with and presets?
you could in theory, try messing around with some of that in cubase, seeing if it makes the recording sound any better

otherwise i'd just recommend you pan one guitar left, one right, all that stuff, fade in some tracks, fade out others, but don't go nuts, that's the most important thing

I've done the panning, the cutting and the fading. That stuff not a problem for me, because I know how the songs are supposed to go and how they're played and soforth - I just don't have that audiophile gene in me that tells me how it should sound on a more, uhm, 'technical' level - and more importantly, I lack the know-how of how to make desirable changes to the sound. Hence the thread :)

Oh, and I have no friggin clue how the latency thing happened, but it was a nuisance and slowed down the recording a bit. Annoying.

[10571z]

I thought it sounded good. but theres no bottom end on the bass or kick drum?

[Pete]

I'll have a look into that, but the way I've understood it is that there often isn't much bottom in kicks in punk rock, it's supposed to have more of that punchy sound. I added more low end to the bass guitar, but I might add some to the bass drum too to fill up the lower end of the song.

[pitchfork]

Definitely do, if a kick is badly eq'd it just sounds horrible, the punch is from the full sized pillow muffling the crap outta it not the eq.
Thank god I love boom.

[Pete]

Definitely do, if a kick is badly eq'd it just sounds horrible, the punch is from the full sized pillow muffling the crap outta it not the eq.
Thank god I love boom.

No, it's not, it's from compression and equalisation - of course you can isolate the punch in the EQ and boost it. That's how equalising works, not only of drums but of every sond ever - you emphasize certainascpets of the sound. Seriously, do you have any knowledge backing the trash you've been talking about my recordings?

[Moseph]

I agree with the slop comments in the track. It's not terrible, but I think if you sat down and worked on the timing of the drums a bit (READ: massive, painful editing) then it could be solved. I would say it's off by just enough to be noticeable and distracting. The vocal timing has a few phrases with the same problem.

The bass is there, but it's very muddy in the range of the low end of the guitar. Give it a boost around something like 250-500 Hz to try and define it a bit more. The kick drum could use some low-boosts (ie, around 40-70 Hz).

If you've compressed your cymbals, I'd remove it. They have a trashy quality here and compression usually makes that gross. Of coures, your mileage may vary, since I'm getting an .mp3 and you're working with uncompressed audio. Listen to the cymbals and judge for yourself.

The lead guitar lines have a huge hole in the frequency spectrum to sit in, but they're very flat and weak. Play with the level and EQ of it, and it can shine out of the mix.

I also don't like the fade at the end. It sounds fine from a technical standpoint, but stylistically I prefer punk music to end naturally. It sounds like you have the natural ending captured on tape right then anyway, I'd experiment with not having the fade out.

[pitchfork]

No, it's not, it's from compression and equalisation - of course you can isolate the punch in the EQ and boost it. That's how equalising works, not only of drums but of every sond ever - you emphasize certainascpets of the sound. Seriously, do you have any knowledge backing the trash you've been talking about my recordings?

The punch should come from the drum to begin with man, a full size pillow should give you a very punchy kick indeed. I don't think it should be compressed at all, it just doesn't sound right imo.
Just because something has punch doesn't mean you have to lose the low end.

And yes I go on what I do when recording at college and stuff I have picked up and found out.

[Pete]

I agree with the slop comments in the track. It's not terrible, but I think if you sat down and worked on the timing of the drums a bit (READ: massive, painful editing) then it could be solved. I would say it's off by just enough to be noticeable and distracting. The vocal timing has a few phrases with the same problem.

The bass is there, but it's very muddy in the range of the low end of the guitar. Give it a boost around something like 250-500 Hz to try and define it a bit more. The kick drum could use some low-boosts (ie, around 40-70 Hz).

If you've compressed your cymbals, I'd remove it. They have a trashy quality here and compression usually makes that gross. Of coures, your mileage may vary, since I'm getting an .mp3 and you're working with uncompressed audio. Listen to the cymbals and judge for yourself.

The lead guitar lines have a huge hole in the frequency spectrum to sit in, but they're very flat and weak. Play with the level and EQ of it, and it can shine out of the mix.

I also don't like the fade at the end. It sounds fine from a technical standpoint, but stylistically I prefer punk music to end naturally. It sounds like you have the natural ending captured on tape right then anyway, I'd experiment with not having the fade out.

Thanks, seriously, this is the stuff good posts are made of :)

Yeah, it is pretty 'sloppy', but then again it's very fast, and it's basically first takes on all instruments (we didn't have a lot of studio time), and it's the only song we recorded in that session where all the drums were one take (not to mention 20-25% faster than our drummer usually plays). The vocals, I've noticed may be off due to the latency problem we had and I'm planning on looking into that.

Good tips on the bass, I wouldn't know where to start so that's good to know. Though I want a loud high end on the kick, I'll boost the low frequencies to give it some boom - I did a similar thing to the bass guitar to add more low end to the mix.

Unfortunately, the drum recording is of lower quality than I thought when we recorded them, and basically the only tracks that are useful are the kick drum and the snare drum mics, the other 5 tracks (one for each tom and one for each side of the overhang ) sound like absolute crap, so I don't have much control over the sound of individual drums beside the kick and the combined sound of the snare and the hi-hat. I'll remove the compression from the two overhang mics, and see if it helps, although any change to the 5 sucky drum channels will be nigh inaudible.

I've boosted the high-mid and totally cut out the lowest frequencies of the guitars since the last uploaded file - I think it's a considerable improvement, although I might've gone a little too high on the frequencies for the high-mid - any tips of which freqs I should boost?

The fade, that's more of a arrangement/songwriting question :p Yeah, the fade is basically a joke, because we want it to fade but at the same time the 'real' ending should be audible. I guess it doesn't make much sense, and I'm not at all sure about keeping it that way, but we'll see.

Thanks a sh!tload for the input! :)

The punch should come from the drum to begin with man, a full size pillow should give you a very punchy kick indeed. I don't think it should be compressed at all, it just doesn't sound right imo.
Just because something has punch doesn't mean you have to lose the low end.

And yes I go on what I do when recording at college and stuff I have picked up and found out.

When I'm mixing my drums (which this thread is clearly about), where do I put the pillow?

Jokes aside, 99% of everyone who records puts compression of some sort on [i]everything, especially bass drums. Having totally dry, live-sounding drums on a 'studio' recording would just be silly. I'm sorry if your college seriously teaches you that you shouldn't EQ and compress drums to make them sound their best, that strikes me as very odd and you might want to get a second opinion. I do agree on the low end of the kick, and I'll definitely look into it.

[Moseph]

Jokes aside, 99% of everyone who records puts compression of some sort on everything, especially bass drums. Having totally dry, live-sounding drums on a 'studio' recording would just be silly. I'm sorry if your college seriously teaches you that you shouldn't EQ and compress drums to make them sound their best, that strikes me as very odd and you might want to get a second opinion.

So...you asked for opinions, but you're going to refute any that don't agree with what you already think?

More to the point, compression is one of the most over-abused effects in the industry. Modern records tend to get compressed to the point of less than 3dB of dynamic range. This is both tiring on the ears, fairly annoying, and sometimes just plain bad sounding. Consider "Blister in the Sun" by Violent Femmes: the whisper section is pretty much the same volume as the loud section. That doesn't even make sense. Compression also killed "All Around the World" by Red Hot Chili Peppers: the chorus is obviously supposed to sound louder than the verse, but in reality, they're about the same volume.

[Pete]

So...you asked for opinions, but you're going to refute any that don't agree with what you already think?

More to the point, compression is one of the most over-abused effects in the industry. Modern records tend to get compressed to the point of less than 3dB of dynamic range. This is both tiring on the ears, fairly annoying, and sometimes just plain bad sounding. Consider "Blister in the Sun" by Violent Femmes: the whisper section is pretty much the same volume as the loud section. That doesn't even make sense. Compression also killed "All Around the World" by Red Hot Chili Peppers: the chorus is obviously supposed to sound louder than the verse, but in reality, they're about the same volume.

No, I'm going to disagree with opinions that I know to be untrue. Like when someone tells me I can't compress or EQ the drums, and should rely on pillows for mixing. pitchfork wasn't helpful at all, except for in pointing out the obvious flaws of my recording. Read the answer I made to your (actually helpful) post, and see if I refute that. And it doesn't just go with what I already thought, you helped me with actual advice on how to make sh!t sound better. Honestly, do you think I should consider every advice as valuable, and listen to someone who says compression and EQ is useless? But whatever, if you choose to read my posts like I refute people's advice, then you're stupid and I don't have the energy to deal with stupid people when I don't have to.

I've played in and recorded with bands for a number of years and I've read a bunch of classes about recording (though this is the first time I've actually mixed something on my own), and although I do want help and input, I'm not totally clueless. I won't compress the hell out of this, because that'd simply kill dynamics, but a rather compressed kick is pretty much a rule when it comes to fast punk rock. Also, since my drummer hits like a woman, I need to compress the drums for them to sound like he's actually playing them :p

[Moseph]

No, I'm going to disagree with opinions that I know to be untrue. Like when someone tells me I can't compress or EQ the drums, and should rely on pillows for mixing. pitchfork wasn't helpful at all, except for in pointing out the obvious flaws of my recording. Read the answer I made to your (actually helpful) post, and see if I refute that. And it doesn't just go with what I already thought, you helped me with actual advice on how to make sh!t sound better. Honestly, do you think I should consider every advice as valuable, and listen to someone who says compression and EQ is useless? But whatever, if you choose to read my posts like I refute people's advice, then you're stupid and I don't have the energy to deal with stupid people when I don't have to.

I've played in and recorded with bands for a number of years and I've read a bunch of classes about recording (though this is the first time I've actually mixed something on my own), and although I do want help and input, I'm not totally clueless. I won't compress the hell out of this, because that'd simply kill dynamics, but a rather compressed kick is pretty much a rule when it comes to fast punk rock. Also, since my drummer hits like a woman, I need to compress the drums for them to sound like he's actually playing them :p

He does have a point though. EQ won't do as much good as getting the source right the first time(pillows aside). Regardless, if you ask for advice and get bad advice, don't start an argument over it.

Getting back to compression: I very rarely have needed compression on loud drums, such as the kick or the snare. Typically I get a very loud signal straight from the mic, which is what is suggested since you're not tampering with your source any more than you need to.

[Pete]

He does have a point though. EQ won't do as much good as getting the source right the first time(pillows aside). Regardless, if you ask for advice and get bad advice, don't start an argument over it.

Getting back to compression: I very rarely have needed compression on loud drums, such as the kick or the snare. Typically I get a very loud signal straight from the mic, which is what is suggested since you're not tampering with your source any more than you need to.

I could post a sample of the drums dry, and I think you'd see why I like it better with compression. I'm going for a pretty specific sound, and in this kind of punk rock the bass drum is generally supposed to have a pretty tight, compressed sound. As is the snare. I have to clarify though, that the compression I have on them now isn't very hard at all.

Oh, and yeah, of course you want the source sound to be excellent, but then again, I also want to be a millionaire - I'm not, so I'll try to do the best I can with what I have :)

[pitchfork]

When I'm mixing my drums (which this thread is clearly about), where do I put the pillow?

Jokes aside, 99% of everyone who records puts compression of some sort on everything, especially bass drums. Having totally dry, live-sounding drums on a 'studio' recording would just be silly. I'm sorry if your college seriously teaches you that you shouldn't EQ and compress drums to make them sound their best, that strikes me as very odd and you might want to get a second opinion. I do agree on the low end of the kick, and I'll definitely look into it.
No I agree with compression and eq, we do get taught it but I don't think compression sounds good on that kick drum. Its too squeezed up man, even if a kick is muffled it still has gota sound a little more open than that.

Please point out when did I ever say don't use eq or compression at all.

[Pete]

No I agree with compression and eq, we do get taught it but I don't think compression sounds good on that kick drum. Its too squeezed up man, even if a kick is muffled it still has gota sound a little more open than that.

Please point out when did I ever say don't use eq or compression at all.

You said "the punch is from the full sized pillow muffling the crap outta it not the eq" and "I don't think it should be compressed at all", which I just find to be completely bogus (hey, what a fun word to use, bogus). I'll look into it, but I want a really punchy kick and I'm not gonna get that from the (in lack of a better word) crappy source I have to work with. I have taken your advice and added more low end to the kick though, but as far as I'm concerned the compression works wonders and is staying.

It's not that I don't appreciate help, but im the end it's my call and my opinion that matters :p

[Moseph]

It's not that I don't appreciate help, but im the end it's my call and my opinion that matters :p

Oh definitely, there's just no reason to bring in to question or to defame somebody's experience or opinions if you happen to disagree. It's rude. Especially since you asked for opinions.

[Pete]

Oh definitely, there's just no reason to bring in to question or to defame somebody's experience or opinions if you happen to disagree. It's rude. Especially since you asked for opinions.

Yeah, I got the impression that he didn't think compression or EQ could help, which is false, so I had to ask if he knew what he was talking about. Trying to help someone when you don't know anything yourself isn't really helpful, and one can never be too sure over the internet you know. Had to ask is all.

[pitchfork]

It's not that I don't appreciate help, but im the end it's my call and my opinion that matters :p

Okay just giving mine too, I try to help where I can.

I just don't like much compression on kicks and toms, I like a very open drum sound personally.

[Mr Benners]

I wasn't liking the kick drum at all really, it just got irritating as it stood out more than anything else. Also the guitars were too low in the mix for my liking. Although I could hear the general sound and progression, at times they were virtually inaudible except for a distorted noise. Either raise them a little in the mix or fiddle with the EQ, bring up the mids (probably low mids). If you roll off some bass from the guitars the bass might stand out some more too, its all about everything being in it's place in the mix. For example (you probably already know this) if you solo something from a mix, it might sound like crap to you but in the contaxt it works perfectly.

My main feeling was that the song was overpowered by the drums. You said you compensated for your drummer's soft playing and in a way it kind of sounds like quiet playing amplified. Punk needs a more ferocious approach in my opinion.

[TravisBarkerrules]

^^^^ You said exactly what I thought. You cant even hear the guitar. Being a drummer i love to be able to feel the kick and that kick is like a tom hit and not a kick it needs some bass. But thats me but drums down and guitar maybe up.

[Pete]

I'll repost the new mix later, I think I've taken most of your opinions to heart.