My argument for free, uncensored speech.

[Volumnius Flush]

So I was in the cafeteria last Tuesday getting lunch. I bought a couple burgers. For three years now, no one minded me taking lunch food outside as long as I threw away my trash first (wrapper, tray, ketchup). Some students had been known to litter the campus. This was my first day back at school after a brief stint at another local high school. I had missed about a week and a half of school so I was making sure the rules hadn't been changed.

I approached one of the new principals and asked him if it was okay to take my food out. He said no. When I informed him of the rules predating the 2006 school year, he went ballistic saying, "Son, you aren't hearing me are you! I told you...!!" Anyway, I tuned out and said, "I didn't have to deal with this **** before," referring to his apparent attitude problem.

To make a long story short, I went to ISS for three days AND got a ticket. There wasn't even a report filed. The person who told the police was another assistant principal who overheard the principal I said it to when he was talking about it. One person heard it. He didn't think the police needed to know. I'm almost sure this is illegal.

Here's the situation:

What happened to free speech?

Say for instance you speak Swahili. Let's pretend the Swahili word for 'f---' is 'muffin'. Does this make muffin a bad word? Absolutely not. It would be illogical to say that a muffin could be both good and bad unless we're talking about two different muffins, which we're not. We're talking about the same muffin, the bilabial 'm', the way it extends through your pouted lips, the bilabial fricative 'f' which rolls from your teeth, topped off with a nasal 'n', an 'uh' and a short 'i', you get a tasty biscuit-roll hybrid, mixed with an insatiating fruit such as grape or berry.

'Muffin' is a tasty treat we can agree. There's nothing bad about it. One could argue a perverted muffin could be bad, but the word itself is inherently good.

If I had used the word 'muffin' to express my anxiety, would I have been censored? Probably not. Although it means entirely the same thing. Anyway, more later, I have to go to class.

[semi]

so you are saying they are only words so its ok to swear right? if you had said muffin to him it wouldnt have been the same as **** to him at all no. words have meanings.

[rdavidson510]

Lol you're from Texas, what do you expect?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

"volumnius flush was seen yesterday soliciting prostitues" might be swahili for "lovely weather we've been having", but you'd still have my as's for slander.

[StrangeVision]

It's a school, they make the rules, stop bitching.

[La Revolucion]

Your argument makes no sense. Of course they wouldn't yell at you if you said muffin, it has no bad connotations. **** does.

[Amit]

itt volflush gets in MAJOR trouble at his middle school and whines about it on the internets through an INGENIOUSLY disguised and tactful thread

[Volumnius Flush]

Where are all those free speech, free press, libertarian, liberal socialist weirdos when you need them?

[Amit]

bitch please you live in america

[semi]

free speech isnt the same as doing away with language.

[Volumnius Flush]

"volumnius flush was seen yesterday soliciting prostitues" might be swahili for "lovely weather we've been having", but you'd still have my as's for slander.

But there are only a limited number of phonetics available to man. Inconsistencies are bound to occur. If I use muffin in a bad way, for instance, if I were to obtain sexual pleasure from one, then I have polluted the muffin. Does that make it bad? Of course not. Unless it's a blueberry muffin those are just nasty. Anyway, why should muffin be any better a word than **** if it's used as an expletive? The logical conclusion you arrive at is that words are not inherently bad. It's how you use them. For the record, I have eaten food I dropped in my lap.

I was simply expressing my feelings of ostracism, oppression, and that I felt disrespected. Nothing wrong with that.

[semi]

but we make words. they dont have life of their own. what everyone means by **** is offensive what everyone means by muffin is not. if you want to make your own dictionary at leas tell us what you are saying means.

[Amit]

itt volflush got in trouble for being dumb and now he is trying to rationalize his way out of it

you said a bad word in front of someone you shouldn't have said a bad word in front of and you got in minor trouble

deal with itttttttt

[Volumnius Flush]

itt volflush got in trouble for being dumb and now he is trying to rationalize his way out of it

you said a bad word in front of someone you shouldn't have said a bad word in front of and you got in minor trouble

deal with itttttttt

Yeah, $150 worth of trouble. Big government sucks. It will be the most expensive 4 letter word I've ever used.

[Amit]

yeah that sucks

but better to learn now than later

[Volumnius Flush]

yeah that sucks

but better to learn now than later

Yeah. But at least I have my own apartment.

[semi]

you can delete posts you know.

[Reaganista]

I think all conversations everywhere should be as vulgar as possible.

[uhhyeah]

Sounds like you learned a lesson about rational discourse the hard way.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

what kind of f'ucked up country do you live in that you were fined for swearing anyway?

What the hell crime is that?

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

True Fact: Obscenities are not protected speech

what kind of f'ucked up country do you live in that you were fined for swearing anyway?

What the hell crime is that?

He probably should not have been fined or charged with anything, but, yes, he deserved some punishment from the school

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

He probably should not have been fined or charged with anything, but, yes, he deserved some punishment from the school

yeah like detention or lines

not $$$

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

dont swear in front of your principle he wants respect

[Reaganista]

He probably should not have been fined or charged with anything, but, yes, he deserved some punishment from the school
you've got to be ****ing ****ting me
****er

[Alpepiman]

hmmm....


I really, I want to agree with you and take your side, but after reviewing the presented info, I cannot. Sorry.

[LittlePound]

to TS.
While i understand where you're coming from i disagree with you. And becuase you seem to be a fellow christian i'll give you a little something.
Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
I do agree with you that it's not the word, but rather how it's used that makes it bad. But seeings as those words are considered by the general populous to be "vulgar" or "curse" words than you should stray from using them. And not just cuss words, but any words that tear someone else down instead of edifying them. Even if you call someone stupid or a retard (i use that one a lot....) it's just as bad becuase you're using the word in a harsh demeaning manner. If 'muffin' had been the word that was adopted to say when someone hit their thumbs with a hammer we'd be straying from the use of the word 'muffin' today. Don't get caught up in all this junk of whether or not you should be allowed to say it or not, Jesus calls you to a higher standard. Don't say it.

On another note...i got in trouble last year for mismatching my shoes. I wore a red chuck w/ black sharpie on it and a black chuck taylor with red sharpie on it. I did that the whole first semester and no one said anything. Then second semester i get sent to the office for it. Apparently, after 18 weeks of doing it, it has just now become a distraction. So i appeal the principal (it was the vice principal who got on to me), he said i can't do it becuase at dusk, the red/black colors could be mistaken for the gang colors. Ok. What the heck? When am i going to be at school at dusk...and red and black are our school colors?!?!?!?!

[EinzingerIsGod]

TS. Let us know when your rights have actually been infringed upon. Everything they did to you is probably written in your school's handbook. I'm the first one to stand up for free speech, but you really don't have a case here.

[toolboy84]

A word is a word. I partially agree with what you had to say, but I think that's because you distracted me with the word muffin.

I swear all the time in conversation. My friends have no issues with it. My parents have no real issues with it. However, if I was to say something and in the context of things, I meant it, then it's a whole different story.

For example, in everyday conversation I might be telling my parents about how I was driving home and "some ignorant f--ker cut me up". They wouldn't think twice about me using the word in this context.

However, if I was having an argument with them and said "you f--ker" to either of them, my dad would probably hit me, and my mum would force me out of the house.

So it really depends on the context. It also boils down to our generation being desensitised to this kind of thing. We hear this language all the time and think nothing of it. 10-20 years ago, this wasn't the kind of language people used.

But seriously, calling your headteacher that? That's not the smartest move ever. It's common sense. Don't disrespect your elders!

Finally, it does seem harsh you were fined. If I'd been dumb enough to swear at my headteacher I'd probably have got away with detention or suspension.

[ThePinkPanther]

i've sworn in front of police before and never got fined so maybe its cuz ur black

[Alpepiman]

If you cuss at a police officer, you can be arrested.

If you cuss in front of him, that's different though.

[semi]

do you mean curse?

[EinzingerIsGod]

Cuss is curse is swear

[John Paul Harrison]

It's a school, they make the rules, stop bitching.

what kind of f'ucked up country do you live in that you were fined for swearing anyway?

He probably should not have been fined or charged with anything, but, yes, he deserved some punishment from the school

This is the summation of my opinion.

[Electronic Wolf]

I want to know why this thread is still open.

[Danger Bird]

Say for instance you speak Swahili. Let's pretend the Swahili word for 'f---' is 'muffin'. Does this make muffin a bad word? Absolutely not. It would be illogical to say that a muffin could be both good and bad unless we're talking about two different muffins, which we're not. We're talking about the same muffin, the bilabial 'm', the way it extends through your pouted lips, the bilabial fricative 'f' which rolls from your teeth, topped off with a nasal 'n', an 'uh' and a short 'i', you get a tasty biscuit-roll hybrid, mixed with an insatiating fruit such as grape or berry.
It's all about the conotation behind the word. It's a bad word because you know people are going to be offended by it but don't stop.

[RockAndRoll]

Meh, banning swear words is a terribly stupid idea.

[Volumnius Flush]

I think all conversations everywhere should be as vulgar as possible.

I like the note you left for me ;)

what kind of f'ucked up country do you live in that you were fined for swearing anyway?

What the hell crime is that?

America. I swear I'm leaving one day. For Finland perhaps.


True Fact: Obscenities are not protected speech

You don't support free speech!! You're just a Communist.

dont swear in front of your principle he wants respect

You're banned :smash: :lol:

hmmm....


I really, I want to agree with you and take your side, but after reviewing the presented info, I cannot. Sorry.

It's a matter of principle. You agree, or disagree.

Meh, banning swear words is a terribly stupid idea.

You have my back on this one. This may be the only thing we agree on you big, red, liberal you. :p

[Sexymuffin Vol. 2]

If I use muffin in a bad way, for instance, if I were to obtain sexual pleasure from one, then I have polluted the muffin. Does that make it bad? Of course not. Unless it's a blueberry muffin those are just nasty.

say that again punk

oh and i cuss in front of all my teachers, wtf?

[Volumnius Flush]

say that again punk

oh and i cuss in front of all my teachers, wtf?

that again punk

I guess no one caught my blueberry joke... :(

[Erik6387]

You're a Republican, but you want free speech? That's pretty contradictory right there. It's all about complete control over the people.

-Erik

[Volumnius Flush]

You're a Republican, but you want free speech? That's pretty contradictory right there. It's all about complete control over the people.

-Erik

I was riding in a van with my brother-in-law and his guitarist one night on the way home from a show. They are both liberals and both completely hate George Bush. They yearn for the economic wonder years of Clinton. I, on the other hand am a conservative.

General stereotypes dissolved:

They are both adamant racists.
I'm not a racist.

They are both anti-drug.
I am pro-drug.

They are both anti-alcohol.
I support the use of alcohol.

I don't like Reagonomics/supply-side economics.

Those are a few generic issues we're split on in the most unusual way, but they are still important ones.

[Reaganista]

ou're a Republican, but you want free speech?
what an asshat.

I don't like Reagonomics/supply-side economics.
what's not to like

[Volumnius Flush]

what an asshat.

I think someone hacked The Tway's account.

[Reaganista]

I think someone hacked The Tway's account.
No man you've been wrongfully charged

FREE ALL POLITICAL PRISONERS

[Volumnius Flush]

No man you've been wrongfully charged

FREE ALL POLITICAL PRISONERS

Whatever happened to the wonderful quality incarnated in your beautiful linguistically-charged responses? Now, I find your posts more and more consumed with hatred, animosity, and exceeding vulgarity. You used to be a revered and mighty poster in the PNWI, respected by liberals and conservatives alike. What happened to you? I appreciate you sticking up for me, really I do. But the exceeding sarcasm inherent in your posts leads me to question the foundation on which your support of me is erected.

[Erik6387]

I was riding in a van with my brother-in-law and his guitarist one night on the way home from a show. They are both liberals and both completely hate George Bush. They yearn for the economic wonder years of Clinton. I, on the other hand am a conservative.

General stereotypes dissolved:

They are both adamant racists.
I'm not a racist.

They are both anti-drug.
I am pro-drug.

They are both anti-alcohol.
I support the use of alcohol.

I don't like Reagonomics/supply-side economics.

Those are a few generic issues we're split on in the most unusual way, but they are still important ones.
I'm neither Democrat or Republican. I think the 2 party system needs to be abolished to stop a downward spiral in this nation.

-Erik

[Volumnius Flush]

I'm neither Democrat or Republican. I think the 2 party system needs to be abolished to stop a downward spiral in this nation.

-Erik

I think that it's up to me to save the GOP. I have to admit, I'm too far right to be Republican, but I side with them much more so than the Democrats.

[Reaganista]

Whatever happened to the wonderful quality incarnated in your beautiful linguistically-charged responses? Now, I find your posts more and more consumed with hatred, animosity, and exceeding vulgarity. You used to be a revered and mighty poster in the PNWI, respected by liberals and conservatives alike. What happened to you? I appreciate you sticking up for me, really I do. But the exceeding sarcasm inherent in your posts leads to me to question the foundation on which your support of me is erected.
Zoroaster was better at that than you
and what's wrong with animosity and vulgarity

[RockAndRoll]

You have my back on this one. This may be the only thing we agree on you big, red, liberal you. :p
Excuse me, but I'm rather average sized and skin coloured.

[Sunny Afternoon]

so you are saying they are only words so its ok to swear right? if you had said muffin to him it wouldnt have been the same as **** to him at all no. words have meanings.

It is the suppression of the word that gives it its infamous meaning.
What he's trying to say is, words are just words. If he had said 'I've never had to deal with this poo before' instead of sh'it, then nothin woulda happened. Technically, same meaning. It's just, people say poo all the time.

Geddit?

[dustindow]

Is it more the person saying it and the listener? Example a black person calling me a n!gger, that wouldnt strike as hurtful as a white person saying the same thing. Then if that same black person said it to another black person it wouldn't have the same effect as if it were directed to a white person.

[AmericanWeiner]

Free speech does not cover inflammatory (or obscene) speech, slander, or statements made with a high probability of creating unlawful behavoir.

Government 101 FTW.

/thread.

[Amit]

itt volflush is an ugly white boy who is still whining about getting in trouble for doing something he shouldn't have done

[Scythe404]

Free speech does not cover inflammatory (or obscene) speech, slander, or statements made with a high probability of creating unlawful behavoir.

Government 101 FTW.

/thread.

Hate to say it, but this is the truth.

We don't have all the free speech in the world and we never will. In exchange for national security, a democratic government and other benefits, we agree to give up certain freedoms and rights to those in power so that the state can function properly for the benefit of all under its care. It's the very principle upon which our democratic nations were founded, which is why i find it laughably ironic when i hear people whine about airport security and 'trading away freedom,' and grossly overquoting that Ben Franklin line.

We give up the right to do whatever the hell we want for the security of all, including saying things that, in essence, infringe upon others rights. Such as the right to be free from harm. I realize what you're saying OP, but this whole 'OMG VIOLATION OF SPEECH' thing is so completely overblown.

[RockAndRoll]

Hate to say it, but this is the truth.

We don't have all the free speech in the world and we never will. In exchange for national security, a democratic government and other benefits, we agree to give up certain freedoms and rights to those in power so that the state can function properly for the benefit of all under its care. It's the very principle upon which our democratic nations were founded, which is why i find it laughably ironic when i hear people whine about airport security and 'trading away freedom,' and grossly overquoting that Ben Franklin line.

We give up the right to do whatever the hell we want for the security of all, including saying things that, in essence, infringe upon others rights. Such as the right to be free from harm. I realize what you're saying OP, but this whole 'OMG VIOLATION OF SPEECH' thing is so completely overblown.
'obscene' speech should be protected, so long as it isn't slander or anything.

[AmericanWeiner]

'obscene' speech should be protected, so long as it isn't slander or anything.

I don't know that I agree with this.

There are people who don't want their children hearing that sort of language, and it's not like obscenity is vital to the daily lives of anyone but strippers and porn actors(actresses) anyways.

[RockAndRoll]

I don't know that I agree with this.

There are people who don't want their children hearing that sort of language, and it's not like obscenity is vital to the daily lives of anyone but strippers and animal photographs actors(actresses) anyways.
There are people that don't want their kids to hear that people die every day of disease accidents and murder. There are people that don't want their kids to hear that people abort their unborn children. There are people that don't want their kids to hear about homosexuality, or sexuality at all for that matter. People that don't want their kids to hear other people's opinions and points of view. People may not want their kids to hear the news or to read certain books, listen to certain points of view, yet it would be foolish to curb our right to free speech because of this.

[LittlePound]

There are people that don't want their kids to hear that people die every day of disease accidents and murder. There are people that don't want their kids to hear that people abort their unborn children. There are people that don't want their kids to hear about homosexuality, or sexuality at all for that matter. People that don't want their kids to hear other people's opinions and points of view. People may not want their kids to hear the news or to read certain books, listen to certain points of view, yet it would be foolish to curb our right to free speech because of this.
I don't mind if my kids hear about other people's point of views, but i don't want my three year old hearing that homosexuality is ok and seeing porn. I don't mind if he hears other people's opinions but it should wait until he's old enough to formulate opinions of his own on the matter....before that it's up to his paretns to bring him up in the ways they think are best bcuz that's what parents do.

[RockAndRoll]

I don't mind if my kids hear about other people's point of views, but i don't want my three year old hearing that homosexuality is ok and seeing animal photographs. I don't mind if he hears other people's opinions but it should wait until he's old enough to formulate opinions of his own on the matter....before that it's up to his paretns to bring him up in the ways they think are best bcuz that's what parents do.
Regardless of your views on parenting though we do not curb our right to free speech because people don't want their kids to hear certain things, 'obscenities' should be no different.

[LittlePound]

then why should i curb my right from yelling "fire" in a crowded building. You say becuase it endangers/infringes on the rights of others. What about my right to not have my child exposed to those things? Other people get to expose their children to that becuase they want it and think it's best, why don't i have the right to not expose have my child exposed to that becuz i think it's best?

[RockAndRoll]

then why should i curb my right from yelling "fire" in a crowded building. You say becuase it endangers/infringes on the rights of others. What about my right to not have my child exposed to those things? Other people get to expose their children to that becuase they want it and think it's best, why don't i have the right to not expose have my child exposed to that becuz i think it's best?
You can go ahead and shelter your child from other people's opinions if you want. You just can't stop them from voicing their opinions.

[AmericanWeiner]

RockAndRoll-

There are ways that parents can (and should, if they feel it necessary) keep those things out of the household. However, they are not inflammatory in nature.

[RockAndRoll]

RockAndRoll-

There are ways that parents can (and should, if they feel it necessary) keep those things out of the household. However, they are not inflammatory in nature.
Inflammatory remarks do not violate free speech, so long as they don't constitute slander or something. Nor are 'obscenities' nessecarily inflammatory.

[John Paul Harrison]

why don't i have the right to not expose have my child exposed to that becuz i think it's best?

You do have that right. You have the right to keep your family away from filth and vile that you don't want to be exposed to- but it's up to you to prevent that exposure. We can't secure your comfort by denying the rights of other's.

then why should i curb my right from yelling "fire" in a crowded building.

That's a public safety issue. People don't die by yelling "gay" in a crowded building.

[LittlePound]

You do have that right. You have the right to keep your family away from filth and vile that you don't want to be exposed to- but it's up to you to prevent that exposure. We can't secure your comfort by denying the rights of other's.
I know that part is up to the parent, but it's getting to the point where you can't even leave your house. In California they mandated by law that from Kindergarten up, kids are taught it's ok to Homosexual. So if i disagreed with that, or disagreed with my kids hearing that, i could not live in the state of California. The people who do live there have no control over that situation other than to homeschool their kids for the rest of the school career, which means they wouldn't be able to work (or atleast not a full time job) so very little money to support themselves on.



That's a public safety issue. People don't die by yelling "gay" in a crowded building.
i understand it. I wasn't saying it should be allowed. But i am saying it is an infringement on my rights to force exposure , much like they are doing in California.

[Reaganista]

Yeah I agree all adults should behave as though they're actually children
for the benefit of the children

then why should i curb my right from yelling "fire" in a crowded building.
um that case is way outdated
why do people always bring it up

[Scythe404]

'obscene' speech should be protected, so long as it isn't slander or anything.

I agree with this, mostly, although i do believe it's best to use common sense and simply avoid the use of the words excessively around people who may be offended by it, unless your aim is to offend people.

However, institutions do have the right to create language policies, and that includes schools.

No different than surrendering the right to do whatever we want in exchange for a democratic system, we surrender the right to do whatever the hell we want in exchange for an education.

[RockAndRoll]

I agree with this, mostly, although i do believe it's best to use common sense and simply avoid the use of the words excessively around people who may be offended by it, unless your aim is to offend people.

However, institutions do have the right to create language policies, and that includes schools.

No different than surrendering the right to do whatever we want in exchange for a democratic system, we surrender the right to do whatever the hell we want in exchange for an education.
I agree that people have the right to create policies and such, although for the most part I think those are stupid too, or at least most of them could probably be vastly improved.

[Reaganista]

However, institutions do have the right to create language policies, and that includes schools.

the authority for authority's sake means of conducting public school is a horrible idea

[uhhyeah]

the authority for authority's sake means of conducting public school is a horrible idea


Actually, language policies are not "authority for authority's sake." They are meant to create an academic environment which is conducive to learning. Simply acting like a jackass and cussing at administrators/teachers is simply unnacceptable in a school situation. Students need to learn the correct way to engage in a meaningful dialoge that doesn't include acting like a total imbecile. While cussing and acting like a super rebel may get someone places in some circles, students need to learn that it will NOT cut it in any academic setting.

[PerpetualBurn]

I don't mind if my kids hear about other people's point of views, but i don't want my three year old hearing that homosexuality is ok and seeing animal photographs.

If you're incapable of instilling your moral values in your children without trying to hide such things as homosexuality from them, then you fail as a parent.

[LittlePound]

according to some on here, i would fail becuase i believe in spanking my kids.

[PerpetualBurn]

Well that's marginally better than shielding your children from reality instead of treating moral dilemmas rationally.

[Reaganista]

Actually, language policies are not "authority for authority's sake." They are meant to create an academic environment which is conducive to learning.

banning speech doesn't promote learning

Simply acting like a jackass and cussing at administrators/teachers is simply unnacceptable in a school situation. Students need to learn the correct way to engage in a meaningful dialoge that doesn't include acting like a total imbecile.
If an administrator is a ****head there's no reason he doesn't deserve to be told this
constantly


While cussing and acting like a super rebel may get someone places in some circles, students need to learn that it will NOT cut it in any academic setting.
Administrators need to learn that they're never gonna get through to the kids if they continue to rely on intimidation and arbitrary displays of authority

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I know that part is up to the parent, but it's getting to the point where you can't even leave your house. In California they mandated by law that from Kindergarten up, kids are taught it's ok to Homosexual. So if i disagreed with that, or disagreed with my kids hearing that, i could not live in the state of California. The people who do live there have no control over that situation other than to homeschool their kids for the rest of the school career, which means they wouldn't be able to work (or atleast not a full time job) so very little money to support themselves on.

Bad parenting is sheilding your kids from finding out that there's more than one point of view on something instead of letting them know the choice and explaining to them what you believe and why.

[uhhyeah]

banning speech doesn't promote learning


If an administrator is a ****head there's no reason he doesn't deserve to be told this
constantly


Administrators need to learn that they're never gonna get through to the kids if they continue to rely on intimidation and arbitrary displays of authority

You may call it "banning speach," but I call it encouraging academic discussion. You wouldn't talk like that to your boss so why at a school?

While many administrators are a-holes, there are much better avenues to choose to express this rather than acting like a snotty teenager who thinks profanity is the only way to vent anger.

Punishing students for inappropriate behavior is not arbitrary. I agree the punishment may have gone a bit too far, but punishment was warranted nonetheless. I wonder how many people on here have actually had to deal with students who feel that they should act like total jackasses in class/school, and curse at/insult educators and administrators. There is such a thing as establishing order at school in order to foster an environment that is conducive to learning. This is hardly arbitrary.

[Volumnius Flush]

'obscene' speech should be protected, so long as it isn't slander or anything.

Precisely.

Why should I have to give up some of my liberties to insure freedom?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

[AmericanWeiner]

Precisely.

Why should I have to give up some of my liberties to insure freedom?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

I really don't think that's how it went.

The thing is, in America, you're free to change how things work, as long as enough people (usually about 1/4 of the population of your range of influence) agree with you, and as long as the remaining 3/4s don't feel strongly in the opposite.

So, write an essay detailing why arbitrary censorship of obscenity isn't important for a learning environment and present it to your classmates and administrators. If your points are good enough, you will have support.

[uhhyeah]

So, write an essay detailing why arbitrary censorship of obscenity isn't important for a learning environment and present it to your classmates and administrators. If your points are good enough, you will have support.


This would be the proper course of action for something you don't agree with. Although this particular position would simply be laughed at by pretty much anyone within the educational system.

Out of curiosity, how many of you guys/gals have actually taught and had to deal with this type of problem?

To VF: I don't understand where students get off thinking they control the rules and should be able to act as terrible as they please. How is this a loss of freedom? Please, tell me when we changed as a society and started cussing at school employees, only to call punishment for such actions a loss of freedom. I think a few more years of maturity will change your views on this topic. You must understand that you cannot behave like this in any professional setting. I understand your source of anger, but find a more mature way to deal with it.

[Reaganista]

You may call it "banning speach," but I call it encouraging academic discussion. You wouldn't talk like that to your boss so why at a school?

workplace environment, especially workplace environments where I can't call out the boss, are not conducive to learning or academics

While many administrators are a-holes, there are much better avenues to choose to express this rather than acting like a snotty teenager who thinks profanity is the only way to vent anger.
I can't think of any better way to rebuff a ****head than to call him a ****head
I might do something else about it later, but he deserves to be called out regardless

Punishing students for inappropriate behavior is not arbitrary.
declaring the behavior inappropriate is arbitrary
it's also arbitrary because enforcement vareis wildly

[Amit]

Precisely.

Why should I have to give up some of my liberties to insure freedom?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

looooool the irony

[uhhyeah]

workplace environment, especially workplace environments where I can't call out the boss, are not conducive to learning or academics


I can't think of any better way to rebuff a ****head than to call him a ****head
I might do something else about it later, but he deserves to be called out regardless

declaring the behavior inappropriate is arbitrary
it's also arbitrary because enforcement vareis wildly

Nobody said you couldn't call out the boss. Do it in an appropriate manner. It's kind of like Democrats calling Republicans fascists and Republicans calling Democrats Nazi appeasers. The debate is both juvenile and worthless...absolutely nothing can be accomplished this way.

If you think your boss is a ****head and you decide to call him that, you can probably expect to be fired in most cases. It's called maturity, an extraordinary concept.

Once again, punishing students for behavior that is not appropriate for an academic setting is NOT arbitrary. High school students showing an extreme lack of maturity and swearing at teachers/administrators is a clear violation of school rules and order, which is needed in order for educational institutions to function as intended.

Here's a thought. Next time you get a grade that is less than what you feel you deserve, tell your professor he a complete asshat. See how far that gets you. I realize YOU didn't actually commit the offense this thread is about.

Enforcement also varies widely depending on how widespread or severe the problem is. It varies from school to school on a "need to enforce basis." That is, If the problem is completely out of hand, the school will either crack down like Hitler or just give up completely. Both responses point to the fact that the students are simply out of control. Personally, I blame a lot of these sorts of problems on extremely bad parenting...I've seen it up close and personal way to many times to count.

[Reaganista]

Nobody said you couldn't call out the boss. Do it in an appropriate manner. It's kind of like Democrats calling Republicans fascists and Republicans calling Democrats Nazi appeasers.

the thing is neither of those are true
if an administrator really is a ****ing sack of horse**** then people should tell them

If you think your boss is a ****head and you decide to call him that, you can probably expect to be fired in most cases.
Not really
not that it matters either

Once again, punishing students for behavior that is not appropriate for an academic setting is NOT arbitrary.
banning speech is not conducive to an academic setting

High school students showing an extreme lack of maturity and swearing at teachers/administrators is a clear violation of school rules and order, which is needed in order for educational institutions to function as intended.

yeah
they function as bastions of arbitrary discipline
which sucks

Here's a thought. Next time you get a grade that is less than what you feel you deserve, tell your professor he a complete asshat. See how far that gets you. I realize YOU didn't actually commit the offense this thread is about.

O man I really wanted to after the last B I got
but I might have to take that guy again and professor subjectivity has way too much weight in those types of classes


Enforcement also varies widely depending on how widespread or severe the problem is. It varies from school to school on a "need to enforce basis." That is, If the problem is completely out of hand, the school will either crack down like Hitler or just give up completely. Both responses point to the fact that the students are simply out of control. Personally, I blame a lot of these sorts of problems on extremely bad parenting...I've seen it up close and personal way to many times to count.
calling a ****er a ****er isn't being out of control
it's being honest
administrators should be expected to earn the respect of the students, not randomly intimidate them

[666Ozzfan]

Once again, punishing students for behavior that is not appropriate for an academic setting is NOT arbitrary. High school students showing an extreme lack of maturity and swearing at teachers/administrators is a clear violation of school rules and order, which is needed in order for educational institutions to function as intended.

Ok, just thought I'd bring up a point about educational institutions punishing for bad behaviour. I'm at Otago University in Dunedin, New Zealand. A few weeks ago, there was a HUGE party in houses along a street close to campus. 300 students or so. Things got a wee bit out of hand, couch got burnt in the middle of the street, some people prevented the fire department putting the fire out. So the riot police got called, and 60 people got arrested, 35 of them being enrolled in Otago University.

Since then, the University has proposed a "Code of Conduct" in which, (as a condition of being enrolled, and paying course fees) if a student is arrested for misdemeanors, and whatever can have a bad rep for the university, you can get kicked out of the Uni.

I think this is entirely fair, and makes sense, however, most of the student population disagree, and protested.

Thoughts?

[Reaganista]

expelling people for being arrested is really stupid and not good for anybody involved

[uhhyeah]

Damnit, I just finished one hell of a post and got logged off!
Anyways I'll sum it up. I'm a teacher. I once had a student threaten to "kick my ****ing ***" for telling him to "quit throwing paper in class or else you will go to the principal's office." Reaganista, do you support his right to say that to a teacher. Granted, some swear words and foul language can be perfectly fine in the classroom if, for example, you are reading from an author who uses the words. In this case, you are studying the literature, not acting like a jackass; totally different.

If I told my boss something of the nature that VF told his administrator, I would face disciplinary actions (My boss is the principal).

Once again, it is not simply banning speech. It is instituting a code of conduct that is necessary for a school. It is just unacceptable to have students acting like total jackasses towards administrators/teachers. What a total juvenile way to act, especially for an upperclassmen in highschool. There are settings where one can act like that, but not school. Plain and simple.

We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree on this one seeing as we are coming from two different places.

To Ozz: It depends whether the party was actually on university property. Plus, if the students gave a bum rap to the univ. they absolutely have the right to instill a code of conduct. It's sad they actually have to go that far in the first place. I don't think I'd go so far as to expell them though.

[Reaganista]

Damnit, I just finished one hell of a post and got logged off!
Anyways I'll sum it up. I'm a teacher. I once had a student threaten to "kick my ****ing ***" for telling him to "quit throwing paper in class or else you will go to the principal's office." Reaganista, do you support his right to say that to a teacher.

Not really
he should probably be expelled
but if he told you to stop being such a ****ing tightass or something I'd say no big deal

Granted, some swear words and foul language can be perfectly fine in the classroom if, for example, you are reading from an author who uses the words. In this case, you are studying the literature, not acting like a jackass; totally different.

I don't why JD Salinger gets to say ****er and students can't

If I told my boss something of the nature that VF told his administrator, I would face disciplinary actions (My boss is the principal).

they don't fire teachers for nothing man
I didn't say you wouldn't get your balls busted for cursing out the boss
but I don't see why you should get the same for teachers
they aren't paying students to be in class

Once again, it is not simply banning speech. It is instituting a code of conduct that is necessary for a school. It is just unacceptable to have students acting like total jackasses towards administrators/teachers.
than why is the opposite acceptable

What a total juvenile way to act, especially for an upperclassmen in highschool. There are settings where one can act like that, but not school. Plain and simple.

We'll most likely just have to agree to disagree on this one seeing as we are coming from two different places.

ok whatever

[uhhyeah]

so it's ok to tell a teacher to quit being a tightass just because I told him to quit throwing paper? this was the third time I told him mind you.

Yes it is completely unacceptable for teachers to act in such a way, they should face punishment for similar behavior. I never voiced support for a double standard of conduct.

If you are analyzing the text from Salinger, the context and meaning of the words are completely different. Come on, as a college student, which I presume you are, you should be able to recognize that.

[MrSigma]

you are in highschool (daycare) what do you expect?

college is way better.

[Linkinbassist]

Look, whether you like it or not, there has never been true 'freedom of speech'. Let me explain:

Freedom of speech is the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want without coming under fire from the government or affiliated institutions (The Police, education etc.). Now in britain, where i live, i have never recognised freedom of speech as most would describe. Everything i say is subject to laws (Racial hatred laws, terrorism bill, religious incitement laws etc.), and i am censored whereever i go. I find it ironic that my A2-Level Politics classroom door has a 'No agism, sexism, homophobia, racism or religious hatred' sign. This is the most provocative section of society, the politicians of the future if you will, and yet before we've even walked in the door we've been stripped of an opinion. Its hideous, and i am not surprised by the ticket you recieved for swearing. Its serial Nanny-statism, and its crushing our rights to talk about whatever we want to talk about, whenever we want to talk about it.

[Reaganista]

so it's ok to tell a teacher to quit being a tightass just because I told him to quit throwing paper? this was the third time I told him mind you.

Yeah
and quit being a tightass


Yes it is completely unacceptable for teachers to act in such a way, they should face punishment for similar behavior. I never voiced support for a double standard of conduct.

there is a clear double standard
administrators get to wander around inflicting random punishments and students get to hope to avoid this


If you are analyzing the text from Salinger, the context and meaning of the words are completely different. Come on, as a college student, which I presume you are, you should be able to recognize that.
why does context make it ok to call somebody a ****er
and why is the context of calling somebody who really deserves it one an inappropriate context

[666Ozzfan]

To Ozz: It depends whether the party was actually on university property. Plus, if the students gave a bum rap to the univ. they absolutely have the right to instill a code of conduct. It's sad they actually have to go that far in the first place. I don't think I'd go so far as to expell them though.

But think about this:

Say you work as a teller at a bank. You steal money from another business, outside of work, and has nothing to do with work, would your boss let you keep your job? of course not.

Same reasoning for this code of conduct. Makes perfect sense. If it is legal and binding when you sign the enrolment, you have as such agreed, then it is well within their rights to expell. Or, as they rather put it, give you a "yellow card" meaning, you can come back and study the next year, but you don't get a rebate for the study you paid for when you got expelled.

I think it's absolutely fair, and will, as a result, make the university area a safer place, and more pleasant to live in. It is not only students that live there, many people with regular jobs, average lives live in the student area, near campus.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. The party had nothing to do with the university. The code of conduct was billed after this party. They introduced this to prevent this sort of thing happening in the future

[croniun]

It's a school, they make the rules, stop bitching.

I'm afraid he's right. You don't have the same rights in high school that you do in the "real world" (whatever that is...). It's tough but you just have to endure it.

And I know you don't want to hear this but you were deserving of some sort of punishment. Nothing more then detention though. Cursing in the manner that you did was an outright show of disrespect for your principal, even though he wasn't completely in the right. There were other ways to handle that. The fact is, he is your authority. Trust me, I've been through the same kind of thing and have been just as angry about it as you are but what I've come to realize over the past year or so is that those people are put in places of authority for good reason and learning to respect that is just a process of maturity. There's nothing wrong or shameful about obeying those over you. There's certainly nothing wrong with disagreeing with them either, but you should be careful in how you present your disagreement which you were not.

[uhhyeah]

Yeah
and quit being a tightass


there is a clear double standard
administrators get to wander around inflicting random punishments and students get to hope to avoid this


why does context make it ok to call somebody a ****er
and why is the context of calling somebody who really deserves it one an inappropriate context

Funny, I'm one of the least strict teachers on campus, yet have almost no problems. Nothing beyond typical teenage bull****, which I come to expect and just consider normal.

Administrators can get in trouble for doing that, and in fact do. You make it sound like the administrators are like snipers taking out students at will while the students scramble hoping not to get shot. Did you spend your teenage years incarcerated by chance?

You obviously have no clue what context is, or just do not understand the meaning. Here's an example: In Sex ed., students learn about male and female genitalia, the reproductive process, etc. During the course of this class, students often refer to body parts and certain acts of intimacy. sometimes words such as d1ck and pu$$y are used. Now, use those same words but in a different context. This time a teacher is discussing his favorite pr0n in front of the class. Same setting, same words, same students, but completely different context for the words. Also very illegal and inappropriate. Get my drift?


Cronium: troof

[Der Übermensch]

Where are all those free speech, free press, libertarian, liberal socialist weirdos when you need them?

Here I am!
And I will exercise my right by telling you you're a ****ing idiot. You, as a student are bound by the rules governing your school, and must respect the rules or face the consequences, if for nothing more then that thats how things work there.

[uhhyeah]

Here I am!
And I will exercise my right by telling you you're a ****ing idiot. You, as a student are bound by the rules governing your school, and must respect the rules or face the consequences, if for nothing more then that thats how things work there.

haha. True. To FV: And since when have socialists ever been about free press/speach? This isn't a partisan/idealogical debate. Common sense actually.

[LittlePound]

Romans 13:1
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
We are to obey the authorities except when in direct contrast with God's law

[uhhyeah]

Romans 13:1
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
We are to obey the authorities except when in direct contrast with God's law

Religious law does not apply in public schools.

[semi]

if he had swore at you wouldnt you be outraged?

[Spoonful]

Romans 13:1
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
We are to obey the authorities except when in direct contrast with God's law

ever heard of separation of church and state?

[croniun]

Religious law does not apply in public schools.

Yes it does. It just isn't applied by the public schools. Doesn't mean the students can't live according to their religious law in the public schools.

I'm not saying whatever your religion is, you can live according to it in school because that would result in chaos...Lord knows we'd end up with a Muslim who subscribes to militant Islam or a Christian who subscribes to the "God hates fags" movement. Just goes back to what I was saying on here a while back...we have to search for Truth. And religion cannot be excluded in that search.

[uhhyeah]

Yes it does. It just isn't applied by the public schools. Doesn't mean the students can't live according to their religious law in the public schools.

I'm not saying whatever your religion is, you can live according to it in school because that would result in chaos...Lord knows we'd end up with a Muslim who subscribes to militant Islam or a Christian who subscribes to the "God hates fags" movement. Just goes back to what I was saying on here a while back...we have to search for Truth. And religion cannot be excluded in that search.

That's what private schools and Sundays are for. The search for truth in public schools is basically the pursuit of knowledge outside the confines of religious dogma. I understand your position though, but it's rather here nor there for this discussion.

[croniun]

That's what private schools and Sundays are for. The search for truth in public schools is basically the pursuit of knowledge outside the confines of religious dogma. I understand your position though, but it's rather here nor there for this discussion.

It's not a true search for truth if you're excluding possibilities.

[uhhyeah]

It's not a true search for truth if you're excluding possibilities.

The possibilities are numerous and available in many different settings. You won't go to a religious institution expecting to hear purely scientific explanations of the world. I'm not making any value judgements here, just pointing out a fact.

[croniun]

The possibilities are numerous and available in many different settings. You won't go to a religious institution expecting to hear purely scientific explanations of the world. I'm not making any value judgements here, just pointing out a fact.

Oh well I'm not saying that the school systems should rearrange the curriculum to to teach every single worldview out there; I'm just saying that the school system should not have a rule to exclude the discussion of any religion just like religious groups should not have rules excluding scientific explanations of the world (not that science and religion are necessarily opposed)

[uhhyeah]

Oh well I'm not saying that the school systems should rearrange the curriculum to to teach every single worldview out there; I'm just saying that the school system should not have a rule to exclude the discussion of any religion just like religious groups should not have rules excluding scientific explanations of the world (not that science and religion are necessarily opposed)

You're right. Science and religion aren't completely opposed. Public schools do the best they can at explaining world views though. It's ok to discuss religion for the purpose of learning, but not for indoctrination/value judgements.

[Reaganista]

Funny, I'm one of the least strict teachers on campus, yet have almost no problems. Nothing beyond typical teenage bull****, which I come to expect and just consider normal.

other teachers being on completely insane power trips doesn't mean you aren't being uptight


Administrators can get in trouble for doing that, and in fact do. You make it sound like the administrators are like snipers taking out students at will while the students scramble hoping not to get shot.
No snipers are accurate
and usually in a position granting high visibility
I think land mine would be a better analogy for a typical school administrator

Did you spend your teenage years incarcerated by chance?

I did a 13 year stretch in the public school system

You obviously have no clue what context is, or just do not understand the meaning. Here's an example: In Sex ed., students learn about male and female genitalia, the reproductive process, etc. During the course of this class, students often refer to body parts and certain acts of intimacy. sometimes words such as d1ck and pu$$y are used. Now, use those same words but in a different context.
ok
quit being a pussy and admit that your bosses are dickheads
they aren't reading this site man


This time a teacher is discussing his favorite pr0n in front of the class. Same setting, same words, same students, but completely different context for the words. Also very illegal and inappropriate. Get my drift?

the kids should be allowed to set their own standards
when a kid calls an administrator an asshat, it's obvious that talking about asshats doesn't offend him

[Erik6387]

But doesn't God hate fags? That's what I read in The Holy Bible anyway. I figured that was the source for Christian belief. Guess not. If you're disagreeing with this holy book, surely you're not a real Christian, and you're going to hell. :D

-Erik

[uhhyeah]

other teachers being on completely insane power trips doesn't mean you aren't being uptight



No snipers are accurate
and usually in a position granting high visibility
I think land mine would be a better analogy for a typical school administrator


I did a 13 year stretch in the public school system


ok
quit being a slightly confuzzled sea lion and admit that your bosses are dickheads
they aren't reading this site man


the kids should be allowed to set their own standards
when a kid calls an administrator an asshat, it's obvious that talking about asshats doesn't offend him

Actually I won't admit my bosses are dickheads because they're not.

Explain how every other teacher is on an insane power trip.

Actually, the sniper analogy was a bit off. Here's one: Administrators can be like snakes. Fun and pretty cool when handled properly, yet dangerous when dealt with by a complete moron.

Let the kids set their own standards...Wow:amaze:

So if a teacher or administrator told a student that they were ugly, lazy, would never get laid, to stfu, called them an asshat, moron, etc., that would be ok? I sure don't think so and don't think it should be the other way around either.

Erik6387: WTF???

[croniun]

I did a 13 year stretch in the public school system

So that's a no.

the kids should be allowed to set their own standards

Lazy stoners setting their own standards. Wannabe gangsters setting their own standards. Airheaded barbie dolls setting their own standards.

Brilliant.

[Reaganista]

Actually I won't admit my bosses are dickheads because they're not.

ok you're right they might be reading this

Explain how every other teacher is on an insane power trip.

you said you were one of the least strict teachers
that suggests that most teachers are way too strict

Actually, the sniper analogy was a bit off. Here's one: Administrators can be like snakes. Fun and pretty cool when handled properly, yet dangerous when dealt with by a complete moron.

yeah administrators are kinda like predators
except they prey on kids instead of rodents
I like this one even better than the landmine one, because there's nothing malicious about a landmine

Let the kids set their own standards...Wow

Yeah I thought it was a good idea too

So that's a no.

thank you for this
it's not like that was completely obvious or anything


Lazy stoners setting their own standards. Wannabe gangsters setting their own standards. Airheaded barbie dolls setting their own standards.

Brilliant.
angsty jesus freaks setting their own standards...

either way, it's better than bueracrats randomly dictating to the kids

[uhhyeah]

ok you're right they might be reading this


you said you were one of the least strict teachers
that suggests that most teachers are way too strict


yeah administrators are kinda like predators
except they prey on kids instead of rodents
I like this one even better than the landmine one, because there's nothing malicious about a landmine


Yeah I thought it was a good idea too


thank you for this
it's not like that was completely obvious or anything


angsty jesus freaks setting their own standards...

either way, it's better than bueracrats randomly dictating to the kids

nothing random about it.

Allowing angsty jesus freaks, stoners, wannabe gangsters, etc. dictate school policy is simply moronic. Just what the educational system needs, a teenager who's best friend is his bong/jesus deciding what should be taught and how to act in an academic setting.

Nothing malicious about something that is built for the sole purpose of killing unsuspecting people...yeah

Me mentioning that I am probably the least strict teacher does not imply in any way that the others are way too strict. In fact, the ones who are too strict either quit during their first year or change their ways to make their lives a little easier.

[Reaganista]

nothing random about it.
yeah it's random
unless you think you catch every person who calls somebody a ****er


Allowing angsty jesus freaks, stoners, wannabe gangsters, etc. dictate school policy is simply moronic.
yeah why should the people who have to live under a system have any input on it
the serfs would get all unruly

Just what the educational system needs, a teenager who's best friend is his bong/jesus deciding what should be taught
I never said that

and how to act in an academic setting.

of course the kids should determine the standards
the teachers have no right to offend or be offended by them
they're the servants in a school setting
not the kids

Nothing malicious about something that is built for the sole purpose of killing unsuspecting people...yeah

yes, landmines are completely incapable of intending anything
so they obviously couldn't intend malice


Me mentioning that I am probably the least strict teacher does not imply in any way that the others are way too strict. In fact, the ones who are too strict either quit during their first year or change their ways to make their lives a little easier.
so you aren't one of the least strict teachers now

[uhhyeah]

yeah it's random
unless you think you catch every person who calls somebody a ****er


yeah why should the people who have to live under a system have any input on it
the serfs would get all unruly


I never said that


of course the kids should determine the standards
the teachers have no right to offend or be offended by them
they're the servants in a school setting
not the kids


yes, landmines are completely incapable of intending anything
so they obviously couldn't intend malice


so you aren't one of the least strict teachers now

Uhh, you can catch pretty much anyone who acts like a total asshole towards faculty. It's not that hard.

You're comparing whiny teenagers to serfs? That's so completely ridiculous it doesn't even warrant a response.

So wait a minute. First you call the students the serfs and now the teachers are the servants who deserve anything coming to them? How is this thinking logical?

How did you pull me not being one of the least strict teachers out of my comment? That was not present in my statement, nor was it implied.

About the jesus/bong comment, I was responding to you and cronium. YOu were both suggesting how ridiculous it would be to have a certain opposing groups rule the school. I stated that it would be ridiculous to have both of them in power in a school setting. Guess what, if students, or excuse me, "serfs" are in power, that's exactly what you're going to get; a whole lot of moronic ideas about how a school should be run.

[croniun]

you said you were one of the least strict teachers
that suggests that most teachers are way too strict

No it implies that he's less strict then others.

thank you for this
it's not like that was completely obvious or anything

Don't get mad at me because you hated those 13 years. We all go through it. We all endure it. We all deal with it. Get over yourself.

yeah administrators are kinda like predators
except they prey on kids instead of rodents

They kind of have to when they deal with teenagers who suddenly think they've figured out the ways of the world at age 15.

angsty jesus freaks setting their own standards...

Have to keep an eye on those jesus freaks.

it's better than bueracrats randomly dictating to the kids

Yea I'll bet they all sit around together and see who can come up with the most random idea to enforce on the kids then write all those ideas and put them all into a hat and then draw a different idea whenever they get bored. :rolleyes:

They're people with families to feed and take care of. They're people who like to go home after a long day at work and relax and be with their family. They aren't psychotic dictators out to get you. Once again, Get. Over. Yourself.

yeah why should the people who have to live under a system have any input on it

Because Columbine would become an everyday thing.

of course the kids should determine the standards

No, adults who have experienced the stress and hardships that comes with taking care of themselves and others should determine the standards. Not a bunch of kids who go home to play playstation or get high.

the teachers have no right to offend or be offended by them

At least you're making some progress. And of course the teacher doesn't have the right to offend them in the sense that it's ok to treat them like animals but the teacher has every right to demand respect and obedience.

they're the servants in a school setting

No one is a servant in the school setting.

[PerpetualBurn]

Because Columbine would become an everyday thing.

Columbine was definitely a product of too much freedom of speech in schools.

No one is a servant in the school setting.

Education is a service. Services are provided by servants.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Because Columbine would become an everyday thing.



you're right if schools had some limited form of democracy the result would be everyone voting to get shot



Anyway, I don't know if you americains realise but the school is there for your benefit? They have to educate a large number of children (on a pretty limited budget, in state schools) and they cannot do that in an environment devoid of enforced respect for authority.

I personally find that behaving like an adult gets me treated like one, and telling your headteacher that you don't have to take this **** is not a very adult thing

[Amit]

It's not a true search for truth if you're excluding possibilities.

it is perfectly acceptable to exclude non-academic possibilities in the academic search for truth

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

school is gay

[Amit]

i dunno about you guys but i had an awesome time in high school

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

i heard this story before

its fun in a lot of ways for me
but is very inconvenient to my slothfullness

[croniun]

Columbine was definitely a product of too much freedom of speech in schools.

If the students set the standards, Columbine would be an everyday thing.

Education is a service. Services are provided by servants

'Servant' has a negative sound to it. No one is a servant in that they're there to be servants to a teacher or a principal or whoever. If you want to make the argument that students are forced against their will to go to school and obey their teachers, fine, but once again, they're kids/teenagers. They can't be allowed to make the rules and no sane person would say that they should.

you're right if schools had some limited form of democracy the result would be everyone voting to get shot

What the heck is limited democracy? I mean, it's fine if they're involved in things like designing a school yearbook or desiging school shirts (which would still require supervision because some of the idiots out there) and other things like that but they should have no authority over the rules that are made. They can disagree, they can respectfully present their disagreements but the administration should never at any point be obligated to do what a student says.

it is perfectly acceptable to exclude non-academic possibilities in the academic search for truth

When searching for Truth, exclude no possibilities. The result is false dichotomies.

[RockAndRoll]

If the students set the standards, Columbine would be an everyday thing.
I think of all people students would be the last to want students to be gunned down on a daily basis.

[Amit]

When searching for Truth, exclude no possibilities. The result is false dichotomies.

good luck if you ever go into science then

[croniun]

I think of all people students would be the last to want students to be gunned down on a daily basis.

Do you honestly think I meant that?

good luck if you ever go into science then

I'm a Christian. Christianity isn't opposed to science. The discussion of religion should not be banned from science classes. No, science class should not include in the curriculum lectures on religion but it should not be against the rules to discuss it if it is brought up. Furthemore, I'm talking about the search for truth in general; not just in a school setting.

[RockAndRoll]

Do you honestly think I meant that?
:lol:
Well I'm never quite sure on these boards....

[Reaganista]

Uhh, you can catch pretty much anyone who acts like a total spatula towards faculty. It's not that hard.

not as long as different faculty interpert the rules differently

You're comparing whiny teenagers to serfs? That's so completely ridiculous it doesn't even warrant a response.

No I was saying that that was the same kind of argument that was used against giving common people input in their everyday lives

So wait a minute. First you call the students the serfs and now the teachers are the servants who deserve anything coming to them? How is this thinking logical?

teachers are being paid to provide a service
students are there to be served

How did you pull me not being one of the least strict teachers out of my comment? That was not present in my statement, nor was it implied.

You said all strict teachers either stop being strict or quit


About the jesus/bong comment, I was responding to you and cronium. YOu were both suggesting how ridiculous it would be to have a certain opposing groups rule the school. I stated that it would be ridiculous to have both of them in power in a school setting. Guess what, if students, or excuse me, "serfs" are in power, that's exactly what you're going to get; a whole lot of moronic ideas about how a school should be run.
that would be no change from the stasus quo then
but in reality having a whole bunch of moronic ideas is better than having one moronic idea, as there's a far greater chance of good ideas accidentally being developed.

No it implies that he's less strict then others.
and anybody more strict than him is way too strict

Don't get mad at me because you hated those 13 years. We all go through it. We all endure it. We all deal with it. Get over yourself.

really I didn't start to hate them until after I'd left
although I hated like 7th grade when I was there, too

They kind of have to when they deal with teenagers who suddenly think they've figured out the ways of the world at age 15.

and they act as though any kids having any ideas of any merit is a complete impossibility

Have to keep an eye on those jesus freaks.

two eyes

Yea I'll bet they all sit around together and see who can come up with the most random idea to enforce on the kids then write all those ideas and put them all into a hat and then draw a different idea whenever they get bored.

no they don't all sit around trying to come up with ideas
that would be better than what they do
which is wander around the school randomly inflicting authority
and occiasionally trying to project their authority out of the school

Because Columbine would become an everyday thing.

yeah because when you let somebody vote the first thing they do is try to kill each other

No, adults who have experienced the stress and hardships that comes with taking care of themselves and others should determine the standards. Not a bunch of kids who go home to play playstation or get high.

what the hell do stress and hardships have to do with running a school for the benefit of those it serves

At least you're making some progress. And of course the teacher doesn't have the right to offend them in the sense that it's ok to treat them like animals but the teacher has every right to demand respect and obedience.

they have every right to try to deserve it
if they don't they shouldn't be allowed to randomly intimidate their way to it


No one is a servant in the school setting.
Oh I hadn't realized that teachers weren't providing a service
I guess they should just be fired then
what are we paying them for

[PerpetualBurn]

If the students set the standards, Columbine would be an everyday thing.

Because as we all know, all students are bloodthirsty gunmen. I agree.

'Servant' has a negative sound to it.

Boo hoo.

What a terrible attempt at an argument.

No one is a servant in that they're there to be servants to a teacher or a principal or whoever. If you want to make the argument that students are forced against their will to go to school and obey their teachers, fine, but once again, they're kids/teenagers. They can't be allowed to make the rules and no sane person would say that they should.

You can be a willing employ and a servant.

You're thinking of a slave.

And this discussion is about standards of speech allowed. And all speech should be allowed.

[uhhyeah]

not as long as different faculty interpert the rules differently


No I was saying that that was the same kind of argument that was used against giving common people input in their everyday lives


teachers are being paid to provide a service
students are there to be served


You said all strict teachers either stop being strict or quit


that would be no change from the stasus quo then
but in reality having a whole bunch of moronic ideas is better than having one moronic idea, as there's a far greater chance of good ideas accidentally being developed.


and anybody more strict than him is way too strict


You have to realize that students are there to get an education. There are responsibilities that come with getting an education and getting older, maturity and knowledge of how to perform in certain situations are certainly a few.

So let me ask you something. If you had a child who at 14 years old, hell even younger, who said, "dad, I think you are a ****ing moron and I'm going to start making the rules. You now have to do what I say and just shut the **** up. I'm 14 and by god I know everything. I don't want to clean my room, do chores or homework, and will demand that you pay me a pretty hefty allowance with no questions asked. And if you smell any scent of marijuana coming from my room just mind your own ****ing business." Would you just say "ok." If so, then grow some ****ing balls.

[Amit]

I'm a Christian. Christianity isn't opposed to science.

history and current news seems to give me a different impression

The discussion of religion should not be banned from science classes.

why not

No, science class should not include in the curriculum lectures on religion but it should not be against the rules to discuss it if it is brought up.

religion is completely contrary to the whole nature of science and the scientific method; you, me, and everyone else out there can't tell me what evidence you utilize to believe in your particular faith

that's the whole point of faith

using the "i know i am right because it is what i believe" line doesn't fly very well in science

Furthemore, I'm talking about the search for truth in general; not just in a school setting.

well apparently you're the only one

[Surtr]

You have to realize that students are there to get an education. There are responsibilities that come with getting an education and getting older, maturity and knowledge of how to perform in certain situations are certainly a few.

So let me ask you something. If you had a child who at 14 years old, hell even younger, who said, "dad, I think you are a ****ing moron and I'm going to start making the rules. You now have to do what I say and just shut the **** up. I'm 14 and by god I know everything. I don't want to clean my room, do chores or homework, and will demand that you pay me a pretty hefty allowance with no questions asked. And if you smell any scent of marijuana coming from my room just mind your own ****ing business." Would you just say "ok." If so, then grow some ****ing balls.
No. But, those are extremely obviously stupid things.

I think you should be allowed to use swear words in School, just not aimed at anyone. For example, you f over your Math test, you should be allowed to say "****!". But you shouldn't be able to tell off teachers and such.

[Reaganista]

You have to realize that students are there to get an education.

I think you're the one who has to realize that

There are responsibilities that come with getting an education and getting older, maturity and knowledge of how to perform in certain situations are certainly a few.

kids don't need more practice being told what to do
they get enough already


So let me ask you something. If you had a child who at 14 years old, hell even younger, who said, "dad, I think you are a ****ing moron and I'm going to start making the rules. You now have to do what I say and just shut the **** up. I'm 14 and by god I know everything. I don't want to clean my room, do chores or homework, and will demand that you pay me a pretty hefty allowance with no questions asked. And if you smell any scent of marijuana coming from my room just mind your own ****ing business." Would you just say "ok." If so, then grow some ****ing balls.
No I wouldn't say ok
teachers aren't kids' parents
their relationship shouldn't be modelled on or resemble the parental relationship

[YDtoad]

No. But, those are extremely obviously stupid things.

I think you should be allowed to use swear words in School, just not aimed at anyone. For example, you f over your Math test, you should be allowed to say "****!". But you shouldn't be able to tell off teachers and such.

Swearing reflects poorly on you.

[RockAndRoll]

Even if it does banning things for refelcting poorly on you is a stupid idea.

[YDtoad]

Even if it does banning things for refelcting poorly on you is a stupid idea.

But it's a school, where you have no rights :p

Of course, I think all schools should have uniforms, too. And go year round.

[RockAndRoll]

But it's a school, where you have no rights :p

Of course, I think all schools should have uniforms, too. And go year round.

Don't forget the wippings for lefties!

[Surtr]

Don't forget the wippings for lefties!

/Is a leftie

/Swears alot

/Doesn't want to wear a uniform

:(

[Nick]

I respect teachers who respect me.

[Reaganista]

Of course, I think all schools should have uniforms, too. And go year round.
I don't know how I feel about uniforms
but of course school should go year round

[uhhyeah]

No. But, those are extremely obviously stupid things.

I think you should be allowed to use swear words in School, just not aimed at anyone. For example, you f over your Math test, you should be allowed to say "****!". But you shouldn't be able to tell off teachers and such.

That's awesome. I'm not talking about just being able to swear in school. I'm discussing the situation of students determining the standards they are held up to. Basically, Reaganista thinks students who don't know their @$$hole from a hole in the ground should be in charge of their education.

[uhhyeah]

I think you're the one who has to realize that


kids don't need more practice being told what to do
they get enough already


No I wouldn't say ok
teachers aren't kids' parents
their relationship shouldn't be modelled on or resemble the parental relationship

Actually, I realize students are there to recieve an education. That opportunity cannot be wasted by ridiculous suggestions such as your own. You have probably never taught a single class in your entire life and act as if you know everything there is to know about the way a school does or should work.

some kids do need the practice, trust me.

Ok. So a parent can tell their child that they won't take any ****, but when a teacher says it, it's automatically wrong. Why is that? Why do you have such a hatred for school? You can't seriously think that students are oppressed. That's just ridiculous.

[AmericanWeiner]

It's my personal opinion that the student body should have some say in their education, but it should be very little in comparison to administration and teachers.

For instance, if there were nine votes to add a program, administration should count 5 of them (because they know what the budget and expectations are), educational psychologists should count 3 of them, and the student body should count 1.

Teachers are then selected based on the decisions.

edit: I might actually incorporate this into my essay on public schools I have coming up.

[LittlePound]

I personally find that behaving like an adult gets me treated like one, and telling your headteacher that you don't have to take this **** is not a very adult thing
I guess it depends on where you live. Here, a lot of the adults i've worked with do act like that...
In fact...i had a co-worker who got fired for some sort of racist comment come back into the store a minute later and physically attack the manager while telling him he didn't have to "take this ****"

[uhhyeah]

No doubt, students should be able to vote for student council and other things of that nature. That's about as far as it should go though as far as students setting their own standards. After all, student council is largely a popularity contest, and those that are elected are pretty much powerless. Students also get the practice and satisfaction of voting.

[Reaganista]

Actually, I realize students are there to recieve an education. That opportunity cannot be wasted by ridiculous suggestions such as your own.

oh well if you just say they're ridiculous then you shouldn't have to have an argument or anything

You have probably never taught a single class in your entire life and act as if you know everything there is to know about the way a school does or should work.

of course I know how a school should work

some kids do need the practice, trust me.

no they don't, trust me

Ok. So a parent can tell their child that they won't take any ****, but when a teacher says it, it's automatically wrong. Why is that?
because teachers should have to earn the student's respect
they're the ones being paid

Why do you have such a hatred for school? You can't seriously think that students are oppressed. That's just ridiculous.
I don't know if being forced to participate in a horribly ****er-up institution constitutes oppression. relatively speaking it certainly doesn't
but that hardly matters

[AmericanWeiner]

Oh I didn't mean student gov't or council.

I meant that they should have a partial vote in what courses of study are available and what programs (extra curriculars) are presented.

It's such a small vote that they would only be effective if the panel of experts and the administration were split 1/2 and 1/2, though.

So if 4 out of 5 administrators were against a new music ensemble, and the psychologists unanimously favored it, the student body may choose to side with the one administrator that believes it's doable, and the program would be developed.

[Reaganista]

I think grades are the only thing teachers really have any right to be in control of

and even that could be done away with if we relied more on things like interviews, essays and standardized tests in college admissions
which may or may not be a good thing
I don't know

[AmericanWeiner]

and even that could be done away with if we relied more on things like interviews, essays and standardized tests in college admissions
which may or may not be a good thing
I don't know


This is perhaps the first thing you've said that I agree with.

The reason high school churns out idiots is because it's possible to succeed in high school without knowing the material or understanding critical approach to academics.

College on the other hand take a much more liberal you-learn-it-or-you-pay-us-to-fail-you method.

[wrongz]

completely free uncensored speech in all fasions and aspects is a terrible idea

[uhhyeah]

Oh I didn't mean student gov't or council.

I meant that they should have a partial vote in what courses of study are available and what programs (extra curriculars) are presented.

It's such a small vote that they would only be effective if the panel of experts and the administration were split 1/2 and 1/2, though.

So if 4 out of 5 administrators were against a new music ensemble, and the psychologists unanimously favored it, the student body may choose to side with the one administrator that believes it's doable, and the program would be developed.

Oh, ok. I was tired as hell when I responded earlier...didn't really take much time to read carefully. Yeah, I can totally see that. I definitely think students should be encouraged to involve themselves in the educational process as much as possible. Letting them take over and act like idiots is a totally diff. thing though. I think a lot of understanding about why things are the way they are could be learned just by having students involve themselves a bit.

[uhhyeah]

I think grades are the only thing teachers really have any right to be in control of

and even that could be done away with if we relied more on things like interviews, essays and standardized tests in college admissions
which may or may not be a good thing
I don't know

I can definitely see your point there. High school grades aren't exactly indicative of how a student will do at a university. Standardized tests, at least the majority of them, are so wrought with flaws though that I would hesitate using them for that purpose. In fact, I think most standardized tests are relied upon way too much.

Something you have to realize though, is that teachers are merely the messengers when it comes to grades. The student is the one who is actually in control of them. We simply enter them into a computer.

[RockAndRoll]

Something you have to realize though, is that teachers are merely the messengers when it comes to grades. The student is the one who is actually in control of them. We simply enter them into a computer.
No, that's definitely not true. Teachers definitely decide the marking scheme, the relative weights of assignments and who deserves which marks.

[uhhyeah]

No, that's definitely not true. Teachers definitely decide the marking scheme, the relative weights of assignments and who deserves which marks.

Thats just setting the structure of the class. They input grades based on what the student has accomplished. There's not exactly an agenda here. People ARE given marks they deserve, i.e., the marks they earn.

[RockAndRoll]

Thats just setting the structure of the class. They input grades based on what the student has accomplished. There's not exactly an agenda here. People ARE given marks they deserve, i.e., the marks they earn.
And who decides what deserves marks?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

And who decides what deserves marks?

persons and instituations trained for such a purpose.

[RockAndRoll]

persons and instituations trained for such a purpose.
Also known as the schoolboards, andminstrators and teachers? Oh yes, what's that last one again?

[Reaganista]

No, that's definitely not true. Teachers definitely decide the marking scheme, the relative weights of assignments and who deserves which marks.
students should control that part
even if we were to preserve grading systems the way they are

[uhhyeah]

Also known as the schoolboards, andminstrators and teachers? Oh yes, what's that last one again?

and....?

Someone trained for such purposes should be the ones carrying it out. I know, it's a crazy idea that teachers think that tests/homework etc. ought to be graded and count towards a final grade, but that's the way it is.

[RockAndRoll]

and....?
And that means you are wrong.


Someone trained for such purposes should be the ones carrying it out. I know, it's a crazy idea that teachers think that tests/homework etc. ought to be graded and count towards a final grade, but that's the way it is.

I'm pretty sure I never said anything which could reasonably be confused with "The people who decide our marks should have as little training and experience possible." Although a lot of teachers do suck at marking.

[PerpetualBurn]

External marking ftw.

[uhhyeah]

And that means you are wrong.




I'm pretty sure I never said anything which could reasonably be confused with "The people who decide our marks should have as little training and experience possible." Although a lot of teachers do suck at marking.

Oh ok. I think I just interpreted your statement as sarcasm. I read your statement as implying that teachers shouldn't be involved in determining what should or shouldn't deserve marks (assuming sarcasm was in your statement). Not being a smartass here, just telling you how I interpreted your statemtent.

[RockAndRoll]

Oh ok. I think I just interpreted your statement as sarcasm. I read your statement as implying that teachers shouldn't be involved in determining what should or shouldn't deserve marks (assuming sarcasm was in your statement). Not being a smartass here, just telling you how I interpreted your statemtent.

I was just saying that teachers do more than "simply enter them (marks) into a computer". Not that there aren't things I would change were it up to me.

[uhhyeah]

I was just saying that teachers do more than "simply enter them (marks) into a computer". Not that there aren't things I would change were it up to me.

Oh, well yeah of course. We're also responsible for ensuring that the students recieve a quality education thus enabling them to achieve high marks. Some do, some don't...that's just the nature of the game. We do evaluate essay's and other subjective tests of knowledge according to our own standards, not that that's a negative thing though. If a student arrives at a different interpretation of something through some solid analysis though, I'll give them credit based on the quality of their argument.

I teach a subject that is often highly interpretive. The thing that I strive for is to make sure students make valid interpretations based on credible and adequate evidence.

Trust me, there are things I would change about grading as well, but that's where limitations from the school board come in.

[RockAndRoll]

Oh, well yeah of course. We're also responsible for ensuring that the students recieve a quality education thus enabling them to achieve high marks. Some do, some don't...that's just the nature of the game. We do evaluate essay's and other subjective tests of knowledge according to our own standards, not that that's a negative thing though. If a student arrives at a different interpretation of something through some solid analysis though, I'll give them credit based on the quality of their argument.

I teach a subject that is often highly interpretive. The thing that I strive for is to make sure students make valid interpretations based on credible and adequate evidence.

Trust me, there are things I would change about grading as well, but that's where limitations from the school board come in.

What do you teach?

[uhhyeah]

What do you teach?

History ftw!

[RockAndRoll]

History ftw!
I thought so.

[Volumnius Flush]

Anyways I'll sum it up. I'm a teacher. I once had a student threaten to "kick my ****ing ***" for telling him to "quit throwing paper in class or else you will go to the principal's office."

That was a threat. You should report him. I didn't threaten anybody. He was out of line. I wasn't.

[Mr. Ron]

History ftw!

I'm going to college to teach history. :wave:

[uhhyeah]

I'm going to college to teach history. :wave:

Nice. How far along are you?

To VF: That quote was a response to Reaganista about kids being able to do/say whatever they like at school. It was not directed at you.

[Volumnius Flush]

Nice. How far along are you?

To VF: That quote was a response to Reaganista about kids being able to do/say whatever they like at school. It was not directed at you.

I realize that. My point still stands.

[DillingerEscp]

So I was in the cafeteria last Tuesday getting lunch. I bought a couple burgers. For three years now, no one minded me taking lunch food outside as long as I threw away my trash first (wrapper, tray, ketchup). Some students had been known to litter the campus. This was my first day back at school after a brief stint at another local high school. I had missed about a week and a half of school so I was making sure the rules hadn't been changed.

I approached one of the new principals and asked him if it was okay to take my food out. He said no. When I informed him of the rules predating the 2006 school year, he went ballistic saying, "Son, you aren't hearing me are you! I told you...!!" Anyway, I tuned out and said, "I didn't have to deal with this **** before," referring to his apparent attitude problem.

To make a long story short, I went to ISS for three days AND got a ticket. There wasn't even a report filed. The person who told the police was another assistant principal who overheard the principal I said it to when he was talking about it. One person heard it. He didn't think the police needed to know. I'm almost sure this is illegal.

Here's the situation:

What happened to free speech?

Say for instance you speak Swahili. Let's pretend the Swahili word for 'f---' is 'muffin'. Does this make muffin a bad word? Absolutely not. It would be illogical to say that a muffin could be both good and bad unless we're talking about two different muffins, which we're not. We're talking about the same muffin, the bilabial 'm', the way it extends through your pouted lips, the bilabial fricative 'f' which rolls from your teeth, topped off with a nasal 'n', an 'uh' and a short 'i', you get a tasty biscuit-roll hybrid, mixed with an insatiating fruit such as grape or berry.

'Muffin' is a tasty treat we can agree. There's nothing bad about it. One could argue a perverted muffin could be bad, but the word itself is inherently good.

If I had used the word 'muffin' to express my anxiety, would I have been censored? Probably not. Although it means entirely the same thing. Anyway, more later, I have to go to class.

youre republican, youre automatically right, because youre the best.

[Amit]

That was a threat. You should report him. I didn't threaten anybody. He was out of line. I wasn't.

no you were out of line why is this difficult to understand

[Reaganista]

**** you bitch he wasn't ****ing out of line
punk *** mother****ers drawing ****ing lines all over the ****ing place
**** they're just ****ing words can't you ****ers suck it up?

[bleep_bloop]

Schools tend to be bloated buearocracies. Also, one of the rare cases in which I agree with you. Much respect bro.
Also, why would you get a ticket for that? Damn po-lice. They can be dicks.

[Sunny Afternoon]

The severity of general obscenities has three main factors:

1. What you say
2. Who you say it to
3. The context in which you say it

If it's two teachers in the staff room, and one is talking about 'that s--thead that cut me off this morning on the freeway', obscenities might not be taken as seriously.

Though most of us might not take the idea of 'swear words' seriously or AS serious, remember that adults have been raised under traditional methods of child raising, in which swearing is socially UNACCEPTABLE, and doing so means swift punishment.

We think it's a stupid idea to get punished for swearing, because to us, swear words and/or other obscenities are just a means of further expression in our daily vocabulary.

But they think that it's a plague coming from the acccursed mouth of us devil youth, what with our rock and roll and motorcycles and the like.

Society is becoming slowly more tolerant, and things such as homosexuality and sexuality in general, swearing, spitting, fighting etc are becoming more socially acceptable. They see it as something worse than we do.




But it is really just a four letter word. So what makes it so bad? The suppression of the word gives it its evil means. S--t is the worst out of the feces-orientated obscenities. Synonyms like 'crap' and 'poo' are just frowned upon or overlooked entirely, because people are more used to them and they have not been used in contexts as bad. That, and over time, s--t and words like it have simply become so suppressed that it is socially unacceptable to say them in normal context, or any context at all for that matter.


deep breath

[Bub]

Its all pragmatics.
You said what you said cos you wanted it to have the effect that it had. He just reacted to it worse than you expected.

Sure he overreacted, but you were wrong before he was.

[bleep_bloop]

Its semantics. If everyone said doodledoodledoo instead of ****, then doodledoodledoo would carry with it the same meaing that **** carries.

[stevensonmat2]

If I got a ticket for cussing at school id rip it up in the cops face. Seriously if they dont like me using words like that at school ok give me detention but giving someone a ticket? That rediculous.

[Reaganista]

remember that adults have been raised under traditional methods of child raising, in which swearing is socially UNACCEPTABLE, and doing so means swift punishment.
what
how many 'adults' have you seen get punished for swearing

[EinzingerIsGod]

what
how many 'adults' have you seen get punished for swearing

Not many because most of them don't swear in those situations to begin with. They have more sense.

[Reaganista]

you think most adults don't swear in social situations?
things must be weird in boston

[EinzingerIsGod]

you think most adults don't swear in social situations?
things must be weird in boston

At work (the adult school if you will) no. Who's going to punish them for swearing in public? I agree that its just a word and its not a big deal, but when you're punished for swearing in school you don't really have a case.