Huntley found unconscious in prison cell

[2muchket!]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5314944.stm

This being his second attempt at taking his own life many people now are questioning why keep him alive if its his wish to die ??

It also beggers belief that a murderer is currently taking up precious NHS resources like a hospital bed and nurse & doctors time.

And anyway why should the effort be made to keep him alive hes been given 40 years so does it really matter when he does die ??

So I pose this question : should he be keept alive or should he be allowed to take his life. Is it any easy option and therefore should he kept alive to suffer for his crimes ???

[PerpetualBurn]

He should be made to serve his time. He doesn't get to duck out of serving his time.

And if he's serving 40 years, you'd expect him to be alive when he finishes his sentence and is released, so it does matter. It's not like he's not able to see it out.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

He'll be alive in 40 years time unless he kills himself.

It'll be the mob waiting outside the prison that'll kill him. ;)


No, he should be forced to live. He has forfeited the right to take his own life.

[Aaron]

He owes 40 years to those girls.

[Kronos]

I'd make sure he couldn't self-harm his way out of his situation and force him to watch video footage and pictures of those girls and what he did to them all day in solitary.

[coheneran]

I'd make sure he couldn't self-harm his way out of his situation and force him to watch video footage and pictures of those girls and what he did to them all day in solitary.

Isn't that cruel and unusual?

[Kronos]

We don't have that in our (unwritten) constitution. And if we did, I don't really care when it comes to people like him

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm fairly sure we have human rights in England.

[Kronos]

I don't think we have the phrase "cruel and unusual punishment" in our constitution like they have in the US.
I didn't mention anything about human rights

[ChodaBoy]

He should be made to suffer for what he did. Death is the best way out for him, and is no punishment.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I believe that the European court of human rights prevents cruel and unusual punishments.

[HaVIC5]

He has forfeited the right to take his own life.

When was that ever a right?

[Smokey D]

I don't think we have the phrase "cruel and unusual punishment" in our constitution like they have in the US.
I didn't mention anything about human rights

Nah, Britain's constrained by various instruments and legal documents that prevent the infliction of cruel and unusual punishment. It's also in the 1689 Bill of Rights.

[Kronos]

They were still inflicting "Peine Forte et Dur" on people long after 1688, so I wouldn't put too much trust in that

[Scuba_Steve]

They were still inflicting "Peine Forte et Dur" on people long after 1688, so I wouldn't put too much trust in that


you do realize they would recieve MUCH more critiscism for doing some like that now than they would back in the 1700s right?

[Smokey D]

You said cruel and unusual punishment was not in the British constitution, when in fact it was Britain that first coined the phrase.

The text of the Bill of Rights reads: And thereupon the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, pursuant to their respective letters and elections, being now assembled in a full and free representative of this nation, taking into their most serious consideration the best means for attaining the ends aforesaid, do in the first place (as their ancestors in like case have usually done) for the vindicating and asserting their ancient rights and liberties declare

...

That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted;

However, it's quite likely the British judiciary did not always obey the this Bill of Rights. least not until the last 150 years or so.

[Kronos]

I think it must be down to interpretation. What passed for normal in 18th century wouldn't do so today.
They were still burning women for petty treason up til the 1780s

[Smokey D]

Yes, I suspect death by burning was not considered particuarly uncommon in those days, and therefore 'cruel and unusual' might not have applied.

[PerpetualBurn]

This is some beautiful backtracking.

England doesn't forbid cruel and unusual punishment
Well...that has nothing to do with human rights [it does]
Well...I don't trust the 1600's
Erm...it must be dodgy interpretation...

Funnily enough, England does forbid such infringements on human rights as cruel and unusual punishment. It's kind of difficult to tell what point you're now trying to make.

[Scuba_Steve]

he's probably pointing out what kind of cruel and unusual punishment he would provide if he could.

[Kronos]

This is some beautiful backtracking.

England doesn't forbid cruel and unusual punishment
Well...that has nothing to do with human rights [it does]
Well...I don't trust the 1600's
Erm...it must be dodgy interpretation...

Funnily enough, England does forbid such infringements on human rights as cruel and unusual punishment. It's kind of difficult to tell what point you're now trying to make.

I'm not trying to make any point.
This all began when someone said cruel and unusual punishment. It has since developed into a discussion on that subject.
It was supposed to be reasonably lighthearted - not uber-serious.

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm not trying to make any point.

Why even post...

[Kronos]

It's supposed to be a discussion thread - not a PerpetualBurn scores points off everyone and feels better in himself thread.
We were discussing, and you're doing the latter

[coheneran]

It's supposed to be a discussion thread - not a PerpetualBurn scores points off everyone and feels better in himself thread.
We were discussing, and you're doing the latter

Lol, well pwnt.

[PerpetualBurn]

It is customary to have a point to contribute to the thread.

But your inability to do so does make me feel better about myself.

It's that feeling of self-worth that only comes from devaluing the intelligence of others, you know what I mean? No...I don't suppose you do.

[Smokey D]

Don't be hatin', y'all.

[PerpetualBurn]

Then back to topic...

Kronos supports cruel and unusual punishment and as such is a disgrace to my country.

[2muchket!]

I have a felling that this won't be his last attempt to commit suicide. But the fact that tax money is being paid to treat him, and the fact that the NHS is already underfunded and over schreached the fact thta huntley is taking up these resources is a further slap in the face to the country.

[PerpetualBurn]

Everyone is entitled to healthcare. We aren't savages.

[Kronos]

Then back to topic...

Kronos supports cruel and unusual punishment and as such is a disgrace to my country.
No I do not. I don't think making people face up to the enormity of what they've done is cruel.

[Smokey D]

Well, you could only do it to him if you did it to everyone.

But I suspect that breaches some treaty the UK is party to.

[PerpetualBurn]

I'd make sure he couldn't self-harm his way out of his situation and force him to watch video footage and pictures of those girls and what he did to them all day in solitary.

This is supporting cruel and unusual punishment.

There is absolutely no way that extended time in solitary confinement coupled with the proposition of intense psychological trauma is neither cruel nor unusual.

[Kronos]

It is customary to have a point to contribute to the thread.


What, like this one?


www.wildconspiracies.org/ridiculouswwiiifantasy

It seems to me that you actually contribute very little to the discussions on here, preferring to wait until you can pounce on someone else's statements or opinions with an aim to making them look silly.
This is, of course, a much easier thing to do.

[PerpetualBurn]

It seems to me like you support cruel and unusual punishment and now don't wish to defend your stance.

You cannot advocate such intense psychological trauma on a man who is on the brink of suicide as it is. Well, I suppose you can, but it would make you quite a disgusting human.

Ian Huntley deserves every day that he'll be locked up for. However, it is quite clear that he is mentally unstable, perhaps as a result of reflection on what he has done, perhaps due to the torment and anguish inflicted upon him by his fellow inmates. You advocate torturing him mentally. This is a stance that is simply disgraceful, and all I have done is highlight this.

If you would like to offer your rebuttal, please go ahead, but do not try and accuse me of not contributing to discussions when I am clearly a catalyst in all those in which I choose to offer my opinion.

After all, did you not say:


I'm not trying to make any point.

You're the one that's failing to contribute if you have no point to what you say.

[Kronos]

OK, if you think that what I'd like to do with him is cruel and unusual punishment then so be it.
I, personally don't care too much about people like him, and he deserves no sympathy as far as I'm concerned.
If that makes me a disgusting human in your eyes - I'll cope.
The crime he committed comes as close to unforgiveable as it's possible to get. Unlike you, with your bleeding heart liberalism and care for the perpetrator of that heinous act, I care more for, and sympathise with, the victims and families.
They are the people who deserve it.

[PerpetualBurn]

So you're actually telling me that you think the government should torture prisoners?

And you're ignoring the fact that the man is already suicidal. To say that I'm being to soft is so retarded it doesn't bear thinking about.

[Kronos]

And you continue to ignore the fact that I don't care. Simple as that. Why go on about it?

I don't give a monkey's toss what that turd may or may not be going through. Period.
And as for being soft - if the cap fits....

[PerpetualBurn]

So you think that all prisoners should be driven to suicide?

[coheneran]

Are you guys still going at it?

PB, he said something stupid as a joke and thought he's going to get a likewise response. You didn't find it funny (neither did I), maybe because you take this subject more seriously and find it harder to joke about, I don't know, and you made it clear the joke was stupid. You went too far on the attack forced Kron to go on the defensive, and now he's defending some silly idea that I'm willing to bet he doesn't believe in. Now the radical position he's got himself into is putting you even further on the offence, and pushes him to further extremes. Will this bloody cycle ever end?:upset:

[PerpetualBurn]

Well eventually I'll have completely discredited him as a contributer in this forum, so yes, it will end.

[Kronos]

Well eventually I'll have completely discredited him as a contributer in this forum, so yes, it will end.
Good luck. I'm not going anywhere.

[PerpetualBurn]

Hey, respond to the post directed at you.

[Kronos]

Why, because you said so?

[PerpetualBurn]

Because that's how a forum works.

You are apparently against human rights, which is something that is rarely respected. And of course if you are anti-human rights you really don't have much grounds to punish Ian Huntley at all.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

OK, if you think that what I'd like to do with him is cruel and unusual punishment then so be it.
I, personally don't care too much about people like him, and he deserves no sympathy as far as I'm concerned.
If that makes me a disgusting human in your eyes - I'll cope.
The crime he committed comes as close to unforgiveable as it's possible to get. Unlike you, with your bleeding heart liberalism and care for the perpetrator of that heinous act, I care more for, and sympathise with, the victims and families.
They are the people who deserve it.

Dude you're one sick puppy if you would want the man who murdered your daughter to be tortured for what he did

If you think something like that is ok you're no better than he is

[Kronos]

Erm, that's a very flawed argument.

I'm sure what I suggested is but small beer compared to what the girls' fathers would actually do to him, given the chance.

[PerpetualBurn]

Yes, but you're against human rights, so why shouldn't Huntley kill little girls?

[Reaganista]

I think you should let him kill himself.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Erm, that's a very flawed argument.

I'm sure what I suggested is but small beer compared to what the girls' fathers would actually do to him, given the chance.

1. You'd be surprised at how forgiving people can be

2. Irrelevant, you're still sick

[Kronos]

Yes, but you're against human rights, so why shouldn't Huntley kill little girls?

You know full well those examples are nowhere near equivalent.

Some crimes put people outside the rights that others enjoy.



Irrelevant, you're still sick

No I'm not, I'm quite sane - I just have a different opinion on this matter to you.

[drewhet]

wouldn't you guys consider 40 years in a jail cruel and unusual punishment? i say if he weants to die then let him. theres always a chance that he when gets out he will kill more people

[Kronos]

The re-offence rate among his type of criminal is high. He might well do so.

[coheneran]

Some crimes put people outside the rights that others enjoy.

Actually, he's got a point on you. A right is something everyone has. If you take someone's right away, it was never a right, it was a privilege.

[ringworm]

I say leave him in there if the inmates treat him like this. He deserves it.
In the same month Huntley was attacked with boiling water by a fellow inmate at Wakefield Prison, which houses some of the UK's most dangerous criminals, including Charles Bronson, dubbed Britain's most violent prisoner.

[thedeadwalk!]

theres always a chance that he when gets out he will kill more people
That's because prison isn't rehabilitation.

[LittlePound]

i think he should serve his time. We shouldn't allow him to kill himself. He needs to buck up and accept the consequences for what he has done.

[Jude]

wtf is with this love of suffering by everyone in this thread?

What can possibly become better by making someone suffer more?

[LittlePound]

i don't say it so he can suffer more. I say it becuase people should accept the consequences of their actions. He knew that if he got caught there would be repercussions for his actions. He knew he was breaking the law. Now he needs to suck it up and take his punishment.

[Light__Fantastic]

But he will be punished when he gets to the pearly gates :)

[coheneran]

Oh pwned. So pwned.

[LittlePound]

But he will be punished when he gets to the pearly gates :)
i cannot be the judge of that. He will be judged accordingly to his decisions in life. I can only hope that a man such as that will repent and accept the forgiveness Jesus offers.

[thedeadwalk!]

Prisoners see to it that child murderers get their comeupance.

[666Ozzfan]

I say they should keep him in prison, and make it harder to commit suicide. Prison is worse than death. Actually, I believe life is worse than death

[MegaPhony]

Life is worse than death
Good call man! I forgot you've experienced death already..
:rolleyes:

[Reaganista]

nothing is worse than death.

[666Ozzfan]

nothing is worse than death.

How so? Death is the end of suffering. Death is the freeing of your soul. Death is re-living the endless one-ness with the creator. That's what I believe anyway. (not saying your view is wrong, or that mine is right, just justifying my views ;) )

[loathed]

err, death is burning in hell if you commit suicide...just my opinion

[666Ozzfan]

err, death is burning in hell if you commit suicide...just my opinion

Not in mine :p I don't see the point in the existence of hell, and doesn't make sense to me, so therefore I do not belive it exists:thumb:

But lets leave this for another thread, like the christianity thread or something

[Jude]

Prisoners see to it that child murderers get their comeupance.
Which accomplishes nothing.

If my tax dollars are going to be paying to keep someone alive in prison for decades I want some tangible good to be coming from this other than "we get to feel good about the fact that we're making someone's life miserable."

[ringworm]

Prisoners see to it that child murderers get their comeupance.
Yes they do thank goodness
In the same month Huntley was attacked with boiling water by a fellow inmate at Wakefield Prison, which houses some of the UK's most dangerous criminals, including Charles Bronson, dubbed Britain's most violent prisoner.

[thedeadwalk!]

If my tax dollars are going to be paying to keep someone alive in prison for decades I want some tangible good to be coming from this other than "we get to feel good about the fact that we're making someone's life miserable."
Me, too. I'd like the implementation of reeducation programs to cut down on repeat offenders; job skills training, or other equivalents, that prepare felons for when they're released, and other good stuff like that.

All I'm saying is, currently, there's a strong culture in place among prisoners that has its own values. And, until we stop using prison as a place of punishment and start rehabilitating prisoners, we don't need the state to institute torture for offenses against children and churches, and one more I think but I can't remember.

[Reaganista]

How so? Death is the end of suffering. Death is the freeing of your soul. Death is re-living the endless one-ness with the creator. That's what I believe anyway. (not saying your view is wrong, or that mine is right, just justifying my views
death is not existing anymore

If my tax dollars are going to be paying to keep someone alive in prison for decades I want some tangible good to be coming from this other than "we get to feel good about the fact that we're making someone's life miserable."
let's put em to work

[thedeadwalk!]

Chain gangs still exist in the South, prisoners do make license plates, and some companies employ prisoners to answer phones for customer service. All of this for little or no pay, of course.

[Reaganista]

the prisoners are paying their debt to society

[thedeadwalk!]

They're sentenced to time served not labor served.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Chain gangs still exist in the South, prisoners do make license plates, and some companies employ prisoners to answer phones for customer service. All of this for little or no pay, of course.

Think we're talkin' bout the UK right at this moment

[Reaganista]

They're sentenced to time served not labor served.
which is why it doesn't matter if they work fast or slow
unless they want parole or something

[Jude]

let's put em to work
Better but doesn't really deal with my problem. Fact remains people are just being stuffed away because we feel that making them suffer somehow lessens the badness of the original crime.

[coheneran]

which is why it doesn't matter if they work fast or slow
unless they want parole or something

If they're doing telesales, that's hardly paying a debt to society (plus, they'd get outsourced to Indian prisoners so quickly:p). Why not something constructive?

[2muchket!]

Prisoners see to it that child murderers get their comeupance.

Huntley is in segregation, for his own protection. If he was in general population he'd be dead by now.

[thedeadwalk!]

Think we're talkin' bout the UK right at this moment
Yeah, my bad. Does the UK do anything similar with their prisoners?

which is why it doesn't matter if they work fast or slow
unless they want parole or something
It also creates a cheap labor pool with little interest in getting them out of it.

Huntley is in segregation, for his own protection. If he was in general population he'd be dead by now.
My point was against state sanctioned cruel and unusual punishment.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Yeah, my bad. Does the UK do anything similar with their prisoners?

No

they're treated fairly well but britan isn't exactly known for it's hardline conservative stances

[Light__Fantastic]

Prisoners see to it that child murderers get their comeupance.
Yes they do thank goodness
We should let prisoners hand out justice because they are obviously good at making judgement calls.

[thedeadwalk!]

For the second time: My point was against state sanctioned cruel and unusual punishment.

I'm not condoning the fact that felons enforce their own violent culture on other prisoners.

[AA-12]

He should be made to serve his time. He doesn't get to duck out of serving his time.

Yep.

[Reaganista]

It also creates a cheap labor pool with little interest in getting them out of it.

yeah there's a lot of positives
but I thought you were against it

[thedeadwalk!]

lol. Oh, you.

[Smokey D]

death is not existing anymore

You can't suffer if you don't exist.

[Reaganista]

I get your point and you're right that the only thing that is ever worse than death is a more painful and drawn out death.

unless you're saying that pain that will eventually go away is worse than death
in which case you'd be an asshat