applying double bass to jazz drumming

[ThatOneDrummer]

hey i read somewhere that louis bellson basically invented double bass drumming, and im curious to know, as a jazz drummer, how did louis use his double bass setup? did he have tow bass drums that were tuned differently, using different drums for different sounds, or did he use the double bass setup the way many drummers do today, by playing rolls with the feet?

[poppinfresh]

thats not true

[We_Love_Lime]

It is true.
I think he asked Gretsch to make it for him (First double bass) But I don't know if he was like a great double bass player.
I know he used double bass..and if you check Gretsch's site, it shows the details about it.

I know Bill Cobham uses some double bass in some of his work.

[poppinfresh]

hey asswhore, right from the double bass encyclopedia. If you dont believe me ill get on the plane right now and show you

page 72 "Ray McKinley

In 1940 Ray Mckinley, who at the time was playing with the Will Bradley Orchestra, asses a second slingerland 12 by 24 bass drum to his standard kit. While being one of the first to use two bass drums, McKinely abandoned the idea when he found that playing them in constant 8th notes was not very musically satisfying.

[We_Love_Lime]

http://www.gretschdrums.com/?fa=masters&id=213

We didn't need to involve name calling.
Jerk.

I don't know anything about the "origins" of double bass.. But I know that site, and I'm going to post it, and you can take it and analyze it anyway you wish.

[poppinfresh]

im sorry but you tried to make it osund like i was wrong. I thought that you were here long enough to know.

[We_Love_Lime]

Know what..?
Are you saying you're right?

I don't mind if your right..
I was just putting in what I knew.

[poppinfresh]

no you said "it is true" a direct opposing statement to mine. You said exactly the opposite of what i said, implying that i was wrong.

[We_Love_Lime]

Oh...

okay...

[some jive turkey]

so far this thread is a perfect example of how internet discussion forums can instantly trigger arguements from otherwise-friendly discussions.

I think the main issue is that tone of voice is ambiguious when you're just reading text on a screen, opposed to conversation.


__________________________________________________ _______

anyway, I have heard that about Belson before, somehow I imagine him playing them more melodically as high and low, than pulling out blazing 32nd notes.

Historically , jazz drumming doesn't usually have much double bass, because there's so much hi-hat playing with the feet. But there's always an exeception to every "rule".


EDIT: check out Dennis Chambers on John McLauglhlins, "the heart of things" album. It's wicked.

[mattsmith]

Actually you are both right.

Louie Bellson is officially credited to have invented the double bass drum when he envisioned it for a high school art project in 1939, at age 15. His detailed sketch earned him an 'A'. He still has the picture. But he recieved an official patent for the double bass setup in 1941. For that reason Ray McKinley was required to recieve permission from Bellson to construct his own version of the double bass after his release from the service in 1945, although he was playing his own prototype design as early as 1940.

As a sidebar, Buddy Rich, fresh from military release himself grew tired of double bass drum discussion and decided to taunt the concept by performing a very famous drum solo playing ONLY two bass drums (nothing else). The film was featured on the Movietone News in 1946, and is one of the hardest pieces of Rich memoribilia to obtain.

The reason Bellson is often credited AFTER McKinley is due to which artist became VERY popular first. As you mention, McKinley was already a first rank big band superstar in the late 1930s with the Bradley band, the first white big band to implement the boogie woogie style (Basie was the first important band). Although Bellson actually invented the double bass several months before McKinley, he was at that time only another very talented kid drummer. Therefore when McKinley popularized the double bass, many incorrectly believed he had invented it. But again, McKinley WAS the first major star to perform with it.

Ginger Baker supposedly consulted with Bellson regarding his own setup. Bellson considered Baker a top rank talent and was more than happy to help a member of the community. The Baker derivative (with contemporary modifications) is essentially the one enjoyed today, and even Bellson has adapted his kit to somewhat match the Baker prototype.

Hope this clears it up. Again, both of you were correct, hence the confusion.

My source is my father, who is a jazz historian, and a horn player who has played with both men, Bellson especially. I'm not telling this to drop names as much as to validate my statements. If further evidence is required, there are audio concert downloads of Bellson playing with my father's jazz ensembles at thsmith.com.

Just thought I would contribute something here other than my periodic rants regarding other matters.

[isp_of_doom]

anyway, I have heard that about Belson before, somehow I imagine him playing them more melodically as high and low, than pulling out blazing 32nd notes.

actually, if you see a transcription of his solo (that I believe I read was the first instance of double bass drumming, though I hadn't heard of Ray McKinley before) all Bellsons solo was a slightly more developed roll between the hands and feet... and no, not blazing 32nd notes, 16th's at 120.

[isp_of_doom]

What a fantastic 11th post. Anything else you can enlighten us on? Has your Dad written a book by any chance...

[mattsmith]

What a fantastic 11th post. Anything else you can enlighten us on? Has your Dad written a book by any chance...

Dad has contributed to a number of texts. Many of his writings are located in the articles section of his website. Thanks for your interest.

[some jive turkey]

What a fantastic 11th post. Anything else you can enlighten us on? ...

^no kidding

you deserve to be repped for that.

[ofDooM]

genius'...

[Electric Requiem]

Hes mostly posted in the WFD threads. Hes something of a fast drummer himself...

[mattsmith]

Hes mostly posted in the WFD threads.
I suppose that's one way of putting it.

[Josiah]

I coulda swore Tony busted out 2 kicks at some point.. Ray McKinley used double bass earlier too. Louie just really popularized it.

I've seen very very old pictures with drummers occasionlly using 2 bass. 2nd line New orleans bands also had multiple bass's on occasion.


Now that I think of it, I supose the 'double bass' has been used for long before the drumset people started doing. I'm thinking of Samba bands in Central/South America. Using the Sordo (spell?) lagebass drum that is hit 2 different ways to produce 2 different tones, used intermixed in the music.

Then I think further back, into classical era with classical percussionist usign several Timpani, this too me also seems very much like double bass, as they are the lowest sounding drums, and several are being used.

As to Louie patenting the idea of using 2 bass drums in a drumset, well now that just sounds like historic hog wash. According to US Patent laws, that's not a patentable thing. One can not patent how they arrange a drumset. Only the production of product can be patented in regaurds to musical instruments, never the playing or methodology of how they are played.

[We_Love_Lime]

Yeah but I think we're talking about set Josiah.

The Second Line stuff your talking about is most probably a marching band, which they had a lot of, for funerals, and parties and stuff in New Orleans, often having more than one bass, snare etc (Courtesy of Stanton Moores take it to the street)

And the same with Samba and Classical music, but I think we were talking about the set. Without a doubt I think people were aware that African/Samba/Latin/Middle East uses more than one bass drum.

[Josiah]

Well yes, of course, but almost everything we play has developed out of those percussionive aspects of drumming. So it's important to look at the history in order to better understand the progression of the instrument.

Point is, nobody invented double bass, it was simply a natural progression that came from numerous other percussion players using simular ideas.


For the TS. I don't believe Louie was tuning them different or playing around with anything like the complex stuff we see some players doing now (and unforunately some not doing).

All of the stuff I've heard Louie use it in were more straight patterns or smaller rolls. Gotta love those big clown nose beaters too! HAhaha

[mattsmith]

I coulda swore Tony busted out 2 kicks at some point.. Ray McKinley used double bass earlier too. Louie just really popularized it.

I've seen very very old pictures with drummers occasionlly using 2 bass. 2nd line New orleans bands also had multiple bass's on occasion.


Now that I think of it, I supose the 'double bass' has been used for long before the drumset people started doing. I'm thinking of Samba bands in Central/South America. Using the Sordo (spell?) lagebass drum that is hit 2 different ways to produce 2 different tones, used intermixed in the music.

Then I think further back, into classical era with classical percussionist usign several Timpani, this too me also seems very much like double bass, as they are the lowest sounding drums, and several are being used.

As to Louie patenting the idea of using 2 bass drums in a drumset, well now that just sounds like historic hog wash. According to US Patent laws, that's not a patentable thing. One can not patent how they arrange a drumset. Only the production of product can be patented in regaurds to musical instruments, never the playing or methodology of how they are played.

The New Orleans based photograph memories of this poster are suspect since second line bands as he calls them are not stationary ensembles, but marching units. I believe the poster is using incorrect terminolgies to make his point. But I will be more than happy to illuminate.

What is sometimes incorrectly dubbed a second line ensemble, is really a group with two distinct componnents, creating a New Orleans African American funeral band. The first componnent Main Line is the main section or the members of the actual club, that has the permit to parade. The parades consist of a larger element of fans and the curious following that accompanies the members .

Those fans, admirers and curious are the second line or part two of this planned street parade. These parades have come to be called and known by this fact, hence the term second line. But to call said parade ensemble a second line band, would be like calling the wheels of a Corvette a sports car.

With that clarification, one would seriously dispute and/or call into question the singular hand carrying of a double bass drum apparatus for parades sometimes lasting a mile or more. Therefore, I seriously doubt said poster saw a picture of this kind of ensemble employing such a cumbersome, impractical device.

Now if the poster is trying to equate two or more separate bass drums carried by two or more people as a double bass apparatus, that would be the equivalent of calling a drumline a double bass. Since I do not believe he meant this, one can only conclude that he was mistaken as to what constituted a second line band...a point that has now been verfiably qualified.

What the above poster is probably referring to are the bass drums viewed in smaller ensembles, based on ragging outdoor marching ensembles that were appropriate for the new wave of African American dances popularized in the 1890s, primarily by the African American trumpeter Buddy Bolden and his Creole rival John Robaceiaux.

In the earlier days of this movement, yes sometimes two or more bass drums were lined up side by side in early drumline style, but due to their mutual exclusivity, shared no relationship with the double bass apparatus discussed here.

It did not take long for bandleaders to judge the nature of this setup impractical. This was especially true when extreme volume drew complaints from patrons as the groups moved indoors. Additionally, bandleaders grew tired of hiring as many as five drummers when indoor conditions deemed only one essential to the group.

Robaceiaux, in a cost cutting move was one of the first to encourage drum set construction (or what the above poster considers arrangement). He enlisted his most dependable drummer Dee Dee Chandler to remedy the problem around 1895. As time went on, more groups implemeted the new drum set design, and the dispirate multiple bass drums of the past gradually dissapeared.

The initial design based on the Bellson art project was in fact patented. The comments in post 11 are not based on conjecture. Moreover, the above poster's logic of design patents and their mutual exclusivity from the manufacturing componnent is inherently flawed, since design and subsequent reproduction are always tied together, or a patent would not be necessary in the first place, since patents are essentially created to protect against unauthorized production.

Everything I have stated is verifiably correct and beyond reproach.

Those who recognize my posts are aware that said poster has demonstrated an all consuming obsession with every comment I have ever uttered on this forum, and is merely attempting to bring me into some fruitless chest puffing argument that will not occur today. Those wishing to know actual facts are free to accept or dismiss, in the same manner that I am free to dispense information as I choose.

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Everything I have stated is verifiably correct and beyond reproach.hahah, nice reply man.

I gotta use that line more. ;)

[GooseFilms.net]

Then I think further back, into classical era with classical percussionist usign several Timpani, this too me also seems very much like double bass, as they are the lowest sounding drums, and several are being used.
But the point of having multiple timpani is to have multiple pitches, whereas the point of having two bass drums is for increased bass drum speed and more technical capabilities brought on by using 2 feet rather than 1. You have 2 timpani for melodic purposes, whereas you have 2 bass drums for rhythmic purposes.

[ThatOneDrummer]

But the point of having multiple timpani is to have multiple pitches, whereas the point of having two bass drums is for increased bass drum speed and more technical capabilities brought on by using 2 feet rather than 1. You have 2 timpani for melodic purposes, whereas you have 2 bass drums for rhythmic purposes.
not necessarily...some drummers like stanton moore and will calhoun have two bass drums but each is tuned differently to provide different sounds
the whole point of this thread though was to find out how bellson used his double bass setup and i still dont really get it...i heard solo patterns between the hands and feet but thats pretty much the most useful thing ive read...but apprently he didnt use straight 8th-16th-32nd note rolls between right and left foot like many metal drummers do today correct?

[GooseFilms.net]

check drummerworld for some of his videos. his approach is pretty straight-forward

[mattsmith]

the whole point of this thread though was to find out how bellson used his double bass setup and i still dont really get it
A decent example of Bellson's application of double bass can be heard here. This 1989 recording was of a 66 year old Louie Bellson still very strong for his age. He is playing with a big band my dad used to lead called Unifour. Back then guys like Louie would contact dad and use his band on tours when they didn't want to put together big bands of their own, outside of their normal base of operations.

The sound quality is not the greatest which makes me think this was a homemade recording or something taken off a radio show. I know the music. It is part of the Eastside Suite written by Louie himself and I know that dad's band was one of the first to play it or were the first. Some of the music itself sounds dated, especially the little rock section where Louie cops an early sixties feel. But still Louie drives the band like crazy. Yeah his solo ideas are probably not as tight as they were 20 years before, but he lays down a wonderful groove, especially during the tenor sax solo.

Personally, I have never found him to be all that driven to forward the progress of double bass playing. But he was the pioneer of the genre, and has voiced nothing but approval for its ongoing development, although he has said that (in his opinion) the double bass is currently over done at the expense of proper hand development.

http://www.thsmith.com/music/bigbands/04eastside.mp3

[Seafroggys]

although he has said that (in his opinion) the double bass is currently over done at the expense of proper hand development.


ain't that the truth!

[!aaa!]

Akira Jimbo is (arguably) a jazz/fusion drummer who uses double pedals whilst playing left foot clave and doing some lethal hi-hat work. He is a legend.

But if you're talking strictly about two bass drums...

Ginger Baker (Cream, Blind Faith) said in Rhythm magazine that he has always considered himself a jazz musician. He uses two bass drums with one smaller than the other and almost laid down blast beats in live versions of Toad.

[rohbit]

A decent example of Bellson's application of double bass can be heard here. This 1989 recording was of a 66 year old Louie Bellson still very strong for his age. He is playing with a big band my dad used to lead called Unifour. Back then guys like Louie would contact dad and use his band on tours when they didn't want to put together big bands of their own, outside of their normal base of operations.

The sound quality is not the greatest which makes me think this was a homemade recording or something taken off a radio show. I know the music. It is part of the Eastside Suite written by Louie himself and I know that dad's band was one of the first to play it or were the first. Some of the music itself sounds dated, especially the little rock section where Louie cops an early sixties feel. But still Louie drives the band like crazy. Yeah his solo ideas are probably not as tight as they were 20 years before, but he lays down a wonderful groove, especially during the tenor sax solo.

Personally, I have never found him to be all that driven to forward the progress of double bass playing. But he was the pioneer of the genre, and has voiced nothing but approval for its ongoing development, although he has said that (in his opinion) the double bass is currently over done at the expense of proper hand development.

http://www.thsmith.com/music/bigbands/04eastside.mp3

Cool! Media!

Thanks for the insight and the media there, Matt. It's always nice to hear something; descriptions can only go so far.

Also, it's nice to see you post in threads other than those regarding WFD.

[mattsmith]

Also, it's nice to see you post in threads other than those regarding WFD.

It was happenstance actually. We had just heard something about Louie, so I googled his name to see if there was anything new, and this thread popped up immediately. His health has declined due to the tragic onset of Parkinson's, and an errant driver struck him while crossing the street back in 2002. Playing wise, he's lost alot because of this, but there are those times when for a few moments, he comes all the way back playing wise, and can still wipe you out.

I just saw the thread, laid down what I already knew, and was pleasantly surprised with the immediate replies... although the one attempt at discredit without the presence of facts was not unexpected, and remains one poster's ongoing fruitless obsession. However, lately i've been just too busy to get involved.

[Josiah]

I just saw the thread, laid down what I already knew, and was pleasantly surprised with the immediate replies... although the one attempt at discredit without the presence of facts was not unexpected, and remains one poster's ongoing fruitless obsession. However, lately i've been just too busy to get involved.

...says the kid who types page long replies in order to try and discredit other people. Not to mention, that comment alone. Talk about hypocrit!


Between you and your mom, your dad's pole must get a ton of action.


Besides that, what's something I said that wasn't factual? Considering most of what I said was cut 'n paste out of an encylopedia.

[Seafroggys]

Between your sister and your mom, Seafroggys's pole must get a ton of action.


Fixed

[psychedelic_liam]

i dont like doube basses

[ThatOneDrummer]

i dont like doube basses
thanks for the input but this isnt the discussion for that:smash:

[psychedelic_liam]

heh but i think if you can play toe & heel your doing fine, because it takes more talent than a double bass, but thats just me and my drum teacher. meh!

[Josiah]

heh but i think if you can play toe & heel your doing fine, because it takes more talent than a double bass, but thats just me and my drum teacher. meh!

First off, that has nothing to do with Talent. If you learned it, it was a learned skill.


Second off, I can play heel toe using both feet. What now?


I use heel/toe and a variety of other methods for gaining a large array of sounds form my hi-hat w/ foot. This also makes for a very easy transition to double bass.

[ThatOneDrummer]

First off, that has nothing to do with Talent. If you learned it, it was a learned skill.


Second off, I can play heel toe using both feet. What now?


I use heel/toe and a variety of other methods for gaining a large array of sounds form my hi-hat w/ foot. This also makes for a very easy transition to double bass.
^^quoted for truth
playing heel toe with both feet can make for all kinds of amazing patterns, and some really cool double bass stuff too
what other methods do you use josiah? you mentioned it in the above post but i dont know many other bass drum techniques other than heel-toe, heel up, and heel down

[The Feeding]

double bass + jass = not good

I thought the point of jazz was to be light, lots of cymbals, keep the music flowing, i know in jazz band competitions i would be docked for the overuse of my single pedal (i play metal and use a lot of double bass, 2 feet stuff) One judge said he felt like he was being pounded to death!!!

[Sick-O]

Hey screw you guys!! I invented double bass drumming. :D


/THREAD.

Don't believe me? heres the proof right here: http://piv.pivpiv.dk