Elitists.

[DannySmith]

Hi.

I’ve always thought of elitists as people who generally hate what everybody else likes, think anyone that doesn’t take in their views are idiots, or ‘noobs’ if they don’t already think the same way.

Although elitists have different views, they just choose not to conflict because they both agree on the same principle. That older or un-heard of music is by far better than anything else.

For instance a Children of Bodom lover will still respect the views of a Pink Floyd lover. However both will hate anything in the charts, no matter how talented it is.

This isn’t meant to be a heated thread. I just really want to learn these different views. Because no elitist on this planet has made sense to me yet.

Just write your views on why your music is better than other peoples music. And the first pranny thinking about being offensive because someone elses views differ to theirs can just p*ss off.

This is a study of elitists. Not an arguement.

[Steerpike]

Actually, you are going to learn very soon that elitists latch onto anything, not just older music.

And civil discussion with them is impossible because going into it they already believe you're inferior to them.

[La Revolucion]

Everyone who listenes to music is elitist to some degree. If you like indie a lot and you think it's better than rap, of course you will think to yourself or tell others that rap is bad and indie is cool.

[DannySmith]

Actually, you are going to learn very soon that elitists latch onto anything, not just older music.
I usually find it's all based on hearsay. The in thing will be greenday, but someone else will then say they suck and that another band is better. It gives off a shock effect to people, which people are impressed by and follow.

It's the whole fashion of being different. But elitists haven't got the ability to think outside of the box.

And civil discussion with them is impossible because going into it they already believe you're inferior to them.
True.. but they can think that if they like. I'm not going to try and prove them wrong. It's their own funeral.

Everyone who listenes to music is elitist to some degree. If you like indie a lot and you think it's better than rap, of course you will think to yourself or tell others that rap is bad and indie is cool.
True but I think if you are a true musician you will accept that it's just different.

There's a huge amount I don't really like, but I'll respect it. I think elitists say everything sucks apart from what they like. It's all a big fashion to them to start with.

If I'm an elitist atall, it's against elitists.

[Trigger_003]

I generally can't find anywhere near as much respect for those who say their music is the best, no question, and all other types suck. One example being those types of metal/shred guitarists who can't stand listening to classical because it's "old, slow and boring". They obviously haven't given the genre a chance, and seems like they won't in the near future.
(some guys in my music class said they can't stand classical, but when some chick started shredding it up on the piano with some Chopin or something, they all went crazy over it... but they can't stand classical...?)
It's not really something I worry about too much though. I can change some people's minds, but it's always going to occur whether I complain about it or not, so why bother getting frustrated about it?

I never wish to say that they HAVE to like every type of music, but at least accept that others have different tastes in music too. If everyone liked the same music we probably wouldn't get the kind of diversity we're seeing today.

I don't think you can define elitists to groups that attempt to have an original taste in music, because heaps of people will ONLY listen to the stuff on the top 40 charts, and that's not exactly thought of as being unique.

It's probably more an expression of their view than a popularity stunt. In some cases it holds true, but I can't really see people going around saying "I hate pop, punk, rock, etc. etc." becoming too popular within the general public because of that.

I wouldn't say they aren't able to think outside of the box either.
For instance, if you asked around, a lot of people in my music class last year could have well been considered elitists to their own tastes, yet they were all amazed with my flamenco, world fusion, metal, and a whole heap of other stuff I played.
Some have a massive range of tastes... you'll find a lot of people out there that just can't stand that ONE type of music, like maybe opera, or rap, but they are completely open to pretty much every other genre they ever hear of. Do you consider them to be elitists?

[the_only_singer]

I was once called an elitist because I can't stand country and emo (though there are a couple screamo bands I can bare). And I totally am open to everything else but I have heard enough country and emo in my life to know it drives me crazy. However, I don't give people too much crap about liking it (except some close friends just because I know it drives them crazy).

But honestly, I couldn't believe I was called an elitist. I listen to mostly rock/metal but I will listen to hiphop, techno, classical, opera, progressive, soft rock, etc etc...

[Joseph India]

I define them as people who only listen to certain artists/genre, and they believe that those artists are truely great from an objective point of view. It is of course impossible for an artist or genre to be objectively great because art is subjective.
Here's why people do this: it makes them feel very special. They feel like it's possible to listen to the "wrong" music, so they develop a perception that their music is objectively great.
As an artist I was starting to become an elitist. I was worrying about pleasing elitists within a genre and didn't care about what normal people thought about my music. I recently realized how stupid that is, so now I just do what I want without worry.
There are 2 kinds of music, stuff you like and stuff you don't.

[fuzzyhair]

It's all a big pattern:

W00t! Tool rocks!

No way Tool sucks, Trivium is better!

(The next week)
W00t! Trivium rocks!

No way Trivium sucks, Job For A Cowboy is better!
The band names were a bad example, but you get the idea.

[Moseph]

It's all a big pattern:


The band names were a bad example, but you get the idea.

I wouldn't say that, necessarily. I have found that the Tool fans I've met are unbearably elitist. Which is ironic, since most people I know don't really like Tool.

[FRUGiHOYi]

I feel like some bands are just superior to others, and it's like fact. I guess it's not really fact though, I mean how do you measure a band being better than another? But for example, a band like Opeth, I feel the music is genius; and you just can't say that Fallout Boy is better; it just doesn't even sound right to say. True, the music is totally different and it's geared towards different types of people, so I can understand if someone tells me that they enjoy Fallout Boy more than Opeth because that's just the kind of music they like and it makes them feel the way they want to feel. But if someone tells me that Fallout Boy is BETTER than Opeth, I can't help it but feel that the person is an absolute idiot. So does that make me an elitist? I can accept someone liking Fallout Boy more than Opeth, but I just can't accept it if they say FOB is BETTER.

Maybe Opeth and FOB aren't the best examples because I love one of them and hate the other. So let's take Moonsorrow and Blink 182, which you could probably say I like them about the same. But even though I like them the same, I know that Moonsorrow is vastly superior, if that makes any sense. And I'm not just talking about them being better at their instruments, I mean there is so much more thought put into the music and it's so much deeper that I just can't see how anyone who truly loves music could not respect it, even if they don't really like it. But I can understand someone who doesn't respect Blink 182.

I went off into a kind of tangent. I don't really know what the point of this was anymore. I guess I want to know if I am an elitist because I can't help but feel that it is fact that certain bands are better than others.

[FRUGiHOYi]

I feel like some bands are just superior to others, and it's like fact. I guess it's not really fact though, I mean how do you measure a band being better than another? But for example, a band like Opeth, I feel the music is genius; and you just can't say that Fallout Boy is better; it just doesn't even sound right to say. True, the music is totally different and it's geared towards different types of people, so I can understand if someone tells me that they enjoy Fallout Boy more than Opeth because that's just the kind of music they like and it makes them feel the way they want to feel. But if someone tells me that Fallout Boy is BETTER than Opeth, I can't help it but feel that the person is an absolute idiot. So does that make me an elitist? I can accept someone liking Fallout Boy more than Opeth, but I just can't accept it if they say FOB is BETTER.

Maybe Opeth and FOB isn't the best example. But even among two bands I enjoy listening to the same... sometimes I can still say band A is better than band B even though I enjoy listening to them the same.

[moogoogaipan]

I think you guys have a skewed definition of elitist.

An elitist is someone who considers there lifestyle and way of thinking as being better. (I know you are thinking... wtf... that's what we're talking about)

But here's what I'm talking about.
Elitists are people who think they are "Elite"... that means the best of the best.
And educated lawyer can be elitist to a group of lower class people because they feel smarter and more educated (and show it).

or (what i'm guilty of sometimes) An academic musician will feel elitist towards self-taught music "dabblers".

Liking one genre over another can't make you elitist because regardless of what your tastes are, there isn't one better genre.

[Moseph]

I think you guys have a skewed definition of elitist.

An elitist is someone who considers there lifestyle and way of thinking as being better. (I know you are thinking... wtf... that's what we're talking about)

But here's what I'm talking about.
Elitists are people who think they are "Elite"... that means the best of the best.
And educated lawyer can be elitist to a group of lower class people because they feel smarter and more educated (and show it).

or (what i'm guilty of sometimes) An academic musician will feel elitist towards self-taught music "dabblers".

Liking one genre over another can't make you elitist because regardless of what your tastes are, there isn't one better genre.

I think there is an implied specification of "musical preference elitism."

Also, "elitism" is really used to describe an attitude that attempts to segregate a higher caste of people that maintain a set of principles or ideas. It doesn't necessarily only work one way.

That group of lower class people could feel a sense of elitism towards the lawyer because they have to work extremely hard just to scrape by, while he has a much easier lifestlye.

Those music "dabblers" could feel a sense of elitism towards the academically trained musicians because they are completely self-taught and the classically trained musicians needed help to learn.

[moogoogaipan]

^^
yeah, It works either way doesn't it.

Those music "dabblers" could feel a sense of elitism towards the academically trained musicians because they are completely self-taught and the classically trained musicians needed help to learn.
...but we all know that only musical prodigies really become masterful of their instrument without help from an outside source. :thumb:

[FRUGiHOYi]

Those music "dabblers" could feel a sense of elitism towards the academically trained musicians because they are completely self-taught and the classically trained musicians needed help to learn.
That's what I was gonna say. I'm pretty proud to be at the level I am considering I've never taken a guitar lesson in my life.

[Aus_rock_god]

Hi.

I’ve always thought of elitists as people who generally hate what everybody else likes, think anyone that doesn’t take in their views are idiots, or ‘noobs’ if they don’t already think the same way.

Although elitists have different views, they just choose not to conflict because they both agree on the same principle. That older or un-heard of music is by far better than anything else.

For instance a Children of Bodom lover will still respect the views of a Pink Floyd lover. However both will hate anything in the charts, no matter how talented it is.

This isn’t meant to be a heated thread. I just really want to learn these different views. Because no elitist on this planet has made sense to me yet.

Just write your views on why your music is better than other peoples music. And the first pranny thinking about being offensive because someone elses views differ to theirs can just p*ss off.

This is a study of elitists. Not an arguement.

Dude, get over it, seriously. Your obsession with this "eliteist" faction that you seem to beleive is everywhere is starting to disturb me.

[Mispeled]

There are some kinds of music I don't like to listen to, but I still believe that just about any kind of music has some redeeming value.

Anyway, to quote Eddie Van Halen:
"Music is for people. The word 'pop' is simply short for popular. It means that people like it. I'm just a normal jerk who happens to make music. As long as my brain and fingers work, I'm cool."

[DannySmith]

Dude, get over it, seriously. Your obsession with this "eliteist" faction that you seem to beleive is everywhere is starting to disturb me.
So instead of getting personal, try and prove me wrong.

Only elitists get personal when opinions different to theirs are portrayed.

Elitism isn't even something people just get pi*sed off about. It's a fact of musical theory. So no this isn't something personal, it's a valid theory discussion. And some good points have already been made here.

[The_Mop]

A mate of mine's dad is the most elitist prick I've ever come across. He thinks that Clapton is God, and Rory Gallagher is 2nd only to Clapton. I mean, yeah, Rory's a great gutiarist, and I havn't really heard enough of Clapton to really judge (but what I have heard has been pretty rubbish, tbh) but once me, a couple of mates and this guy's dad were travelling in his car, and I stuck a burnt CD with a load of stuff I like, including Satch and Vai and some other great gutiarists. He kept commenting on how Satch and Vai weren't original in the least.

I mean, yeah, opinion and all, but serously - Vai's not original? The fact he can play some things people could never hope to pretty much sets him aside from most people, as with Satch.

He was saying the same thing 'bout Tool, which I beleive would be a very broad accusation considering their music has been known to be hard to define, genre-wise.

I beleive that bands can only factually be compared in technicality. Otherwise, everything else is pretty much opinion. You can easily say that Steve Vai is a hell of a lot more technical than Dave Grohl, but whether you can really say who's 'better' is just opinion.

Elitism to me means that someone will feel that because they like/conform to something, they are somehow better than everyone else. This definatly ties in with prejudices and such. The story above pretty much proves that - he wouldn't listen to it purely because it was slightly heavier than what he liked.

[Aus_rock_god]

So instead of getting personal, try and prove me wrong.

Only elitists get personal when opinions different to theirs are portrayed.

Elitism isn't even something people just get pi*sed off about. It's a fact of musical theory. So no this isn't something personal, it's a valid theory discussion. And some good points have already been made here.

Wellll...

There's a few guys that see me as elitist because I have long hair, wear a jeather jacket and jeans and sport a nice big goatee.

There's been many times where jerks have come up to me and gone:

"Why to you listen to Slayer??? Why don't you listen to Greenday or somthing that isn't full of hate?"

To which my reply is:

"I actually listen to a lot of Pink Floyd, Pearl Jam and Seether. I do listen to Slayer though, I just love music in general. I dress the way I do because I like to dress like this.":thumb:

I don't get offended if somone belives that the music that is played on mainstream radio is better than the music I listen to. I personally don't give a sh!t.

I DO get offended, however, when people who beleive the stuff they play on mainstream radio is better, refuse to beleive there is a legitimant reason why I like the music I like (the fact that I love it, and that if music was a physical object, I'd probably make sweet sweet love to it), then call me an elitist.

I can understand why people listen to different music; because music is communicating the way somone thinks through sound, and everyone thinks differently. This is why groups of friends all listen to the same music.

Actually, come to think of it, I recon you're actually an elitist, you just don't know it :thumb: . Just instead of going "Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, ZAPPPAAAAAAA" you're doing the "Blink 182, Nickelback, GREENDAAAY", and taking offence when people say they listen to music waaay different.

Personally, I don't give a f*ck what other people listen to. If I find a band that I recon is friggin awesome, I'll give my mates a listen, some like it, some don't, it's all taste. Works the other way too.

If I don't like somthing that's on mainstream radio, it's because I honestly don't like it (that "close the god damn door" song sh!ts me up the wall). There is stuff on the radio I do like (I heard Wolfmother of the radio for the first time, and went out and got the CD the same day). If I like it I like it, if I don't, I don't. This doesn't make me an elitist though.

Music is sharing, sharing is caring.

Think about it dude :thumb: .

[DannySmith]

Wellll...

There's a few guys that see me as elitist because I have long hair, wear a jeather jacket and jeans and sport a nice big goatee.

There's been many times where jerks have come up to me and gone:

"Why to you listen to Slayer??? Why don't you listen to Greenday or somthing that isn't full of hate?"

To which my reply is:

"I actually listen to a lot of Pink Floyd, Pearl Jam and Seether. I do listen to Slayer though, I just love music in general. I dress the way I do because I like to dress like this.":thumb:

Well those guys’ probs haven't got a clue what they're talking about. I can't see how that would make you elitist either.

I don't get offended if somone belives that the music that is played on mainstream radio is better than the music I listen to. I personally don't give a sh!t.

I DO get offended, however, when people who beleive the stuff they play on mainstream radio is better, refuse to beleive there is a legitimant reason why I like the music I like (the fact that I love it, and that if music was a physical object, I'd probably make sweet sweet love to it), then call me an elitist.
Again, whoever does that probably doesn't know what they are talking about. But, can you see how others get offended when you say YOUR music is better than theirs? i.e. old or un-heard of music is better than what's on the radio? There are reasons why music on the radio IS better, just not the ones you look for. And calling one piece of music better than the other is completely stupid because there are so many things to measure on.

My elitist friend thinks a lot of these metal bands are better than the Beatles, because they are too narrow minded to look at the bigger picture.

I've found that elitists usually measure it on the bands speed. i.e. my friend thinks metal guitarists are better than any other because they shred the guitar super fast. Or that metal drummers are better than others because they use double pedal and do it really fast. And the singers sing with a real manly voice…

Actually, come to think of it, I recon you're actually an elitist, you just don't know it :thumb: . Just instead of going "Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, ZAPPPAAAAAAA" you're doing the "Blink 182, Nickelback, GREENDAAAY", and taking offence when people say they listen to music waaay different.
No I just protect it. Blink, Nickelback, Greenday?? Been a while since I've listened to them just so that you know. Difference is when my musical taste matured I didn't start hating what I used to like. Blink 182 is one of the bands that got me into rock, I'll never call them crap no matter how harder music I get into. Becuase I will always respect what was so special about them.

If I don't like somthing that's on mainstream radio, it's because I honestly don't like it (that "close the god damn door" song sh!ts me up the wall). There is stuff on the radio I do like (I heard Wolfmother of the radio for the first time, and went out and got the CD the same day). If I like it I like it, if I don't, I don't. This doesn't make me an elitist though.
I'm not 100% sure you are elitist, but you sound very much like the others. You think your tastes in music are 'hardcore', and that any band singing with lighter voices and light distortions are pink fluffy crap.

Remember a little while ago I mentioned I also have elitist friends, who think your tastes in music are pop. And the music they listen to is hardcore. Technical differences might approve that, but it's the image. Do you think that Pink Floyd and Metallica is light pink fluffy music for the kids?

An elitist is basically against anything pop. And I don't always believe it's because of their musical taste, it's because of the image. A friend of mine once described Blink 182 as a band you could imagine playing in Disneyland. As if it was a bad thing. A typical, elitist metalhead.

It's like some big mucho-man competition with musical tastes.

[Aus_rock_god]

Well those guys’ probs haven't got a clue what they're talking about. I can't see how that would make you elitist either.

Again, whoever does that probably doesn't know what they are talking about. But, can you see how others get offended when you say YOUR music is better than theirs? i.e. old or un-heard of music is better than what's on the radio? There are reasons why music on the radio IS better, just not the ones you look for. And calling one piece of music better than the other is completely stupid because there are so many things to measure on..

More or less, because everyone seems to have the opinion that metal heads only listen to metal, and only really give a f*ck about how fast people can play.

I dress like a metal head (mainly because I like the way I dress and don't give a f*ck what anyone thinks, and if I scare the crap out of somone, bonus).

My elitist friend thinks a lot of these metal bands are better than the Beatles, because they are too narrow minded to look at the bigger picture.

I've found that elitists usually measure it on the bands speed. i.e. my friend thinks metal guitarists are better than any other because they shred the guitar super fast. Or that metal drummers are better than others because they use double pedal and do it really fast. And the singers sing with a real manly voice…

This is because Metal is a culture built around virtuosity rather than artistic motive.

Don't get me wrong, I friggen love metal, I love how technical it is and how challenging it is to play, but the mindset a lot of hardcore metal heads have that all other music sucks is somthing you have to learn to live with.

Metal heads tend to beleive that their music is holy and sacred (which is cool) and get pissed off when somone says that Billy Joe is a better guitarist than Dave Mustaine, for example. This is because, like I said, they treasure the skill level of their idols, rather than how popular/entertaining they are.

No I just protect it. Blink, Nickelback, Greenday?? Been a while since I've listened to them just so that you know. Difference is when my musical taste matured I didn't start hating what I used to like. Blink 182 is one of the bands that got me into rock, I'll never call them crap no matter how harder music I get into. Becuase I will always respect what was so special about them.

AH! Now this is when i start f*cking with your head. You say you're defending it, which is exactly what every hardcore metal head on the planet is doing when they say "how could you possibly think George Harrison is a better guitarist than Dimebag Darryl". When somone says to a metal head that someone is better than somone else, they're talking about skill. But talking about record sales, or how well someone fits in with the band, and relating that to how good somone is, actually offends metal heads.

Now, you seem to get offended in the same respect, when a metal head tells you that Blink 182 is crap, because you listen for the artistic merit and where the sound of the band sits.

I argue that this is just as bad. All it is, is a disagreement between two parties that think differently, and listen to music differently.

I'm not 100% sure you are elitist, but you sound very much like the others. You think your tastes in music are 'hardcore', and that any band singing with lighter voices and light distortions are pink fluffy crap.

Now, hold on a second dude, I do like listening to Simon and Garfunkel and I enjoy The Beatles immencely. I also like Pearl Jam and S.R.V.

Remember a little while ago I mentioned I also have elitist friends, who think your tastes in music are pop. And the music they listen to is hardcore. Technical differences might approve that, but it's the image. Do you think that Pink Floyd and Metallica is light pink fluffy music for the kids?

On that, I'll actually mention that I sing my month old son, Jackson, Metellica and Pink Floyd to get him to sleep (Nothing Else Matters, Wiskey In A Jar, Confortably Numb, Goodbye Blue Sky, Wish You Were Here and Goodbye Blue Sky are his favorites).

An elitist is basically against anything pop. And I don't always believe it's because of their musical taste, it's because of the image. A friend of mine once described Blink 182 as a band you could imagine playing in Disneyland. As if it was a bad thing. A typical, elitist metalhead.

It's like some big mucho-man competition with musical tastes.

I disagree. I think that an elitist is somone who thinks that the values their chosen musical genre specialises in is more important than other values.

For example:

Metal: Technical Skill.

Alternative and Indie: Creativity and Individuality.

Pop/rock: Catchyness, general feel of the music (ie: how good the band sounds together).

Techno: Danciness of the music.

You get the idea.

A pop elitist will say, for example: "I hate Slayer, all they do is play really fast and shout a lot".

A metal elitist will say: "I hate Blink 182. They're more concerned with being commercially successful than actually playing their instruments well."

An alternative/indie elitist will say: "I hate Jet, because copy their riffs from The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and Creedence.

A techno elitist will say: "Everything's full of guitar solos and the music changes too much. I hate guitars." Lol.

It all comes down to values. You'll be suprised to know that metalheads actually think "mainstream people" are elitist, because that particular branch of the industry is more concerned with money than anything else.

Everyone will have what they like and what they don't like. It's saying that somone else is wrong, and defending your music from other people that makes you an elitist.

[FRUGiHOYi]

When somone says to a metal head that someone is better than somone else, they're talking about skill. But talking about record sales, or how well someone fits in with the band, and relating that to how good somone is, actually offends metal heads.

Yes, talking about how one band is better than another because of record sales does offend me and it should offend anyone with half a brain. It has nothing to do with being an elitist. If you think a band being on the radio means that they are better in some way than other bands, you are an idiot. Unless you are talking about having better luck, better connections, sucking more of Satan's ****... because it does not automatically mean in any way that the band is better musically than other bands.

And it seems that DannySmith thinks the same way ("There are reasons why music on the radio IS better, just not the ones you look for."). This is sad. Maybe I don't understand what you mean, but the message seemed pretty clear from both of you.

[Aus_rock_god]

Yes, talking about how one band is better than another because of record sales does offend me and it should offend anyone with half a brain. It has nothing to do with being an elitist. If you think a band being on the radio means that they are better in some way than other bands, you are an idiot. Unless you are talking about having better luck, better connections, sucking more of Satan's ****... because it does not automatically mean in any way that the band is better musically than other bands.

And it seems that DannySmith thinks the same way ("There are reasons why music on the radio IS better, just not the ones you look for."). This is sad. Maybe I don't understand what you mean, but the message seemed pretty clear from both of you.

Hey, don't get me wrong dude. I personally think 98% of music that gets on the radio these days is absolute drivvle. Some of it is the most pathetic, recycled, uninspiring drivvle I've ever heard.

I actually don't listen to the radio anymore (except for when I'm in the car with friends).

What I was saying that there definatly IS people (and musicians) that beleive that the biggest achievment you can make in music is to make a lot of money.

Personally, this sickens me that music (which is an ARTFORM) is seen as a product these days, but what I was trying to explain to Danny Smith that everyone on every side of the big grand musical arguement beleives they are right.

I myself, chose to be completely nutral in the conflict, but I do beleive that commercial success should NOT be seen as the greatest achivement in music.

[PECOAE]

I think the greatest achievement in music is to be able to have enjoyed yourself if you were to listen to your music when you were a teenager.

If you would have doted and been a fanboy, then I see that as the ultimate success.

[telewhore]

lol - i read about half of the thread so far (sorry, those huge posts are a no go haha)

my two cents on the subject - elitists are needed. Fact. At least in the musical world.

I'm having brain farts as to examples of this, but if it's wanted/needed I can see what I can do.

[Steerpike]

Hey, don't get me wrong dude. I personally think 98% of music that gets on the radio these days is absolute drivvle. Some of it is the most pathetic, recycled, uninspiring drivvle I've ever heard.

I know some will disagree with me about this, but I personally believe that 90% of the stuff on the radio is a matter of, "Throw it at the wall and see if it sticks." Radio is basically the pop proving grounds.

Anyway, what separates normal music fans from the elitists is agenda and worldview.

There are bands I can't ****ing stand. Trivium for example. Every time I hear my friend go on about how great they are, I want to track down Matt Heafy and tear out his larynx with my bare hands. But I keep my mouth shut and let my friend keep his albums... Okay, so I tend to spout my opinion now and again, but...

Now, elitists on the other hand will endlessly proselytize on why their music is superior, and yours is inferior. Their agenda is to convert everyone into being just like them because they genuinely believe that they have achieved a paradigm of artistic expression that surpasses all others. They are immune to the truth that their concept of superiority is incoherent, illogical, and will collapse in on itself when attacked by a more mentally agile opponent.

Elitists also viciously defend their world-view, and take even the most innocent counter-expression to their beliefs as a personal attack. They don't want to see or hear anything that could contradict their views of how the world works, so they create a mythology and a savage and reactionary defense against such ideas.

Let's take the earlier example. Compare a stereotypical lawyer to a stereotypical redneck. The lawyer sees his world as one where education and craftiness are everything. Those who did not recieve the sort of intense academic tutelage that he did are not as successful and never will be. When he sees someone who contradicts this paradigm, he either blatantly ignores it or makes up excuses.

The redneck on the other hand sees the blue-collar lifestyle as superior because of the work ethic. He also feels intimidated by educated people, so he begins to make up a mythology in which education and "common sense" are mutually exclusive.

This way, both men can maintain their comfortable paradigms without ever having to see or hear anything that would shake up their beliefs and force them to do some critical thinking.

You see with music elitists the exact same behavior. Frustrated guitar elitists become so focused on technicality that they never bother to build up any charisma and stage presence. To compensate, they adopt the belief that they are above stage presence, and that anyone who is not suitably wowed by their virtuosity isn't smart enough to get it.

Black metal elitists view the aesthetic of their favored genre as purer and more true to spirit. They see the perpetual underground status of the genre as a sign that it is too true for the "mainstream sheep." Of course, this intensely anti-social ethic is actually dooming the black metal scene, but they refuse to see it.

But one form of elitism that is particularly common and amuses me to no end is the "I'm so open-minded" elitist. These are people that go on and on about how open-minded they are and how they listen to everything. However, woe be to anyone who says they don't favor a particular genre, or tries to converse using sub-genre terminology. The elitist descends and complains about how "we all can't just get along" or about how genres are "pigeonholing artists."

As I said, all of these views are an incoherent, poorly organized house of cards that the elitists need to rabidly defend to keep from being destroyed by even the slightest breath of contradiction.

[The Minstrel in the Gallery]

I feel that too many people don't understand the term elitist. My two friends are country fans and they played me some country the other day. When they asked if I liked it, I told them I didn't and don't really like anything I've heard in the genre. Immediatley they call me a musical elitist and criticize me for listening to obscure, ultra technical prog bands from the seventies. Am I allowed to not like a certain genres? I don't like most classical. I think it's boring. So many responses I have gotten from this are zomg have an open mind, you elitist. I did have an open mind. I listened to it and didn't care for it. Do I appreciate it? Sure. But do I enjoy it? Not at all. Too many people thing not liking something makes you an etilist. Saying something sucks and not appreciating it's value are what makes someone elitist.

[zfmt]

i was an elitist for a very long time. i listened to emo/screamo. only emo/screamo. i truely believe it was the only type of music. i would get very frustrated and angry when i heard something else. the only reason (in my opinion) that i broke from that was, i went to a music store and bought a beck cd. i threw it inot the cd player at first i thought i wasted my money. then i listened to the cd 3 or 4 times. and fell in love. i realised that beck, although i was... unsure about him, he was great i now give anything a chance.

[zfmt]

i was an elitist for a very long time. i listened to emo/screamo. only emo/screamo. i truely believe it was the only type of music. i would get very frustrated and angry when i heard something else. the only reason (in my opinion) that i broke from that was, i went to a music store and bought a beck cd. i threw it inot the cd player at first i thought i wasted my money. then i listened to the cd 3 or 4 times. and fell in love. i realised that beck, although i was... unsure about him, he was great i now give anything a chance.

[zfmt]

wha? how the **** did i double post? sic.

[DannySmith]

but the mindset a lot of hardcore metal heads have that all other music sucks is somthing you have to learn to live with.

Yeh I've realised that... my friends do it. I don't mind them having opinions but when they think Children of Bodom is the greatest band to walk the planet as a fact, I disagree, then they rant on about how they know music so much more than I do and how I'm a noob and should take in what they've said e.t.c. (You wonder why I get pi$$ed off with elitists?)

Metal heads tend to beleive that their music is holy and sacred (which is cool) and get pissed off when somone says that Billy Joe is a better guitarist than Dave Mustaine, for example. This is because, like I said, they treasure the skill level of their idols, rather than how popular/entertaining they are.
If people like metal for that reason then great! That's their opinion. But they go around saying that these people are the BEST. They can't think outside of the circle. They completely forget things LIKE how entertaining they are (let alone how good the riffs actually are).

Another reason how they don't think outside of the box. They think Billy Joe sucks because he doesn't play fast. But, does that really mean he can't? (Billy Joe is actually a pretty good guitarist and he's more than capable of pulling off these solos, but there is a reason he doesn't. That's what elitists fail to apprehend.)

AH! Now this is when i start f*cking with your head. You say you're defending it, which is exactly what every hardcore metal head on the planet is doing when they say "how could you possibly think George Harrison is a better guitarist than Dimebag Darryl". When somone says to a metal head that someone is better than somone else, they're talking about skill. But talking about record sales, or how well someone fits in with the band, and relating that to how good somone is, actually offends metal heads.

This is where you are not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying George Harrison IS a better guitarist. People are good for different THINGS. There IS no 'best'. Sure these metal guitarists can play faster than George Harrison, but did they create some of the most popular riffs of all time? Did they appeal to THAT many people?

Well George Harrison did. But that doesn't make him better. Which I believe is what you think I am saying.

Now, you seem to get offended in the same respect, when a metal head tells you that Blink 182 is crap, because you listen for the artistic merit and where the sound of the band sits.

I argue that this is just as bad. All it is, is a disagreement between two parties that think differently, and listen to music differently.
Another point of which you aren't getting what I'm saying... Just so that you know Pink Floyd is one of my favourites. Queen, Soilwork, COB, Metallica. These ARE the bands I listen to.

But because I like both mainstream and the not so mainstream, I see from a fair perspective. I try to see things from outside of the circle.

Of course everyone is entitled to their own tastes. It's all opinions. I prefer Muse to Pink Floyd. I wouldn't like to say Muse are better though.

Now, hold on a second dude, I do like listening to Simon and Garfunkel and I enjoy The Beatles immencely. I also like Pearl Jam and S.R.V.

On that, I'll actually mention that I sing my month old son, Jackson, Metellica and Pink Floyd to get him to sleep (Nothing Else Matters, Wiskey In A Jar, Confortably Numb, Goodbye Blue Sky, Wish You Were Here and Goodbye Blue Sky are his favorites).

I disagree. I think that an elitist is someone who thinks that the values their chosen musical genre specialises in is more important than other values.

For example:

Metal: Technical Skill.

Alternative and Indie: Creativity and Individuality.

Pop/rock: Catchyness, general feel of the music (ie: how good the band sounds together).

Techno: Danciness of the music.

You get the idea.

A pop elitist will say, for example: "I hate Slayer, all they do is play really fast and shout a lot".

A metal elitist will say: "I hate Blink 182. They're more concerned with being commercially successful than actually playing their instruments well."

An alternative/indie elitist will say: "I hate Jet, because copy their riffs from The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and Creedence.

A techno elitist will say: "Everything's full of guitar solos and the music changes too much. I hate guitars." Lol.

It all comes down to values. You'll be suprised to know that metalheads actually think "mainstream people" are elitist, because that particular branch of the industry is more concerned with money than anything else.

Everyone will have what they like and what they don't like. It's saying that somone else is wrong, and defending your music from other people that makes you an elitist.

From reading that statement, that's fine. But then why did you say that the Beatles were better than Nickelback in an older discussion? Can George Harrison really pull off the same licks as Chad Kroeger?

This is my ENTIRE point in a nutshell. Bands or musicians success cannot be measured solely on ONE single factor. They are all good for different things. As you said yourself, elitists go by ONE thing and think the band is all that and a piece of pie.

Personally, this sickens me that music (which is an ARTFORM) is seen as a product these days, but what I was trying to explain to Danny Smith that everyone on every side of the big grand musical arguement beleives they are right.
As does everyone on the other side. Doesn't that teach people something?

I myself, chose to be completely nutral in the conflict, but I do beleive that commercial success should NOT be seen as the greatest achivement in music.
How is that neutral? Seeing how something in the charts isn't the greatest achievement in music but something else is?

I like to think I see things as neutral. And believe that there is no 'greatest achievement' in music.

And my god this is one long post. Hands down to you if you got this far.

[DannySmith]

I feel that too many people don't understand the term elitist. My two friends are country fans and they played me some country the other day. When they asked if I liked it, I told them I didn't and don't really like anything I've heard in the genre. Immediatley they call me a musical elitist and criticize me for listening to obscure, ultra technical prog bands from the seventies. Am I allowed to not like a certain genres? I don't like most classical. I think it's boring. So many responses I have gotten from this are zomg have an open mind, you elitist. I did have an open mind. I listened to it and didn't care for it. Do I appreciate it? Sure. But do I enjoy it? Not at all. Too many people thing not liking something makes you an etilist. Saying something sucks and not appreciating it's value are what makes someone elitist.
I think you just nailed it in one there.

[moogoogaipan]

Now, elitists on the other hand will endlessly proselytize on why their music is superior, and yours is inferior. Their agenda is to convert everyone into being just like them because they genuinely believe that they have achieved a paradigm of artistic expression that surpasses all others. They are immune to the truth that their concept of superiority is incoherent, illogical, and will collapse in on itself when attacked by a more mentally agile opponent.

Elitists also viciously defend their world-view, and take even the most innocent counter-expression to their beliefs as a personal attack. They don't want to see or hear anything that could contradict their views of how the world works, so they create a mythology and a savage and reactionary defense against such ideas.

good post.
I just wanted to point out that I was reading this and it is the perfect model for christianity.

[moogoogaipan]

OK, here comes an elitist post (sort of).

What I see is that the real elitism comes from new musicians. Those who have been playing under 5 years or who have attained only a minimum knowledge of their instrument.

I have a wide variety of music on my iPod... from my personal favs of jazz and japanese pop to symphonic scores and various techno, metal, funk, latin, and even afro-funk.
I can play this in my car and I notice a difference in how various passengers respond.

people with no musical training will listen and say things like "hey, this is a cool song." They won't really be into it, but they won't condescend to it.

on the next level in my younger friends who have recently picked up an instrument and they have picked an idol within a certain genre. If I play something outside there genre the response is usually this... "Why do you listen to this. It sounds cool and all, but have you heard [insert favorite artist]" This sounds like the bad beginnings of elitism.

Finally, comes my friends from the University who have been playing for many many years. We'll listen to something like Japanese pop or Michelle Branch and the conversation usually follows... "That's an interesting tone on that guitar" or "That texture in the background gives the music a really cool flow" or "Let's try and arrange that into a jazz tune".

It's all in how you look at it. In my experience, people who dont' want to put the effort in to succeed, or give up after not seeing the results they want will cling to a certain genre and get territorial so that it seems as though they are important to the success of something.

Everyone is elitist, it's impossible to avoid and that's tricky a hell

[DannySmith]

BORING!!


meh... why try.
lol well it's his opinion. Mine too up to a degree. I like it played live, but wouldn't want to listen to a full CD of it.

[moogoogaipan]

^^haha... I changed my post. I didn't want to start anything.

[Steerpike]

Everyone is elitist, it's impossible to avoid and that's tricky a hell

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Elitism is a hostile, close-minded mindset, and is essentially the dark side of favoritism.

[moogoogaipan]

^^Elistist isn't hostile. It can be hostile, but it also can be subtle.

I don't get hostile with people, but I have a very subtle elitism towards the guys I see on campus with their guitars out and their just strumming major chord progressions.
I don't go and choke them or yell at them, but I think to myself "If they would just come visit some of our classes in the music department they would be wowed and perhaps even practice something useful."

[Steerpike]

^^Elistist isn't hostile. It can be hostile, but it also can be subtle.

I don't get hostile with people, but I have a very subtle elitism towards the guys I see on campus with their guitars out and their just strumming major chord progressions.
I don't go and choke them or yell at them, but I think to myself "If they would just come visit some of our classes in the music department they would be wowed and perhaps even practice something useful."

I wouldn't call that elitism. Merely the fact that serious musicians often forget what it's like to be a non-musician/serious music fan. I don't consider that elitism at all. Merely a POV issue.

[Joseph India]

It seems like you guys dont agree on the definition of "elitist."
How can you talk about it if you all define it differently?
Let's try
In an earlier post I described it as - Someone who doesn's see art as subjective, so whatever artist they happen to listen to is considered objectively superior.

Do you agree/disagree? Want to add to it?

[DannySmith]

It seems like you guys dont agree on the definition of "elitist."
How can you talk about it if you all define it differently?
Let's try
In an earlier post I described it as - Someone who doesn's see art as subjective, so whatever artist they happen to listen to is considered objectively superior.

Do you agree/disagree? Want to add to it?
I don't know I think elitism comes in different forms. The way I perceive it may be different to others. Neither way is wrong exactly.

Exactly why everyone has different different thoughts on what elitists are here.

[Scuba_Steve]

For me, elitists cojnures up an image of some big guy who's obviously been into a scene (The punk scene, for example used to have ALOT of this) for a while, picking on some smaller, obviously younger kid who just got into the scene, and doesnt' like exactly what everyone else does.

I often fall into the spot of the little guy, I listen to MANY kinds of music...but I don't study bands bios or even remember song names for many of them. That leads to people trying to strike up conversations with me that end up in them going "wtf? you don't even like them do you?"

Truth is, I couldn't care less. If someone feels that way whatever, it won't change who I am and I won't try and change them either cause they deserve to look like an ***.


But enough of personal rants, here's what I think how someone classifies as a music elitist.

-Generally only listens to one type of music (it can be any kind, really)
-Thinks their genre of music is superior to everyone elses
and this is the deciding point
-They don't just think it, they force it onto other people...attempting to "enlighten them".

It's a stupid thing, but in a testosterone driven genre like punk or metal, you'll a ****load of these guys who just like to pick fights and prove to be superior.

[moogoogaipan]

I wouldn't call that elitism. Merely the fact that serious musicians often forget what it's like to be a non-musician/serious music fan. I don't consider that elitism at all. Merely a POV issue.
if you don't cosider that elitist, then a great burden has been lifted. By your standards, I'm not a bad person.
seriously, if you don't consider that elitist, then I'm feeling much better.
I hate be considered anything negative.:chug:

[edit] everyone's opinion of elitism seems to revolve around non-musicians...or at least people who live the lifestyle of a certain genre.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but the observations I'm making seem to be that a lot of you encounter elitist who may have limited musical training, but are so devoted to a genre that they think they know all about that certain style of music and since they can't learn more about another (either out of ignorance or arrogance) they tend to get territorial

[Steerpike]

Not really. The main reason I didn't frequent the guitar forum much in the early days when I first joined was because I was tired of being bludgeoned over the head with names like Steve Vai and John Petrucci.

A lot of elitists come to their attitudes to justify the time, money, and effort they've expended in their pursuit. They're not content to simply "be." Their work has to make them better, enlightened, and superior.