Paying to play a gig?

[Dumpweedrock]

Does anyone else think this is stupid? I don't see how i can be benifited if i have to pay to play a show. This one place wants 110 bucks for 20 tickets and we sell them at w/e price we want.


I just want to know if it is commom for places to do this or is it only these places around me?

Just so we are clear this is talking about original bands

[Moseph]

It's pretty common.

The idea is that the bar gets paid even if nobody shows up. The downside is that you need to have a following to make it work; you're not likely to gain any additional fans either (unless you're playing with other bands).

You can make some money off of merch if you're motivated. Additionally, if you have a strong street team presence, you might be able to make it work out for the best.

Obviously, if it's the only available gig for awhile, you might be stuck if you need to gain notoreity.

[Seafroggys]

never do those type of gigs....they are morally and ethically wrong. You should never EVER have to pay to perform under any circumstance whatsoever! The venue just cares about ensuring their profit....if you really are good enough, and you got a good following, you can get any other type of gig and get dough for yourself and profit for the venue.

[Caleb3221]

The reason these gigs are common is because bands agree to play them since they are desperate for a gig. Do NOT do this, because it makes it harder for people with higher standards for gigging, and for yourself. If no one else did that, you'd get paid like a normal band does/should. But because of all the people selling themselves so short, it's basically a lowest bidder type thing, they'll get bands so desperate to play they will pay the bar to let them play there. I think this is a terrible idea and needs to stop.

[the_only_singer]

Yeah, I can't say I have ever understood why people do this sort of thing.

[Seafroggys]

Its an endless cycle, really....and since people are desperate, the venues can get away with it....

I've only done this sort of thing once....it wasn't pay-to-play, but we had to sell tickets.....let me say that I will never do that again!

[Invicta_Veritas]

The Pay to Play provision is extremely common and a necessary evil in the music industry. You'll put more effort into avoiding it for nothing than you will just accepting it. I'm not saying it's good; it's just there, and will probably always be so.


Yes, it sucks for the band, but you have to understand that the venue is a business, and if they are to take a gamble on a band that they aren't sure will draw a number of people, they have to make sure they don't lose money. I really dislike musicians that think everyone is out to screw them in the industry. This may be true in a lot of cases, but things like this are common sense.

[Seafroggys]

The Pay to Play provision is extremely common and a necessary evil in the music industry. You'll put more effort into avoiding it for nothing than you will just accepting it. I'm not saying it's good; it's just there, and will probably always be so.

this is the type of attitude that is detrimental to our society. If people continue to think this way, nothing will change, life will not get better, and those in power can get away with more.

If you fight the system, then change can happen. You can make a difference in this world. You can make it a better place.

I am calling everybody to join me in the boycott of paying to play.

These places didn't exist 10 years ago, why should they exist now?

[Invicta_Veritas]

this is the type of attitude that is detrimental to our society. If people continue to think this way, nothing will change, life will not get better, and those in power can get away with more.

If you fight the system, then change can happen. You can make a difference in this world. You can make it a better place.

I am calling everybody to join me in the boycott of paying to play.

These places didn't exist 10 years ago, why should they exist now?

Seriously dude, did you not read the entire second half of my post?

Why? Because that's what Capitalism gets us. We just had to have a completely capitalist society, therefore modern business evolved that way. It's our own fault.


Anyway, you go ahead and do that. Choke out the businesses that you want to play at, bite the hand that feeds, and get nowhere with your band. Go ahead. In the meantime, I will continue to manipulate the system and make it work so my band can [continue to] be successful.

[Seafroggys]

yes I did read your second part of your post, and your still part of the "oh well thats the way it is" philosophy. Did you even read ANY part of my post?

I've played plenty of normal gigs.....you know, the type your supposed to get? Well your either paid for your services or for free if you are just starting out. Yeah....and I know of the places that are pay to play, and I steer clear of those places.

Once you start playing the bar/club scene it gets way better. But (I'm assuming) your not old enough to have played those. Correct me if I'm wrong however.

Anyways, the only way you can get in a respectable joint is through a demo or having someone go to one of your gigs. You know, word of mouth or having them actually hear you? Yeah, thats the way its always been done. Its not much of a gamble if they know your sound anyways. But maybe you didn't know that.

[Aus_rock_god]

Does anyone else think this is stupid? I don't see how i can be benifited if i have to pay to play a show. This one place wants 110 bucks for 20 tickets and we sell them at w/e price we want.


I just want to know if it is commom for places to do this or is it only these places around me?

Just so we are clear this is talking about original bands

Yeah, event promoters that are really sh!t do this.

It happens when a promoter doesn't have time/can't be fu(ked promoting their own gig and want some sort of garantee that they're not going to go bust. Or when all the bands are unsigned and there's no real garantee anyone will show up.

It also happens when a promoter wants to keep 100% of the profits, but wants to give the bands a little somthing back.

Personally, I'd never do that.

[pitchfork]

they're charging too much for the tickets for a start.

Say you'll give them 90 for the tickets.
No one buys tickets at 5.50 for a band they don't know, thats what you would need to break even.

Wait til you're an established band.

[Aus_rock_god]

^^^ well, if a bar/promoter wants $90 a ticket for a bunch of unsigned bands... forget alarm bells, air-raid sirens should be going off in your head.

$10 aus is pretty much the absolute maximum you should expect to pay to see about 5-7 unsigned bands, $15 if it's a major headliner and a few unsigned support bands, $5 if it's a handful of weekend rock gods.

No-one will pay more than $15 to see unsigned bands, even if their mates are in a few bands.

[Merkaba]

this is the type of attitude that is detrimental to our society. If people continue to think this way, nothing will change, life will not get better, and those in power can get away with more.

If you fight the system, then change can happen. You can make a difference in this world. You can make it a better place.

I am calling everybody to join me in the boycott of paying to play.

These places didn't exist 10 years ago, why should they exist now?
You guys are really overanalyzing this thing. There is no rule or law when it comes to gigging. Its all about supply and deman and profit. And I dont care what anyone says, unless youre stupid, you want to make a profit from your music. So does the pub/bar. If youre hot enough, you could go to any common pay to play venue and say I'm not paying but we want to play here, and if youre hot enough and bring in the bucks, they will say sure. Its not evil. Its business. I think 83cents a pound is a bit hefty for bananas but I pay it or go elsewhere. Its not evil. Its supply and demand. What fuels a free economy. If theres no place to play and you think you deserve a chance to be seen you'll pay or just be a garageband. If there's not many "free venues" around then there will be a monopoly on the situation, which would breed competition in the form of someone opening up another venue.

[shane_sow]

20 people at a show isn't worth the hassle.

Add on the cost of a sound guy, promotion and all that and you'll end up at about $10 a ticket.

At the venue I work at on occasion, they have 4 local bands and one larger band for $8 a ticket.

My band played there and supported a band called "The Hard Ons". Some of the Aussies here may have heard of them... they are pretty big over here. Drew a crowd of about 300 and the venue ended up in profit.

Don't pay for a venue until you make it big... or a little bit big.

[Invicta_Veritas]

You guys are really overanalyzing this thing. There is no rule or law when it comes to gigging. Its all about supply and deman and profit. And I dont care what anyone says, unless youre stupid, you want to make a profit from your music. So does the pub/bar. If youre hot enough, you could go to any common pay to play venue and say I'm not paying but we want to play here, and if youre hot enough and bring in the bucks, they will say sure. Its not evil. Its business. I think 83cents a pound is a bit hefty for bananas but I pay it or go elsewhere. Its not evil. Its supply and demand. What fuels a free economy. If theres no place to play and you think you deserve a chance to be seen you'll pay or just be a garageband. If there's not many "free venues" around then there will be a monopoly on the situation, which would breed competition in the form of someone opening up another venue.

QFT.

[Seafroggys]

if you're band is good enough, you don't need to worry about paying at all.

Most of the bands I see at pay-to-play....well, I can understand why that's the only gig they can get :D

[OpIvyKills]

20 tickets for $100+? That's not worth it all all. You might gain 1 fan from that show. Not to mention that you probably don't have a big local following (since you have to pay to play) that it will be hard to sell 20 tickets for $5. That's before paying the soundman (promoting won't be more than a dollar or two since it's only 20 tickets and there's so many free/dirt cheap ways to get the word on a show out, like a band myspace, flyers, and the great way of word of mouth). I think it would be ok to pay to play once or twice, but not more than that, especially if it's only 20 tickets. I'd try to work out a different kind of deal with the venue or just move on to a new one.

[DougJI]

this is the type of attitude that is detrimental to our society. If people continue to think this way, nothing will change, life will not get better, and those in power can get away with more.

If you fight the system, then change can happen. You can make a difference in this world. You can make it a better place.

I am calling everybody to join me in the boycott of paying to play.

These places didn't exist 10 years ago, why should they exist now?

10 years ago was 1996, Nirvana wrote a song in 91 entitled pay to play (about this subject), which they eventually changed to stay away...

This method has been around a lot longer then the past 16 years. It makes business sense, but not moral sense.

There are venues who will let you play, although they may not pay you. These make more sense businesswise (at least to me) so I don't understand why venues continue with the former method.

[Seafroggys]

i have no problems playing for free. Its art, it doesn't matter if you get paid or not for it, its still beautiful (well, some music is). On the other hand, if you have to play to display your art, that's where the problem lies.

You might be right on the history. However, its still a recent invention. My parents had never heard of such a thing when I was telling them about it, so it definitally wasn't around during the 70s.

[jurialmunkey]

You guys are really overanalyzing this thing. There is no rule or law when it comes to gigging. Its all about supply and deman and profit. And I dont care what anyone says, unless youre stupid, you want to make a profit from your music. So does the pub/bar. If youre hot enough, you could go to any common pay to play venue and say I'm not paying but we want to play here, and if youre hot enough and bring in the bucks, they will say sure. Its not evil. Its business. I think 83cents a pound is a bit hefty for bananas but I pay it or go elsewhere. Its not evil. Its supply and demand. What fuels a free economy. If theres no place to play and you think you deserve a chance to be seen you'll pay or just be a garageband. If there's not many "free venues" around then there will be a monopoly on the situation, which would breed competition in the form of someone opening up another venue.

I agree completely, this thread is stupid.

You pay for the tickets to ensure that your friends pay to come see you; Rather than you just giving them the tickets for free and then the pub doesn't get any money from the gig to pay the Sound Guy and insurance.

Alot of bands have their own sound guy and the pub doesn't have to pay for it. These tickets you have are called pre-sale tickets and are such to ensure that you can pull a big enough crowd for the venue to turn a profit.

If you can't find 20 mates who will pay 5-8 bucks to come see your band when you are just starting out, then you will have great difficulty getting anywhere... The only people that will come to your first shows will be your mates and maybe a couple of others. (if people are coming for the headliner, they may not make it for the first support so you cant rely on that) Its your friends and the mates that they bring that start to spread word about your band to other people they know. This is how you START to create a BUZZ. (Theres alot more involved once you get past this stage)

If the pub wasn't selling beer then they wouldn't make any profit. Pubs have regular customers that come to the pub to buy beer, so that means the pub would turn a profit even if your band wasn't there!! What your band brings is the possibility of more people coming than their regulars and the people stay for longer because they are entertained.

With an unknown band it is quite possible that they WONT be entertaining and the people will leave. The regulars may not enjoy the music and go to another pub and the pub will gain a reputation for putting on crappy gigs (this can be a possible marketing angle but thats another story entirely and most pubs wouldn't want that sort of spin, especially if they are used to having big gigs.

Pubs also have to pay licensing fees to host live music and there is also public liability and other equiptment insurance (Sound systems and PA cost lots of money). PUBS DONT NEED MUSIC TO SELL BEER, Poker Machines have proved that!!!! There is no reason for them to put live music on to turn a profit except for gaining good reputation and maintaining a traditional perspective of going to the pub to be entertained plus the bonus of maybe getting a huge act that pulls a big crowd a few times a year.

[panthersfan16]

I don't think this thread is stupid. I think paying to play is definitely controversial with many possible viewpoints.

I personally don't see anything wrong with it. Just the other day we were offered to open for a band called Testament, which according to my uber metalhead friend are pretty big, on the condition that we sell 20 tickets. This would have been an excellent oppurtunity because of the exposure we would have gotten, not to mention the fact that the money we pay really comes from the people buying the tickets, so its more like a free gig. And even though you say people come just for the headliners, thats not true. I've always gone to every show I have been to early enough to see the openers. Thats how I discovered some awesome bands like Bleed the Sky :)

[Scuba_Steve]

I personally don't see anything wrong with it. Just the other day we were offered to open for a band called Testament, which according to my uber metalhead friend are pretty big, on the condition that we sell 20 tickets. This would have been an excellent oppurtunity because of the exposure we would have gotten, not to mention the fact that the money we pay really comes from the people buying the tickets, so its more like a free gig. And even though you say people come just for the headliners, thats not true. I've always gone to every show I have been to early enough to see the openers. Thats how I discovered some awesome bands like Bleed the Sky :)


hold on, you turned down opening for TESTAMENT!?! that's insanity.


On another note, I believe this whole "pay to play" thing started in L.A during the huge glamrock/hair metal fad of the 80s. Bars had so many bands that sounded the same that they decided they'd make a profit off of it too.

[jurialmunkey]

I more meant the fact that people were being so adamant about their veiwpoint when alot of musicians agree with the current setup. The thread discussion is great, I agree, just people not considering other sides of an argument is stupid. I was a bit rash with my words, sorry.

I didnt say the people ONLY come for the headliner, you just cant count on the fact that people coming for the headliner will also see your band. I try to see every band on a bill but if I'm going for the headliner, sometimes I might be in a bit of a rush to get there and wont make it in time for the first band (And I'm someone who will go to a gig with 4 bands I have never heard of and always try to see every band, and I miss seeing a support or two occasionally!!)
You have to remember that a large percentage of your possible audience will NOT have this perspective so if you are relying on this aspect then unless you are lucky, it will be a huge struggle.

The point you make about the money really coming from the audience is completely true and what I was getting at about pre-sale tickets.

[panthersfan16]

Ah of course you can't rely on it, but some people will show, especially if its like the Testament show. If you even gain one or two fans, chances are they will tell their friends who like the same music, and thats how it starts. Even if you gain one or two fans here and there it is worth it in my opinion.

To the other guy, we weren't ready for a gig like opening for Testament. We had enough songs to fill a 20 minute slot and two of them were covers : (

[Aus_rock_god]

20 people at a show isn't worth the hassle.

Add on the cost of a sound guy, promotion and all that and you'll end up at about $10 a ticket.

At the venue I work at on occasion, they have 4 local bands and one larger band for $8 a ticket.

My band played there and supported a band called "The Hard Ons". Some of the Aussies here may have heard of them... they are pretty big over here. Drew a crowd of about 300 and the venue ended up in profit.

Don't pay for a venue until you make it big... or a little bit big.

True. Most event promotors aim to get 100 people in before making a profit (which usually works out to $5 - $10 a ticket, depending on what they need to hire/who they need to pay).

One show I put on had 20 local bands, no headliner and we made $5000 profit on the door and $3500 on the drinks (about 600 people showed up).

I wouldn't say "don't pay for a venue before you make it big", because a lot of bands have their first real gig by putting it on themselves and getting a headliner. When you hire a venue, you usually have to pay for it within 14 working days after the show itself, so you normally just pay out of what you made on the door.

You shouldn't have to pay to play at a gig somone else is organising though. That's just spastic.

[Aus_rock_god]

I more meant the fact that people were being so adamant about their veiwpoint when alot of musicians agree with the current setup. The thread discussion is great, I agree, just people not considering other sides of an argument is stupid. I was a bit rash with my words, sorry.

I didnt say the people ONLY come for the headliner, you just cant count on the fact that people coming for the headliner will also see your band. I try to see every band on a bill but if I'm going for the headliner, sometimes I might be in a bit of a rush to get there and wont make it in time for the first band (And I'm someone who will go to a gig with 4 bands I have never heard of and always try to see every band, and I miss seeing a support or two occasionally!!)
You have to remember that a large percentage of your possible audience will NOT have this perspective so if you are relying on this aspect then unless you are lucky, it will be a huge struggle.

The point you make about the money really coming from the audience is completely true and what I was getting at about pre-sale tickets.

Well, why do you think they call the opening acts "support" bands? Because the headliners need bands that will draw new people in to listen to their music. The deal works both ways.

[Seafroggys]

I wouldn't say "don't pay for a venue before you make it big", because a lot of bands have their first real gig by putting it on themselves and getting a headliner. When you hire a venue, you usually have to pay for it within 14 working days after the show itself, so you normally just pay out of what you made on the door.

You shouldn't have to pay to play at a gig somone else is organising though. That's just spastic.

Yeah I agree with this. If your doing your own show, obviously you need to pay the venue and sound guys and stuff, thats a given. But also what he said, paying to play at some other person's gig is just dumb, as I've made clear in my other posts!

[i am the robots]

A friend's band started out this way... it got them shows, but they were in debt forever... they started playing at free venues, and asking for donations, and luckily they had the fan base built from the pay shows to earn it all back... but why even risk debt when you can just play the free places anyhow?

[Aus_rock_god]

Some people are just... silly.

[kidthatplaysguitar91]

Thats stupid. Tell the guy that wants you to pay him to **** off.

Musicians bring the people in. The place pays YOU for entertainment.
You advertise because you want more people to see you play. And then you both make money. Thats how it should be.

[Jon]

I'll play for a pint or just a 'thank you', but if you're actually losing money due to playing a gig that's a nono.

There's a difference between being allocated a certain amount of tickets to sell, and actually paying to play though.

[Merkaba]

i have no problems playing for free. Its art, it doesn't matter if you get paid or not for it, its still beautiful (well, some music is). On the other hand, if you have to play to display your art, that's where the problem lies.

You might be right on the history. However, its still a recent invention. My parents had never heard of such a thing when I was telling them about it, so it definitally wasn't around during the 70s.
True but you say some music is beautiful, not all? Thats why pay to play makes sense for some pubs because it might not be beautiful enough....yet its art right?, so why should you have to pay to display it even if opinions of it aren't so great, if morals of freedom of expression rule this situation? But they don't. And if you want to display your art in a business that business has a right to charge whatever. Even in "2d" art expos you usually have booth or space rent/fees. Same argument. Just for the record, I dont really like the pay to play thing and it sucks...but it is what it is.

I agree completely, this thread is stupid.

You pay for the tickets to ensure that your friends pay to come see you; Rather than you just giving them the tickets for free and then the pub doesn't get any money from the gig to pay the Sound Guy and insurance.

Alot of bands have their own sound guy and the pub doesn't have to pay for it. These tickets you have are called pre-sale tickets and are such to ensure that you can pull a big enough crowd for the venue to turn a profit.

If you can't find 20 mates who will pay 5-8 bucks to come see your band when you are just starting out, then you will have great difficulty getting anywhere... The only people that will come to your first shows will be your mates and maybe a couple of others. (if people are coming for the headliner, they may not make it for the first support so you cant rely on that) Its your friends and the mates that they bring that start to spread word about your band to other people they know. This is how you START to create a BUZZ. (Theres alot more involved once you get past this stage)

If the pub wasn't selling beer then they wouldn't make any profit. Pubs have regular customers that come to the pub to buy beer, so that means the pub would turn a profit even if your band wasn't there!! What your band brings is the possibility of more people coming than their regulars and the people stay for longer because they are entertained.

With an unknown band it is quite possible that they WONT be entertaining and the people will leave. The regulars may not enjoy the music and go to another pub and the pub will gain a reputation for putting on crappy gigs (this can be a possible marketing angle but thats another story entirely and most pubs wouldn't want that sort of spin, especially if they are used to having big gigs.

Pubs also have to pay licensing fees to host live music and there is also public liability and other equiptment insurance (Sound systems and PA cost lots of money). PUBS DONT NEED MUSIC TO SELL BEER, Poker Machines have proved that!!!! There is no reason for them to put live music on to turn a profit except for gaining good reputation and maintaining a traditional perspective of going to the pub to be entertained plus the bonus of maybe getting a huge act that pulls a big crowd a few times a year.
So true. We have like three or four major spots around three counties here, for heavier music. Beer is the profit. The pub/venue wants you to buy beer. Its like a gym. They make most of their profit at the pro shop from shakes and etc., not from people joining or coming out.

My previous band had a member that was close with a manager of one of the best venues, best meaning most popular. And we were talking about that. Its about getting people out, and getting them drunk.....or at least to drink. And your first gigs are always gonna be paying friends. Not free friends. They have to know this. and your friends bring friends that tell friends, hopefully. And hopefully if the venue thinks youre worthy you can get an opening slot which helps create more fans.

[Dumpweedrock]

here's the way i see it.

if you( the band ) is providing the entertainmet and doing a service that the bar wants from you, shouldnt you be getting paid? Personnaly i don't care about making money from show, i just want people to come. So if i'm offerd a show, i will promote the **** out of it, and then the bar just has to chrage say 5 bucks at the door for my band a a few others. Now the way it's always worked for me is that when a person walks in the guy at the door asks them who they are here to see and then the take a tally of what band drew how many people. then they pay the band like 2 dollars a head or somthing for each person that they brought in, and the bar takes the rest. Idk if this makes sence to anyof you but i thinks it's a great way to do it for small local bands just starting out.

But now as my band is cutting our first ep and begiin to get into the world of selling merch, i think that it's the pubs job to promote their own show so that they make money and the the band just gets an ducience to play to, then it's the bands job to make thier money by playing well ,recruting fans and selling thier merch. thats how i see it working, but what do i know, i have only played maybye 10 gigs so im not saying that i am experienced in anyway