Themes/Ideology in Music

[Silenius]

Recently I have been noticing more than usual the amount of value some people place on lyrics. While some lyrics are simply personal/descriptive/whatever, others very openly force the bands ideology upon you (like NSBM). My question is: Does anyone value music more when it lines up with their ideology and vice versa. Personally I don't give a ****. I couldn't care less (to a reasonable extent) what is sung about. I find that good lyrics enhance a good album but if the music sucks the lyrics can't make it better (so the music is important to me not lyrics). Lyrics do turn me off to some music though (see songs that have the chrous "Sieg Heil" over and over or "SATAN SATAN!!" lyrics). So for me good music + good lyrics =great and bad music + good lyrics =****, and good music + bad lyrics = maybe good.

Discuss! ;)

[pate]

Personally I don't give a ****. I couldn't care less (to a reasonable extent) what is sung about. I find that good lyrics enhance a good album but if the music sucks the lyrics can't make it better


My feelings exactly.

[Apocalyptic Raids]

Personally I don't give a ****. I couldn't care less (to a reasonable extent) what is sung about. I find that good lyrics enhance a good album but if the music sucks the lyrics can't make it better
That's pretty much what I would have said.

[Prince Charming]

Recently I have been noticing more than usual the amount of value some people place on lyrics. While some lyrics are simply personal/descriptive/whatever, others very openly force the bands ideology upon you (like NSBM). My question is: Does anyone value music more when it lines up with their ideology and vice versa. Personally I don't give a ****. I couldn't care less (to a reasonable extent) what is sung about. I find that good lyrics enhance a good album but if the music sucks the lyrics can't make it better (so the music is important to me not lyrics). Lyrics do turn me off to some music though (see songs that have the chrous "Sieg Heil" over and over or "SATAN SATAN!!" lyrics). So for me good music + good lyrics =great and bad music + good lyrics =****, and good music + bad lyrics = maybe good.

Discuss! ;)

^^ I pretty much agree with every word of that.

Music comes far before lyrics. If the lyrics are quality, great.

[heavy metal kid]

But great lyrics are also an important factor in the music.

They made simple songs better, Nutshell by Alice in Chains is a good example.

But mostly, the music is what matters.

[Kage]

Kind of depends on what music you're talking about. Some bands could sing about whatever they want and I wouldn't care at all. But you take someone like Bruce Springsteen, and a song like The Ghost of Tom Joad (or any of his other ballad/folk tunes) and the lyrics make it twenty times more heartbreaking and good. A lot of the folk artists I listen to, in fact, are heavily lyrical and the great lyrics make the music very poetic, which is a huge factor in the genre.

Some lyrics are just intriguing, and thus make the music more intriguging. A good example of this would be Dredg.

[lionelhutz88]

For me the music comes first. If the lyrics are great though, it can take the song to a new level. I have no problem listening to good music with stupid lyrics, as long as they aren't too distracting.

[Zengeance]

I firstly go by music by the sound of it.... then if I realize that I can relate to the lyrics of the song. THEN it becomes a great song in my eyes.

[Invicta_Veritas]

Bad lyrics kill music for me. They have to be at least somewhat decent and/or or strike a personal chord with me. The music can be as great as it can be, but if it has no meaning or intelligence therein, then there is no point to it for me. To me, music isn't just about sound; it's also about the meaning or intent thereof, lyrics included.

But then again, I am also a lyricist and poet, so naturally I am going to place more emphasis on meaning and intent than other people.

[=-fukifiknow-=]

obviously music takes the cake. when you hear a song its not very often that you say well, the music sucks but the lyrics are incredible, this does happen from time to time, i could name many bands that put an overwhelming emphasis on lyrics. but the music is what drags a listener in. not the lyrics..






OH ****, I BOUGHT PINK FLOYDS "PULSE" DVD YESTERDAY AND HAVE YET TO WATCH IT...


/LEAVES

[Moses]

I hate country music, but sometimes if the lyrics can catch my ear it doesn't hurt so bad.

[Schyma]

Well if you're in a genre where you can clearly understand the lyrics like say Country, Folk, Rap, and some Rock bands I pay a great deal of attention to lyrics but you're partly right, good music does over weigh lyrics but it appears you're strictly speaking in terms of Metal. Certainly some genres carry a less emphasis on lyrics like say a good example would be Funk or Punk; it's true, lyrics couldn't mean less in these genres but to say lyrics don't matter as a whole is a bit heavy to say. I mean where would Woody Guthrie be without his great lyrics? I mean without his lyrics he's just boring acoustic guitar with a few chord changes but this is of course Folk. When you a trek into oh say Funk and you hear James Brown talking about being a "sex machine" sure, lyrics aren't going to mean a thing. Basically what I'm trying to say here is it's all about what kind of genre you're talking about.

[AA-12]

Lyrics are about 80% of it for me. Bad lyrics = no enjoyment.

[Werny]

The only times lyrics will turn me off a song is if they're repetitive or the syllables don't suit the tune.

That being said, I do find a lot of blues unlistenable because of the lyrics.

[elbassio]

I prefer listening to vocals and vocal work rather than lyrics, the melodic and rhyhmic quality means more than whatever it is being said...though as has been said if the lyrics are good, then great.

[the_uber_penguin]

The lyrics don't have to be anything special, but it helps a lot.

If I find the lyrics are something I disagree with ideologically then that turns me off the song as a whole, a lá New Frontier by Iron Maiden, and most mainstream rap (I like everything else by Iron Maiden, and most of the non-mainstream rap I've heard).

[Werny]

I prefer listening to vocals and vocal work rather than lyrics, the melodic and rhyhmic quality means more than whatever it is being said...though as has been said if the lyrics are good, then great.

Lyrics can affect the rhythmic quality in a lot of cases.

[Shadius]

Music is more important than lyrics in most of the musical genres I listen to, but good lyrics improve songs, usually a lot in my mind.

Lyrics are one of the reasons why I can't listen to a lot of pop music.

As has been said; music with a heavy emphasis on the vocals and therefore the words. Something stripped down, guitar and voice, for example, would need good lyrics to be considered a good song of that style. However, something with a lot going on, like a prog band or something might get away with just having weird lyrics behind all of the complex music.

If there's music I like and a good vocal melody the lyrics might not matter, if there's music thats boring or bad and the lyrics are amazing I might give it a listen but I doubt it'd become a favourite song or anything.

[Lord Abortion]

Again, because I'm a vocalist and lyricist, I place a high value on lyrics.

For example...AC/DC, I can't stand them because the lyrics suck, ditto Pantera, Black Label society and with Rage against the machine, partly the contemptable lyrical themes, and partly the horrible vocals are the main reason I heartily dislike them.

[elbassio]

Lyrics can affect the rhythmic quality in a lot of cases.

The voice doesn't have to be saying anything to be present though...thinking Mike Patton. Love the music of Fantomas, and theres no lyrics to a few of the things I've heard, but the voice is still there.
Lyrics to me don't have a great deal of importance, but having vocals adds a whole other layer to music, which is pretty much what I mean. And when the lyrics ARE saying something worthwhile, all the better.

[AA-12]

I <3 bands with amazing lyrics so much. Agalloch is playing right now on iTunes, and their writing just blows me away.

[Schyma]

^What exactly do they play? Do they scream their vocals and is the music really 'heavy'? If "no" is the answer to both of the questions in the previous sentence, you've gotten this man interested.

[AA-12]

What exactly do they play? Do they scream their vocals and is the music really 'heavy'? If "no" is the answer to both of the questions in the previous sentence you have got me interested.
They play like doom/folk/black metal. It's not heavy in a death metal sense, but in an overwhelming epic sense. There are a lot of harsh vocals, but they are done in a whisper-like way.

[Schyma]

Sounds interesting enough, any albums you recommend me checking out?

[AA-12]

Sounds interesting enough, any albums you recommend me checking out?
To be honest, everything they've done is fantastic. I'd say start with The Mantle and then Pale Folklore.

[Schyma]

Cool, I'll have to check them out. I'm not in touch with as much Metal these days as I should be (infact, hardly anything I listen to could qualify as Metal). Appreciate the advice. :)

[AA-12]

Hopefully you'll like them :)

[Ad Absurdum]

Well, I don't think that the ideology is conveyed just through the lyrics as ideology is manifest in every creative thing that the band does. For example, black metal would still retain a certain amount of it's non-comformist, misanthropic ideology even if it was played as an instrumental. Because of this, ideology is very important for me in music, because ideology is engrained into the music. The lyrics aren't particularly important for me, I can always read poetry if I think that lyrics suck. However, it is pretty nice if the lyrics compliment the ideology of the music, but embellish it rather than just the usual mundane BM/DM/whatever lyrics. But ultimately, music is more important than lyrics for me, but ideology comes hand in hand with both I think.

[ATC]

By saying ideology is ingrained in music by itself to that extent seems false to me. At best, music can create an atmosphere conducive to an ideology. A black metal instrumental can hardly convey misanthropy with just music. Music, to me, is a neutral entity. To say a tremolo picked pattern is ideological in any way is overestimating things.

I'm a songwriter so lyrics are very important for me. Its always music first with the lyrics serving to raise the song to the next level. If a band has lyrics or views that I don't agree with, I don't support that band by buying merchandise or their albums.

[AA-12]

A black metal instrumental can hardly convey misanthropy with just music.

No way, that's what makes most of it.

[Lord Abortion]

Listen to Han Som Reiste by Burzum, Varg's instrumentals are haunting and beautiful.

[ATC]

Listen to Han Som Reiste by Burzum, Varg's instrumentals are haunting and beautiful.

Don't disagree there. I disagree that it conveys misanthropy by itself though.

No way, that's what makes most of it.

The music itself conveying anything? You think that because that style is most commonly used to convey those sort of sentiments. By itself, the music does nothing. There's really no way of playing the C chord and have it say 'My veins run thick with the blood of my heathen ancestors'.
For example, someone that has no knowledge of metal or the ideologies of the composers would never think that on hearing any folk/neo-folk song. Sol Invictus make some great folk music but without the lyrics, you'd hardly think its a rant against Christianity. You only think ideology because you're predisposed to thinking that based on how things generally are.

[AA-12]

I meant the way it was all put together, but alright.

[IheartSP]

To me the actual meaning of the lyrics means absolutely nothing to me. I think the only difference really between good lyrics and bad lyrics is what sounds good to our ear. When I hear a vocal part it's not because of what the lyrics say but how the sounds fit together. I listen to music in English as if it is in another language, and with music in another language it's even easier.

Personally, I don't think lyrics matter becuase they are not music. Lyrics are literature and are simply a supplement to the song, adding absolutely no musical value. I enjoy good lyrics when I read them, not when I listen to the song. I'm more focused on the overall mood set by the melody and the song title. A true musician speaks through his music, not his words, then he is simply a poet.

[AA-12]

Technically music/lyrics are the same. Just notes on paper that you form into sound, like lyrics are words formed into sound.

[Werny]

The voice doesn't have to be saying anything to be present though...thinking Mike Patton. Love the music of Fantomas, and theres no lyrics to a few of the things I've heard, but the voice is still there.


You just made my point a whole lot more valid. What I was saying is that rhythmic syllables are important because it's musical and sounds good, not looks good when you read the lyrics. Mike Patton knows this, and thats why he just sings whatever syllables suit the moment. Rhyming lyrics, of course, are very good too.

[IheartSP]

Yes but notes on paper can actually be translated into sound while words cannot. Lyrics are simply words and lyrics alone have no sound. They only become music when paired with notes.

[AA-12]

True. Like I said though, I base like 80% of my taste on lyrics/themes when it comes to music, so i'm quite biased, haha.

[IheartSP]

True. Like I said though, I base like 80% of my taste on lyrics/themes when it comes to music, so i'm quite biased, haha.
How do you feel about instrumental music? I think that an instrumental song can convey just as much if not more meaning than a song with lyrics. Lyrics focus too much on specifics when music is really about the mood that these specifics try to set.

EDIT: 80%?! By saying that, you mean that you could have music that you hate more than any other song (think a terrible band with a song you absolutely despise) but give it perfect lyrics (think your favorite lyrics) and that song would be a B-. To me that makes little to no sense.

[AA-12]

How do you feel about instrumental music? I think that an instrumental song can convey just as much if not more meaning than a song with lyrics. Lyrics focus too much on specifics when music is really about the mood that these specifics try to set.
Ah, I love instrumentals actually.

[Werny]

How do you feel about instrumental music? I think that an instrumental song can convey just as much if not more meaning than a song with lyrics. Lyrics focus too much on specifics when music is really about the mood that these specifics try to set.

Instrumental music cannot convey specific ideas or meanings, only emotions. You can't have a song about a break up, for example, without lyrics that tell the listener that. That's what I love about instrumental music though, you're left to decide for yourself what the meaning is, it's much more personal.

And specific lyrics help a lot with mood.

[InDeep]

Ideology and Theme's do not really play a part in what I listen too, Ive learned to take some lyrics and music at face value.
I do just like the music and if I enjoy the lyrics too and connect with them, then thats a bonus to me. Regardless of genre.

[IheartSP]

Instrumental music cannot convey specific ideas or meanings, only emotions. You can't have a song about a break up, for example, without lyrics that tell the listener that. That's what I love about instrumental music though, you're left to decide for yourself what the meaning is, it's much more personal.

And specific lyrics help a lot with mood.
Yes but my point is it doesn't matter what a song is about as long as it makes you feel a certain way.

[Ad Absurdum]

By saying ideology is ingrained in music by itself to that extent seems false to me. At best, music can create an atmosphere conducive to an ideology. A black metal instrumental can hardly convey misanthropy with just music. Music, to me, is a neutral entity. To say a tremolo picked pattern is ideological in any way is overestimating things.Sorry, I typed a response earlier but I couldn't send it because the forum got hacked.

I was basically trying to say that the actual music is more subjective and therefore more open to an interpretation, it might not convey a specifically misanthropic ideology but I think that the slight ambiguity inherent in the compositions allows the music to convey a general message. It's up to us how we choose to interpret that. If I wrote a song in the black metal style with "love-song" lyrics, but the lyrics were difficult to distinguish then most people would assume that the song carried the ideology of misanthropy etc. So perhaps it's not possible to convey a specific theme within the music (perhaps it is, I can't make objective statements about subjective art form) but if we write music with our ideology in mind then it will be conveyed in the music we write and how we play it, whether or not the lyrics agree with it. I see music as the same as all art forms, a creative expression of ideas rather than trying to write a nice rhyme or paint a pretty picture.

I know it seems a bit ridiculous, but you don't have to agree with me :) I generally do find that I use the music as a starting point for the ideology though.

[Happy]

When I hear a song that's over the top about Satanism and goes on about God being a c*nt or whatever, I think "These lyrics are retarded" Sometimes it can turn me off of that song, but I'll try other songs by that band and if the music's good, I'll try to ignore the lyrics.

[Synthetical]

I just consider lyrics another instrument. If I really like a song I'll look up and read its lyrics, and I'll like the song better if its something I agree with (or understand...). Also depends on how its sung too...if I don't like the sound of the singer it just pretty much ruins the song for me. Songs lyrics I don't agree with I won't really give the band a chance.

[sr800bkBassist]

depends how i feel.
a good example of this is Defiance Ohio's 2 full-lengths.

the first one, "Share What Ya Got" is a very personal album. it has 3 songs on there that embody their very left-wing, environmentalist, city-hating views, but mostly it's powerful, emotionally driven songs whether they are angry, sad, happy, sentimental, it's all very emotional.

their second album, "The Great Depression", is the opposite. they have a select few emotionally driven songs, but most of it is about their frustration with apathy, globalization, etc. very focused on politcal and social subjects.

if i'm in the mood for politics and social commentary, i'll listen to the second CD. if i'm in the mood for some personal music, i'll listen to the first. i like both, it all depends on how i feel at the moment.

[sr800bkBassist]

Instrumental music cannot convey specific ideas or meanings, only emotions. You can't have a song about a break up, for example, without lyrics that tell the listener that. That's what I love about instrumental music though, you're left to decide for yourself what the meaning is, it's much more personal.

And specific lyrics help a lot with mood.
exactly how i feel about instrumental music.
it creates a feeling and an atmosphere, but it's left to you to decide what causes that feeling.

[Manok]

if the idology is going to be there just because the band wishes to be contraversial, screw it (ie SOAD) however, sometimes i like the bands music so much i can put aside the stupid lyrics and listen to the way the voice and music work together.

[Jude]

I can ignore lyrics that have an opposing idealogy to mine if the music is good enough...however, the only bands I listen to that have that kind of lyrics are the occasional left wing ones that rant against religion.

Oh and don't forget Immortal Technique. The dude believes the US government blew up the WTC, among other things.

I guess there's no Republican rock bands though so I don't run into political lyrics I disagree with very much.

[Moses]

Alot of people believe that the US gov. blew up the WTC.

Lyrics can affect the rhythmic quality in a lot of cases.
Usually Lyrics are written around the rhythm.

Anyway, I can connect with lyrics when I'm reading them, but unless it's the right genre I can't do it while only listening. I pay too much attention to the sound. If I read lyrics to a song I've never heard and absolutely fall in love with them, I can listen to the song and despise the singer's voice and be turned off by bad composition. I can also listen to the song, pay minimal attention to the lyrics, and love the instrumental parts and vocals and everything is pleasing to the ear, bad lyrics don't mess that up for me unless I'm reading them.

When I write music, I spend much more time on the music than the lyrics.

[A Spoonful Supreme]

Personally, I like my music to have something to say, lyrically and stylistically. Even if what they say is simple at least it could matter. None of this riding the dragon stuff.

[Jude]

Alot of people believe that the US gov. blew up the WTC.


Yeah but that doesn't make the belief any less ridiculous.


When I write music, I spend much more time on the music than the lyrics.
Yup. Only very bad or awkward lyrics can make me focus more on them. Except when I'm listening to hip hop of course.