Another Quick Theory Question

[Invicta_Veritas]

So I wrote this song. Well, by looking at the key signature, it could be either in Eb Major or C minor. Which one is it?

Before you answer too quickly, the root of most of the riffing in it is C, so naturally we could assume the song is in C minor.

But the rythm under the solo goes like this----Ab (down to) G (down to) F (back up to) G (and then back up to Ab and start over)........so Ab appears to be the leading tone of that riff, right? So am I still playing in the key of C minor (or Eb Major, whichever your answer to the previous question is)?

If you get what I'm saying, awesome. Please help.

[Xianne]

just call it C Minor, most people would know that Eb Major is the same thing and if the C Minor note seems tonal then why not. The little key change (when you play Ab) before the solo is called transposition and even though it is outside the scale it doesn't change the key of the whole song. You'd be playing an Alien note (a note outside of the scale).

[Invicta_Veritas]

well, the Ab is actually in the scale, my question was that since that riff changes the tonic note from C to Ab, does it change anything...the notes played in the riff are all still in the key of C minor......

[Xianne]

Ab isn't in the C Minor scale or Eb Major:
C D Eb F G A B
Eb Major scale:
Eb F G A B C D

How long is the riff? If it's long enough to be called a section, then you could say the key changes during that section ( i dont know what scale though). Sorry if that doesnt answer your question.

[Invicta_Veritas]

E flat Major: 3 flats---Bb, Eb, Ab
C minor: Same.....C D Eb F G Ab Bb (WHWWHW---Natural Minor Scale pattern).

/////Looking at theory text now

The riff is 16 bars I believe.....I may double it for a longer solo.

[Xianne]

you're right about E flat major, i made a big mistake (i just assumed that it was the same as C Minor) but yeah the C Natural Minor scale does have Ab (i thought you were talking about C Minor--with a third flat only). The whole song would still be called C minor, however, there is a scale where Ab is tonic, but I don't know the name of it, so you could say the Solo has a key change.

[Trigger_003]

Wai-wai-waaaiiit.

Eb maj has the key signature of Bb, Eb, Ab, as Behemoth said.

C natural minor is the same.

C minor (which always implies C harmonic minor) also has an Ab (sorry Xianne). In an harmonic minor scale, the scale is basically the same as the natural minor, but with the 7th degree sharpened. That 7th degree is the Bb, not the Ab:
C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb
1,2, 3,4,5, 6, 7

Therefore the scale is now C D Eb F G Ab B (Bb sharpened a semitone is B)

So if you're using Bs in your melody as opposed to Bbs, you can say that you're in Cminor.
That work?

[halfdeadhippo]

...or you could just say that you're in whichever key you think you're in for the majority of the piece, and anything else is just a modulation. (assuming I that I'm correct in understanding the concept of modulations to be implied, temporary key changes)

edit: I was always under the impression that unless otherwise stated, simply saying "C minor" implied the natural minor.

[Invicta_Veritas]

...or you could just say that you're in whichever key you think you're in for the majority of the piece, and anything else is just a modulation. (assuming I that I'm correct in understanding the concept of modulations to be implied, temporary key changes)

edit: I was always under the impression that unless otherwise stated, simply saying "C minor" implied the natural minor.

That was always my assumption as well.

I suppose the entire song is in C Minor (Natural), then, no? All I do is change the tonic note for a few bars, but the notes are all of the same key.........I guess I could maybe just be playing in a different mode of the C minor scale, correct? I mean, that riff just begins on a different note of the scale, so am I not correct in assuming that there is a mode directly associated with that starting point of the scale?

If that is the theory, then the whole song is in C Minor, I just do a mode change for that riff......

[Trigger_003]

Btw, when we're talking about relative minor, or being in a minor key, the key signature remains the same. However, whenever we write a note of the 7th degree of the scale, we need to put an "accidental" next to it (a sharp, flat, or natural sign directly next to the specific note), raising it a step, or semitone.
So if the key signature states that the 7th degree should be a flat, we need to change that by writing a natural sign next to it. If the key signature says the note should be natural, we put a # next to it each time it occurs within the piece.
THEN it is in the minor key. Otherwise it's in natural minor.

For future, because of what I've just said, try not to call it C minor if you really mean C natural minor, because that means an entirely different thing and you'll confuse people.
Modes also change between the two; modes of the harmonic minor are dorian b2 b5, ionian augmented, lydian minor, mixolydian b6 b9, aeolian harmonic, superlocrian diminished and hypoionian; totally different to modes of the major scale.

Anyway, seeing that natural minor is a mode of the major scale itself (aeolian), you could, realistically, call it a mode of the Eb major scale.

For now I'd say that is was in C Aeolian provided that you're correct in assuming that your solo is in that... but when you talk of your "rhythm riff" under the solo are you talking about chords or just solitary notes there? Also, this is what I think you mean but I'm just making sure... you're saying that the rhythm section changes notes specifically for the solo, but you know that the rest of the piece is in C Aeolian, correct? If so, yeah it's in C Aeolian, possibly undergoing something like a false/transistory modulation for a few bars during the solo, then returning to C Aeolian. But seeing as you're still soloing in C natural minor anyway, it shouldn't matter. Anyway, for the most part you can say that the piece is in C Aeolian.

[Invicta_Veritas]

The song is in C natural Minor. The rythm meant to be under the solo has the same notes, but the tonic note of that riff is Ab instead of C. I haven't written the actual solo yet because I've been trying to figure out what scale/mode to play in over that riff.

That riff has no notes that are outside of C Natural Minor. I was just wondering if it made a difference that the chord progression started with Ab instead of all the way back down to C.

[Camel42]

It is either F minor with the rhythm in aeolian and riffing in phygrian; or C minor with the rhythm in Dorian.

If the song sounds major then it is in C minor because Ab is your bass note, and a major note; with C filling in the rest of the chord.

If the song sounds minor ithen ts in F minor since the minor in the F would be implied by the tonal center; the chord of F minor is being filled in by Ab and C

[Camel42]

It is either F minor with the rhythm in aeolian and riffing in phygrian; or C minor with the rhythm in Dorian.

[Camel42]

Btw, when we're talking about relative minor, or being in a minor key, the key signature remains the same. However, whenever we write a note of the 7th degree of the scale, we need to put an "accidental" next to it (a sharp, flat, or natural sign directly next to the specific note), raising it a step, or semitone.
So if the key signature states that the 7th degree should be a flat, we need to change that by writing a natural sign next to it. If the key signature says the note should be natural, we put a # next to it each time it occurs within the piece.
THEN it is in the minor key. Otherwise it's in natural minor.

For future, because of what I've just said, try not to call it C minor if you really mean C natural minor, because that means an entirely different thing and you'll confuse people.
Modes also change between the two; modes of the harmonic minor are dorian b2 b5, ionian augmented, lydian minor, mixolydian b6 b9, aeolian harmonic, superlocrian diminished and hypoionian; totally different to modes of the major scale.

Anyway, seeing that natural minor is a mode of the major scale itself (aeolian), you could, realistically, call it a mode of the Eb major scale.

For now I'd say that is was in C Aeolian provided that you're correct in assuming that your solo is in that... but when you talk of your "rhythm riff" under the solo are you talking about chords or just solitary notes there? Also, this is what I think you mean but I'm just making sure... you're saying that the rhythm section changes notes specifically for the solo, but you know that the rest of the piece is in C Aeolian, correct? If so, yeah it's in C Aeolian, possibly undergoing something like a false/transistory modulation for a few bars during the solo, then returning to C Aeolian. But seeing as you're still soloing in C natural minor anyway, it shouldn't matter. Anyway, for the most part you can say that the piece is in C Aeolian.

What is a good resource for learning modes outside of the majorscale? For example modes in harmonic and melodic minor.