Click Tracks

[AkeJay02]

My friend just got out of college and is working at a recording studio. However, his boss has told him that he doesn't like using click tracks. Unfortunately, the guy didn't elaborate.

I like click tracks, due to the fact that they keep things perfectly accurate. But what are the cons/disadvantages to using them?

[Jezen]

According to some, music doesn't flow as it should when a click is used. They don't want a precise, mechanical time.

[MXicanDrummer]

If things sound to accurate it can take out of the real feel of the song. I like recording a scratch track with the whole band playing, then using that to listen to when you record each instrument seperately.

[MXicanDrummer]

If things sound to accurate it can take out of the real feel of the song. I like recording a scratch track with the whole band playing, then using that to listen to when you record each instrument seperately.

[AkeJay02]

I guess from a drummer's perspective, it would sound way better. However, I can't see anything wrong with having something be too accurate. Also, think of it from others' perspectives. For example, I, as a guitarist, like to use echoes. These can only be used if everything is accurate and at a certain tempo.

[Ethan.]

I don't see a problem with using a click track either. I don't use one, but I don't think it is a bad tool.

If things sound to accurate it can take out of the real feel of the song. I like recording a scratch track with the whole band playing, then using that to listen to when you record each instrument seperately.
That's the way I do it too.

[LittlePound]

some of the songs loose natural feel when played with a click, they sound too perfect if you will. Sometimes the element of error sounds better in a song. My way around this, get a drummer with good time. That way, it doesn't have to be as accurate as a click, but you'll still stay in time pretty much. I mean, if you have a drummer who holds good time, when he feels it's necesary to let it sway then he can, you can't do that with a click....so as long as you're good at keeping time your band has nothing to worry about...that is unless the sound guy requires you to work with a click.

[crazyguy832]

Some songs work well with a click, others don't. Simple as that.

I can't really imagine death metal being played without a click, honestly, but that's just me.

:p

[AkeJay02]

I guess I understand the concept of not wanting everything to be perfectly lined up. I guess maybe just having the drummer play to a click might be a little better, that way, at least he's on time. Then, the guitars can be a little sloppy, for lack of a better term, as can the vocals.

Also, I believe in click tracks because I like to use echoes and things like that. The only way to keep the echoes lined up with the music is to have a synched tempo, which can only be perfectly achieved with a click track. Does anyone know what I'm saying. It's kind of hard to explain.

[othankheavenfor311]

There is a great quote by Danny Carey on this topic:

"It is painful to hear myself speeding up and slowing down at times. But then when once the songs are put togther you realize, 'That's ok. It Breathes.' It's like the Beatles Tunes speed up and slow down, but it gives the music life. It sounds real and organic. And thats a rare thing in music these days."
-Danny Carey

I couldnt agree more. With a click track there is no room for the music to bend and flex in order for it to become more natural sounding with more energy. The click track spoils that element that is present in great music, the natural feel.

[DxRocker]

I seem to recall a thread not to long ago where I got totally bashed by saying that the good old chill music from the 60's - 70's were recorded without a click and that there is nothing wrong with those songs, even though some of them end up being 20 bpm faster then they started at.

I agree whole hearthly with that Carrey statement.
Music has to breath. Although, there are those styles where (these days) a click track is absolutly necissary.

From the top of my mind, hip-hop is one of them. Why? Because a lot of that music is done through loops with beat boxes. Those things have perfect time. If you play in a hip hop band that uses real instruments, you just have to be able to reproduce that perfect boomy feel in order to "compete" with what it is out there these days.

Personnaly, I will NEVER use a click track to record a good nice sexy blues or something like that. Music like that has to breath, it's as simple as that.
If it is to "perfect", it ain't human anymore. I like the "human" touch to music. And the "human touch" is translated through emotion and "imperfectness" (lol @ that word).

I guess it all depends on the music being played mostly.

For instance, I really really believe that the music of "The Police" just wouldn't be the same if it was played to a click.
While the speeding/slowing is probably not on purpose, it adds to the uniqueness of the music imo. As long as it is within proportion (as in, only clear if you really start counting the music and comparing it with a click) then it is no problem at all.

Just look around you. Do you know ANYBODY who ever complained about The Beatles, The Who, Jimi Hendrix, The Police, Led Zeppelin etc for not playing with perfect time?

Then try to realise how old that music is and how popular it still is today, in a period in time where click tracks are represented as being an absolute "must" for anybody recording a record. It that statement is true... then how come the Beatles etc are just as popular as they were before - even with people who weren't born yet when those bands still existed?

Conclusion:
While click tracks definatly have their uses and while a metronome should be included in the gear of every drummer for practice (at least), they certainly are very overrated.

[xeonman9000]

Editing is easier with a click as everything lines up pretty much where it should.

[DxRocker]

^true, but I'm against editing my music :)

It will be burned on cd like I have layed it down. Principles.
Ridiculous to some, important to others.

To be perfectly honest, I don't have much respect for bands who edit out their "mistakes" and "imperfections" with their high-tech bs.

If you can't lay it down properly, then practice some more until you can is what I say.

[Obelisk]

Dx - I have to lay down my 2 cents on your comments, please don't take as a personal attack, I'm just adding to the thread, using you comments as a platform.

My first reaction was regarding "hi-tech bs". Tell me you've never used used a compressor? An EQ? A Gate? I respect where you are coming from, 100%. But when the reality sets in that I want my $2000 recording to stand up against major label recordings with huge budgets, you have to introduce some "hi-tech bs", besides, most major recordings are all smoke and mirrors anyways. I'm afraid we've all but completly lost the art of recording. Damn digital.

As far as edits on a recording, ya I hate the idea. But when you are paying by the hour at a studio, edits can be a very good friend. You play an almost perfect take - it's got the "magic" you are looking for, but in the last bar, you fan on a snare, do you scrap the magic and redo the whole track, or start again from the last chorus and play out the rest of the song and edit together in mixing. Also, consider "feel". If you lay down 3 takes of a song, all of which could be technically perfect, you may find that one part of a song from one take could just feel better, with the click - it's easy to "cut and paste" that better part in. Maybe the fill you did was better on one of the takes... etc., etc....

Think of filmmakers only allowing actors to do one take of each shot. Maybe they got thier lines right, but by allowing multiple takes, gives the director the ability to pick which one will work best for the scene.

I've done recordings with a click and without. Bottom line is that at the end of the day, I'm happier with the ones I've done with the click, and as I start new projects, (unless doing the whole thing live off the floor), I pretty much demand it. Am I against the push and pull of the "breathing"? - no. Am I a chitie drummer who can't keep time ? - no. Do I prefer not to spend my hard earned money and time on something that I will cringe at every time I hear it?, you bet you bottom. Should I just practice more so I can play perfectly, as Dx suggests? - Yes, and I do. But everybody knows, as soon as that red light gleams, it's a different story than the countless hours I've got at the rehesal space to hone the track. Although I'm getting a lot more relaxed in the studio, you still feel the pressure of playing perfectly for the recording, this can effect your playing greatly.

I give an example of where a click has come in handy, but not to fix any mistakes. On a recent recording, we laid down 9 tracks. Spent 2 days on the drums (which was the most expensive part, had to lock out the room for the 2 days). After we got back some rough mixes, we weren't happy with the flow of one song. It's structure just didn't work. Did we go back in to the studio to re-track? Well, all the parts we wanted were there, just not in the right order. Cut and paste verses / chorus', bulid the drum track to the structure we wanted, then re-do guitars. Saved us from srapping the tune, as we didn't have the $$ to pay for more drum tracking. Is this morally wrong? I think so. Is the listener going to be able to tell? No. Excuse my capitalist approach, but we recorded this album for other's to enjoy (and buy - lol), as a listener, you won't know the difference - all you will know is that the song sounds good (better - imo), compared to what it was like before the edits. Another thing I have to consider, is that a large majority of people listening to the tunes, aren't musicians, and will probably only focus on lyrics / melody lines. It's only picky bastids like myself who will know the difference.

Quoting Dx here...

"To be perfectly honest, I don't have much respect for bands who edit out their "mistakes" and "imperfections" with their high-tech bs."

I'm sorry you feel this way. Overdubbing is "hi-tech bs" - are you against it as well?

[DxRocker]

Hey dude.
No offence taken. You don't have to agree with me, we are all just sharing opinions here. It's a subject where you can't be wrong OR right in my opinion any way.

Mostly, I agree though. I understand where you are coming from.
I will however reply to a few points you made.

- I record with a band and we are not pleased with the structure of a certain song.

Well... First of all, when I go to record in a studio, we have everything ready, and we are by default pleased with everything. We will have recorded all of them in an amateuristic way before during rehearsels/gigs, even with only a cassette deck in the middle of the room. Not quite the same, sure, but enough to know what the overall feel/structure of the song is. IF we would encounter something like that (not being pleased after hearing it through the studio monitors), we will either not put it on the album or redo the whole thing. Like said, that's prinicples, our principles. Doesn't have to be yours.

Tell me you've never used used a compressor? An EQ? A Gate?
Ow yes, off course. But that is not really what I meant. What I mean with that high-tech bs, was more the "abuse" of it in my eyes. Stuff like "that snare didn't land right in there on the '4'... let's copy paste it". That, to me, is entirely different from putting a delay on it.

it's got the "magic" you are looking for, but in the last bar, you fan on a snare, do you scrap the magic and redo the whole track
To tell you the truth: yes. And I have done this in the past as well.

Although I'm getting a lot more relaxed in the studio, you still feel the pressure of playing perfectly for the recording, this can effect your playing greatly

That is why I simplify my playing in the studio. Live, I go nuts like a mofo when I can handle it and when the moment is right off course, some imperfections live don't matter all that much IMO. But you know... Most of the time, that 32nd note fill around the times can be replaced just as good by a simple cymbal hit. If you know of yourself that chances are big that you would screw up that "world-fill", don't do it. That's what I say.

Hence why I always say: if you are in the studio, give only 60%-70% of yourself. That's where you sound best. At +90%, you start to drop notes here and there and you just don't sound "all that good" at that point.

Overdubbing is "hi-tech bs" - are you against it as well?
I have done a punk album some years ago - without click. I don't have it online anymore, wich is a shame, it would be a great example here.
What we did: record a master track with the drums in a soundproof room (like any semi pro studio or better), using headphones. Afterwards, the other musicians redid there tracks, playing along with the master track. My drums from those mastertracks were used to mix them with the new tracks of the other musicians and that is what got burned on cd. One of our guitarists played 3 different parts over it - something we could never ever ever bring live without having 4 guitar players on stage. Nothing wrong with those songs. No editing, nothing. My drum track acted like their metronome.

I'ld like to restate here as well that I will NEVER advice AGAINST metronomes. Off course not. I only say that in some cases, they are overrated. They are not that much of a "must" as lots of people say they are. They are however a "must have" for every drummer - for practice at the very least.

[Mitch2oo6]

Hence why I always say: if you are in the studio, give only 60%-70% of yourself. That's where you sound best. At +90%, you start to drop notes here and there and you just don't sound "all that good" at that point.

You can still give 100% effort, and sound good. When you start dropping notes and things, that's when your pushing yourself too far, over 100%, to extents where you can't control what your playing all that well. Just my opinion.

[DxRocker]

^That's another way of putting it.

Basicly, what I was saying, is that the parts I play in studio's, are parts with wich I feel 110% comfortable. Parts where I can focus on the sound of the pattern instead of the pattern itself.

[Mitch2oo6]

Exactly. Nailing big flashly solo's in a studio doesnt give the same effect as doing it live. Not that Ive done it in a studio, only live. Its such a great rush though.

[MNdrummer21]

I seem to recall a thread not to long ago where I got totally bashed by saying that the good old chill music from the 60's - 70's were recorded without a click and that there is nothing wrong with those songs, even though some of them end up being 20 bpm faster then they started at.

I agree whole hearthly with that Carrey statement.
Music has to breath. Although, there are those styles where (these days) a click track is absolutly necissary.

From the top of my mind, hip-hop is one of them. Why? Because a lot of that music is done through loops with beat boxes. Those things have perfect time. If you play in a hip hop band that uses real instruments, you just have to be able to reproduce that perfect boomy feel in order to "compete" with what it is out there these days.

Personnaly, I will NEVER use a click track to record a good nice sexy blues or something like that. Music like that has to breath, it's as simple as that.
If it is to "perfect", it ain't human anymore. I like the "human" touch to music. And the "human touch" is translated through emotion and "imperfectness" (lol @ that word).

I guess it all depends on the music being played mostly.

For instance, I really really believe that the music of "The Police" just wouldn't be the same if it was played to a click.
While the speeding/slowing is probably not on purpose, it adds to the uniqueness of the music imo. As long as it is within proportion (as in, only clear if you really start counting the music and comparing it with a click) then it is no problem at all.

Just look around you. Do you know ANYBODY who ever complained about The Beatles, The Who, Jimi Hendrix, The Police, Led Zeppelin etc for not playing with perfect time?

Then try to realise how old that music is and how popular it still is today, in a period in time where click tracks are represented as being an absolute "must" for anybody recording a record. It that statement is true... then how come the Beatles etc are just as popular as they were before - even with people who weren't born yet when those bands still existed?

Conclusion:
While click tracks definatly have their uses and while a metronome should be included in the gear of every drummer for practice (at least), they certainly are very overrated.

Dude I completely agree with what you just said. I don't use a click when I record in my home but if I were to do a session I would use the click if the artist wanted it.

[isp_of_doom]

There is a great quote by Danny Carey on this topic:

"It is painful to hear myself speeding up and slowing down at times. But then when once the songs are put togther you realize, 'That's ok. It Breathes.' It's like the Beatles Tunes speed up and slow down, but it gives the music life. It sounds real and organic. And thats a rare thing in music these days."
-Danny Carey

You beat me to it.. thats what I was going to say.

I'm all for a click track during practicing, but I like to think of a recording as a performance.
There are 3 types of drummers I can think of with regards to recording:

1) The drummer who can't play to a click (probably never has). He* looses time, gets confused, skips a beat, stops for a bar, starts again, forgets what he was doing, etc. I had to record a song with someone like this, of course, it didn't work, to the click. So in the end I took out the click, and luckily he did pretty well. No real time issues. Then again, with some, they cant keep a simple groove steady

2) The drummer who can play to the click. This guy* is a machine. Literally. Sticks perfectly to the click, playing directly on top of it, and it sounds shite. It may as well be a simple loop created in Logic.

3) The drummer who can use the click. This guy* doesn't so much see the click as a point on a measuring instrument, as a continually evolving cycle or Rule that can either be followed, bent, or broken (like the matrix). He crafts the groove around this loose guide (and thats all it is) and in the end he has created what no machine could ever do.


Thats the way that I see it.

[Dunmore]

^^^ Good Post

Thats exactly how i use a click, slide in and out, even by just 16ths but when important parts (chorus solos ect) come im right back on but then i will slide again but still keeping inside the "Boundaries" of the click