WMD's Found In Iraq. Sorry left wingers.

[The Real El Capitano]

Well, it looks like the the rug has been pulled out from under the democrats and almost the entire left, because WMD's have been found in Iraq, and it appears they were found years earlier than this report was released. Now the main point for most Bush-Basher's, the whole,"OMG HE LIED THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OMGZZZ!!!11!",is now factually incorrect. So all you left wing/democrats who LOVED that reason,and were so positive Busg lied,here's a fork, start eating your words.

Here's the story.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

[SubtleDagger]

The weapons are thought to be manufactured before 1991 so they would not be proof of an ongoing WMD program in the 1990s. But they do show that Saddam Hussein was lying when he said all weapons had been destroyed, and it shows that years of on-again, off-again weapons inspections did not uncover these munitions.

Hoekstra said the report, completed in April but only declassified now, shows that "there is still a lot about Iraq that we don't fully understand."

Asked why the Bush administration, if it had known about the information since April or earlier, didn't advertise it, Hoekstra conjectured that the president has been forward-looking and concentrating on the development of a secure government in Iraq.

Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.

"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."
This isn't really taking much away from left-wingers.

[The Real El Capitano]

But the point is that they were there,and Saddam told U.N. weapons inspectors that he had destroyed all of them. But yea I already heard Colmes trying to twist it to make it look like Bush was still lying. I know they'll just spin it to make it look like they weren't complete fools. But still.

[Against Miik!]

Bush is still a complete fool. And he played us for fools. The fact that he found any weapons at all is luck. And it still shows no proof of a continued WMD program, which Bush accused Saddam of having. So what. Saddam lied. That still doesn't prove that he was a threat. And no we are so caught up in Iraq, there are at least 3 other even greater threats that have snuck up on us. One of these threats is going to launch a missle God knows where. Thanks a lot George.

Does anybody remember how this whole thing actually started? We went into Iraq because Bush claimed Saddam had ties to al Qaeda. That was wrong. When he realized that this was wrong he moved onto WMDs. No WMDs were found. So now all of a sudden we are liberating the Iraqi people. So which one is it? Nobody knows. I guess whichever one suits him best at the moment.

And lets not forget that the link comes from Fox News. The same story released by the BBC will probably be about Bush choking on a piece of cake or something. The truth at least.

[SubtleDagger]

Um, of course he was still lying. The weapons found do not compare to the claims made by our government for going to war.

They also weren't in useable conditions and from 1991, suggesting that they were either already partially destroyed or just scrapped and not in use.

If the cabinet knew about this and did not even mention it when war motives were questioned, that obviously suggest that it is not truly relevant evidence of the prominent chemical weapons production the US was suggesting at the time.
And lets not forget that the link comes from Fox News. The same story released by the BBC will probably be about Bush choking on a piece of cake or something. The truth at least.
As soon as I saw "Rick Santorum" I pretty much gave up on it being a valid find.

[The Real El Capitano]

If you're one of the people that think that the people didn't want to be liberated and that life was better under Saddam's regime, please, save it.Saddam killed and estimated 5 million people during his tenure, and tortured countless others during his time. I can't remember the name, but right after he was caught the History Channel did a special on his tortue methods and interviewed victims, where they described the unthinkable horrors the the endured,so, I think that was grounds enough for going in.j And ust because the article is from Fox news, doesn't mean it didn't happen.Don't try attacking the credibility or bias of a site in order to justify your point.


Edit: I believe the name was Horror's of Saddam.

Double Edit: This post wasn't to you Subtle.
And I'm sorry I made this thread when I would soon go to bed, but I did, so I bid you gentlemen fairwell for the night, and I will return tomorrow.

[BassRevelation1029]

Well, it looks like the the rug has been pulled out from under the democrats and almost the entire left, because WMD's have been found in Iraq]
no **** chemical weapons were found-the U.S sold them to Iraq in their conflict with Iran. That wasnt the issue.
-Bush claimed Saddam was a threat, tied to al-qaeda. False
-The intelligence claimed Iraq received yellowcake (uranium substance) from Niger. That was false
-Bush claimed the Iraqis needed freedom from a tyrannical dictator. Why doesnt Sudan then? Why couldnt the Iraqi's do something about their own freedom if they wanted it?

Now the fools at the head of the government are stuck in that mess, killing civilians and trying to piece together 3 groups of people who absolutely despise each other greatly. Mistake to enter Iraq? I think so

edit: I suggest you and other war supporters watch the frontline episode which covered the intelligence. You'll see it was completely made up.

[SubtleDagger]

If you're one of the people that think that the people didn't want to be liberated and that life was better under Saddam's regime, please, save it.Saddam killed and estimated 5 million people during his tenure, and just because the article is from Fox news, doesn't mean it didn't happen.Don't try attacking the credibility or bias of a site in order to justify your point.
Regardless of Fox News, the story is obviously not relevant given the low credibility of the weapons found and the initial motives for war with Iraq.

[Against Miik!]

If you're one of the people that think that the people didn't want to be liberated and that life was better under Saddam's regime, please, save it.Saddam killed and estimated 5 million people during his tenure, and just because the article is from Fox news, doesn't mean it didn't happen.Don't try attacking the credibility or bias of a site in order to justify your point.

I'm not saying the idea of a free Iraq is a bad thing. However, Bush has done every possible thing a person can do to fucck it up. He has had a personal vendetta against Saddam since before 9/11. You can tell how childish he is because he's still into the whole good guy/bad guy thing. So he went into Iraq disguising war mongering as a peaceful liberation. When the administration finally wised up and realized we have no business being there. Notice, when the war first began, there was very little mention of a free Iraq. This may be because they never planned on it, or they didn't have a plan. Well, we know they don't have a plan. Thats very apparent. Iraq is just as dangerous now as it was under Saddam. The infrastructre is a mess. We have done nothing to help these people.

And if you got this story from the NRA newsletter or some immigrant kid's 3rd grade report, I would attack the source. You cannot take seriously a network which houses the likes of Bill OReily and Sean Hannity.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

If you're one of the people that think that the people didn't want to be liberated and that life was better under Saddam's regime, please, save it.Saddam killed and estimated 5 million people during his tenure, and tortured countless others during his time. I can't remember the name, but right after he was caught the History Channel did a special on his tortue methods and interviewed victims, where they described the unthinkable horrors the the endured,so, I think that was grounds enough for going in.j And ust because the article is from Fox news, doesn't mean it didn't happen.Don't try attacking the credibility or bias of a site in order to justify your point.

Are you in Iraq right now? No. Your in your nice, cozy house, where for the moment you're safe and secure. What's going on in Iraq (without Saddam) right now? Well, what we know is that warfare is running rampant, civilians and soldiers alike are getting bombed and killed everyday, and the whole prospect of the future of the war is very uncertain, and that's glossing over the poverty and starvation issues. And again, that's all we know. What makes you so certain torture has stopped as a result of the expulsion of Saddam? Civilian life in Iraq is far less stable now than it was about 6 years ago, regardless of Saddam and his methods.

[griftadan]

meh, i don't even care at this point.

[PerpetualBurn]

It was represented to the public by Tony Blair that Saddam could launch missiles to hit England in 45 minutes. It's going to take something revolutionary to make me forgive that misinformation.

[PerpetualBurn]

Nobody except a group of George Galloway fans claim that Saddam was anything other than a vicious dictator.

Actually Galloway was screaming and protesting against Saddam back when he was fighting Iran and we were supplying him with weapons. And, if you saw him on Questiontime last week, he loves to tell people this.

[PerpetualBurn]

He's been pretty anti-Saddam all along, it's just that he then goes off the rails by accusing every politician who didn't register their protest with him back then of being pro-Kurdish genocide.

[coheneran]

Really? His positions are so incoherent on the whole that I lose track. :-/ I was just using him as an example of someone who's gone so far off the scale of being an idiot that they actually start defending Saddam (which I'm sure he has done, although I may be thinking of someone else from Respect).

I thought the only reason he didn't want to go to war was that he bought a ton of oil off Saddam, which is pretty much the same reason why Reagan didn't want to go to war with Iraq back in the mid-80's.

[PerpetualBurn]

There's absolutely no established link between Galloway and Saddam.

Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4553601.stm#

There's a video there. I'm sure you used to be able to get the entire audio, which was a great listen, but I can't find it.

[coheneran]

I would love to read the transcript of that interrogation.

[PerpetualBurn]

It was great. Despite being against him on most domestic things, the way in which he handled it was great. He basically said that if they were going to throw such ridiculous aspersions at him that they would have to try him for purjory.

The links they had were tenuous at best and they claimed that he owned several companies which he actually has no affiliation with.

[PerpetualBurn]

Yep, he's not a good politician in that I rarely agree with him, but his style of debate in just great to watch. He was put up against the Senate to be made to look a fool, and he came out of it having put them to shame.

[coheneran]

Wow, that was a good read. I feel slightly more aligned with George Galloway now, though it'll take a revolution to get me to forgive his going on Big Brother.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

That was an interesting transcript.

[coheneran]

I joined the army when high school was through
I didn't know what else to do
Thought I'd take care of that traveling jones
Then maybe take out some student loans

They sent me away to the land of the dead
Where I didn't know a word that they said
I got shot at a lot, I was nearly toast
But it's the ones that I killed that hurts the most

Most of the time I didn't know what was going on
The rest of the time I knew there was something going wrong
Every reason we were there turned out to be a lie
I thought of that each time I saw another person die

I was supposed to stay for a year, they kept me for four
By the time I got back home no one knew me anymore
Of the man I once was there didn't seem to be a trace
And when I looked me in the mirror I didn't recognize my face

I wasn't home too long before the time that I fell ill
It was like the air was thick as mud and I ached enough to kill
I didn't know I'd been fighting in a nuclear war
DU was in my blood and I was knocking on death's door

I can't tell you how it felt to be betrayed at every turn
Like the earth was spinning backwards, like my heart began to burn
Like I had to do something while I still had the strength to stand
While I still could run with a machine gun in my hand

I thought of Halliburton and the military brass
And the things they get away with all for their ruling class
But I'm not a pawn and I can't just let it be
And if I'm gonna die, I'm gonna take some of them ****ers with me

I'll spare you the details, I did what I had to do
There's a boardroom blown to hell and soon I will be, too
You can say I lost it, you can say that I'm insane
But may no one ever say that my death was in vain

I joined the army when high school was through
I didn't know what else to do

[PerpetualBurn]

If there's one thing that makes lyrics/poetry good it's immediately resorting to rhyming couplets.

[coheneran]

Is that e-sarcasm I detect?:p

It's a folk song.

[PerpetualBurn]

And apparently not a well written one.

[coheneran]

And apparently not a well written one.

Download it, it's the sixth song down on this (http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/default.cfm?bandID=111310&content=music) site.

[PerpetualBurn]

Sounds pretty bad to me.

These are lyrics:


Well, Frankie Lee and Judas Priest,
They were the best of friends.
So when Frankie Lee needed money one day,
Judas quickly pulled out a roll of tens
And placed them on a footstool
Just above the plotted plain,
Sayin', "Take your pick, Frankie Boy,
My loss will be your gain."

Well, Frankie Lee, he sat right down
And put his fingers to his chin,
But with the cold eyes of Judas on him,
His head began to spin.
"Would ya please not stare at me like that," he said,
"It's just my foolish pride,
But sometimes a man must be alone
And this is no place to hide."

Well, Judas, he just winked and said,
"All right, I'll leave you here,
But you'd better hurry up and choose
Which of those bills you want,
Before they all disappear."
"I'm gonna start my pickin' right now,
Just tell me where you'll be."

Judas pointed down the road
And said, "Eternity!"
"Eternity?" said Frankie Lee,
With a voice as cold as ice.
"That's right," said Judas Priest, "Eternity,
Though you might call it 'Paradise.'"

"I don't call it anything,"
Said Frankie Lee with a smile.
"All right," said Judas Priest,
"I'll see you after a while."

Well, Frankie Lee, he sat back down,
Feelin' low and mean,
When just then a passing stranger
Burst upon the scene,
Saying, "Are you Frankie Lee, the gambler,
Whose father is deceased?
Well, if you are,
There's a fellow callin' you down the road
And they say his name is Priest."

"Oh, yes, he is my friend,"
Said Frankie Lee in fright,
"I do recall him very well,
In fact, he just left my sight."
"Yes, that's the one," said the stranger,
As quiet as a mouse,
"Well, my message is, he's down the road,
Stranded in a house."

Well, Frankie Lee, he panicked,
He dropped ev'rything and ran
Until he came up to the spot
Where Judas Priest did stand.
"What kind of house is this," he said,
"Where I have come to roam?"
"It's not a house," said Judas Priest,
"It's not a house . . . it's a home."

Well, Frankie Lee, he trembled,
He soon lost all control
Over ev'rything which he had made
While the mission bells did toll.
He just stood there staring
At that big house as bright as any sun,
With four and twenty windows
And a woman's face in ev'ry one.

Well, up the stairs ran Frankie Lee
With a soulful, bounding leap,
And, foaming at the mouth,
He began to make his midnight creep.
For sixteen nights and days he raved,
But on the seventeenth he burst
Into the arms of Judas Priest,
Which is where he died of thirst.

No one tried to say a thing
When they took him out in jest,
Except, of course, the little neighbor boy
Who carried him to rest.
And he just walked along, alone,
With his guilt so well concealed,
And muttered underneath his breath,
"Nothing is revealed."

Well, the moral of the story,
The moral of this song,
Is simply that one should never be
Where one does not belong.
So when you see your neighbor carryin' somethin',
Help him with his load,
And don't go mistaking Paradise
For that home across the road.

[coheneran]

Each to his own taste, I suppose.


























And death to those who disregard folk!

[peeted]

thats a rather unconvincing fox article and declassified document, it doesnt realy provide any evidence at all. the galloway thing was funny though.

[Amit]

If you're one of the people that think that the people didn't want to be liberated and that life was better under Saddam's regime, please, save it.Saddam killed and estimated 5 million people during his tenure, and tortured countless others during his time. I can't remember the name, but right after he was caught the History Channel did a special on his tortue methods and interviewed victims, where they described the unthinkable horrors the the endured,so, I think that was grounds enough for going in.

So why the flying **** isn't the US in most of Africa, especially Darfur? Rwanda? North Korea?

Where was the US during the genocide in Bangladesh?

[coheneran]

So why the flying **** isn't the US in most of Africa, especially Darfur? Rwanda? North Korea?

Where was the US during the genocide in Bangladesh?

Where is the US when Palestine needs them?

[Knifeboy]

First time we had a thread about this was almost 2 years ago.. It was as irrelevant then as it is now

[Ghoul Hunter]

When I heard this it made me so happy, haha.

[Jude]

Sounds pretty bad to me.

These are lyrics:


Well, Frankie Lee and Judas Priest,
They were the best of friends.
So when Frankie Lee needed money one day,
Judas quickly pulled out a roll of tens
And placed them on a footstool
Just above the plotted plain,
Sayin', "Take your pick, Frankie Boy,
My loss will be your gain."

Well, Frankie Lee, he sat right down
And put his fingers to his chin,
But with the cold eyes of Judas on him,
His head began to spin.
"Would ya please not stare at me like that," he said,
"It's just my foolish pride,
But sometimes a man must be alone
And this is no place to hide."

Well, Judas, he just winked and said,
"All right, I'll leave you here,
But you'd better hurry up and choose
Which of those bills you want,
Before they all disappear."
"I'm gonna start my pickin' right now,
Just tell me where you'll be."

Judas pointed down the road
And said, "Eternity!"
"Eternity?" said Frankie Lee,
With a voice as cold as ice.
"That's right," said Judas Priest, "Eternity,
Though you might call it 'Paradise.'"

"I don't call it anything,"
Said Frankie Lee with a smile.
"All right," said Judas Priest,
"I'll see you after a while."

Well, Frankie Lee, he sat back down,
Feelin' low and mean,
When just then a passing stranger
Burst upon the scene,
Saying, "Are you Frankie Lee, the gambler,
Whose father is deceased?
Well, if you are,
There's a fellow callin' you down the road
And they say his name is Priest."

"Oh, yes, he is my friend,"
Said Frankie Lee in fright,
"I do recall him very well,
In fact, he just left my sight."
"Yes, that's the one," said the stranger,
As quiet as a mouse,
"Well, my message is, he's down the road,
Stranded in a house."

Well, Frankie Lee, he panicked,
He dropped ev'rything and ran
Until he came up to the spot
Where Judas Priest did stand.
"What kind of house is this," he said,
"Where I have come to roam?"
"It's not a house," said Judas Priest,
"It's not a house . . . it's a home."

Well, Frankie Lee, he trembled,
He soon lost all control
Over ev'rything which he had made
While the mission bells did toll.
He just stood there staring
At that big house as bright as any sun,
With four and twenty windows
And a woman's face in ev'ry one.

Well, up the stairs ran Frankie Lee
With a soulful, bounding leap,
And, foaming at the mouth,
He began to make his midnight creep.
For sixteen nights and days he raved,
But on the seventeenth he burst
Into the arms of Judas Priest,
Which is where he died of thirst.

No one tried to say a thing
When they took him out in jest,
Except, of course, the little neighbor boy
Who carried him to rest.
And he just walked along, alone,
With his guilt so well concealed,
And muttered underneath his breath,
"Nothing is revealed."

Well, the moral of the story,
The moral of this song,
Is simply that one should never be
Where one does not belong.
So when you see your neighbor carryin' somethin',
Help him with his load,
And don't go mistaking Paradise
For that home across the road.


\m/
THOSE are lyrics.

On topic: Even if we did find a few active nuclear weapons it wouldn't change the fact that the administration blatantly lied and manipulated information to justify the war. Hell, if we found real WMD's they'd be as surprised as anyone.

[Atomic Rain]

Fox news?

Not if you want discussion, sunshine.

[Atomic Rain]

Well, Frankie Lee and Judas Priest,
They were the best of friends.
So when Frankie Lee needed money one day,
Judas quickly pulled out a roll of tens
And placed them on a footstool
Just above the plotted plain,
Sayin', "Take your pick, Frankie Boy,
My loss will be your gain."



<3 that song

[Brewer14]

no **** chemical weapons were found-the U.S sold them to Iraq in their conflict with Iran. That wasnt the issue.
-Bush claimed Saddam was a threat, tied to al-qaeda. False
-The intelligence claimed Iraq received yellowcake (uranium substance) from Niger. That was false
-Bush claimed the Iraqis needed freedom from a tyrannical dictator. Why doesnt Sudan then? Why couldnt the Iraqi's do something about their own freedom if they wanted it?

Now the fools at the head of the government are stuck in that mess, killing civilians and trying to piece together 3 groups of people who absolutely despise each other greatly. Mistake to enter Iraq? I think so

edit: I suggest you and other war supporters watch the frontline episode which covered the intelligence. You'll see it was completely made up.

He was connected to al-Qaeda and countless others

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Honestly, I'm glad we're in Iraq, I agree with the decision to go into Iraq and take out Saddam, but it definitly could have been handled better.

[Danger Bird]

hahaha, when morons start threads

[coheneran]

I'm gonna keep quoting folk songs until you go away:

"Now he had to go to Baghdad though Al Qaeda wasn't there
Now it is though so it's only fair
Weapons of Mass Destruction, we know they do exist
OK maybe not in Iraq but anyway those terrorists must desist
I know they have these weapons, allow me to repeat
I know they bought those chemicals, I've got the receipt
And we'll shut down their torture chambers by torturing them there
And we'll teach them how to fight fair by dropping napalm everywhere"

[ratsinthecity403]

Where is the US when Palestine needs them?


With Israel

[coheneran]

With Israel

:lol::lol:

Rep+!

[Letto]

Honestly, I'm glad we're in Iraq, I agree with the decision to go into Iraq and take out Saddam, but it definitly could have been handled better.

Well then you should enlist in the services and fight the war that you support. I'm sure you wouldn't be saying the same thing if you or any of your family was over there, risking their lives for nothing. I'm waiting for the day I see my cousins' faces on CBS news.

[coheneran]

I'm waiting for the day I see my cousins' faces on CBS news.

Up and coming actors/musicians?

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm gonna keep quoting folk songs until you go away:

"Now he had to go to Baghdad though Al Qaeda wasn't there
Now it is though so it's only fair
Weapons of Mass Destruction, we know they do exist
OK maybe not in Iraq but anyway those terrorists must desist
I know they have these weapons, allow me to repeat
I know they bought those chemicals, I've got the receipt
And we'll shut down their torture chambers by torturing them there
And we'll teach them how to fight fair by dropping napalm everywhere"

I like folk music that expresses itself in an interesting, original, and subtle way, e.g. Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell. I <3 Joni Mitchell.

[Brewer14]

Well then you should enlist in the services and fight the war that you support. I'm sure you wouldn't be saying the same thing if you or any of your family was over there, risking their lives for nothing. I'm waiting for the day I see my cousins' faces on CBS news.

I hope that day never comes. My prayers are with them.

What's their opinion on the war? Do they think they're risking their lives for nothing?

[coheneran]

I like folk music that expresses itself in an interesting, original, and subtle way, e.g. Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell. I <3 Joni Mitchell.

You mean someone that doesn't sing about how they don't like capitalism?

[The Real El Capitano]

Are you in Iraq right now? No. Your in your nice, cozy house, where for the moment you're safe and secure. What's going on in Iraq (without Saddam) right now? Well, what we know is that warfare is running rampant, civilians and soldiers alike are getting bombed and killed everyday, and the whole prospect of the future of the war is very uncertain, and that's glossing over the poverty and starvation issues. And again, that's all we know. What makes you so certain torture has stopped as a result of the expulsion of Saddam? Civilian life in Iraq is far less stable now than it was about 6 years ago, regardless of Saddam and his methods.
My brother is. Thanks.

[The Real El Capitano]

So why the flying **** isn't the US in most of Africa, especially Darfur? Rwanda? North Korea?

Where was the US during the genocide in Bangladesh?
I never supported Clinton, who pulled the U.S. out of Rwanda, so don't talk to me about that.And while you're asking those questions,where is the rest of the ****ing world? Darfur has been going on for quite some time and there isn't anyone doing ****. Don't act like it's only the U.S. when there isn't a single solitary country doing **** else.

Edit:Sorry for the double post.

[PerpetualBurn]

You mean someone that doesn't sing about how they don't like capitalism?

When the hell did Joni Mitchell turn capitalist? She was the heart and soul of the Woodstock era.

[coheneran]

When the hell did Joni Mitchell turn capitalist? She was the heart and soul of the Woodstock era.

I didn't say that at all! I was being satirical of anarcho-folk! I love Joni Mitchell!

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

So why the flying **** isn't the US in most of Africa, especially Darfur? Rwanda?

We've had some bad experiences in African countries, particularly those starting with the letter "S"

[eburton04]

So why the flying **** isn't the US in most of Africa, especially Darfur? Rwanda? North Korea?

Where was the US during the genocide in Bangladesh?


there aint no oil in africa. just black people. and we all know how W feels about black people.

where the **** was the US when ****ing katrina ran smack into louisiana and destroyed the homes of my friends and family? where the **** were they?? SPENDING ALL OUR ****ING MONEY IN ****ING IRAQ, DOING NOTHING BUT RUNNING AROUND LIKE CHICKENS WITH THEIR HEADS CUT OFF AND KILLING EVEN MORE PEOPLE WHEN THEY COULDVE BEEN SAVING LIVES HERE.


we need to get our goddamn noses out of other countries business and ****ing stop policing the world. thats not our job. its ****ing theres. if those people want to be free, let them ****ing free themselves. we ****in did it over 200 years ago, i think someone can learn from the "example" we set. thats if any other country would ever want to end up like the united states. the fattest and laziest country in the world. ****ing sick *** mother****ers here man.

everyone in iraq is dying for nothing. no problems are getting solved here. oil prices arent even going down! theyre going up! especially in LOUISIANA where we controlled alot of the oil revenues coming from WITHIN the country.


and the ****ing wmds???? are you ****ing serious? wow, ya know, its about time they found some of them. **** it should have been way ****ing easier to find some ****in BOMBS in ****ing IRAQ than finding saddam ****in husein in a goddamn hole! jesus christ our government is a ****ing joke!


**** it man... im done with this ****. none of what our government is doing is going to affect me (other than paying some more money for gas) so i'm just going to shut the **** up about it. before, uh-oh, i offend anyone.

[coheneran]

there aint no oil in africa. just black people. and we all know how W feels about black people.

I feel obliged to point out that Somalia did have some oil, and unexplored gas reserves.

[eburton04]

well, obviously not enough for big execs to make money off of. right? i mean, theres oil all over the world...

like... alaska, for instance...

geezz

[coheneran]

well, obviously not enough for big execs to make money off of. right? i mean, theres oil all over the world...

like... alaska, for instance...

geezz

Ehh, before the country went to hell, the dictator in power was backed by the States, and there were several oil/gas companies with assets in Somalia. When the civil war broke out, the companies had to withdraw their workers. That's why the US pushed for a UN intervention.

[eburton04]

i also found this interesting:

Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.

"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

The official said the findings did raise questions about the years of weapons inspections that had not resulted in locating the fairly sizeable stash of chemical weapons. And he noted that it may say something about Hussein's intent and desire. The report does suggest that some of the weapons were likely put on the black market and may have been used outside Iraq.


i think its funny that the WMDs they found date back to daddy's term in office..

[eburton04]

Ehh, before the country went to hell, the dictator in power was backed by the States, and there were several oil/gas companies with assets in Somalia. When the civil war broke out, the companies had to withdraw their workers. That's why the US pushed for a UN intervention.

ahh yes. well that makes since.. but yeah i'm not all too familiar with u.s. relations in africa... most of the stuff that went on in africa went on before i was concerned with what our government was doing overseas. haha :wave:

[Atomic Rain]

You mean someone that doesn't sing about how they don't like capitalism?
Ííéó

[coheneran]

I don't speak Russian.:p

[Atomic Rain]

Sorry, computer crashed.

I started to type

"I like folk songs that protest capitalism and itsa effects without using the word capitalism. As in, subtlety."

[coheneran]

Sorry, computer crashed.

I started to type

"I like folk songs that protest capitalism and itsa effects without using the word capitalism. As in, subtlety."

Stop trying to have a serious discussion!:angry:

[Zoroaster]

Most left-wing nuts are invested in an American defeat in Iraq. No wonder they're trying to downplay the fact that Saddam Hussein did lie about having WMD, contrary to the message they've been perpetuating these last few years.

[coheneran]

Most left-wing nuts are invested in an American defeat in Iraq. No wonder they're trying to downplay the fact that Saddam Hussein did lie about having WMD, contrary to the message they've been perpetuating these last few years.

Not wanting to be a left-wing nut and defend a bloody killer, but technically it's not a weapon that is capable of mass destruction if it isn't in a working condition. In other words, it's not a WMD if it can't cause mass destruction, which the Defence official said it can't.

[Against Miik!]

O.k. So technically, Bush was right. But not really. It's like if a mans wife thought he was out with another woman, and the guy was visiting his grandmother. Technically right, but not what you think.

[coheneran]

O.k. So technically, Bush was right. But not really. It's like if a mans wife thought he was out with another woman, and the guy was visiting his grandmother. Technically right, but not what you think.

Good analogy, except Saddam Hussein isn't the grandson of a mustard gas mortar. Maybe.:p

[Jude]

My brother is. Thanks.
Why aren't you? Put your money where your mouth is or you're a pussy just like everyone else who says they support this war but isn't over there.

[Shell]

there aint no oil in africa. just black people. and we all know how W feels about black people.

where the **** was the US when ****ing katrina ran smack into louisiana and destroyed the homes of my friends and family? where the **** were they?? SPENDING ALL OUR ****ING MONEY IN ****ING IRAQ, DOING NOTHING BUT RUNNING AROUND LIKE CHICKENS WITH THEIR HEADS CUT OFF AND KILLING EVEN MORE PEOPLE WHEN THEY COULDVE BEEN SAVING LIVES HERE.


we need to get our goddamn noses out of other countries business and ****ing stop policing the world. thats not our job. its ****ing theres. if those people want to be free, let them ****ing free themselves. we ****in did it over 200 years ago, i think someone can learn from the "example" we set. thats if any other country would ever want to end up like the united states. the fattest and laziest country in the world. ****ing sick *** mother****ers here man.

everyone in iraq is dying for nothing. no problems are getting solved here. oil prices arent even going down! theyre going up! especially in LOUISIANA where we controlled alot of the oil revenues coming from WITHIN the country.


and the ****ing wmds???? are you ****ing serious? wow, ya know, its about time they found some of them. **** it should have been way ****ing easier to find some ****in BOMBS in ****ing IRAQ than finding saddam ****in husein in a goddamn hole! jesus christ our government is a ****ing joke!


**** it man... im done with this ****. none of what our government is doing is going to affect me (other than paying some more money for gas) so i'm just going to shut the **** up about it. before, uh-oh, i offend anyone.


And I would like to add....
**** **** **** bitch **** damn ***

edit: sweet, didn't know you could say bitch and damn! woohoo!!

[Shell]

Why aren't you? Put your money where your mouth is or you're a pussy just like everyone else who says they support this war but isn't over there.


If everyone who supported this war was enlisted... we'd prolly have a pretty wussified army, navy, etc....
I feel bad for the guys/gals who disagree with the war, but have to be over there regardless. :(

[Jude]

If everyone who supported this war was enlisted... we'd prolly have a pretty wussified army, navy, etc....
I feel bad for the guys/gals who disagree with the war, but have to be over there regardless. :(
No no no, the point of what I was saying is that anyone who says they support this war but has not enlisted in the army is a hypocrite, a windbag and a ****ing pussy. If you disagree with the war it makes sense not to be enlisted.

[Shell]

No no no, the point of what I was saying is that anyone who says they support this war but has not enlisted in the army is a hypocrite, a windbag and a ****ing pussy. If you disagree with the war it makes sense not to be enlisted.

But for all we know, The Real El Capitano could be 6'2' 130# with an IQ of 65 and scared of his shadow. If so, I sure as heck don't want him in the army. :P

[Kickflip_Burrito]

If you're one of the people that think that the people didn't want to be liberated and that life was better under Saddam's regime, please, save it.Saddam killed and estimated 5 million people during his tenure, and tortured countless others during his time.
What he did to Kurds was really bad. But he kept a strict regime over Iraq regarding the Shi'ites and Sunnis because they hate each other. He kept it strict to make sure there were no civil war, riots, genocide, etc.

Now look at Iraq, Sunnis bombing Shi'ites, Shi'ites bombing Sunnis. This 'liberation' you speak of has only disrupted the country's national security and functions.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

You know, tbh, even if they found a nuke Bush would still be a liar. He accused Saddam of having WMD's without any proof, and whether he was right or wrong, he's still a bald-faced liar. Suppose you walk down the street and call some black guy a murderer because he's wearing a do-rag. Whether the guy turns out to be a murderer or not, you're still a racist. Bush said they had proof of a link with Al-Qaeda, proof of WMDs, and that the US army would be met with open arms when they marched in - none of those things are true. Finding an old pile of semi-scrapped chemical weapons doesn't mean Bush was telling the truth when he said he had proof.

[Steerpike]

I never supported Clinton, who pulled the U.S. out of Rwanda, so don't talk to me about that.And while you're asking those questions,where is the rest of the ****ing world? Darfur has been going on for quite some time and there isn't anyone doing ****. Don't act like it's only the U.S. when there isn't a single solitary country doing **** else.

Edit:Sorry for the double post.

So because no other country is playing the part of the "holy liberator" you have no problem with us abdicating this duty which you seem determined to assign to us?

[Ghoul Hunter]

No no no, the point of what I was saying is that anyone who says they support this war but has not enlisted in the army is a hypocrite, a windbag and a ****ing pussy. If you disagree with the war it makes sense not to be enlisted.
That's a really stupid thing to say.

[LittlePound]

serioiusly. Just becuase you're pro-"war in Iraq" doesn't mean you have to enlist yourself in the army. That's so stupid, and you'd be sorry if everyone did do that cuz that would cause a whole lot of trouble state side seeing as a lot more people would be in hte military and not doing ht jobs they are doing now.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

No no no, the point of what I was saying is that anyone who says they support this war but has not enlisted in the army is a hypocrite, a windbag and a ****ing pussy. If you disagree with the war it makes sense not to be enlisted.

That's a horrendously stupid point.

[Jharaski]

No no no, the point of what I was saying is that anyone who says they support this war but has not enlisted in the army is a hypocrite, a windbag and a ****ing pussy. If you disagree with the war it makes sense not to be enlisted.

I support it but there's no way in hell I could contribute a damned thing with my leg and all. Unless I become a cook and get to sit down all day.

[PepsiMetal]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/18/iraq/main537096.shtml

'Nuff said.

[Amit]

We've had some bad experiences in African countries, particularly those starting with the letter "S"

Considering it was a handful of U.S. special forces soldiers versus tens of thousands of soldiers, those U.S. troops did quite a job.

I never supported Clinton, who pulled the U.S. out of Rwanda, so don't talk to me about that.And while you're asking those questions,where is the rest of the ****ing world? Darfur has been going on for quite some time and there isn't anyone doing ****. Don't act like it's only the U.S. when there isn't a single solitary country doing **** else.

You're the one who is justifying the U.S. involvement in Iraq with humanitarian reasoning. And concerning Darfur, no one can even come close in terms of military strength. Why isn't the U.S. in Darfur where easily far greater crimes against humanity are being committed than ever were committed in Iraq?

Probably because there isn't much feasible oil to be had, right?

You can talk all you want about other countries, but no one (not even you) were talking about them in your original post. They are irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Even then, you can take China, England, France, and any other country you want and combine them together and they still wouldn't be able to compare to just a handful of the US armed forces.

[Brewer14]

Considering it was a handful of U.S. special forces soldiers versus tens of thousands of soldiers, those U.S. troops did quite a job.



You're the one who is justifying the U.S. involvement in Iraq with humanitarian reasoning. And concerning Darfur, no one can even come close in terms of military strength. Why isn't the U.S. in Darfur where easily far greater crimes against humanity are being committed than ever were committed in Iraq?

Probably because there isn't much feasible oil to be had, right?

You can talk all you want about other countries, but no one (not even you) were talking about them in your original post. They are irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Even then, you can take China, England, France, and any other country you want and combine them together and they still wouldn't be able to compare to just a handful of the US armed forces.

Has the leader (if they have one) of Sudan ever been behind the killing of Americans? Saddam sure has. Which is a good reason to go into Iraq first.

[Amit]

Has the leader (if they have one) of Sudan ever been behind the killing of Americans? Saddam sure has. Which is a good reason to go into Iraq first.

Those behind the atrocities in Darfur encourage the very kind of religious (and in this case, Islamic) fundamentalism and terrorism that the U.S. is threatened by.

Seems more like a far better case to attack Sudan than Iraq considering Saddam was mostly a secular guy who wasn't loved too greatly by Al Qaeda.

[Jharaski]

Saudi Arabia has more oil than Iraq. Surely we could let our relations with them go to crap and steal it if that's what we're doing in Iraq?

So we're not there for oil is what I'm saying.

[RNR]

Well I always supported getting rid of sadam and I've always believed that there were dangerous weapons. But the way that the war took place, the USA pretty much giving the UN a big "**** you" and charging in there hastily without international support or any real plan on how to get their troops out doesn't look so good. This leads me to believe that the USA's prolonged time in Iraq is purely for business purposes.

Saudi Arabia has more oil than Iraq. Surely we could let our relations with them go to crap and steal it if that's what we're doing in Iraq?

So we're not there for oil is what I'm saying.

Saudi Arabia wasn't nearly as bad as Iraq. Sadam had to go anyways, there were actually good reasons for invading that could mask the true reason to go (my main beef with the war is how they've prolonged it needlessly and how they didn't get UN support for the removal of a dictator).

[Brewer14]

Those behind the atrocities in Darfur encourage the very kind of religious (and in this case, Islamic) fundamentalism and terrorism that the U.S. is threatened by.

Seems more like a far better case to attack Sudan than Iraq considering Saddam was mostly a secular guy who wasn't loved too greatly by Al Qaeda.

Saddam worked with Al-Qaeda and other terrorists. Saddam had the power to help harm the US. I can't see the leaders in Sudan being capable of that, at the moment.

[PepsiMetal]

Saudi Arabia has more oil than Iraq. Surely we could let our relations with them go to crap and steal it if that's what we're doing in Iraq?

So we're not there for oil is what I'm saying.

Saudi Arabia is an islam holy land. Attacking that country would be one of the biggest mistake US could make. That could easily be looked upon as holy war then.

Plus Saudi Arabia is a good ally to US and sells enough oil for decent prices already.

Saddam worked with Al-Qaeda and other terrorists.

That's a myth. Osama Bin Laden actually wanted to fight Saddam's army in the first gulf war and offered Saudi's King the help of his army after they defeated Russians in the Afghanistan. Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden had no connection at all.

Maybe he worked with Hamas, but definetely not Al-Qaida.

[Jharaski]

Saudi Arabia is an islam holy land. Attacking that country would be one of the biggest mistake US could make. That could easily be looked upon as holy war then.

Plus Saudi Arabia is a good ally to US and sells enough oil for decent prices already.
Then we don't need any more from Iraq. Alaska's got a lot too. It'd piss off less people and be cheaper if we went there. Just saying I don't think it's for oil.

[Brewer14]

Saudi Arabia is an islam holy land. Attacking that country would be one of the biggest mistake US could make. That could easily be looked upon as holy war then.

Plus Saudi Arabia is a good ally to US and sells enough oil for decent prices already.



That's a myth. Osama Bin Laden actually wanted to fight Saddam's army in the first gulf war and offered Saudi's King the help of his army after they defeated Russians in the Afghanistan. Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden had no connection at all.

Maybe he worked with Hamas, but definetely not Al-Qaida.

He provided shelter to at least one Al-Qaeda terrorist. Iraqi officials also met with several of the 9/11 hijackers.

"Worked" was probably the wrong word to use.

[Spoonful of Shame]

Saddam worked with Al-Qaeda and other terrorists. Saddam had the power to help harm the US. I can't see the leaders in Sudan being capable of that, at the moment.

Where are you getting that information from? Do you have any evidence to back that up? I believe it has been said many times before that there is no link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda.

In fact, President Bush has already went back on what he said about the link existing.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/no-saddam-qaeda.htm

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Saddam worked with Al-Qaeda and other terrorists. Saddam had the power to help harm the US. I can't see the leaders in Sudan being capable of that, at the moment.

Do you have a source for this? Because the CIA doesn't.

[PepsiMetal]

Yea like everyone said, this isn't proven. As far as I remember, US administration has said their WMD claims were wrong as well as those claims that Saddam had connections with Al-Qaida.

[Jharaski]

Saddam no doubt supported their cause in his own mind, though that's irrelevant.

[Brewer14]

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Seems credible to me.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/08/uttm/main552868.shtml

That too.

[PepsiMetal]

Well the first link is mostly about bombings in palestine, which Al-Qaida is almost never involved in. It's mostly Hamas there. They do mention some Al-Qaida "franchises" in other countries, but then again that site could have been made by anyone.

The second link while being alot more credible, mentions that evidence they supposedly found wasn't even great. They probably just sued since USA had control over Iraqi's frozen assets and thought they might get easy money.

Wikipedia has a great article on this actually:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda

I really doubt Saddam and Al-Qaida had anything going on. Hamas and Saddam probably did since they both were against Israel.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Seems credible to me.

That's sickeningly bias. I could almost hear Bill O'Reilly narrarating that. That doesn't hold too much credibility to me.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/08/uttm/main552868.shtml

That too.

That's one Federal judge. That's certainly not enough to prove the allegations you're making correct.

[Brewer14]

Well the first link is mostly about bombings in palestine, which Al-Qaida is almost never involved in. It's mostly Hamas there. They do mention some Al-Qaida "franchises" in other countries, but then again that site could have been made by anyone.

The second link while being alot more credible, mentions that evidence they supposedly found wasn't even great. They probably just sued since USA had control over Iraqi's frozen assets and thought they might get easy money.

Wikipedia has a great article on this actually:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda

I really doubt Saddam and Al-Qaida had anything going on. Hamas and Saddam probably did since they both were against Israel.

I was actually just reading that. Good article.

Although Iraq and Al-Qaeda never planned an attack against the US, there was contact between the two, and they both shared a common enemy- the US. I also don't doubt that a few of the terrorists who came out of Saddam's terror training camps joined Al-Qaeda.

(Going to sleep. Hopefully, I remember to check this in the morning)

[Against Miik!]

You guys are basically saying they played one poker game together and based on that are in on a plot to take over Vegas. Even if there were small instances in which the two had contact, you'd have to connect a lot of dots to get any real alliance between the two.

[Steerpike]

Probably because there isn't much feasible oil to be had, right?

It's even scarier when you consider the military strategic value Iraq would give the US in the Middle East in the aftermath of the war. It's like having one huge base of operation with a puppet government.

Of course, that didn't work out nearly as well as they'd hoped.

Saddam worked with Al-Qaeda and other terrorists.

Why the hell would religious fanatics help a secularist who sometimes violently put down the other religious nuts who were on their side? Can you provide any proof that such a thing happened?

He provided shelter to at least one Al-Qaeda terrorist. Iraqi officials also met with several of the 9/11 hijackers.

"Worked" was probably the wrong word to use.

Even if that were true, that's not sufficient grounds to start a war. Hell, that's not even a sub-plot to a bad political thriller novel.

That's sickeningly bias. I could almost hear Bill O'Reilly narrarating that. That doesn't hold too much credibility to me.



That's one Federal judge. That's certainly not enough to prove the allegations you're making correct.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I was actually just reading that. Good article.

Although Iraq and Al-Qaeda never planned an attack against the US, there was contact between the two, and they both shared a common enemy- the US. I also don't doubt that a few of the terrorists who came out of Saddam's terror training camps joined Al-Qaeda.

The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

Saddam violently put down all attempts by the radical Muslims in his own country to instate a theocracy. Al-Qaeda wants a theocracy. If you believe for one minute that those two would make good allies in a conspiracy, then you may as well also believe Disney's claims that a lion can live in a hippy colony with wild boars and meerkats.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

I can't believe anyone's still trying to pull the 'Saddam supported terrorism' ****.

[Brewer14]

The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

Saddam violently put down all attempts by the radical Muslims in his own country to instate a theocracy. Al-Qaeda wants a theocracy. If you believe for one minute that those two would make good allies in a conspiracy, then you may as well also believe Disney's claims that a lion can live in a hippy colony with wild boars and meerkats.

It's not ludicrous to think that they could. If collaborating with Saddam gave Al-Qaeda a chance to harm the US, do you think they would have passed it up? Would Saddam?

I can't believe anyone's still trying to pull the 'Saddam supported terrorism' ****.

He did.

[Steerpike]

It's not ludicrous to think that they could. If collaborating with Saddam gave Al-Qaeda a chance to harm the US, do you think they would have passed it up? Would Saddam?

Yes. Don't start conspiracies with people you hate and have no reason whatsoever to trust.

Most people figure that out around the same time they learn not to stick their tongue into electric sockets.

People like you need to learn that there is no such thing as monolithic evil. You haven't even acknowledged the logistical flaws in your argument.

For one thing, Saddam was an infidel. He violently put down all of the religious fanatics in his country whom Al Qaeda sympathized with. He was a secularist, and even if he wasn't, he was raised in a sect of Islam opposed to Bin Laden's.

Besides that, bin Laden hated Saddam. He wants the entire world to be an Islam theocracy. He hates secularists even more than the most ardent bible-thumpers. This is a man he would put a knife in before even considering working with.

Also, Saddam got his *** kicked already. Even with WMDs, he would lose. If he was planning on launching nukes at Great Britain or the US, he would soon find himself on the business end of every other country's nukes as they wouldn't want to be next on the hit list. Iraq would be turned into a giant pane of glass before the day was over.

There is no "Axis of Evil". None of those countries were going to work together. Their goals simply do not jibe with one another. The coining of the whole term was nothing but a blatant attempt to try and galvanize the population by recalling images of the Nazi aggression and attacks in World War II.

Now, also bear in mind that Saddam never actually had the equipment to create WMDs. All the raw materials he possessed were appropriate for conventional weapons, but not WMDs. The chemical weapons that were found last year were actually left overs from the 90's Persian Gulf War and had actually expired. Chemical and biological weapons have very short shelf life. Within a year or two, they turn into useless, ineffectual goo.

Saddam certainly didn't like the US. But he had no reason whatsoever to risk his position of power and life by attempting to launch nukes at us that he never actually had.

There were no connections to Al Qaeda. None whatsoever. It was a blatant lie cooked up by the Administration to justify a war that was completely unnecessary and started for the personal gain of a small handful of men who stood to profit off of it.

[Jude]

That's a really stupid thing to say.
No, it makes perfect sense.

serioiusly. Just becuase you're pro-"war in Iraq" doesn't mean you have to enlist yourself in the army. That's so stupid, and you'd be sorry if everyone did do that cuz that would cause a whole lot of trouble state side seeing as a lot more people would be in hte military and not doing ht jobs they are doing now.
It's not stupid. I didn't say you HAD to enlist. I just said that if you're full of talk enough to say it's cool for us to be starting wars in other countries, you should have the balls to go fight those wars.

That's a horrendously stupid point.
Care to explain why
But you can't.


I support it but there's no way in hell I could contribute a damned thing with my leg and all. Unless I become a cook and get to sit down all day.

The leg is almost an excuse but not enough of one. Go do the cook thing.

Saddam worked with Al-Qaeda and other terrorists. Saddam had the power to help harm the US. I can't see the leaders in Sudan being capable of that, at the moment.
Man you got shot down enough times already, I won't rub it in anymore.

He did.
Haha, 2 pages of getting shut down and not giving any credible proof for your story later, you're still trying. You got heart, I'll say that.

[Jharaski]

The leg is almost an excuse but not enough of one. Go do the cook thing.


The army came to recruit me at my house the other day. After one look at my leg, they decided there's no way I could join as I would be a burden to everyone else if something happened. Leave no man behind. That would include me, and since I'd be on crutches, I couldn't flee quickly enough and I would slow everyone else down.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

Care to explain why
But you can't.

You're right. I can't explain why people aren't hypocrites if they support a war but won't join in on it. Seriously, did you even read that post? People are granted the right to choose whether or not they want to be a soldier, and just because you advocate a cause, even if it is off-handedly, doesn't mean you have to put your life on the line for it.

[Jharaski]

I think Walmart is evil. But you don't see me blowing up its stores.

[Smokey D]

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

Seems credible to me.



Hey, the CIA is more credible.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/08/uttm/main552868.shtml

That too.

Out of date.

He was a secularist, and even if he wasn't, he was raised in a sect of Islam opposed to Bin Laden's.

Minor point, but they are both Sunni. Bin Laden associates the bat-**** crazy Wahabbist side of that group, while Saddam is part of the secular Ba'athist/Arab Socialist movement.

[Steerpike]

Minor point, but they are both Sunni. Bin Laden associates the bat-**** crazy Wahabbist side of that group, while Saddam is part of the secular Ba'athist/Arab Socialist movement.

My mistake. In either case, they may as well be part of different sects with differences like that.

[Jude]

The army came to recruit me at my house the other day. After one look at my leg, they decided there's no way I could join as I would be a burden to everyone else if something happened. Leave no man behind. That would include me, and since I'd be on crutches, I couldn't flee quickly enough and I would slow everyone else down.
OK you have a good excuse. I don't hold you in contempt for not joining the army while supporting the war. However that leaves everyone else.

You're right. I can't explain why people aren't hypocrites if they support a war but won't join in on it. Seriously, did you even read that post? People are granted the right to choose whether or not they want to be a soldier, and just because you advocate a cause, even if it is off-handedly, doesn't mean you have to put your life on the line for it.
You clearly didn't read MY post. I never said you HAVE to join the army if you support the war...just that you're a pathetic wuss if you support it and don't join.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

I read your post, and my point is that you said you HAVE to join not to be branded a coward and/or hypocrite, and that's flat out incorrect. There are plenty of people who can't fight anyway, as a result of physical injuries.

[The Real El Capitano]

Jude, stop acting like anyone that supports the war needs to join. It has been pointed out many times that if everyone that supported it were to join it, that they would most likley be more of a detrement to the cause, as opposed to helping it. Also, my family has risked more for this country than you can ever even begin to dream about. I come from a long line of military people, who have sacrificed their lives time and again for this country, and your freedom.

[RNR]

I can't believe that people claim to actually support Saddam just for the purpose of proving that the war was crooked (there are better means of doing that). Any oppressive and murderous dictator should be overthrown and killed.

[Steerpike]

Jude, stop acting like anyone that supports the war needs to join. It has been pointed out many times that if everyone that supported it were to join it, that they would most likley be more of a detrement to the cause, as opposed to helping it. Also, my family has risked more for this country than you can ever even begin to dream about. I come from a long line of military people, who have sacrificed their lives time and again for this country, and your freedom.

Good for them.

But, just to nip this one in the bud, don't use the actions of your ancestors as leverage in your own arguments.

You have yet to address the fact that your original claim in the first post, that the war was justified because Bush didn't lie about the WMDs, is wrong.

[Jharaski]

Bush probably DID think that there were WMDs. He screwed up and now we're suffering the consequences. We didn't want Israel to be endangered. Pretty bad thinking, though.

[Steerpike]

Bush probably DID think that there were WMDs. He screwed up and now we're suffering the consequences. We didn't want Israel to be endangered. Pretty bad thinking, though.

So, assuming that was the case, he's not a liar. He's just horrifyingly stupid, incompetent, and has incredibly poor judgment. Not much of an improvement.

Either way, fact remains that he rushed us in there, ballsed it up, and now we're paying the damn price for his mistake.

[RNR]

The longer the war goes on, the more money the weapon companies who have the government contract make. That was the main reason for Vietnam and i'm not going to rule out that it's a reason for this war.

[Jharaski]

The longer the war goes on, the more money the weapon companies who have the government contract make. That was the main reason for Vietnam and i'm not going to rule out that it's a reason for this war.

We went to Vietnam to bash commies. We fought in WWII for the economy. It's a likely secondary reason for this war.

[RNR]

We went to Vietnam to bash commies. We fought in WWII for the economy. It's a likely secondary reason for this war.

Nobody could believe that the only motive for Vietnam was commie bashing. All though it's the "offical" reason. They actually work together. "Your economic ideology is different than ours, we're going to kill you and our industries and capitalist businessmen will benefit while we're doing it!"

World War II was because of Pearl Harbour. Even Canadians know that.

[Jharaski]

Nobody could believe that the only motive for Vietnam was commie bashing. All though it's the "offical" reason. They actually work together. "Your economic ideology is different than ours, we're going to kill you and our industries and capitalist businessmen will benefit while we're doing it!"

World War II was because of Pearl Harbour. Even Canadians know that.

We can be very childish when it comes to communism. Look at the Cuban embargo. Castro is already filthy rich, it won't make much of a difference if we trade with the country.

I heard we gathered intel about Pearl Harbor. WWII brought us right out of the depression. We needed it.

[Jude]

I read your post, and my point is that you said you HAVE to join not to be branded a coward and/or hypocrite, and that's flat out incorrect. There are plenty of people who can't fight anyway, as a result of physical injuries.
People with incapacitating injuries are obviously exceptions. I shouldn't have to put such an obvious note on my post :\

Jude, stop acting like anyone that supports the war needs to join.
No.

It has been pointed out many times that if everyone that supported it were to join it, that they would most likley be more of a detrement to the cause, as opposed to helping it.

Which is 100% besides the point.

Also, my family has risked more for this country than you can ever even begin to dream about.
Do I care? You're still all talk until YOU get over there and start fighting.

I come from a long line of military people, who have sacrificed their lives time and again for this country, and your freedom.
You had ancestors fighting in the revolutionary war? Wow. Cool.

Too bad you're still just a bag of air without the balls to join the military and back up your big words.

[RNR]

Yes, war for the united states is usually good for its economy. A bad reason to go but one of the main reasons.

[The Real El Capitano]

People with incapacitating injuries are obviously exceptions. I shouldn't have to put such an obvious note on my post :\


No.


Which is 100% besides the point.


Do I care? You're still all talk until YOU get over there and start fighting.

You had ancestors fighting in the revolutionary war? Wow. Cool.

Too bad you're still just a bag of air without the balls to join the military and back up your big words.
F.Y.I. you imbicile,17 is too young to join the military. Believe me, I plan on attending the Naval Academy in Maryland, and being a naval aviator. So please, stop falling back on the "OMG YOURE NOT THERE!111!!" excuse to validate anything.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

People with incapacitating injuries are obviously exceptions. I shouldn't have to put such an obvious note on my post :\

Of course that's obvious, my point in raising that was it still undermines your argument. The main thrust of what I'm saying is you can advocate a cause if you want to, and that doesn't mean you have to go to extremes to validate your beliefs. That also doesn't make you a coward. I'm sure there are many things politically or otherwise you support, but don't do jack **** about.

[Against Miik!]

F.Y.I. you imbicile,17 is too young to join the military. Believe me, I plan on attending the Naval Academy in Maryland, and being a naval aviator. So please, stop falling back on the "OMG YOURE NOT THERE!111!!" excuse to validate anything.

If you get into Anapolis i'll eat my testicles.

[Zoroaster]

Yes, war for the united states is usually good for its economy. A bad reason to go but one of the main reasons.

Completely unfounded. If anything, the war in Iraq and indeed the Middle East at large has introduced more volatility in common shares with significant correlation to oil extraction rates and, yes you guessed it, oil prices.

F.Y.I. you imbicile,17 is too young to join the military. Believe me, I plan on attending the Naval Academy in Maryland, and being a naval aviator. So please, stop falling back on the "OMG YOURE NOT THERE!111!!" excuse to validate anything.

I have one thing to tell you, and it goes something like this. You are a hero. You are an examplar of courage. You and all the other men and women that serve and intend to serve the greatest armed forces on this planet. I would like to extend a thanks (presumptuous as it might be) for doing not only a graceful and dignified thing, but also the right thing. Best of luck, and one last thing: you get 'em tiger.

[Against Miik!]

I have one thing to tell you, and it goes something like this. You are a hero. You are an examplar of courage. You and all the other men and women that serve and intend to serve the greatest armed forces on this planet. I would like to extend a thanks (presumptuous as it might be) for doing not only a graceful and dignified thing, but also the right thing. Best of luck, and one last thing: you get 'em tiger.

I hope thats a joke. If not, i'm going into the Marines as soon as I can stop jerking off and get off the couch. But I swear i'm gonna do it.

Respect demanded.

[PerpetualBurn]

I have one thing to tell you, and it goes something like this. You are a hero. You are an examplar of courage. You and all the other men and women that serve and intend to serve the greatest armed forces on this planet. I would like to extend a thanks (presumptuous as it might be) for doing not only a graceful and dignified thing, but also the right thing. Best of luck, and one last thing: you get 'em tiger.

ITT: Zoroaster comes out.

[Atomic Rain]

I have one thing to tell you, and it goes something like this. You are a hero. You are an examplar of courage. You and all the other men and women that serve and intend to serve the greatest armed forces on this planet. I would like to extend a thanks (presumptuous as it might be) for doing not only a graceful and dignified thing, but also the right thing. Best of luck, and one last thing: you get 'em tiger.

Do you call the united states military the greatest in the world in the sense that it's the biggest, or do you gfeel it in some other way jsutifies the title?

Just interested.

[Shell]

I hope thats a joke. If not, i'm going into the Marines as soon as I can stop jerking off and get off the couch. But I swear i'm gonna do it.

Respect demanded.


I don't see anything wrong with what Z said.

[Jude]

F.Y.I. you imbicile,17 is too young to join the military. Believe me, I plan on attending the Naval Academy in Maryland, and being a naval aviator. So please, stop falling back on the "OMG YOURE NOT THERE!111!!" excuse to validate anything.
Well if you're doing it, then you're clearly not a wuss so you shouldn't be offended. If you had said that in the first place I would have known :confused:

Of course that's obvious, my point in raising that was it still undermines your argument. The main thrust of what I'm saying is you can advocate a cause if you want to, and that doesn't mean you have to go to extremes to validate your beliefs. That also doesn't make you a coward. I'm sure there are many things politically or otherwise you support, but don't do jack **** about.
But I don't advocate military disruption and destruction of a whole country which requires people from THIS country to go over and sacrifice their lives, but not be willing to go sacrifice MY life

Yeah, Jude I have a lot of admiration for people who work in inner city drug clinics (which is dangerous), but I'm not working there either. Speaking purely logistically it's impossible to work for every cause that you support but which is also dangerous. If you support the police, the war in Iraq and people who work in dangerous conditions you obviously can't work for all three at the same time.
I'm not 100% serious...maybe 60%...but it's too fun messing with these guys...and besides I do have a point


IN ANY CASE
Let's get back on the thread topic which is how regardless if some old busted-*** nonfunctional missile was found somewhere in Iraq we were still lied to and any reasonable populace would have overthrown this administration already
revolution \m/ \m/

[Atomic Rain]

I think that'd be pretty ironic considering the last dodgy government that got overthrown

and anyway, look how that turned out

[Jude]

I think that'd be pretty ironic considering the last dodgy government that got overthrown

and anyway, look how that turned out
Well, the very least we could do is get some impeaching going. The only problem is that given the size of the administration who pushed the war, it's impossible to pin anything down on the president himself. And you can only impeach the president :(

Here's another topic for debate, if we impeached Bush, would it be worth it? It WOULD set a good precedent - and maybe strike some fear in the hearts of future presidents and keep them in line a little more. The threat of impeachment is pretty impotent at this point and bringing it back would be good.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Threats of impeachment have only served to hurt those making them

Besides, Dick Cheney would be in charge. Do you really want that?

[Syncratic]

I don't think that it would be worth it with the current evidence. Even if the Democrats took back the House this fall then there's no way that they'd get 67 votes in the Senate to remove him from office, and short of that there's no point. The Republicans will make it look like revenge for Clinton and the actions of a party with no ideas very easily, and while the two situations aren't analagous, the charge would stick. If the Democrats get the House back they can effectively ruin his last two years in the White House simply by trying to bring back some degree of oversight without going through the complete fiasco that impeachmen would be.

If the Dems win back Congress in November, Bush is by all accounts screwed. His policies won't get the necessary support, stuff of that nature. It would cripple his administration.

I wouldn't put it past the Democrats to impeach him. Some are so fed up over Bush that it's come down to 'any means necessary' to deal with him.

[Amit]

F.Y.I. you imbicile,17 is too young to join the military. Believe me, I plan on attending the Naval Academy in Maryland, and being a naval aviator. So please, stop falling back on the "OMG YOURE NOT THERE!111!!" excuse to validate anything.

I'll be sure to send this post and other gems you've written to the two senators you'll be asking for your letters of recommendation.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

I wouldn't put it past the Democrats to impeach him. Some are so fed up over Bush that it's come down to 'any means necessary' to deal with him.

That would be suicide

[Jude]

Besides, Dick Cheney would be in charge. Do you really want that?
I don't think it would really make much difference. That's why I think having a substantial possibility of impeachment for presidents who overstep the bounds too much is good, and might be attained by impeaching Bush.

Med is correct that it would be totally impossible though.

[Jharaski]

Hey go for it. I think Cheney would do a pretty good job. At least comparatively.

[Syncratic]

It would be just like the Democrats to do something as politically stupid as try a totally futile impeachment of a President who would already effectively be a lame duck. That's possibly the saddest thing.

I agree 100%

Just don't rule it out.

[Saitoku]

This is the report that Rick Santorum has been waving about, right? Just for the record, this quote is buried in the article that the threadstarter posted:

"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

Threadstarter should have read the whole article.

[ChickenStu]

This is the report that Rick Santorum has been waving about, right? Just for the record, this quote is buried in the article that the threadstarter posted:



Threadstarter should have read the whole article.

Thats what 'one official' said.

Even if it wasnt the exact WMD's...they are WMD's, biological weapons...and hundreds of them.

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Either way, Bush didn't know they had them. He's still a liar.

If I call you a homo because I don't like your opinions, I'm a douchebag. If you also happen to be homosexual, that wouldn't make me any less of a douche just because I happen to be right. You understand what I mean?

[Steerpike]

Thats what 'one official' said.

Even if it wasnt the exact WMD's...they are WMD's, biological weapons...and hundreds of them.

They're not the weapons that Bush claimed Saddam had. Therefore, it does not validate his claims.

And it doesn't help the case any that all of the bio-weapons had expired. Those things have a very short shelf life. If they're not used within a matter of months, they become harmless goo.

[ChickenStu]

Either way, Bush didn't know they had them. He's still a liar.


Then Clinton is a liar (which we already knew), and Kerry lies, too.

[LittlePound]

i think that just about every politician lies, it's part of the job......

[ChickenStu]

haha, sounds good to me.

[PepsiMetal]

i think that just about every politician lies, it's part of the job......

Every human being lies. But the difference is, if I lie, it's not going to kill 30,000 innocent people, whereas if politicians lie, it could.

[Steerpike]

Then Clinton is a liar (which we already knew), and Kerry lies, too.

Actually, if you want to continue the game of pointing fingers, the most likely candidate for blame would be the Bush senior administration.

I'm not quite sure how Clinton lying about his blowjob and Kerry lying about who-the-hell-cares is relevant to this particular issue, but...

[free_thinkers_are_dangerous]

Then Clinton is a liar (which we already knew), and Kerry lies, too.

Ok, but neither on such a grandly evil scale. Clinton lied about a little sucky sucky. Kerry lied about I'm not too sure what, although I'm sure he must have lied at some point. Bush lied on a scale that has led to bloodshed and chaos on a massive scale, and shows no signs of slowing down or learning from his mistakes. There's a difference between screwing your country up the *** and lying to cover the fact you're having an affair.

[Saitoku]

Thats what 'one official' said.

Even if it wasnt the exact WMD's...they are WMD's, biological weapons...and hundreds of them.
Alright, let me make the quote a little clearer for you.

Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.

"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

This is not some closet-liberal Defense Department official trying to downplay all the crazy WMDs we found in Iraq. This is the Bush Administration responding to the reports so that people don't start running around going "OMG, they found the weapons!!! Suck it liberals!" ergo making Republicans look stupid. Do you really think that if we did find actual WMDs in Iraq Bush wouldn't be holding a press conference right now? Come back to reality.