single bass problems

[breakinben_freak]

not sure if this is an advanced question but i'm pretty sure its not basic...:confused:

anyway, lately i've had alot of trouble controlling my single bass. I'd been playing a single bass pedal for about 2 years, and now i've been playing on a double bass pedal for about 6 months. I play single bass heel down and double bass heel up because thats how i feel comfortable, but lately i've noticed that when tryin to play some of my single bass stuff i dont have much control or speed, and stuff i used to be able to play on a single bass i now need to play on a double (sorry about draggin that on)

anyway, do you think its a problem with my technique or do you think it might be a hardware problem or something???

[beaker_747]

It's more than likely you just re-adjusting to not having that extra pedal over there.

Just keep everything at a steady pace, and whatever control you had previously should return

[Cocaberry]

It is probably a good idea to master heel-up and heel-down on single pedal first before making the jump to double pedal.

Work on heel-up on single pedal for now. After you feel comfortable with that make sure you master heel-up and heel-down for the other foot. After you master heel-up and down for both feet separately, putting it all together should be easy.

[DxRocker]

There is absolute zero difference between playing single or double bass. What you do with your right foot is what you do with your right foot. Period. Also the reason why I absolutely can't understand the phrase "playing heel up on double and heel down on single".

Why should the pedal you play make a difference in your technique?
What is so special about that pedal that makes you play differently on another? Isn't it also just a footboard with a spring attached to a beater? How are those mechanics any different?

Do you also play heel up on a "double" pedal when you are on the hats with your left foot? - wich makes it playing single obviously.

You say you have been playing double for the past 6 months and now need to play double what you used to play single...

That is very clear to me: you have been neglecting your main foot and have become lazy. Controlled drumming in any way is something you need to maintain. If you don't play a single paradiddle in 6 months, don't expect to be as fast in paradiddles as you were 6 months before...

It is not because you have that slave pedal to your left that you have to use it. Use it when you NEED it. If you think there is a certain thing that you should be able to play single, but can't. Don't take the easy road and play it double... But practice till you can play it single!!

[jalel]

Simple solution to the thread starter's problem: Practice rudiments with your feet. Make sure you're aiming for control. Set the click to 40-45bpm and have at it with flam taps, paradiddles, flam paradiddles, doubles, etc......

Also, work on quintuplets, sextuplets, and septuplets...

[dumbassdrummer]

"Simple solution to the thread starter's problem: Practice rudiments with your feet. Make sure you're aiming for control. Set the click to 40-45bpm and have at it with flam taps, paradiddles, flam paradiddles, doubles, etc......

Also, work on quintuplets, sextuplets, and septuplets..."

Yep, this is the best thing you can do. Practice for control and evenness and you'll, in time, see real improvement.

[Quinto]

his technique is changing because most who play double pedal lack dynamics on the bass drum, and they dont need to do doubles on one foot anymore, unless using that double bass technique, so his technique is probably getting messed up because hes not using certain techniques any more

[Josiah]

it's never the hardware.


Heel down sucks for modern drumset playing. It's just not useable for most settings.

TS here's what you do. Learn all the techniques Hell up, down, flat foot, heel-toe.. then forget em and play. You can't hurt your feet with a kick drum, so just play the notes.

One thing though, be sure you are actually playing. So many begginers these days are just barely tapping hte drum and wondering why they don't have rebound or the techniques don't work.
Reallylay into that thing, it's a kick drum.

All that said and done though, here is how you play kick drum - pick your leg up, let it drop on the pedal.

[Caleb3221]

This is an observation I have, no data to back it up, but I've noticed that people who change naturally when they switch to a double pedal have a balance problem SOMEWHERE. What was said about the right foot applies to the left too-what you do with your left foot is what you do with your left foot. Yes, there are minor differences, but you shouldn't have to switch from heel up to heel down or vice versa when switching between the two. I have a feeling that people switch to heel up on doble bass because it forces you to balance, and you can't just lean on either foot while playing. This would indicate that you are not balanced in normal playing. I'm sort of rambling here, but basicaly-make sure your balance is good(Basic test-sit straight up in your throne with both feet off the ground, just above pedal level. If you are not comfortable, something is wrong).

[DxRocker]

his technique is changing because most who play double pedal lack dynamics on the bass drum

Isn't that a generalised comment... :rolleyes:

That's ridiculous.

Like I said: playing double is no different then playing single. Same mechanics, same techniques.

If you don't use dynamics on the bassdrum, is that a reason to blame your double pedal?

If you can't go as fast as you would like with your right foot, is it right to blame it on the double pedal,

It's just another tool, just another thing to hit...

It doesn't change the way nor the technique you use to hit it.

If you are gonna use that double pedal to play a simple double stroke in some hip-hop-ish beat... who's to blame? You and your laziness or the double pedal?

[some jive turkey]

it's never the hardware.

I was going to say 99.9% of the time it's not that hardware, but we can round it up to "never".


Heel down sucks for modern drumset playing. It's just not useable for most settings.

I disagree.

Try this: buy Ted Reed's syncopation, and play through half the book with just your right foot on the kick drum. Accents and everything. Drink two beers and call me in the morning.(kidding,... don't ...really)

[Josiah]

Well you can dissagree all you want.


I assure you, 100%, your kick will never be heard playing in a live show using heel down. UNless you mic it and crank the crap outta that thing. Even then you run into issues... not to mention no tone.

Kick drums are BIG drums, with BIG heads. They require MORE force then toms do to generate the comprable tones and volume to be dynamically even around the kit. You simply can not achieve that with heel down. You'd need incredible ankle muscles.. if it was possible.


Here's the other reason. Why should use muscle to work so hard, when you can use gravity to work a fraction of that, and get 10x the amount of sound out of the drum?

[crazyguy832]

Jos is right. The only time heel-down has been sufficient for me personally live was in an acoustic gig I played in my church a month or so ago. Even then, I was hammering that thing to get a decent sound. 90% of the time everything else is mic'd and I need to go heel-up or else it's just too quiet.

That and I find it easier to get a consistant sound.

*shrugs*

Heel-down is pwnage for ghosts, though.

[Drummer300btx]

Yeah i mainly see heel down for jazz where the bass drum is alot smaller and its not meant to drive the beat.

[joe_04_04]

im the same way..single bass down and double bass up..but if im doing a double with the single pedal while working the hi hat..i just go up into heel up..but i dont have any problems that your saying so idk man

[crazyguy832]

Dynamic variation at all when you switch?

[1aDrummer07]

not sure if this is an advanced question but i'm pretty sure its not basic...:confused:

anyway, lately i've had alot of trouble controlling my single bass. I'd been playing a single bass pedal for about 2 years, and now i've been playing on a double bass pedal for about 6 months. I play single bass heel down and double bass heel up because thats how i feel comfortable, but lately i've noticed that when tryin to play some of my single bass stuff i dont have much control or speed, and stuff i used to be able to play on a single bass i now need to play on a double (sorry about draggin that on)

anyway, do you think its a problem with my technique or do you think it might be a hardware problem or something???

i was thinking about getting a doulbe bass to but then i thought how i would use it...and it would make my single bass lazy....

my best guess is that you are slacking off in ur single bass chops because you have a double to add that double note...not too sure...i would suggest learning doulbe bass heel down and practice do ur single bass exercises w/ both feet instead of just the right

[Erik6387]

I would also suggest learning double bass heel down. It has much more dynamic potential. Heel up is generally all stomping while heel down can go from feathing to just about as loud as heel up. Also, if you feel like you don't have control with the single bass anymore, I doubt you have much control with double bass.

-Erik

[Josiah]

I would also suggest learning double bass heel down. It has much more dynamic potential. Heel up is generally all stomping while heel down can go from feathing to just about as loud as heel up. Also, if you feel like you don't have control with the single bass anymore, I doubt you have much control with double bass.


That's TOTAL crap. You can play just as soft heel up, but you can NOT play as loud heel down.


The second part is true however.


To the TS. Just takes practice. Most people don't put enough force into the kick drum (this talk of feathering it only belongs for jazz and small acoustic settings), most the time the Kick Drum should be 2nd loudest to the Snare drum in any mix.

Also being a big drum, using a mechanical device, with thicker heads. You need to put some real power into it to make the drumr eally sing and to get the physics to work in your favor. Also it's called authority in your notes.

[Erik6387]

That's TOTAL crap. You can play just as soft heel up, but you can NOT play as loud heel down.


The second part is true however.


To the TS. Just takes practice. Most people don't put enough force into the kick drum (this talk of feathering it only belongs for jazz and small acoustic settings), most the time the Kick Drum should be 2nd loudest to the Snare drum in any mix.

Also being a big drum, using a mechanical device, with thicker heads. You need to put some real power into it to make the drumr eally sing and to get the physics to work in your favor. Also it's called authority in your notes.
I can play just as loud heel down as I can heel up with my springs extremely loose like they are. Heel down is just much more dynamic. If you can honestly get just as much dynamic playing heel up then good for you.

Personally, I never play heel up anymore. I either play heel down or flat footed. I feel playing flat footed offers more control than heel up, and it's far more relaxed.

[Cocaberry]

I can play just as loud heel down as I can heel up with my springs extremely loose like they are. Heel down is just much more dynamic. If you can honestly get just as much dynamic playing heel up then good for you.


So you are saying that your ankle can provide just as much power as your ankle+weight of the rest of your leg?

Get outta here. Now.

[Erik6387]

Bass drums can only be so loud. Yes, I can play heel down at about the same volume. When you stomp you don't necessarily get a louder sound. You get an extremely punchy sound. The drum can only be so loud. I use single ply heads all around and no muffling. It's very possible to play just as loud heel down if you work on it.

[Josiah]

Bass drums can only be so loud. Yes, I can play heel down at about the same volume. When you stomp you don't necessarily get a louder sound. You get an extremely punchy sound. The drum can only be so loud. I use single ply heads all around and no muffling. It's very possible to play just as loud heel down if you work on it.

Yup. That's true. I've had mine messured at 116 db from 20" away and 18" up.I highly doubt you could produce that kind of SPL with just your ankle. And no way you could pull that off for a 40 min rock set.
I know a kick drum can go louder, but then it starts to choke.

We don't encourage players to work any harder then you need to. Why would anyone want too?


That's besides the basic issue here man -

You just can't play Rage Against the Machine heel down.

[isp_of_doom]

i never thought jos would be into RATM.

You are still saying heel down is important to learn right? to get more muscle groups in time and controllable right? (thats the idea i've been working on.. be able to control the pedal heel-down, heel-up, low down on the pedal, high up on the pedal.)

Flat footed would be the same as hip flexor yes?

[Erik6387]

While I'm not much of a John Bonham fan...Heel down worked for him, and he was one of the first hard rock drummers. Of course, I never heard Led Zeppelin in a setting without a miked drumset, so they could have cranked the bass drum volume for all I know. Based on that, it appears it can work in a rock setting with long sets. Now I just need to recall a good metal drummer that plays heel down as well. :P

[Josiah]

I got a video of Zep playing Communication Break down that came on one of my zepplin discs. John is deff not playing heel down. He also has a double bass pedal.

That's besides the fact, it's a fallacy in reason. You can't take a specific and make a generalization.


RATM is one of my favorite bands. Covering 'Bombtrack' in front of a 5k+ crowd is one of my best live memories.

[Erik6387]

I got a video of Zep playing Communication Break down that came on one of my zepplin discs. John is deff not playing heel down. He also has a double bass pedal.

That's besides the fact, it's a fallacy in reason. You can't take a specific and make a generalization.


RATM is one of my favorite bands. Covering 'Bombtrack' in front of a 5k+ crowd is one of my best live memories.
You're actually very correct. I just watched a video on YouTube and he was heel up. :thumb: Not what I heard before. And I know it's besides the fact anyway.

That's cool that you've played in front of large crowds. The only gigs where I've played drumset so far besides my old universities marching band were for joke bands.

[Cocaberry]

The only gigs where I've played drumset so far besides my old universities marching band were for joke bands.

Part of the joke of those joke bands is that you try to play heel down for volume and power. Heel UP is for volume and power. Quit trying to argue and go practice it.

[Erik6387]

Part of the joke of those joke bands is that you try to play heel down for volume and power. Heel UP is for volume and power. Quit trying to argue and go practice it.
Thanks for the sarcasm, but I actually played heel up for those gigs. My heel down playing is something I've only been developing for the past month or so. For years I was heel up and then flat foot. I don't play heel down for volume and power, but I find it easier to achieve taps and accents with. It depends on the gig as well. If I'm playing music that's just LOUD LOUD LOUD then I'll be more likely to play flat footed.

[DillingerEscp]

you aint gonna find a good metal drummer playing heel down... and if you do.. we should email him and tell him that he could be 1000 times better if he played heel up.

[breakinben_freak]

Thanks for the advice guys!

Since, I've actually changed my technique, i find that playin with my heel slightly up i have a lot more control and speed, and its also helped with my double kicks aswell.

Keep the advice comin tho!

[red n black]

People wouldn't have troubles with DBPs if they used their hi-hat foot.


Goddammit.


:p

[Josiah]

So true!

[Erik6387]

you aint gonna find a good metal drummer playing heel down... and if you do.. we should email him and tell him that he could be 1000 times better if he played heel up.
John Longstreth isn't good?

http://bosticman.com/bostic/videos/john/john1.wmv

[Carn]

I believe Max from Krisiun also plays heel down.

In the end it doesnt really matter, as long as you can play the desired notes at your desired volume.

[SadStairway]

I find that al the contrast between heel down and heel up becomes irrelevant in an actual playing situation. I find that I just end up playing whatever feels comfortable and appropriate for the situation, thats why its important to be comfortable playing the kick pedal in different positions.

[Denny]

I didnt read all of the replies, but im sure this isn't the first time it's been mentioned: Double bass pedals make you lazy. Not always, but in most cases people stop worrying about their single foot, just because the left one is there. Take your left pedal off for a while and get comfortable with doing things with one foot. Then bring the left one in and work it into your playing, only using it for things that you absolutely can't use one foot for. Thats what I did after I realized that I couldnt do anything interesting on a single pedal kit. Pathetic, I know. But I realized the error of my ways and I've recovered. : )

[TommoUK]

Personally i would try and master the heel up position with a single pedal as well so your not always switching. Plus i think heel up is a better technique to use especially if you incoperate the heel toe method used by a lot of proffesional drummers such as steve smith, tony royster jr. and thomas lang

[mscmkr]

ok im pretty sure i know whats happening here. it happend to me. i played single bass drum for a few years and had a great right foot. i played heal down and could do just about anything. then i purchased a DW 9002 pedal set and things changed. ALOT!! it was the first time i had ever played double bass before.

its more natural to play heel up with both feet while playing double bass. i do believe this is due to balance. when this happpens you start to use completely different muscles in your right foot and leg. these muscles are not built up like the ones youve been using for heel down playing. also, the technique for playing heel up is completely different then heel down. when you play heel up your lifting then dropping your foot. when your playing heel down your pushing down then releasing back up.

you need to learn correct technique for heel up playing with both feet. like several others on here have said, you need to build those new muscles up to get that speed and control back. im still working on this myself and its been 2 years. i do believe that its worth it to get good at double bass playing. the things you can do with them is fantastic.

good luck and happy playing....MSCMKR


and as for Josiah's comment about heel down technique being worthless, tell that to Thomas Lang. he uses heel down a great deal. if you watch his Creative Control video he uses it throughout the video for everything from groove stuff to incredible speed.

lets open our minds everyone. just because someone doesnt play the same way you do doesnt mean its wrong.