Is this a polyrythm?

[samualbc]

After reading numerous threads about polyrythm's i think i got the gist of it.

Is this awesome beat by Danny Carey (Eulogy) an example of a polyrythm?

H |XxxXxxXxxXxxXxxX|xxXxxXxxXxxXxxXx|xXxxXxxXxxXxxXx x|XxxXxxXxxxX~~~~-|
S |----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-----o-----|
B |oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-o------|
|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

If it is, then is this alternative also a polyrythm (i have my doubts about this one):


H |X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|
S |----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-------o---|
B |oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|
|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

If they are, how would you describe them?

[steeldrummer11]

A polyrhythm is andthing with more than one rhythm going on at the same time. Im pretty sure.
so yeah.
if my theory is correct lol.

[moogoogaipan]

no, those aren't polyrhythms.

[Leprechauns1021]

no, those aren't polyrhythms.
you might want to clarify yourself for the TS

[Sabian4015]

I thought that a polyrythm was more than one beat being played at the same time(?). Perhaps I was wrong...

MooGoo seems to always know what he's talking about though.

[crazyguy832]

Two or more constricting rhythms.

So, something like...

H|xXx-XxXx-XxXx-Xx|Xx-XxXx-XxXx-XxX|xXx-XxXx-XxXx-Xx|Xx-XxXx-XxXx-XxX|
S|-oo-o--o----oo-o|--o----oo-o--o--|--oo-o--o----oo-|o--o----oo-o--o-|
B|o---o---o---o---|o---o---o---o---|o---o---o---o---|o---o---o---o---|
c|1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a|1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a|1e+a2e+a3e+a4e a|1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a|

Is a polyrhythm I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). There's a set pattern for each limb and they just do that. The hi-hat pattern resolves itself every 2 bars and the snare pattern, well... it'll take a while to resolve itself. The bass is just quarters.

The point is, the hi-hats and snare are playing two rhythm that don't interact (in they way a normal beat would) and are played seperately.

[raz0r]

The first one in the original post is a Polyrhythm. Hats are in 3, with the bass/snare in 2. Simple 2:3 polyrhythm.
The second one isn't, the hats are phrased in 3+3+2 for each bar, with an uneven accent pattern, therefore, not a polyrythm

[dairyairman]

a polyrhythm is more than just two beats played together. it's more like two beats with fundamentally different time signatures played together, if that makes any sense. for example, two beats both in 4/4 time played together is not a polyrhythm, but a beat in 3/4 played against a beat in 4/4 is a polyrhythm. there's a good (but very technical) definition on this page:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcz/Polyrhythm.html

[XAQ]

according to "the drummer's bible" the first one classifies as an "over the bar" polyrhythm. the second one is just not because like someone said the cymbal is phrased 3 3 and 2 which adds to 8 eighth notes.

[Jezen]

a polyrhythm is more than just two beats played together. it's more like two beats with fundamentally different time signatures played together, if that makes any sense. for example, two beats both in 4/4 time played together is not a polyrhythm, but a beat in 3/4 played against a beat in 4/4 is a polyrhythm. there's a good (but very technical) definition on this page:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcz/Polyrhythm.html

Oh god here we go again. I thought I already defined a polyrhythm near-perfectly!!

[jalel]

^You did but people refuse to use the search function. Probably 10+ threads on this subject. Not to mention the all powerful google search engine:rolleyes:

[Jezen]

a subdivison(1) won't poly with a subdivision(2) that is the same value as subdivison(1); or if subdivision(2) is a factor of subdivision(1), or has a value of 1.


This is my definition.

[samualbc]

Thanks guys, danney carey has a polyrythm.

The second beat (my easier 'watered-down' beat) isnt. Just as i thought. Still sounds good though, ill move on to danney's when i get some skill.

So it is a 3:2 polyrythm. does this mean if the hi-hats were accented on every fifth note then it would be a 5:2 polyrythm?

[moogoogaipan]

The first one in the original post is a Polyrhythm. Hats are in 3, with the bass/snare in 2. Simple 2:3 polyrhythm.

no it's not.
It's not heard that way. Though you hear a triplet sounding pattern over the snare/bass line, it's still written in 16ths and sound in unison with every note. If he had written that hi-hat line as triplets, then it would be a polyrhythm. so While it gives the illusion of a polyrhythm, it isn't.

[Futuro]

Yeah accenting every 3rd or 5th note doesnt make it a 3:4 or 5:4 rhythm.

No different than accenting every 4 or 6 notes (Besides the obvious)

[moogoogaipan]

according to "the drummer's bible" the first one classifies as an "over the bar" polyrhythm. the second one is just not because like someone said the cymbal is phrased 3 3 and 2 which adds to 8 eighth notes.
I don't know how you intepreted the drumming bible, but that first one is not a polyrhythm... at all.

Neither of them are, but you insist on arguing.

let me go on to explain how.
It's sixteenth. Stop paying attention to the accents. That doesn't matter as of now.
It's written as sixteenth notes (duple time), over a duple meter snare/bass pattern. There's nothing poly-rhythmic about that. Just because the accents create a unique combination does not make it in a different meter.

[Jezen]

This is where you have to interpret space.

No polyrhythm, just regulated accents at an odd interval:

1|OoOoOoOoOoOo|
2|O--O--O--O--|


Now take the unaccented notes away, and you get a polyrhythm:

1|O-O-O-O-O-O-|
2|O--O--O--O--|

[moogoogaipan]

True, but you have to take into account that what you've written is nothing like Danny Carey's groove.

His bass drum groove isn't evenly spaced and the notes still line up.

Using this theory, your top one isn't a polyrhythm, but your bottom one is.

Why? I'm not sure exactly... but I gather that once you remove the non-accented notes, then it loses its grasp on 3/4 and could actually become 6/8... theres no real solidity to keep it as either.

[XAQ]

I don't know how you intepreted the drumming bible, but that first one is not a polyrhythm... at all.

Neither of them are, but you insist on arguing.

let me go on to explain how.
It's sixteenth. Stop paying attention to the accents. That doesn't matter as of now.
It's written as sixteenth notes (duple time), over a duple meter snare/bass pattern. There's nothing poly-rhythmic about that. Just because the accents create a unique combination does not make it in a different meter.

from "The Drummer's Bible" by Mick Berry and Jason Gianni:

there are two main types of polyrhythms: rhythms which carry "over the bar" and rhythms that exist "within the bar"
"over the bar" rhythms are those in which the standard pulse does not change, yet displaced accents, syncopation, and/or note groupings create the illusion of a different pulse or an alternate time signature coexisting with the primary pulse/ time signature. As an example, if a drummer was playing straight 4/4 pattern and a bassist was playing a pattern consisting of five quarter notes, a 5 versus 4 "over the bar" polyrhythm would result. :wave:

[samualbc]

oh well..

I was convinced carey's beat was a 3:2 polyrythm. If it's not a polyrythm then there has to be some other definition for a beat with the 'mismatching accents'. Either way it sounds great and im finding it challenging to learn. i have to take my stupid limb independence to another level.

Cheers for the help!

[Byron]

that is kind of like a hemiola but I wouldn't consider it a polyrhythm, it is just interesting phrasing that contrasts with the beat, keep learning this though it will make polyrhythms easier to play. Actually maybe just the accents are polyrhythmic to the pulse which is synomous with the rest of the groove so it is kind of a more congested way to play a relatively simple polyrhythm. (it is not 3:2, it is 4:3)

[DillingerEscp]

After reading numerous threads about polyrythm's i think i got the gist of it.

Is this awesome beat by Danny Carey (Eulogy) an example of a polyrythm?

H |XxxXxxXxxXxxXxxX|xxXxxXxxXxxXxxXx|xXxxXxxXxxXxxXx x|XxxXxxXxxxX~~~~-|
S |----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-----o-----|
B |oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-o------|
|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

If it is, then is this alternative also a polyrythm (i have my doubts about this one):


H |X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|X-x-x-X-x-x-X-x-|
S |----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-------o---|----o-------o---|
B |oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|oo-----o-oo-----|
|1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + |

If they are, how would you describe them?


the first one is most certainly a polyrhythm. a cool one at that.

btw, its a very simple polyrhythm, but still a polyrhythm at that.

[Sunshine]

Every time I see your name (^), I just want to say "HEY PLAN, WHAT'S UP?"

Totally off-topic, I know. But I had to get it out of me.

[Caleb3221]

XAQ-that says nothing of the DRUMMER playing a polyrhythm-in that example the polyrhythm is between the drummer and the bassist, not the drummer himself.

[moogoogaipan]

Byron, I agree with you, I was gonna say perhaps a hemiola, but it's not quite one. Though I don't think it's a polyrhythm.

[Byron]

Byron, I agree with you, I was gonna say perhaps a hemiola, but it's not quite one. Though I don't think it's a polyrhythm.
It certainly isn't straight out a polyrhythm however it does appear as though Danny Carey understood the concept and applied to his drumming without being to forthright with it.

[DillingerEscp]

Every time I see your name (^), I just want to say "HEY PLAN, WHAT'S UP?"

Totally off-topic, I know. But I had to get it out of me.
Lol. dude say it. itll be good. Ill respond to that.

[Sunshine]

Haha, you probably get that all the time though.

[DillingerEscp]

pol·y·rhythm Audio pronunciation of "Polyrhythm" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-rthm)
n. Music

The use or an instance of simultaneous contrasting rhythms.

if you were to play just the hihat in those tabs. you would hear a deffinate 3/4 feel. If you just played the bass drum and snare, it would most certainly have a 4/4 feel...

well, it wouldnt even be a "feel" it would be those time sigs ... it is a polyrhythm... very simple one. but it is one.

[DillingerEscp]

Haha, you probably get that all the time though.
lol, to be honest, I usually just get. "OMG Dillinger escape plan is a ****ty noise band. youire gay. ban him..."

Not really on this site. but other forums. thats what usually happens.

[Sunshine]

Wow. I'm sorry. People blow =/

[moogoogaipan]

pol·y·rhythm Audio pronunciation of "Polyrhythm" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-rthm)
n. Music

The use or an instance of simultaneous contrasting rhythms.

if you were to play just the hihat in those tabs. you would hear a deffinate 3/4 feel. If you just played the bass drum and snare, it would most certainly have a 4/4 feel...

well, it wouldnt even be a "feel" it would be those time sigs ... it is a polyrhythm... very simple one. but it is one.
We could debate the various nuances of this for the next couple of months. It could go either way...

Of course, the fact that it could be heard in 3/4 is perfectly reasonable... but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't sound like 3/4. It sounds like 16ths with a displaced hi-hat sizzle and the bass pattern underneath it isn't triplets or some other funky rhythm, they align perfectly underneath each other. Therefore lending it to not be a polyrhythm.

[Josiah]

well, it wouldnt even be a "feel" it would be those time sigs ... it is a polyrhythm... very simple one. but it is one.


It is impossible to play multiple time signatures at once. That goes against the very deffinition of what a time signature is.

[DillingerEscp]

It is impossible to play multiple time signatures at once. That goes against the very deffinition of what a time signature is.

? listen to meshuggah.

its not impossible. It doesnt go against the very deffinition of what a time signature is.

[DillingerEscp]

We could debate the various nuances of this for the next couple of months. It could go either way...

I agree. I guess it kind of does depend on how you look at it.

you could say its a polyrhythm because it has two different patterns that have a different time sig feel too it.

[Josiah]

I've transcribed Meshuggah myself. In ear training classes in one of hte worlds best musical schools.

There is no multiple time signatures being played by the same instrument at the same time. It's an impossibility.

time signature
n. Music A sign placed on a staff to indicate the meter, commonly a numerical fraction of which the numerator is the number of beats per measure and the denominator represents the kind of note getting one beat.

It is impossible to have 2 of those at once for drums.

Show me one theory book or musical transcription publication that uses 2 time signatures for the same instrument. You'll be lookin forever because it doesn't exist.

Do you have any musical theory training? Gone to college for it? Taken any higher education classes in music?

Or are you just pullin it outta your butt?


Here's a great starting place though - www.musictheory.net

While you're at it, Meshuggah. has already been professionally transcribed, and those have been published. Low and behold... no multiple time signatures for the same instrument.

BTW - When it comes to odd time music, odd phrasing, modulation, metric modulation, imposed rhythms, etc.. there is FAR more complex music then meshuggah.

[DillingerEscp]

http://www.pbs.org/brubeck/theMusic/polyrhythmPolytonality.htm
btw, good article.

[Josiah]

Also.. I'd just like to point out the little fact that you are over complicating something that is very simple.. who knows why?

Messugah has been transcribed many times in many publications. It's all in A (SINGULAR!) given time signature that makes the piece the best easiest to read. Though it could all be written out in 4/4 and the Key of C. That would make reading it somewhat difficult, so people tend to pick the best place to drop the bar lines for readability. And the best key signature because it sucks to read 100's of accidentals all over the place.

[Futuro]

Whatta mean you cant play in two different time signatures at the same time!?

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/156/54445li.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Im still working on the entire "making the 4/4 start its next bar while the 5/4 finishes note value in the first bar"

Oh yeah, nevermind that is just a stupid idea.

[DillingerEscp]

josiah, read the article, at the very end. that is what I meant. I dont mean written music.

the very last paragraph.

calm down.

[DillingerEscp]

Also.. I'd just like to point out the little fact that you are over complicating something that is very simple.. who knows why?

Messugah has been transcribed many times in many publications. It's all in A (SINGULAR!) given time signature that makes the piece the best easiest to read. Though it could all be written out in 4/4 and the Key of C. That would make reading it somewhat difficult, so people tend to pick the best place to drop the bar lines for readability. And the best key signature because it sucks to read 100's of accidentals all over the place.
I know. Ive taken tons of music theory courses.

[Byron]

"one time felt in each hand"-last paragraph in that article
he is not playing in two time signatures, he is creating the illusion by manipulating the feel

[DillingerEscp]

although... you can take a gander at this.

http://www.ccarh.org/publications/reprints/ieee/TYPE62.HTM


A composer talks a little on simultaneous time sigs.
http://brakelblog.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_brakelblog_archive.html


Also talks about a piece
http://kalvos.org/bazzr507.html

at bottom, talks about sigfrid using two simultaneous time signatures.
http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/show_score.pl?scoreid=86622

I mean, I could go on all day. I got plenty of these bookmarked.

[Josiah]

Hahaha man you are a fool! We aren't talking about for an entire piece of music with different instruments playing different time signatures. Of course that is doable!



You can not have multiple time signatures for one drummer.


Show me one theory book or musical transcription publication that uses 2 time signatures for the same instrument. As you describe..

[DillingerEscp]

"one time felt in each hand"-last paragraph in that article
he is not playing in two time signatures, he is creating the illusion by manipulating the feel
Yeah, but originally, thats what I meant. playing two time sigs at once. it gives it that feel. thats all I originally meant, no more. no less.

[DillingerEscp]

Obviouslly... haha that's why you are spewing crap outta your mouth about music theory. Haha i love the calm down comment, that's so see through man.. hahaha nice try though.

Anyway.. just answer the question, it's very simple. Either you are full of it, or not. So prove what you say beyond simply just YOU saying it.
I got over 1,000+ music theory textbooks and publications that confirm what I talk about theory..


Show me one theory book or musical transcription publication that uses 2 time signatures for the same instrument. As you describe..

Just one.

Did you not just see my post ? Did you read what I had originally said ? You are blowing this way out of proportion, so yet again, calm down.

[Josiah]

Moron.. haha you have no idea the state of my mind. You think because I put bold it means I'm upset?!

It's because you can't read. Nor can you use a forum!! HAHHAA what's that like the 5th double post?! HAHHAA haha oh boy i love idiots.. hahaha

Here's a lil advice.. you make yourself look pretty friggin foolish when you double post all the time.


Yes, we all see what you say. And that's why you are the only one who thinks you are right. And you're not... but please, contiune on. Just let me go get my gators first.. and calm down son! your hasty double postings belay your sense of urgency more then you care to admit.


Let's rehash... so yes you can have multi instruments playign different time signatures in the same piece. No, you can not have a given instrument playing multi time signatures on it's own at the same time.

[DillingerEscp]

Moron.. haha you have no idea the state of my mind. You think because I put bold it means I'm upset?!

It's because you can't read. Nor can you use a forum!! HAHHAA what's that like the 5th double post?! HAHHAA haha oh boy i love idiots.. hahaha

Here's a lil advice.. you make yourself look pretty friggin foolish when you double post all the time.


Yes, we all see what you say. And that's why you are the only one who thinks you are right. And you're not... but please, contiune on. Just let me go get my gators first..


Let's rehash... so yes you can have multi instruments playign different time signatures in the same piece. No, you can not have a given instrument playing multi time signatures on it's own at the same time.


typical you, always attacking the person. I shouldnt even waste my time with you.

You took everything in this thread that I said way out of context, and I dont know how you did that.

I was only ever talking about playing on a drumset, obviously you couldnt play in two different time sigs. on the sax,
I was talking about limb independence. One hand is playing something that is 5/4, the other hand is playing something in 3/4, and the feet are just doing 4/4.
It was that concept I was talking about.

Oh yeah, and Id go so far as to say that theres a lot of people on here who know you can play a kit and have two different time sigs go on at once. Theyre probably all sick of you however.

[Byron]

Yeah, but originally, thats what I meant. playing two time sigs at once. it gives it that feel. thats all I originally meant, no more. no less.
you are not actually playing two time sigs, you are creating the illusion that they are two going at once, the feel is not created by that, the feel creates that illusion that you are so enthralled by.

[Sunshine]

Moron.. haha you have no idea the state of my mind. You think because I put bold it means I'm upset?!

It's because you can't read. Nor can you use a forum!! HAHHAA what's that like the 5th double post?! HAHHAA haha oh boy i love idiots.. hahaha

Ad hominem.

Not to mention you look no more intelligent than an elementary school child.

But whatever.

[raz0r]

Oh yeah, and Id go so far as to say that theres a lot of people on here who know you can play a kit and have two different time sigs go on at once. Theyre probably all sick of you however.
And they'd be wrong too.

Even if the whole board agreed with you, you'd still be wrong.

[Caleb3221]

Honestly, DillingerEscp, Josiah is a complete asshole and his arguments are somewhat immature. But he's a correct asshole(as usual). There is no logical way to notate or think in two time signatures on one insturment. Mabye you could twist something out by anylyzing it after it had been played(mabye, can't really think of much of an example), but once again, this is illogically and ridiculously confusing something that could be rather simple.

[DillingerEscp]

you are not actually playing two time sigs, you are creating the illusion that they are two going at once, the feel is not created by that, the feel creates that illusion that you are so enthralled by.

you say tomato, I say tomatoe, or however youd spell it.

Dude though, I know what youre saying, and I agree. I just think in different terms really.

[DillingerEscp]

Honestly, DillingerEscp, Josiah is a complete spatula and his arguments are somewhat immature. But he's a correct spatula(as usual). There is no logical way to notate or think in two time signatures on one insturment. Mabye you could twist something out by anylyzing it after it had been played(mabye, can't really think of much of an example), but once again, this is illogically and ridiculously confusing something that could be rather simple.
I know, Id never write something out in two time sig's, but I think of some polyrhythms as two of my limbs being independent, playing two diff. time sigs, then I feel when the resolve back into it, thats just what I think of when I utilize them, and its what works for me.

and not to keep this argument going, but go look at one of those links I posted above, it has a small piece of notation from a piece, it has two seperate time signatures written out, going on at once. Not saying that Id write it that way, but it can be done, and I wouldnt fault that composer for doing it.

now its time for bed, I get up in 3 hours to catch a plane to Indiana, bye guys. I lovey ou.

[Electric Requiem]

Like what has been said before, time signatures are just something you can use to interpret music so it is easier to read and play. I may seem foolish and ignorant, but why cant we have one hand in one time signature and another in a different sig? Are the mighty musical notation police going to come to my house and arrest me because I'm thinking outside the box (for good or bad)? Why the hell cant I have two different time signatures going on at once for one instrument (especially one where limbs can be acting independently of one another)? It may not be practical to write or play that way but who are you to say it cant be done? We can write any note in any time signature, its just a pain in the ***. Time signatures are not physical objects, they just help us read and play the music.

Just because something is not practical does not mean it cannot be done.

[Futuro]

I know, Id never write something out in two time sig's, but I think of some polyrhythms as two of my limbs being independent, playing two diff. time sigs, then I feel when the resolve back into it, thats just what I think of when I utilize them, and its what works for me.

and not to keep this argument going, but go look at one of those links I posted above, it has a small piece of notation from a piece, it has two seperate time signatures written out, going on at once. Not saying that Id write it that way, but it can be done, and I wouldnt fault that composer for doing it.

now its time for bed, I get up in 3 hours to catch a plane to Indiana, bye guys. I lovey ou.
It was showing the accent pattern for a compound meter. One happens before the other not at the same time.

[Jezen]

the first one is most certainly a polyrhythm. a cool one at that.
btw, its a very simple polyrhythm, but still a polyrhythm at that.

NO IT IS NOT!

God...

You know you wouldn't really ever find a piece composed for an orchestra, with different instruments playing in different time sigs. The conductor just wouldn't know what to do.

"Upbeat to bar 91"

Then everyone starts in the wrong place.

Also he couldn't count it for everyone.

[LiquidTensionTheatre]

although... you can take a gander at this.

http://www.ccarh.org/publications/reprints/ieee/TYPE62.HTM


A composer talks a little on simultaneous time sigs.
http://brakelblog.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_brakelblog_archive.html


Also talks about a piece
http://kalvos.org/bazzr507.html

at bottom, talks about sigfrid using two simultaneous time signatures.
http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/show_score.pl?scoreid=86622

I mean, I could go on all day. I got plenty of these bookmarked.

If anyone cared to check these out, they would see that DillengerEscp was right; one of them mentions a pianist playing two seperate staves, each with a different time signature, simultaneously.

QED; since pianists play their instrument using two limbs (I'm not going to count the use of pedals) and they can play two simultaneous, different, time signatures, I'm fairly sure that a drummer, with 4 limbs, could manage it. 2 limbs per time signature, you could say. Or 3 limbs on one signature, the fourth limb playing a different time signature. One limb to each time signature.

Even if, by some quirk of logic, a drummer could not play different simultaneous time signatures, that was not the argument. It was that you could not play two different simultaneous time signatures on one instrument. Which, clearly, you can.

Forum arguments are so annoying when people refuse to believe they're wrong :angry:

~~

[Jezen]

You could play what would seem to be different sigs at the same time, but you can't notate that.

See my post above.

[LiquidTensionTheatre]

Didn't see your post before I posted, BB.

Well you're right, to my knowledge you can't notate simultaneous time signatures on a single stave.

I suppose you could have different time signatures in the treble and bass staves. Or, as mentioned in DillengerEscp's links, you could read from two different staves.

Notation aside, the concept of PLAYING two time signatures simultaneously is a simple one to me.

I suppose it comes down a lot to interpretation; I can see why people would think say, a quarter note 5/4 polyrhythm is in two different time signatures as opposed to playing phrased quintuplets over common quarter notes. Admittedly, I don't condone that idea as it would mean playing at two different tempos in those seperate time signatures.

But to me, if you can tap out a pattern on one limb, or indeed two limbs (as we have four to work with), and that is said to be in a time signature, say 4/4, then you can surely do exactly the same with a different pattern on your remaining limbs. If you put the two together, you would be playing two different patterns on four limbs. From there it's quite an easy idea to play a pattern in 6/8 between two limbs and play a pattern in 5/4 between two other limbs. Now if you played those patterns together... Presto, you would have one musician playing in two time signatures simultaneously.

Again, a lot of it comes down to interpretation.

~~

[Jezen]

But you can notate any 6/8 or 5/4 or 25/16 or 107/32 pattern through 4/4. You simply don't notate in multiple time signiatures. Otherwise, what is the point of notation? It is to simply communicate musical ideas. Why complicate it?

It's like Ahead drumsticks. Sticks are basic, because you do a very basic thing with them. No need to make anything more advanced or complicated.

Det Nosnip has some really advanced ideas going on in his head all the time, but can he play them? I saw a video of one of his "compositions" with groups of 5's and 7's, and he's trying to do this tom thing with mallets ect...

In my honest opinion, with no offense to the guy, it really wasn't very good. The term 'musician' doesn't translate to 'nerd'.

[CARMEN77]

^^

Why would you bring up someone in this thread who wasnt involved?

PS: stop trying to act like Josiah...

[LiquidTensionTheatre]

But you can notate any 6/8 or 5/4 or 25/16 or 107/32 pattern through 4/4. You simply don't notate in multiple time signiatures. Otherwise, what is the point of notation? It is to simply communicate musical ideas. Why complicate it?

It's like Ahead drumsticks. Sticks are basic, because you do a very basic thing with them. No need to make anything more advanced or complicated.

Det Nosnip has some really advanced ideas going on in his head all the time, but can he play them? I saw a video of one of his "compositions" with groups of 5's and 7's, and he's trying to do this tom thing with mallets ect...

In my honest opinion, with no offense to the guy, it really wasn't very good. The term 'musician' doesn't translate to 'nerd'.

Ah, we're talking about different things. I was talking about PLAYING in multiple time signatures, which was the topic of this thread.

Yeah you're right, you can't notate in multiple time signatures.

*sigh* One of my students uses aheads. She thinks they make her play better. I think I've put her right on that now, though.

And I'll agree that "musician" doesn't translate to "nerd". A musician is someone who plays music. If a musician wants to get nerdy, that's their prerogative IMO, I personally like to get pretty damn deep into music and am referred to (affectionately, I hope) as something of a nerd even amongst the people at my college.

I just posted because I thought DillengerESCP was correct in everything he said. My bad for misunderstanding your post though BB.

~~

EDIT: CARMEN77, who was trying to act like Josiah?

[Jezen]

Because he is a prime example of the topic at hand.

And if I wanted to be like Josiah, I probably would have said something like "No you ignorant moron, I can't believe how stupid you are, learn to read and remember that I am Josiah and I will always be worlds ahead of you, I have the best training around, I am god when compared with you..." ect.

EDIT: To Carmen77

[moogoogaipan]

lolz..

every single thread that isn't just random discussion goes through hell and back.

[Jezen]

I think it's jsut every thread about polyrhythms or time signiatures. People try and over-complicate them... Why?!

[LiquidTensionTheatre]

I think people think that if they talk about complicated things they don't fully understand, it makes them cleverer than if they just talk helpfully and accurately about less complicated things they do know about.

Gah.

~~

[Josiah]

And if I wanted to be like Josiah, I probably would have said something like "No you ignorant moron, I can't believe how stupid you are, learn to read and remember that I am Josiah and I will always be worlds ahead of you, I have the best training around, I am god when compared with you..." ect.



And if I wantted to be like you, I could make totally retarted statements like "it's physics, not math"

Get off your high horse, you insult and put down just as many people. Not to mention the hypocritcal nature of your statement itself.

"Yes, don't be like this guy and insult and put down people.. while I insult and put him down."


Riiiight.

[jalel]

:: sings "Why Can't We be Friends?" by War ::

[Sunshine]

Bah, it's an internet forum.

People can say whatever in hell they want and it can never hurt them because nobody here knows them in person.

So they can be as jack-assy as they want. Or as incorrect as they want. Or both. Or neither. And so on, etc.

[Jezen]

And if I wantted to be like you, I could make totally retarted statements like "it's physics, not math"

Get off your high horse, you insult and put down just as many people. Not to mention the hypocritcal nature of your statement itself.

"Yes, don't be like this guy and insult and put down people.. while I insult and put him down."


Riiiight.

Yeah, aside from the fact that I said "with no offence".

[bigbandbyrne]

so anyway.... poly rhythms... hmmm?

[Futuro]

so anyway.... poly rhythms... hmmm?
How did you get my email adress and why are you sending me spam emails?

[CARMEN77]

How did you get my email adress and why are you sending me spam emails?

Because you suck! That...and you just suck...

[raz0r]

How did you get my email adress and why are you sending me spam emails?
I was wondering the same thing...

[Chester]

^^

Why would you bring up someone in this thread who wasnt involved?

PS: stop trying to act like Josiah...
why are u acting so immature by bringing up erroneous information that doesnt have to do with the topic whatsoever, at least bb was talking ABOUT whats to be talked about in the thread. Its ok for some1 to disagree with you. Trust me, the world goes on.


But i think every1 is confused.

ppl like DilinngerEscp are saying that you can play 2 diff time signatures at the same time
but some1 like BB or Josiah is saying that you cant write them on musical paper that way, so they are not different time signatures. And like some1 else said, they are an illusion to make it feel like that, but they arent. Listen to the intro in "Mirror" by Dream Theater.
In this song, the gutiar and bass play 3 16th notes, then rest, so you could think of it as like this |xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx-|. Then Mike Portnoy opens with a drum beat that is basically like thiis |x--x--x--x--x--x|--x--x--x--x--x-|-x--x--x--x--x--|. Mike Portnoy is playing 16th notes here in 4/4. It just is arranged in a way to seem to get this idea of 3 in it. Why would you bother make confusion by having it in a different time signatue. This obviously would make no sense to write it in anything but 4/4. And to further clarify this, Mike Portnoy then goes to the normal accenting like this |x---x---x---x---|

|x--x--x--x--x--x||--x--x--x--x--x-||--x--x--x--x--x-|
|x---x---x---x---||x---x---x---x---||x---x---x---x---|
I don't think these are in different time signatures. According to how it is played in the song, it is picked up as 16th notes. I guess you could argue another way, but i dont think it would make sense to do that.

So therefore, I dont think it would be possible to play 2 time signatures in the SAME instrument.

I would like to see atranscribed example of how you would play two different time signatures in the same intrument.
and when you say this, would the two time signatures be at the same tempo? or at the right tempo so that the different signatures match up in length of duration. That would be just creating a polyrhythm really. And if you had the first example, they would mesh together, and would sound like 1 time signature.

like let me try to give examples, if you have it hte first way which i questioned about, it would be like this, say you play quarter notes:

||||1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a5e+a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a5e+a1e+a2e +a3e+a4e+a5e+a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a5e+a
5/4|x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---
4/4|x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x---
||||1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e +a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a1e+a2e+a3e+a4e+a

I know that since they are quarter notes, then they are obviously going ot be the same, ubt if you added different notes in with each hand or whatever, then its still going to sound like 1 time signature.


now the other posibility that i questioned would be to match up the tempos so that the 5/4 measure would be at a different tempo than the 4/4, making each measure last the same length. We have a name for this, its not it two different tempos, its a polyrhythm.

this would be playing "quarter notes" in each
5/4|x--x--x--x---x--|
4/4|x---x---x---x---|
just pretend they match up how i would want them to. As you see they create a polyrhythm.


This is how I think about it, i realize that i could be wrong on many aspects of what I said. I'm not bashing anyone, or saying anyone is wrong or right, rather than freely expressing my opinion. I would like to see what people have to say in responce to this wicked long post, I even know if it makes sense, kind of an interesting topic.

[Josiah]

We all learn english right? (ok most of us).


In order for us to have a cohesive language that everyone understands we have rules, grammer, spelling, etc... now granted we've mastered it to a level where breaking the rules can happen but non the less.

We have rules, and we have officiated thigns wich define words and so forth so everyone must adhere to a standard?


Everyone agree's to that right? Cause if we all just started implementing our own ideas, the language would fall apart because people wouldn't know what other people meant. Right? Everyone still there.



There is NO documented ruling, system, notation, or anything that applies to writing or communicating music on a given singular instrument in multiple time signatures.

It just doesn't exist. You can spend days looking through the music theory text's in libraries, you'll just never find it.

Now, there is no aurgument at this point. Because, it's like someone trying to make up their own words or change the rules of english.

As soon as someone does, everyone goes, "no, you can't do that. that's not how the language works. You're the only one, it's not officiated, and nobody would know what the heck you were saying. So stop if you want to be understood in this language and follow the rules"

Make sense?



There is no arugement here - there is just someone trying to impose their own ideas and set of rules onto a already WELL established system wich doesn't support those persons ideas.

It's simple as that.

[jiashen]

haha are you drawing a parallel to the 'maths' thing? It would be nice and subtle if you were, like drinking hot soup.