Manchuria-worse than the Holocaust

[B Radd]

There was a camp in Manchuria, ( im pretty sure this was when Japan invaded China in ww1 or ww2) where people were experimented on, family's etc. the japenese called the people they experimented on: logs. because in the lumber industry you just throw logs around, well they just threw these people around. I heard it was more horrible then the holocaust. but since not so many people were involved in this, it never got out too much.Does anybody know anymore situations like this, that should be heard, like the holocaust? Im not talking about ones that are pretty well known,post stuff that should of been noticed more.

[Jharaski]

The things they did can compare, but not the numbers.

[B Radd]

The things they did can compare, but not the numbers.

The family's in Manchuria, were basically experimented alive, with little or no numbing. Holocaust-they did do scientific experiments, just not so gruesome,alot more people died in the holocaust then Manchuria

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

The Japanese also forced women in conquered territories into sex slavery for their troops, a fact which the Japanese government still has not acknowledged

[Jharaski]

If we're talking about pure numbers, then Ghenghis Khan may have been the worst in history in terms of committing genocide. Obviously we've got no idea for sure how many the Mongols killed with him in charge, but it's believed to be many millions. When you take his descendants into account though, it becomes even worse. The massacre at Baghdad in the 13th century was one of the worst examples of total brutality.

Although it's disputed, the Holodomor genocide that took place in the early 1930s caused millions of deaths, primarily due to famine. The argument is whether over Russia caused those deaths thanks to agricultural policies and other oppresive measures or whether the deaths were just unfortunate (or something in between the two).

The Bangladeshi genocide of 1971 and the many atrocities in Africa also invariably get overlooked as well, although they aren't on the same scale as the two that I mentioned.

Stalin gleefully made lists of people he wanted killed. He also killed people for "disrespect." Even conservative estamates number around 20 million. Some speculate it could be upwards of 100 million, but that's probably just so they can add another digit to the mix.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Mao's backward economics policies killed approximately 70 million

[B Radd]

Yeah i heard about Stalin, the reason no one really said anything about the crazy stuff he did was because he was on the US's side in the war. I thought that was insane. Because we have a holocaust museum, we should also honor those Stalin killed.

[StrangelyBrewed13]

Stalin gleefully made lists of people he wanted killed. He also killed people for "disrespect." Even conservative estamates number around 20 million. Some speculate it could be upwards of 100 million, but that's probably just so they can add another digit to the mix.



100 million is strecthing it...probably more at 60 million

[Jharaski]

Yeah i heard about Stalin, the reason no one really said anything about the crazy stuff he did was because he was on the US's side in the war. I thought that was insane. Because we have a holocaust museum, we should also honor those Stalin killed.

Stalin got "bored" and decided to "pick up where Hitler left off" and tried to rid the earth of Jews, too. Or so I hear.

Yeah, obviously Stalin and Mao who get overshadowed by the Holocaust somewhat, but I would imagine (and hope) that most people here are aware of that. No way did Stalin kill 100 million people though. Simply in terms of "Let's count the number of people available for him to kill in the first place" that's stretching it. Terrible guy, downright wicked ruler of Russia, but massaging numbers like that is just irresponsible.

Definitely, but 100 million just packs oomph. Wasn't there a little over 200 million people before? And a significantly reduced population after. Then there's also captured soldiers being sent to gulags, but that's probably about the same number as Russian soldiers killed in combat, so they cancel each other out.

100 million is strecthing it...probably more at 60 millionI always figured around 40-60.


EDIT - another interesting bit. Hitler was not capable of seeing death. He could not look at the people in concentration camps or at the rubble in cities. This supports the claim that while in power, he never killed anyone himself. Though Stalin certainly did.

[23-inch dude]

We were just much closer to hitler wich ahd/has a bigger influence on us, plus all those historical things that made acts of people like stalin less worse(being an ally and stuff).
Like the Holomodor was downright big scale killing of people

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

another interesting bit. Hitler was not capable of seeing death. He could not look at the people in concentration camps or at the rubble in cities. This supports the claim that while in power, he never killed anyone himself. Though Stalin certainly did.

I've read that. Supposedly, Hitler never even visited a concentration camp because of it. I suppose the gun at the Beer Hall Pustch was just for show.

We were just much closer to hitler wich ahd/has a bigger influence on us, plus all those historical things that made acts of people like stalin less worse(being an ally and stuff).
Like the Holomodor was downright big scale killing of people

What do you mean, "closer to Hitler"? And Stalin was only our ally for roughly three years before the Cold War began, and then Russia was our biggest nemesis. The reason that Hitlers' acts are remembered more are because they're more media accessable. Alot of Stalins' murders dealt with starvation, Hitler (Well, really Himmler, but you know) subjected victims to mass shootings, gas chambers, and furnaces. If you take into account how many WWII and Holocaust movies there are as well as video games, the genocide most people now a days will think of first will be the one perpetrated by the Third Reich.

[Against Miik!]

I'm sure more hanus acts of genocide have been commited in a numbers sense. But over such a short period of time, I think few rival Hitlers crusade. The number stands at about 12 million I think. And that doesn't include all the civilians killed by the military as they marched towards England.

[Smokey D]

The family's in Manchuria, were basically experimented alive, with little or no numbing. Holocaust-they did do scientific experiments, just not so gruesome,alot more people died in the holocaust then Manchuria

Zykon-B was an experiment.

Stalin got "bored" and decided to "pick up where Hitler left off" and tried to rid the earth of Jews, too. Or so I hear.

Stalin became increasing paranoid regarding the Jews later in his life and it was thought that he would carry out a second Holocaust, particuarly after he became convinced of a Jewish conspiracy in the Doctors' Plot -- however, he died before this really took off.

And that doesn't include all the civilians killed by the military as they marched towards England.

Germany wasn't strategically concerned with England. Their interests lay in the East, but it was thought that France and Britain had to be defeated to allow the Reich to complete its own manifest destiny.

[StreetlightRock]

Im sort of suprised no one has mentioned the name Unit 731, the Japanese expremental unit that the thredstarter is talking about.

Most of the relavent info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

But the just of it is they were a secret group of military scientists who researched biological warfare and conducted horrific human experements that were on par, if not suparsing the exprememnts done by the Nazis, inclusing:


- Non-anethiscised (because it would affect results) vivisection of pregnent women, as well as prisoners dileberately affected with diseases such as The Plague, Small Pox and Cholea, etc

- Testing of flame throwers, grenades and bombs on live humans.

- Heat and Cold experements - How long you can survie in sub-zero temps, sawing off frost bitten limbs, etc

As well as stuff like arms being cut off and reattached to either sides, removal of organs, study of blood loss by amputating limbs, etc.


Its stuff made for horror movies, and I don't know what more terrifying - the fact that these experements were carried out or that many of those involved not only got off and are now (or were) involved in high-level medical positions, the fact that Japan still has not recognised the experements and furthermore, the Allies GRANTED IMMUNITY to members of Unit 731 for their research.

The systematic destruction of Manchuria and the Northern Chinese cities by the Japanese on the other hand, although well documented, seems to be neglected, or just plain unkown by so many, its scary. Most of all, The Rape of Nanking, in which 300,000 Civilans were killed in a single city.

Japanese troops engaged in an orgy of rape, murder, theft, and arson....with many women taken captive and gang raped. The women were then killed immediately after the rape, often by mutilation....It is estimated that over one-third and as much as two-thirds of the city was destroyed as a result of arson.....Nanjing Hospital was the site of some of the most gruesome atrocities committed during the occupation. Bandages were torn from the flesh of the wounded, casts were smashed with clubs, and nurses were repeatedly raped.....Thousands were led away and mass-executed in an excavation known as the "Ten-Thousand-Corpse Ditch", a trench measuring about 300m long and 5m wide. Since records were not kept, estimates regarding the number of victims buried in the ditch range from 4,000 to 20,000....forcing families to commit acts of incest: sons were forced to rape their mothers, fathers were forced to rape daughters.

Its non-humanity and insanity at its most inane. And the Japanese have yet to officially recognise it as well.

There's Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Melosevic, Saddam, The Armenian Massacre...

It's a sombering list.

[Riva]

tGhenghis Khan

Atilla The Hun has my vote. At least the Mongols set up puppet governments on occasion.

[Atomic Rain]

The family's in Manchuria, were basically experimented alive, with little or no numbing. Holocaust-they did do scientific experiments, just not so gruesome,alot more people died in the holocaust then Manchuria

This is like saying one particularly grizzly murder compares to the holocaut. Yes, this is horrific, but it's not "wipe out a race of people"

[rdavidson510]

This is like saying one particularly grizzly murder compares to the holocaut. Yes, this is horrific, but it's not "wipe out a race of people"

Since when is a Jew a race?

[Yield]

The Cambodian Genocide of 1975-79 only lasted four years. If it had lasted as long as the holocaust, then the death toll would have come close to that of the Holocaust. And the people killed either starved or were horrifically tortured.

[Smokey D]

The systematic destruction of Manchuria and the Northern Chinese cities by the Japanese on the other hand, although well d0cumented, seems to be neglected, or just plain unkown by so many, its scary. Most of all, The Rape of Nanking, in which 300,000 Civilans were killed in a single city.

Nanking is in the south of China.

The Cambodian Genocide of 1975-79 only lasted four years. If it had lasted as long as the holocaust, then the death toll would have come close to that of the Holocaust. And the people killed either starved or were horrifically tortured.

The Holocaust only lasted four years -- 1941-45.

[Atomic Rain]

Since when is a Jew a race?

Fine, sorry.

They were percieved as a race, which is odd.

"religion of people" doesn't seem like the right words for some reason

[Yield]

The holocaust lasted twelve. The USA's involvement in WW2 was four years.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

no go back to school

hitler was in power 1933-45, but the Holocaust proper didn't start until much later.

[The_Passenger]

The holocaust lasted twelve. The USA's involvement in WW2 was four years.

Although Hitler started persecuting various groups of people (including Jews and Poles amongst many others) in 1933 when he gained power, the mass killings didn't really begin until 1941.

[StrangeVision]

The "Final Solution," the concentration camps, began in 1941.

[Against Miik!]

Germany wasn't strategically concerned with England. Their interests lay in the East, but it was thought that France and Britain had to be defeated to allow the Reich to complete its own manifest destiny.


True, but there march to the west was inevetibly susposed to end with England. And they blew up a lot of **** along the way.

[Bron-Yr-Aur]

The "Final Solution," the concentration camps, began in 1941.

That's true. The mass deportation of "undesirables" didn't begin until 1941. However, many, many Jews were still murdered, tortured, etc. before the camps began harboring prisoners.

Germany wasn't strategically concerned with England. Their interests lay in the East, but it was thought that France and Britain had to be defeated to allow the Reich to complete its own manifest destiny.

I've read that. Apparently, Hitler wanted to establish an Eastern empire that ran through the Soviet Union, while allowing the English to maintain their naval empire (colonies) as well. France was considered to be the target to worry about first, as Hitler didn't forsee the English getting involved in an armed conflict until well into the 1940's.

[B Radd]

This is like saying one particularly grizzly murder compares to the holocaut. Yes, this is horrific, but it's not "wipe out a race of people"

yeah i know, but i intended the thread to be for unrecognized events,whether there were alot of people involved or not.

[Smokey D]

That's true. The mass deportation of "undesirables" didn't begin until 1941. However, many, many Jews were still murdered, tortured, etc. before the camps began harboring prisoners.

Systematic mass killings by the state apparatus did not begin until 1941, and its to that which the Holocaust refers.



I've read that. Apparently, Hitler wanted to establish an Eastern empire that ran through the Soviet Union, while allowing the English to maintain their naval empire (colonies) as well. France was considered to be the target to worry about first, as Hitler didn't forsee the English getting involved in an armed conflict until well into the 1940's.

It is alleged Hitler foresaw an apocalyptic showdown between the United States vs the British Empire and Germany.

[rdavidson510]

Systematic mass killings by the state apparatus did not begin until 1941, and its to that which the Holocaust refers.





It is alleged Hitler foresaw an apocalyptic showdown between the United States vs the British Empire and Germany.


I thought I remembered seeing something on the History Channel briefly about some documents found, written by Hitler, stating his future plans for the war with America.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

Since when is a Jew a race?

They're an ethnic group. Ethnic groups used to be referred to as race as well.

[rdavidson510]

They're an ethnic group. Ethnic groups used to be referred to as race as well.

So my white German/Europeon/Norwegion *** can convert to become a part of this ethnic group? Since it's a relgion, then yes, I could, which according to you, I would be joining an ethnic group.

[Atomic Rain]

So my white German/Europeon/Norwegion *** can convert to become a part of this ethnic group? Since it's a relgion, then yes, I could, which according to you, I would be joining an ethnic group.

If a group has been a mostly self-contained community for many hundreds of years, I would consider it an acceptable generalisation to call it an ethnic group.

[rdavidson510]

If a group has been a mostly self-contained community for many hundreds of years, I would consider it an acceptable generalisation to call it an ethnic group.

But it's flawed when there's many Jews who do not follow the specific ethnic group generalizations.

Such as there being a black jew, etc.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

So my white German/Europeon/Norwegion *** can convert to become a part of this ethnic group? Since it's a relgion, then yes, I could, which according to you, I would be joining an ethnic group.

No. Jews are an ethnic group with certain genetic traits, just like Germans and Italians and Irish people, etc. They split up a long time ago into basically two main types of jews: Sephardic and Ashkenazi. These are ethnic groups that have nothing to do with religion. They are both considered Jews. The confusing part is that people who practice Judaism are also called Jews. Ethnic Jews are almost always also followers of Judaism, but if a person were to convert, they would also be considered a Jew. They just wouldn't be considered an ethnic Jew like an Ashkenazi or Sephardic. It's a very complicated thing and it's going to make my head explode if I think about it anymore.

But it's flawed when there's many Jews who do not follow the specific ethnic group generalizations.

Such as there being a black jew, etc.

I believe there are Jews in Africa, though. Both religiously and ethnic-wise. Basically, when the Jews were forced to move out of the middle east, they seperated all over and it's what caused different kinds of ethnic Jews. Sephardic Jews have a Spanish or French influence to them (maybe even more middle-eastern as well) while Ashkenazi Jews have a Eastern European influence to them. Most of the Jews in the U.S.A. are Ashkenazi and there's a very good chance that they have an ethnic background with German, Austrian, or Hungarian people as well as their original Ethnic Jewish background.

[rdavidson510]

No. Jews are an ethnic group with certain genetic traits, just like Germans and Italians and Irish people, etc. They split up a long time ago into basically two main types of jews: Sephardic and Ashkenazi. These are ethnic groups that have nothing to do with religion. They are both considered Jews. The confusing part is that people who practice Judaism are also called Jews. Ethnic Jews are almost always also followers of Judaism, but if a person were to convert, they would also be considered a Jew. They just wouldn't be considered an ethnic Jew like an Ashkenazi or Sephardic. It's a very complicated thing and it's going to make my head explode if I think about it anymore.



I believe there are Jews in Africa, though. Both religiously and ethnic-wise. Basically, when the Jews were forced to move out of the middle east, they seperated all over and it's what caused different kinds of ethnic Jews. Sephardic Jews have a Spanish or French influence to them (maybe even more middle-eastern as well) while Ashkenazi Jews have a Eastern European influence to them. Most of the Jews in the U.S.A. are Ashkenazi and there's a very good chance that they have an ethnic background with German, Austrian, or Hungarian people as well as their original Ethnic Jewish background.

Thank you.
I will admit that my opinion has been changed, due to your excellant post. This is the first time anyone on a forum has ever been able to change my mind on something, just by having an excellant, well though out post, like the one you just did. :chug:

...Seriously, not being sarcastic at all.

In case of what we're talking about then, my mistake. Just a play on words that I just got mixed up in. But the Ethnic Jews should really have some other word to identify, or maybe the Jews (religion wise) should have another. Make things more easier.... but then again, most launguages are not easy as well.

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

Thank you.
I will admit that my opinion has been changed, due to your excellant post. This is the first time anyone on a forum has ever been able to change my mind on something, just by having an excellant, well though out post, like the one you just did. :chug:

...Seriously, not being sarcastic at all.

In case of what we're talking about then, my mistake. Just a play on words that I just got mixed up in. But the Ethnic Jews should really have some other word to identify, or maybe the Jews (religion wise) should have another. Make things more easier.... but then again, most launguages are not easy as well.

Thanks for the compliment. It's a very confusing subject and I do agree that their should be a seperate name for ethnic Jews, but it'll probably never catch on. So, for now, Sammy Davis Jr. and Jerry Seinfeld are part of the same group of people. :p

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Thanks for the compliment. It's a very confusing subject and I do agree that their should be a seperate name for ethnic Jews, but it'll probably never catch on. So, for now, Sammy Davis Jr. and Jerry Seinfeld are part of the same group of people. :p

Rumor has it that he converted to the Church of Satan

[YouGottaBeCrazy]

Rumor has it that he converted to the Church of Satan

Did he ask Sinatra for permission first? :p