View Full Version : Universe, intelligent life and technology
I was interested if any of you could provide me some information about the early phases of universe and galaxies.
I would especially be interested about the first galaxies and the estimation about first planets in existance.
I was thinking about the probability of extraterrestrials reaching us. How much older civilizations there could be in existance? Also some discussion about estimations how young solar systems might have planets capable for sustaining life, probable time that evolution "needs" for intelligent life and time that is needed for techonological progress.
tumples
06-14-2006, 12:05 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life
and research SETI
Atomic Rain
06-14-2006, 12:24 PM
Life elsewhere in universe - quite possible
Intelligent life in our sense of intelligence - perhaps quite a way less likely.
Also, space is HUGE!!!!!
So impossibly big that if you ever really comprehended how big it was, I expect you'd die of inadequacy. It really is that enormous.
Even intelligent life in our own leg of our own galaxy might not be able to find us with fantastic space technology. I mean, alpha centurai- 5 light years! that is SO FAR! So impossibly far!
I believe that at some point of mankinds history travelling to alpha centaury would take less than 50 years. Unmanned flights would be able to travel even faster and without crew. Still the voyage through the galaxy would take at least 4 million years and voyage to another galaxy would take 5 billion years... also, creating self maintaining technology that would remain functional that long, would be incredibly hard task.
Atomic Rain
06-14-2006, 12:43 PM
I believe that at some point of mankinds history travelling to alpha centaury would take less than 50 years. Unmanned flights would be able to travel even faster and without crew. Still the voyage through the galaxy would take at least 4 million years and voyage to another galaxy would take 5 billion years... also, creating self maintaining technology that would remain functional that long, would be incredibly hard task.
The idea of self replicating spaceships that seek out a planet with metals, create some kind of station and then create another one (or more) of themselves is a cool thing
ringworm
06-14-2006, 01:35 PM
Here are 2 links at PBS. They always have interesting articles on the matter.
If I could go back several years, I would have taken this up as a career.
Truly amazing.
http://www.pbs.org/exploringspace/
http://www.pbs.org/exploringspace/aliens/index.html
Marx Rove
06-14-2006, 01:51 PM
Life elsewhere in universe - quite possible
Intelligent life in our sense of intelligence - perhaps quite a way less likely.
Also, space is HUGE!!!!!
So impossibly big that if you ever really comprehended how big it was, I expect you'd die of inadequacy. It really is that enormous.
Even intelligent life in our own leg of our own galaxy might not be able to find us with fantastic space technology. I mean, alpha centurai- 5 light years! that is SO FAR! So impossibly far!
event horizon dude... event horizon
Although I heartily agree that intelligent life must be somewhere else in the Universe, it's unlikely that they're visiting here right now, if we hold true to Einstein's theories (which seems less likely as we go on).
I mean, space is infinite. You might think it's a long way from home to the chemists, but that's nothing compared to space.
Considering that the earth is something like 6.5 billion years old and that sort of technology is probably a few thousand years away, it's entirely possible that life somewhere else in the universe has existed for 10 billion years and already has it and has perfected it.
However I don't know what the heck they would want with us.
Perhaps the Earth is some sort of intergalactic zoo?
A Spoonful Supreme
06-14-2006, 10:18 PM
hey ya.... and the "aliens" visiting us ..... really are visiting us and looking at us but we just can't see them, and those little "borrower" people..... definitely looking at us the exhibits
i just did astronomy in science class and we learned a couple of basic things.
the universe is roughly between 14 billion and 18 billion years old.
the universe is getting bigger, and it is speeding up.
according to a movie we watched the oldest galaxies and stars we see are roughly 12 billion years old.
the probability of aliens is extremely high and we have found another planet that is almost identicle to earth in many ways. it is about the same size, has water, and is the right distance from it's sun. astronomers believe that if there is life out there, it would most likely be on this planet.
we will never be able to reach other places in the universe as humans. we have limited capacities... we only live a certain amount of years, and it would takes much more than 40 or 50 years to get to another galaxy, or even other solar systems in our galaxy
Oh yeah? Why not send about 30 people on the voyage and have them mate and raise their kids to continue the journey? It's feisable.
bucket
06-17-2006, 11:56 PM
the probability of aliens is extremely high and we have found another planet that is almost identicle to earth in many ways. it is about the same size, has water, and is the right distance from it's sun. astronomers believe that if there is life out there, it would most likely be on this planet.
Source?
As fas as Earthlike characteristics go, I've only heard of extrasolar rocky planets which are several times more massive than Earth. And I have no idea how anyone could know whether or not a planet outside our galaxy has water or not, with our current telescopes anyways.
The possibility of life and water is very high. Keep in mind that the earth began without life, water or oxygen.
Source?
As fas as Earthlike characteristics go, I've only heard of extrasolar rocky planets which are several times more massive than Earth. And I have no idea how anyone could know whether or not a planet outside our galaxy has water or not, with our current telescopes anyways.
Yeah, last I checked the Earth is the only planet thought to be capable of supporting life as we know it.
There are some planets which are within the "belt of habitability", but they are either gas giants that are larger than Jupiter, or flawed in some other way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_habitability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrasolar_planets
A Spoonful Supreme
06-18-2006, 02:34 AM
i just did astronomy in science class and we learned a couple of basic things.
the universe is roughly between 14 billion and 18 billion years old.
the universe is getting bigger, and it is speeding up.
according to a movie we watched the oldest galaxies and stars we see are roughly 12 billion years old.
the probability of aliens is extremely high and we have found another planet that is almost identicle to earth in many ways. it is about the same size, has water, and is the right distance from it's sun. astronomers believe that if there is life out there, it would most likely be on this planet.
we will never be able to reach other places in the universe as humans. we have limited capacities... we only live a certain amount of years, and it would takes much more than 40 or 50 years to get to another galaxy, or even other solar systems in our galaxy
I thought the Universe was slowing down, which introduced the question of whether or not it will reverse and crunch.
Smokey D
06-18-2006, 05:22 AM
Red shifts seem to indicate it's speeding up, which throws into question Big Crunch - Big Bang theories.
Do you live in NZ, Smokey?
And yeah, Red Shift shows that the Universe is around 14 billion, and gives us an impression of the Universe only 376 000 years or so after the Big Bang. Hence we can extrapolate the increasing rate of expansion.
Smokey D
06-18-2006, 06:56 AM
Yes, I do.
Atomic Rain
06-18-2006, 10:47 AM
Oh yeah? Why not send about 30 people on the voyage and have them mate and raise their kids to continue the journey? It's feisable.
What'll they eat?
By the time you've managed to fit the farm inside the spacecraft it's going NOWHERE fast.
What'll they eat?
.
They could clone pigs by the time. Trust me; I have it all planned out ;)
ashman
06-18-2006, 05:44 PM
If you look at the dates of our evoulution compared to the universe, it looks like we're the only intelligent life form in the Universe.
And the Universe isn't infinite, it's all encompassing :mad:
If you look at the dates of our evoulution compared to the universe, it looks like we're the only intelligent life form in the Universe.
Would you care to expand on that? I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
I guess he is getting close to the point of this thread... human evolution took so long that it is very unlikely that it might have happened somewhere else too, at least inside the scope reachability by technical capability.
Even if there would be Earth like planets we have to keep in mind that space and technology can be pretty hazard for life.
Yes, I do.
Oh good. Very good.
Would you care to expand on that? I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
I think he is referring to Von Neumann probes. Basically, these things are self-replicating machines which can be used to explore space. Because of their relative simplicity and ease of use, it's estimated that it would only take a short time (500 000 years) for the entire Milky Way galaxy to be flooded with these little buggers. Because of the lack of activity of Von Neumann probes from other planets, however, suggests that either intelligent life exists solely on Earth, or that other forms of life haven't reached significant forms of technology yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_probe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracewell_probe
These things feature a lot in the works of authors like Arthur C. Clarke.
Smokey D
06-18-2006, 07:37 PM
Why exactly do you want to know where I'm from?
1. Because I like Kiwis a lot.
2. Because I was interested since a certain someone mentioned that a certain someone would be a good replacement for two certain someones due to his/her supposed place of residence, amongst other factors.
Letto
06-19-2006, 12:10 AM
Something like the Drake Equation might be what you're looking for (even though the values aren't really known).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
I think you would multiply the Drake equation by the number of galaxies in the universe, then use universally-averaged values (accounting for every galaxy) for all of the variables in Drakes equation.
ashman
06-19-2006, 11:31 AM
I think he is referring to Von Neumann probes. Basically, these things are self-replicating machines which can be used to explore space. Because of their relative simplicity and ease of use, it's estimated that it would only take a short time (500 000 years) for the entire Milky Way galaxy to be flooded with these little buggers. Because of the lack of activity of Von Neumann probes from other planets, however, suggests that either intelligent life exists solely on Earth, or that other forms of life haven't reached significant forms of technology yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_probe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracewell_probe
These things feature a lot in the works of authors like Arthur C. Clarke.
That's not exactly what I was talking about :confused:
But that's still cool nonetheless, I've heard about them.
Anyway, I was talking about this;
There was a big boom 13-18 Billion years (changes whenever I change my underwear), it took so many billions for first generation stars to form, they had to go boom and then another star had to take that place. Then you have to add the time it has taken us to evolve...
The chances of more 'intelligent' beings then us is very slim.
In no way does that even come close to proving the chances of other intelligent life to be "slim".
It's very possible. It's hard to deny that there must be some form of life somewhere and so it could have exceeded us. Consider this: it took 6.whatever billion years for humans to appear and it took them several hundred thousand years to evolve to their current state. It then took only a few thousand years for human life to gain the knowledge that it has now. Human knowledge and "intelligence" is growing exponentially and isn't going to slow down. Give life on earth (whether it be human or some evolution of that) another million years and it will have the technology for space travel. So what if another planet got a mere million years head start on earth? They would already be "intelligent" and possibly capable of space travel.
And even if space travel of that degree is impossible, they would still be "intelligent".
The only thing you're basing that is is the fact that it took a long time for us to become intelligent. If another planet started before us, when we did or even after but evolved more quickly due to favorable conditions, they could be intelligent.
Atomic Rain
06-19-2006, 02:51 PM
OK then:
The probability of life existing else where is either close to zero or close to one depending on your definition of life.
The probability of humans ever even setting eyes upon an extra-terrestial lifeform for the duration of our existance approchs zero with every nuke they build.
The probability of humans ever even setting eyes upon an extra-terrestial lifeform for the duration of our existance approchs zero with every nuke they build.
Defintely. But there's a good chance of other life.
The only thing you're basing that is is the fact that it took a long time for us to become intelligent. If another planet started before us, when we did or even after but evolved more quickly due to favorable conditions, they could be intelligent.
Well... like I said, inter galactic travell by some other race to accomplish by now is impossible because of technical limitations based on laws of nature. Instead of using the age of universe we should be using the age of Milky Way and do the calculus from there. Keep in mind that we don't know if the human evolution to intelligent life form took long or short time. Also it takes some time of solar system to get in the phase of its life where some of the planets are capable of sustaining life. With the best possible technology the space travell through the galaxy (from one edge to another) would take a very long time. Also progressing from solar system to solar system would take even more time...
ashman
06-19-2006, 06:41 PM
In no way does that even come close to proving the chances of other intelligent life to be "slim".
It's very possible. It's hard to deny that there must be some form of life somewhere and so it could have exceeded us. Consider this: it took 6.whatever billion years for humans to appear and it took them several hundred thousand years to evolve to their current state. It then took only a few thousand years for human life to gain the knowledge that it has now. Human knowledge and "intelligence" is growing exponentially and isn't going to slow down. Give life on earth (whether it be human or some evolution of that) another million years and it will have the technology for space travel. So what if another planet got a mere million years head start on earth? They would already be "intelligent" and possibly capable of space travel.
And even if space travel of that degree is impossible, they would still be "intelligent".
The only thing you're basing that is is the fact that it took a long time for us to become intelligent. If another planet started before us, when we did or even after but evolved more quickly due to favorable conditions, they could be intelligent.
You're trying to say I'm wrong about the probability of intelligent life other then us existing is slim, by not proving otherwise, but only stating an example of how something else could evolve.
What's the probability of a race Starting a million years before us? I think that's pretty slim to be honest. I'm not denying the fact that they could be, I'm just saying that we're probably the most intelligent. I think you misread "Probably" with "100% Most certainly". :p
Well... like I said, inter galactic travell by some other race to accomplish by now is impossible because of technical limitations based on laws of nature. Instead of using the age of universe we should be using the age of Milky Way and do the calculus from there. Keep in mind that we don't know if the human evolution to intelligent life form took long or short time. Also it takes some time of solar system to get in the phase of its life where some of the planets are capable of sustaining life. With the best possible technology the space travell through the galaxy (from one edge to another) would take a very long time. Also progressing from solar system to solar system would take even more time...
i think they have found small fossilized cells on mars, but i'm not 100% sure. it's impossible for life to survive on any of the outer planets because on the larger ones (jupiter, saturn, and possibly uranus) there is too much gravity therefor causing any cell to squish. and i'm sure you know it's much to cold for life to exist on pluto and neptune
Umm... why did you quote me?
I think you misread "Probably" with "100% Most certainly". :p
Oh probably. ;)
But the chance of a species starting a million years before us would be fairly good if we could confirm other life forms. From the big bang, the matter that the earth was created from came into existance and so other planets in other parts of the universe could have been created at roughly the same time. And i'd like to assume that somewhere in the vast space that is the universe, there exists a planet that is even more capable of supporting life than earth considering the almost endless possibilites. There was originally no life on earth and life evolved from nothing except a few elements. Something similar could have happened on that planet (or planets. There could be multiple planets with life) except the conditions could have been better for maintaining life and so life on that planet could have got a head start. It took a few billion years for life on earth to appear but on a planet with more favorable conditions, it could have taken several million years less.
And my main point is that considering the huge size of the universe and nearly unlimited potential, this scenario is very possible. So I disagree with the word "slim".
As for space travel: yes, it would probably be impossible for any living being to travel those distances. I re-thought that one.
Well, it only took 10,000 years to go from wheels and subsistence farming to planes and McDonalds. If the Earth was even half a million years (a blink of an eye in terms of the Universe) slow off the mark in developing life, then that's 500,000 years of development more that an intelligent lifeform has had to work out the twists and turns of space travel.
However, I doubt that it has happened. But we'll see.
B Radd
06-21-2006, 01:14 AM
i myself (this isn't what you guys are discussing right now, but its part of the thread) see that there is alot of evidence of extraterrestrial life.
Aren't you the guy who is a hardline Christian?
B Radd
06-21-2006, 01:25 AM
Aren't you the guy who is a hardline Christian?
yes, to my knowledge, the bible doesn't say anything against there being ET's
Orange Piggy
06-21-2006, 05:02 AM
i myself (this isn't what you guys are discussing right now, but its part of the thread) see that there is alot of evidence of extraterrestrial life.
Er, can you please make a quick mention of what this evidence is? I'm quite eager to hear what you have to say.
ashman
06-21-2006, 05:25 AM
Oh probably. ;)
But the chance of a species starting a million years before us would be fairly good if we could confirm other life forms. From the big bang, the matter that the earth was created from came into existance and so other planets in other parts of the universe could have been created at roughly the same time. And i'd like to assume that somewhere in the vast space that is the universe, there exists a planet that is even more capable of supporting life than earth considering the almost endless possibilites. There was originally no life on earth and life evolved from nothing except a few elements. Something similar could have happened on that planet (or planets. There could be multiple planets with life) except the conditions could have been better for maintaining life and so life on that planet could have got a head start. It took a few billion years for life on earth to appear but on a planet with more favorable conditions, it could have taken several million years less.
Life evolves to live on that planet, therefore that planet is perfect for that organism, there is no such thing as 'more perfect' habitat.
And my main point is that considering the huge size of the universe and nearly unlimited potential, this scenario is very possible. So I disagree with the word "slim".
Well we know very little about the Universe, for all we know we could be the only planet with liquid water on, so anyone could make any kind of crazy assumption :p
As for space travel: yes, it would probably be impossible for any living being to travel those distances. I re-thought that one.
I reckon it is possible, if you traveled at nearly the speed of light, you'd get to the nearest star in a year or two.
Gotta love time and space.
Orange Piggy
06-21-2006, 05:49 AM
Life evolves to live on that planet, therefore that planet is perfect for that organism, there is no such thing as 'more perfect' habitat.
Well, if the enviromental conditions remained an absolute constant (perfect time for mating all year round, always the perfect temperature, no lack of food due to poor seasons), that'd be pretty nifty. Once a species has adapted, there doesn't need to be any excess deaths to allow evolution (in response to climate, soil pH, winds, all of that inanimate sort) to occur. I think that's better than earth.
Atomic Rain
06-21-2006, 08:58 AM
i myself (this isn't what you guys are discussing right now, but its part of the thread) see that there is alot of evidence of extraterrestrial life.
so hit me
Lets see ye olde evidence
yes, to my knowledge, the bible doesn't say anything against there being ET's
It also doesn't say anything about them existing either, as far as I know. Surely they at least rate a footnote somewhere.
Well, if the enviromental conditions remained an absolute constant (perfect time for mating all year round, always the perfect temperature, no lack of food due to poor seasons), that'd be pretty nifty. Once a species has adapted, there doesn't need to be any excess deaths to allow evolution (in response to climate, soil pH, winds, all of that inanimate sort) to occur. I think that's better than earth.
Unfortunately planets don't have homogenous atmospheres, weathers and temprature...
B Radd
06-21-2006, 01:30 PM
It also doesn't say anything about them existing either, as far as I know. Surely they at least rate a footnote somewhere.
yeah, the Bible doesn't say anything about them existing.i dun know
B Radd
06-21-2006, 01:33 PM
so hit me
Lets see ye olde evidence
cases of area 51, i can explain one if you want me too. all of the cropcircles, some cropcircles are yes,fake, made by people. but some are made by large energy blasts. if the crop circles aren't made from aliens, then they are made by an highly intelligent person, because crop circles that are huge, are made with in seconds with some crazy mysterious energy blast.
Atomic Rain
06-21-2006, 02:21 PM
cases of area 51, i can explain one if you want me too. all of the cropcircles, some cropcircles are yes,fake, made by people. but some are made by large energy blasts. if the crop circles aren't made from aliens, then they are made by an highly intelligent person, because crop circles that are huge, are made with in seconds with some crazy mysterious energy blast.
PLease show me an example from two credible sources of a crop circle that was not made by student methods.
Please also elaborate on what you think happened at Area 51.
B Radd
06-21-2006, 02:52 PM
PLease show me an example from two credible sources of a crop circle that was not made by student methods.
Please also elaborate on what you think happened at Area 51.
check this site:
http://www.cccrn.ca/thescientificevidence.html
skim down the page to where they show close ups of corn stalks, it shows an expalsion cavity, it was made by some crazy energy blast.
check this site:
ellisctaylor.homestead.com/ garsingtoncropform...
skim down to the last picture, you'll see how finely layed out the crop is, how is that stuff created in seconds?
there was a former scientist of area 51, who claims that he witnessed many things in it, ill have to find the source for him later
B Radd
06-21-2006, 02:57 PM
wait, the second link is screwed up, here it is:
http://ellisctaylor.homestead.com/garsingtoncropformation.html
Atomic Rain
06-21-2006, 03:30 PM
check this site:
http://www.cccrn.ca/thescientificevidence.html
skim down the page to where they show close ups of corn stalks, it shows an expalsion cavity, it was made by some crazy energy blast.
check this site:
ellisctaylor.homestead.com/ garsingtoncropform...
skim down to the last picture, you'll see how finely layed out the crop is, how is that stuff created in seconds?
there was a former scientist of area 51, who claims that he witnessed many things in it, ill have to find the source for him later
an energy blast would have damaged the whole stalk from the break up, not caused a break like that.
Besides, there's no such thing as an energy blast.
Spoonful of Shame
06-21-2006, 03:39 PM
If there are other forms of life out there would that prove Christianity and the other one god religions wrong? Think about it, in the bible there is only one genesis. If there are life forms elsewhere wouldn’t that mean there was a second genesis of life?
ringworm
06-21-2006, 03:48 PM
check this site:
http://www.cccrn.ca/thescientificevidence.html
I couldn't scroll down that far, as soon as I saw it was The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, that's all I needed.
You Crazy Canadians.
Smokey D
06-21-2006, 04:56 PM
Unfortunately planets don't have homogenous atmospheres, weathers and temprature...
That was his point.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.