career

[sdmfinada]

Ok I can't think of any other place to discuss my issue so here it is. I am contimplating moving to the L.A. area and attending MI or LA music academy. And I can't make up my %@*$ing mind what to do. These feelings come in waves like for a couple months I will totally want to go there and be a drummer or percussionists and then for a couple of months I get negative and scared and I worry if that is what I really want to do...its like going from one extreme to the other. I could just keep going to college here in a small city in Oklahoma and focus on getting a job in my field of studies or I could make a move to LA for a change. Lately the thought of just moving to the L.A. area excites me and makes me wonder if I would be moving there for the right reasons. Then I think that I should just do it and if it doesnt work out I can move back to here and continue college. There is a lot that I can't throw out here all in one message but I am just looking for advice or opinions or anything.

I also want to know what everyone else thinks should be the mental requirements for someone to want to be a professional/working drummer? I mean should I love to listen to every band I ever hear playing and listen to the drumming work? should I want to play all day every day? should I love or want to play with any style or band and like it? I wonder this because maybe I don't have the necessary love that I should have for the instrument. I love to play on them but I'm not sure if I would love to play a bunch of songs I don't like or some style that I just can't get into. I am very worried about what to expect also. Any one ever gone to these schools? what is it like at the school and once you get out?...anyways if any one can relate to or understand my situation and answer some questions then please do so I would love any comments as long as you are honest.

thanks BB

[dumbassdrummer]

Time, feel, versatility.

[moogoogaipan]

It's all about your inner feelings. We can post up tons of opinions, but in the end, it's all about how you feel.
I can tell you that if you love music, then go for it.
You have to have the ultimate drive to do it, though.

I don't let anything get me down. Negative thoughts are killers in the musical world... If I see a video of a drummer that's better than me, I have to look at it realistically and say "well, that drummer has been playing for much longer than me, I can still develop to that degree."
That kind of drive keeps me focused and in the game.

also, you have to remember that drumming is an art. Just cause someone's faster than you doesn't mean ****. Everyone would like to think so, but put in the best words of my teacher "The best has been done to death, choose to be some other less used superlative."

[milkmit]

you only live once, and regret lasts a lifetime.

I assume you're fairly young and have few obligations (rent, bills, wife, kids, etc). now is the time to take the risks. the worst that can happen is you'll learn & grow from the experience. the best that can happen is.....well....

good luck.

[moogoogaipan]

Think about it like this.
What is your passion in life?

I want to do music. Almost everyone sees that as being bad. They usually say stuff along the lines of "I hope you enjoy not having money" and whatnot.
So they attend college and get their degrees so that they can have a steady source of income, but to what end. Some of them just want a steady job so they can support themselves, but what kind of existence is that?
If they just go along life trying to have to money but not fully enjoying what they are doing, then it's almost pointless.
Even if I did get a degree that would actually put me into a field where that degree would be useful, I would only want the money so that I could not worry about pursuing music.

So I say screw the middle man. As long as I'm enjoying life, then I don't care how much money I make... because its the love of the art that I'm after. I'm not out to make it some sort of day job. I want to communicate and put my feelings out to other people and let them enjoy my work.

That's my philosophy, you can enjoy it or hate it. Either way, It's mine and I'm not expecting you to adopt it, but hopefully it might provide some sort of guidance.

[Inkstar]

If you have a strong passion for it dude, then go for it. It's better to regret doing something then to regret not doing it. If it fails then hey, go back to college and get a degree. :)

[sdmfinada]

well I am very picky who I play with I hate sitting around and playing with people who don't play the way I think...but Im sure their out there after all I was raised in a small town so few players with limited abilities. I hope that this wouldn't get in the way a lot. I also find it hard to get along with other musicians it seems like they are all assholes...(anyone ever met some guys that they could really play with?)...thanks for the post though...they are helpful and I am wondering how do you guys think about MI and LAMA and the L.A. area, is it cool? and are their other music schools that would be better (not berklee too expensive), would they really give me an edge? my dream is to play like Mike Portnoy, Sean Reinert, and danny carey all mixed into one, oh and Vinnie coliuatta (or how ever his name is spelled). I like african, jazz, rock, fusion styles and I love the way Mike Portnoy mixes them all into his playing...(briliiant)! I am thankful for your input.

thanks BB

[milkmit]

Some of them just want a steady job so they can support themselves, but what kind of existence is that?
If they just go along life trying to have to money but not fully enjoying what they are doing, then it's almost pointless.


AMEN.
I'm fortunate enough to have parents who have always been super supportive about EVERYTHING I've done, from graffiti (well, they expressed their discontent, but didn't try to stop me or anything) to skateboarding to art to music, etc etc.. I'm sincerely saddened by the people who aren't as fortunate, and are instead told incessantly by their parents "don't try to make a career out of your hobby; go to college and do something safe".....or the ever-cowardly "just make sure you have a backup plan"..

UGH, how depressing! what kind of life IS that? (gary jules' 'mad world' comes to mind)
giving up before you even try? being beaten into submission by the status quo? lacking all desire to really LIVE?!

f*ck that. I say do whatever it is that you're most passionate about. while everyone else gives up and decides upon a "safe" career and the subsequent miserable life that follows, they'll just be clearing a path for you. don't work just to work. work because you WANT to work.

(and here's the part where I cheesily quote some song lyrics that happen to be the truth)

****

to my friends and enemies who could have been anything,
titans and heroes who found survival in cause and effect.
behind counters, behind windows, striving just to be people
with bitter ideals of justice.

do we only need to keep working because it pays rent?
sleeping under plastic stars glued to a ceiling,
muscles burning alcohol and nicotine every morning...
but we gave them hell!

there's a height beyond skyscrapers, there's a distance beyond the freeway.
more than pictures in a magazine, more than tragedy in a rock and roll song.
it's more than the actions you know it's safe to make,
it's more than money could ever buy.
are we living to work and die in american cities?
and working to live and die in american cities?
and dying for what we worked?

[moogoogaipan]

(anyone ever met some guys that they could really play with?)

College is great for that. You meet some of the most talented players and all of them are just studying and practicing like you and so they are all willing to start projects and bands to gig around town for extra cash.


...thanks for the post though...they are helpful and I am wondering how do you guys think about MI and LAMA and the L.A. area, is it cool? and are their other music schools that would be better (not berklee too expensive), would they really give me an edge?

thanks BB
I'll tell you now, There are numbers of school all around the U.S.
Just cause a school has a good reputation, doesn't mean that it's the only choice.
Some schools are better for drumset and others are better for different styles of music, but many of the standard state universities have great programs.

I support University of Tennessee in Knoxville cause the jazz program is great. With staff like Jerry Coker (Frank Sinatra), Donald Brown (Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers), Keith Brown (student and friend of Ed Soph). UT was one of the top 10 Percussion schools in the world because of Professor Colmes, until he started screwing things up for a lot of the students.

My point is, if you research, you'll be able to find a school with respectable staff, and it can be within your money range.

I pay roughtly $4000 a year... and I don't even pay it cause I have 3 scholarships that provide enough money.

[Brown_Thunder]

Yeah man, I know exactly what you mean. I'm going to be following the same career path sometime next year when I start taking a music program when university starts.
Everyday I'm put down by parents and other relatives on how I'll never suceed blah blah. But come hell or high water, I'm going to make my living as a drummer.

Just don't let yourself be put down but immediate un-success (for lack of a better word). Think about it, Tony Williams busted out at the young age of 17 but it took Steve Gadd until the age of 30 to finally start making his mark. And as we all know, both are spectacular drummers, it just takes time. Don't even worry about other drummers who you feel are better than you, just take your time, practice, and be patient.

You'd be in USA as well, which increases your oppurtunity, I live in the butt-end of nowhere in Canada but once I get my diploma I'm gunna have to move somewhere a lot bigger to make my dream a career.

Also about your questions on should you want to play drums all the time, if deep down you're passionate about your drumming you'll at least practice a good deal. But if there are days where you just don't feel like drumming, that's perfectly normal. I'm sure that there were some days Da Vinci didn't want to paint, or days where Thomas Edison didn't want to invent.

About your question about having to like playing with any style of music, HELL NO! You might be called upon to play death metal one day and then latin samba the other. As a drummer, you don't HAVE to like that particular style or even pretend you do. Just keep yourself well-rounded for anything that might come up. An oppurtunity to play is an oppurtunity to play isn't it?

Just stay true to what your passion is, and keep working at it. Be confident in yourself and kind to those around you and something good's bound to happen.

[some jive turkey]

I've decided to skip the encouraging part of my post , and just try to cut to some more brutally honest realizations that haven't been mentioned. It's not that I'm not encouraging you, but rather that I'd just be repeating what others have said.


I also want to know what everyone else thinks should be the mental requirements for someone to want to be a professional/working drummer?

Ask yourself how competetive are you? Is music more like an art or a sport to you? Would you take a nicely paying gig away from one of your friends if it was offered to you? How well developed are your business and marketing skills?
The career aspects, have very little to do with your drumming abilities. It's a very cutthroat business, unfortunately. They will avoid teaching you this in school.

How about the idea of teaching private lessons? Does it appeal to you or not. Most working musicians have to teach, at least on the side, to survive.


I mean should I love to listen to every band I ever hear playing and listen to the drumming work? should I want to play all day every day? should I love or want to play with any style or band and like it?

You don't have to love everything you hear, but you should be able to play along competantly with anything you hear. It still pays the same.

Yes, (i think) you should want to play all day long. Most working musicians I know have very hectic lives. Lot of teaching, lots of traveling, lots of playing, not much time for relaxing, family, practicing. So, sometimes they have to do two or more gigs in one day. Would you still be smiling at the end of the night?

I wonder this because maybe I don't have the necessary love that I should have for the instrument. I love to play on them but I'm not sure if I would love to play a bunch of songs I don't like or some style that I just can't get into.

Some people seem more capable of professionally distancing themselves than other. If you could earn $100,000 total, for touring the globe & playing for britney spears for the next three years, would you do it?


Again, I'm not trying to be discouraging or cynical, but just raising some issues for you to think about.

[some jive turkey]

And now my encouraging thoughts:

You only live once.-what's the harm in trying if you can afford it?

If you have the aforementioned "back up" plan, then there's really no reason not to try.

There isn't anything better to spend your money on than knowledge, especially if it will enrich your life,....even better if you can reach out with your creative gifts and enrich the lives of others.

If you're going to go to school to study music, it's better to go when you're younger. You'll retain more, and you'll have more time to develop afterward.

[Josiah]

If you could earn $100,000 total, for touring the globe & playing for britney spears for the next three years, would you do it?



Impressive at best. Impossible woud be more like it. I know EXACTLY how much those gigs pay. High dollar tours using session guys are nearly gone as the record companies are scrambling to get out of the way of their own collapse.

You don't become a professional musician to get rich. And deffinetly not a drummer.

There's still plenty of work, gazillions of small studios and demos being done all the time. So the works there, it's just harder to find and doesn't pay as much.

The session guys, for high budget albums, there's like 7 guys who ar eont he list. They are all 1st call and it'd be pretty much impossible to break into that arena without workign your can off for years on end and devloping massive connections PLUS being an insane player and having impecible muscality and reading.

Still tons of gigs. Tons of work. Just don't be lookin to make money as a musician. It's unstable and doesn't pay very well for the most part.

[billdrum]

Hmmm, interesting thread. My two cents:

1) You're young with no obligations.....do it now or forever hold your peace.

2) Don't worry about others so much....you can only control how you play. Totally dedicate yourself to being the best player you can and let others judge you on your merits.

3) Josiah's right....you'll probably never make a ton of money unless you become one of the few elite drummers. I have 22 private students, teach part time at two colleges, gig with a working band, clinic at band camps and such, and direct the praise band at my church....yet I still sell real estate on the side to supplement my percussion income. I love the music stuff...but its not totally self-supporting. That's why Jos is going to be a lawyer or something like that, right?

[Josiah]

Indeed bill, and that's a grip of a schedual to keep.

Haha I won't be a lawyer, but a liaison/negotiator hopefully. This includes much study of business law, wich is the stage I am in now.
Truth be told.. I'd rather have the freedom of picking and choosing what I play, then be forced to take any and everything.
Also, I'm moving far away from So Cal, to a place where it's not feasable to make money as musician, that is any decent income. The cost of living is growing out of hand here. In the last 4 years this house I'm in has gone from $255K to $600k. Banks don't find drumming to be a dependable income enough to grant loans on houses for half a million.


*shrug* Times change, the music industry landscape is rapidly shifting. It's an exciting time and I'm excited to see the outcome of it all. However, I'll be watching from a more normal life, with regular hours and a steady paycheck. Wich will afford my studio in my house, and a car for my (future)wife.. without needing to worry about where my next gig comes from.

[moogoogaipan]

I'm going into the fray. You all can watch as I sink or swim.

This "musicians can't get money" talk doesn't scare me. I'm doing it.
You only live once.

[Josiah]

Awesome!


Musicians can make money. It's just not a lot, it's not regular. And when it comes to things like buying a house, or a car... banks tend to want to see pay stubs.

[jalel]

Also, I'm moving far away from So Cal, to a place where it's not feasable to make money as musician, that is any decent income. The cost of living is growing out of hand here. In the last 4 years this house I'm in has gone from $255K to $600k. Banks don't find drumming to be a dependable income enough to grant loans on houses for half a million.





Chattanooga sounds like its right up your alley:)

[moogoogaipan]

Awesome!


Musicians can make money. It's just not a lot, it's not regular. And when it comes to things like buying a house, or a car... banks tend to want to see pay stubs.
yeah, but that's why I'll have a wife who's an architect and brings in all the money.
and I'll be getting a minor in Japanese because I've always wanted to learn Japanese. I can do some translating services if times get rough

[some jive turkey]

Impressive at best. Impossible woud be more like it. I know EXACTLY how much those gigs pay. High dollar tours using session guys are nearly gone as the record companies are scrambling to get out of the way of their own collapse.


I just pulled that $100K/3 year figure out of thin air. It wasn't based on any sort of research. I was just thinking that 33K a year would be about an average, maybe lower-but-still-livable income.(depending on what economy in you live)

It's kind of like supply and demand in economics. There is an enoromous supply of musicians that exceeds the demand by far. BUT, you're right Josiah, there are a lot of possibilities these days, yet it's still not going to be an easy living. I don't even know why these myths about rock stars getting rich even exist. i read once about Cobain making only enough from Nevermind, to buy a house in Seattle with a little cheese leftover. And you have to think, Kurt Cobain/Nevermind...?, that's really about as sucessful as you could get to be.(aside from the whole suicide thing, ....we're just talking finance here).

EDIT:
not to mention, didn't Novoselic and Grohl get completely screwed out of any money from that album? So that deal we're talking about, it also included screwing over your own band mates.


*dark cloud rolls in*
glad I could sprnkle such illuminating happiness and positivity all over this thread.

*shrugs shoulders*
/Sorry

[Josiah]

yeah, but that's why I'll have a wife who's an architect and brings in all the money.
and I'll be getting a minor in Japanese because I've always wanted to learn Japanese. I can do some translating services if times get rough
Haha right on, I took japanese myself. Part of what has steered me away is having a wife. Because frankly, I can't stand being away for 4 to 6 months at a time out on tour... and most women won't put up with that either.

That's not really the major issue for me though. It's friggin living in LA. LA sucks huge balls.. well So Cal does as whole. There's not too many places to make money as a musician, and they are almost all major cities.

[dumbassdrummer]

"There's not too many places to make money as a musician, and they are almost all major cities."

I dont doubt it's certainly more difficult, but really it comes down to what you want to do as a musician. I know several players locally (Fayetteville, AR of all places) who make a living playing music. Granted, they have bands that play a great many parties, but they live well off their work.

Now, they probably dont make a quarter of what they could in LA, not to mention the fact that here you dont get studio gigs, but for people who want to make a living playing music but still want to stay out of big cities it can be done.

[Josiah]

Oh yes it can be done. There's no doubt about that. It's simply a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of it.


There's always going to be this line right? How much do you want to play vs work. being a musician IS work. You have to play stuff you don't want to, deal with people, producers, managers, clubs etc..

I know a lot of guys who have regular jobs, just so they can pick and choose what they play. That's the approach I've taken. I got a few students and the liberty to pick and choose what and who I play with.


Livign well is subjective. Livign well to me is 100k+/year with a couple cars and a decent house with a studio in it.

[jalel]

^100k a year is a shitload of money. Of course, it all depends on where you live, like you said earlier about LA.

My family makes it just fine off of a combined income of $30,000 a year (I have the forms to prove it) and currently there are 7 people living in my house.

[Josiah]

Yea exactly, it's about location. Andn o doubt!

Here, the house next door just sold for $630,000.... that's like a 2,500/month house payment. That's your 30k/year right there alone.


Wich is why I'm moving way away from here..!

jalel you on aim? Cause that's exactly what I'm talkin about man.. haha

[Drum Monkey]

There's definitely jobs in the music business, like it's been said before, but most are not as glamourous as you may think. I agree with everything I have read in this thread, but if music is your true passion, and you are serious about it, and are willing to make sacrifices, don't let any of this scare you.

-DM

[moogoogaipan]

I don't see what the big problem is of having to play music that you dont want to.
I mean, wedding gigs aren't musicians' most anticipated events, but they can pay a lot and if you make it fun, it can be.

[Seafroggys]

yeah seriously, I don't mind drumming to pop and rock songs at a wedding. I mean, its at least halfway decent music, and its fun, and you get to drum!

[billdrum]

I can't tell you how many times I've played songs I don't like in the name of a paycheck! In general, I'm picky about who I play with, so I've usually got good musicians around me, which can make playing any kind of music fun. And if the crowd's into what you are doing, and you do it well, all's good.

[Josiah]

yeah seriously, I don't mind drumming to pop and rock songs at a wedding. I mean, its at least halfway decent music, and its fun, and you get to drum!

haha no no.. I see you guys have not encountered it yet. I'm not talkin bout playin top 40 tunes for a corperate band.

It's more like playing a ho-bo country set, or some hispanic music, etc.. trust me, there is a TON of music out there that will just bore you to tears, or make you want to just walk away.

Or playing for churches (big money maker here), man you run into some crazy issues with that one!

Ups and Downs. The Downs make the Ups seem that much better.

P.S. Playing in a tux sucks...

[beaker_747]

P.S. Playing in a tux sucks...
Qft.

Cumberbunds are killers though

[moogoogaipan]

P.S. Playing in a tux sucks...
I don't know man...

... I like playing in a tux. Of course I used to do it all the time for orchestral purposes, but I think it's fun to be "dressed up"

[Seafroggys]

tuxes suck....bowties are even worse.

I don't mind being in slacks, white dress shirt with black tie. If I'm wearing nice clothes, though, my favorite is black slacks, black dress shirt with a few of the top buttons undone.

[moogoogaipan]

^^boy, what's wrong with you. It's black slacks and light blue shirt with a black tie that looks the classiest.

[Seafroggys]

i don't have a light blue shirt :P I have a funky light green shirt though that's kinda cool.

and nothing screams sexy like a dress shirt with the top few buttons undone.

[Loser]

Imagine playing in a zoot suit.

[moogoogaipan]

^^sorry, but that's not something spectacularly amusing because everyone still does it.

seriously, 3 out of 5 people at most of my University's Jazz concerts ends up wearing one.

[Loser]

^^sorry, but that's not something spectacularly amusing because everyone still does it.

seriously, 3 out of 5 people at most of my University's Jazz concerts ends up wearing one.


Are they real zoot suits?

[moogoogaipan]

usually a couple of them are... some are just pinstriped.

[some jive turkey]

Sorry, but I would lmao if I saw some dipshit playing jazz in a zoot suit today.

I'm almost to the point that I hate drumming in long sleeves. But I still try to be professional looking if a gig calls for it. However, as a drummer, there are some issues to consider that other musicians don't have to deal with.

I like, and apply the "minus one, dress down rule", if I can get away with it. In the real world, I've noticed that drummers usually tend to be the least dressed up member. If you've ever had to carry your set in, set it up, and start playing, you know why. If other dudes in the band are wearing jackets and ties, I try to ditch the jacket when I sit down to play(gets too hot), maybe the tie, depending on the vibe. If it's semi formal and they're wearing just nice dress shirts or sweaters, i might try short sleeved dress shirt.
Mostly, it's all about the shoes. If you wear some slick dress shoes, you won't look bad. Silly, but true-shoes count for a lot more of you're appearance than you might think. A lot of people will look at your feet anyway since they are moving.
Most people really cant tell what you're wearing behind the drum set anyway, but I wouldn't take this as an excuse to show up to a classy, well paying gig in a wife-beater, a doo rag, and flip flops.

[beaker_747]

Sleeves rolled up, loose tie, first two buttons undone = secks

[Laney]

Its never the music I have the problem with, always the bad attitudes of the people in charge who are generally BAD musicians!!

Drummers are still people and courtesy goes a long way!

[flyguy]

i cant stand dressing up when i play. even when im playing jazz gigs in the city at a fancy place ill still keep the jeans and t shirt. hell i dont even dress up for wedding gigs (unless they specifically require it).

now i am fully aware of the "professionalism" issue, but ill do that with my playing and my personality. i'm a drummer and not some corporate business executive.

[Josiah]

I've taken some jive turkey's approach as well. Nice polo shirt, slacks.. through on some ralph lauren's and you suddenly look a lot better. A nice watch helps too.

Exactly though what I was saying. Unless you got a tech.. carting/setup/down/cartout sucks in dress clothes.

Also climate makes a difference.. it's 80+ here year round. Playing a tux when it's 85 out at a wedding just isn't fun.

[sdmfinada]

I've taken some jive turkey's approach as well. Nice polo shirt, slacks.. through on some ralph lauren's and you suddenly look a lot better. A nice watch helps too.

Exactly though what I was saying. Unless you got a tech.. carting/setup/down/cartout sucks in dress clothes.

Also climate makes a difference.. it's 80+ here year round. Playing a tux when it's 85 out at a wedding just isn't fun.

omg man you got it easy, try living in oklahoma...90-100 degrees like three months straight and the humidity just adds to that. its insane...so don't take the 80s for granted my friend.

[raz0r]

omg man you got it easy, try living in oklahoma...90-100 degrees like three months straight and the humidity just adds to that. its insane...so don't take the 80s for granted my friend.
Isn't California hotter than Oklahoma?

[sdmfinada]

Isn't California hotter than Oklahoma?

omg no. not even close. the average temp for july in oklahoma city is 82 and keep in mind thats an average of the temperature throughout the days of the month of july, so in the middle of the day its like 95 and at night its like 70. L.A.'s average temp for the same month is only like 69 or 70 so yeah oklahoma defenitely hotter and its terribly humid.