Cheat!

[Laetus]

"Cheat where you can!"
A thing that incarnated theory fanatics call bull****.. But I wonder.. What's you guys position on this?

(To specify it.. Cheat where you can is in reference to making playing, say, a guitar easier, but involves 'killing' some theory and developing an easier way to play it.. With the same sound.. Like using the index finger, the middle finger and the ring finger, where theory says index, middle and pinky)

[Mr. Grill]

I think that its better learning the proper technique in the first place so it becomes second nature.

[rocknrollstar5]

Play the easiest, simplest and most confortable way you can i say

[shayne_122]

Play the easiest, simplest and most confortable way you can i say

So that when it becomes necessary to play more difficult material, you'll be stuck?

[Moseph]

It's a preference thing I think. I'd like to be able say I have perfect technique in everything, but sometimes I like that I can do things regardless of how technically correct.

Just think though, if some people didn't "cheat" we wouldn't have seen the musical works of musicians like Django Reinhardt, Tony Iommi, and Ray Charles.

Sometimes having to change things is good.

[rocknrollstar5]

So that when it becomes necessary to play more difficult material, you'll be stuck?

i didnt mean that, i just meant dont make things harder than they have to be

[Seafroggys]

if people didn't cheat, everything will sound like Bach.

[shayne_122]

i didnt mean that, i just meant dont make things harder than they have to be

Ah. my bad.

[Alive]

So that when it becomes necessary to play more difficult material, you'll be stuck?

No, you continue to play it in the most simple, comfortable way you can.

[Knifeboy]

The correct technique is always the simplest most comfortable one, that's why it's the correct technique...
The problem is though, that if something isn't the correct technique, for example, if it's straining your wrist.. It could feel comfortable now, but could take months, or even years before the damage start showing...

[Laetus]

Well.. When I play Ode To Joy on my guitar, I play it with some altered notes, but it still sounds exactly like Ode To Joy, the fact is, that my version is easier to play, but has the same result.

What is the proper technique? In the example of playing guitar - the only real techniques you need to use are those that wont damage your hands/fingers in the long run.. Else, I say.. Cheat where ever you can.

The song is easier to play with a capo? Strap one on..
Can you get away with playing an F like this:

e|---|
B|-1-|
G|-2-|
D|-3-|
A|---|
E|---|

Even when the song book say you must play like this:

e|-1-|
B|-1-|
G|-2-|
D|-3-|
A|-3-|
E|-1-|

Then do it!

[Mispeled]

The correct technique is always the simplest most comfortable one, that's why it's the correct technique...
Not everyone has the same size hands, not every guitar has the same profile neck, not everyone's fingers are the same proportions.

[Laetus]

Not everyone has the same size hands, not every guitar has the same profile neck, not everyone's fingers are the same proportions.

Which makes me think of an analogy..
It's like.. Running is healthy for some, but if you have astma or something like that, it can be dangerous.

[Mispeled]

Which makes me think of an analogy..
It's like.. Running is healthy for some, but if you have astma or something like that, it can be dangerous.
I think a better analogy would be someone who has both a sports car and a pickup truck, and drives the sports car the way they'd drive the pickup truck. If you did it the other way around it come be potentially dangerous, but if you drive the sports car like a pickup you're not using a lot of the potential that the sports car has.

[Laetus]

I think a better analogy would be someone who has both a sports car and a pickup truck, and drives the sports car the way they'd drive the pickup truck. If you did it the other way around it come be potentially dangerous, but if you drive the sports car like a pickup you're not using a lot of the potential that the sports car has.

Ya, yours is better.. But mine was shorter. :D
Ner ner. :p

[Knifeboy]

Not everyone has the same size hands, not every guitar has the same profile neck, not everyone's fingers are the same proportions.

So? That doesn't change that the correct technique is always the one that is the easiest, most comfortable, non damaging way to play..

[Aklerc]

If it sounds right it's fine by me :)

[Alive]

So? That doesn't change that the correct technique is always the one that is the easiest, most comfortable, non damaging way to play..

You are, of course, correct.

With your sports car and your truck, the most comfortable way to drive is still the most relaxed way, so thta you don't damage your ankles (or something, its your analogy, not mine).

Your technique should not change with speed, that is the surest way to generate tension.

[Trigger_003]

Well this thread looks like fun.

I don't really get (well I do, but you know) the threadstarter's definition of cheating the system, because their example isn't, classically, defined as cheating in the first place.

Anyway, it's worth developing your technique to one that is accepted as being correct (it'll make you play better and prevent causing damage, yada yada), but just because your technique is labelled as being so doesn't mean it has to be done exactly the same way as the next person who has "correct technique". In fact loads of articles say you shouldn't look impersonate the exact, say, position of the picking hand of the great classical players because they've had whichever method(S) they're using adapted to their bodily makeup; doing the same could actually be bad for your playing just because your wrist is set up totally differently to yours.

There are a range of methods and variations out there; as long as you're within the realms of what is accepted then it can, really, be labelled as correct. Unless you get down into the nitty gritty of perfectionists arguing that their method is THE one and ONLY way to do it. But hardly anyone states that their method is the only way... so who knows what "cheating" really is?

[Laetus]

Cheating is.. Making it easier to play.

First:
Index finger = 1
Middle finger = 2
Ring finger = 3
Pinky = 4
__

Like if you had to play a C chord on a guitar - theory suggest that you should play it like this.

e|-3-|(1)
B|-5-|(4)
G|-5-|(3)
D|-5-|(2)
A|-3-|(1)
E|---|

But.. If you play it like this:

e|-3-|(1)
B|-5-|(3)
G|-5-|(3)
D|-5-|(3)
A|-3-|(1)
E|---|

Or..

e|---|
B|-5-|(3)
G|-5-|(3)
D|-5-|(3)
A|-3-|(1)
E|---|

You would still end up with an equal chord to the theoretical correct one.. But an easier one to play - and in this case, even with less strain.

[kidthatplaysguitar91]

I think that its better learning the proper technique in the first place so it becomes second nature.


Def.

Eventually your gonna get something that you need to do the correct technique.

[Knifeboy]

Like if you had to play a C chord on a guitar - theory suggest that you should play it like this.


uh, no it doesn't

"Theory" (logic) dictates that you should play it the way that makes the most sense depending on wich chord comes before and after...

[Laetus]

uh, no it doesn't

"Theory" (logic) dictates that you should play it the way that makes the most sense depending on wich chord comes before and after...

Where you often can make up your own ways of playing the chord to make it easier to get to the next - like I illustrated. I know of at least 2 or 3 guitar teachers in my town that are hell bend on that you MUST play the chords exactly like they are illustrated in the book.
If we just think of the first five frets and think C, then they only allow you to play the chord like this:

e|-0-|(0)
B|-1-|(1)
G|-0-|(0)
D|-2-|(2)
A|-3-|(3)
E|---|

Or

e|-3-|(1)
B|-5-|(4)
G|-5-|(3)
D|-5-|(2)
A|-3-|(1)
E|---|

Of course.. It gives an ok practice in flexibility, but even the more advanced students must play it like that. (Example #1 is difficult to change of course)
I mean, in the case of example #2 I would definatly prefer to play the chord like this:

e|-3-|(1)
B|-5-|(3)
G|-5-|(3)
D|-5-|(3)
A|-3-|(1)
E|---|

Why make it more difficult than it has to be?

[Knifeboy]

That's just because those teachers are idiots? It got **** all to do with "theory"

[kidthatplaysguitar91]

e|-3-|(1)
B|-5-|(4)
G|-5-|(3)
D|-5-|(2)
A|-3-|(1)
E|---|




Never seen anyone suggest or teach to play it like that. Dont think theory says that.....

[Laetus]

Never seen anyone suggest or teach to play it like that. Dont think theory says that.....

I've seen it several times - but it is older books etc. though.
Theory is like science, it keeps changing when something new and better comes up.

[Trigger_003]

Laetus, I don't think your connotation of "theory" is the same as our understanding of music theory. Are you sure you're not meaning "technique"? Because everything you're talking about here relates more directly to guitar-specific playing technique than it does to anything much to do about theory.

Theory - real music theory (is this what we're even talking about in this thread? I think you're using the wrong word here) - doesn't say you have to play a chord any specific way in terms of fingering. In terms of notes that must be within the chord, and perhaps the order of pitch that those notes are in (depends on the context), yes, but there isn't a set way that you HAVE to play a chord, in terms of using a specific finger on a specific string...

Personally, I find it easier and more accurate to finger that barre chord with all three fingers, but yeah, that's just me.
If you find it easier the other way, go ahead, by all means. The main reasons I can see for your teachers to tell that are because either they can see that you're doing it very wrongly; in such a way that could pose problems with your hand/arm/wrist, or they can see that it is in some other way having an adverse effect upon your playing ability, through efficiency, tone, flexibility, or by some other means.