Palestine & Israel

[coheneran]

I know there've been lots of threads on this, but I didn't want to go grave-digging so I made a new one. I want to discuss mostly the repression of Palestinian protests and IDF violence against unarmed civilian demonstrators, both Israelis and Palestinians. Here's a video of a demo against the wall about two years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz8x2NqInsk

It's got Israeli, Palestinian and international demonstrators who are being shot at with live ammunition. Just to translate a few things in there, about four minutes through an Israeli protestor is shouting in Hebrew "Nobody is threatening you! Put down your weapons! Stop shooting! There are international cameras here! You have no reason to shoot! Nobody is being violent and you are shooting!" These protests happen every week, organised by Palestinians and a group called Anarchists Against the Wall. I've been to one, it wasn't pleasant.

I'm sure you all know about the current situation, but for those who don't (ie. those who are blind, deaf and stupid), I'll give you some information:

Since about 2001 (I think it was) the Israeli government has been building a wall, about thirty feet high and five feet thick, to surround the whole Western border of the West Bank, that's the side facing Israel, the other side is facing the River Jordan (its Western bank, hence the name), beyond which is Jordan proper. Originally Sharon promised that this is a temporary defence measure, but just recently our newly elected Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, announced that the Apartheid Wall will mark the new Israeli-Palestinian West Bank border, excepting a few minor changes to the map (the annexation of a few more miles of Palestinian land). In effect, this wall is putting Palestinians in a ghetto, surrounded by a wall and barbed wire on the West and North, the Jordanian border in the East, and the rapidly drying Dead Sea in the South. This wall is being built on Palestinian land, through Palestinian villages. In many cases it is cutting off farmers from their fields and villages from their market towns. Of course, those are just the obvious economic implications.

I think that's enough for now.

Discuss.

[PepsiMetal]

I'm not sure how this wall will actually work. Palestinians are basically living in poverty, and this wall will take them further away from a normal society, which could even worsen their conditions. Fatah are trying to convince Hamas to change their mind and accept Israel as existence.

But apperently (http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties.asp), more Palestinians have been killed than vice versa. I'm really undecided and split on this case. They both have valid and invalid points.

[WhoDidTheElf]

According to the video they weren't shooting the live rounds, they were shooting rubber bullets. But that there were snipers with live rounds.

[Squirrel]

I don't really know where to stand on the issue.

It's two sided and I don't believe i hold enough facts to decide.

Currently though I am an Israeli sympathizer, based on the medias portrayal of Palestinians in the Western media.

[coheneran]

The logic behind the wall is so basic it's childlike. The reasoning is that if there's a big ****off wall between Israel and Palestine, suicide bombers won't get in. This is, of course, bullcrap. Israeli forces let suicide bombers in. They don't hold their hand and walk them through the border, but the checkpoints are opened and the soldiers in the area are called off-duty, so the roads are unguarded, which is literally unheard of. This happened the last time there was an attack on Israel, a couple of months ago.

[-1up!-]

I'm really pro-Palestinian :)

[coheneran]

Currently though I am an Israeli sympathizer, based on the medias portrayal of Palestinians in the Western media.

I know, sometimes watching the news reports on Palestine is just incredible. They are the stuff of fantasy. Due to bad media portrayal, the whole world thinks that Israel is poor little David with his sling and stone and that Palestine is mighty and cruel Goliath with a mechanized army. In fact it's the other way around, but only in the military view. The reality is that only a tiny fraction of Palestinians want to keep fighting Israel, and that tiny fraction stays alive because they corrupt young, naive and impressionable boys who are angry with Israel, they spout religious dogma at them and they strap bombs on their chests. And all that the boys back in Israel wanna do is party and go to university, but they have to give two years of the end of their childhood to military service, in which they get shown how Palestinians all wanna kill the Jews and how Arabs are comparable to Nazis, then they get sent out into the refugee camps and Palestinian neighbourhoods and villages with guns and told to patrol.

If you can, get hold of a movie called Paradise Now, it's about two Palestinian men (no more than 23 or 24 years old) who have been selected to be suicide bombers.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

Coheneran, you are completely and utterly full of ****

[coheneran]

How concise of you, wanna expand on that for me?

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

This is rubbish:
I know, sometimes watching the news reports on Palestine is just incredible. They are the stuff of fantasy. Due to bad media portrayal, the whole world thinks that Israel is poor little David with his sling and stone and that Palestine is mighty and cruel Goliath with a mechanized army. In fact it's the other way around, but only in the military view.Seriously, you're just inventing this stuff.

[Britney Diva]

Except David actually won.

[coheneran]

It's pretty much true, apart from a report now and then about some BIG thing that Israel did to the Palestinians. Trust me dude, most people in the world won't ever even hear a rumour about the stuff that Israel does. Man, Israel's (supposed-to-be) secret prisons make Guantanamo Bay look like a nice day on a Carribbean beach. There was one I remember in particular, in a place called Prison 6, about interrogators making a nude Palestinian prison sit on an upright truncheon. There's also stuff about electric torture, psychological torture etc.. Stuff people don't want to think about.

[coheneran]

Except David actually won.

Don't get cheeky boy.:mad:

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

no, the bbc is hardly pro-israeli, nor are the other channels.

[coheneran]

Seriously, you're just inventing this stuff.

Yeah, I am spouting bollocks. Everyone knows Israel's army is tiny and weak and has no real firepower, but every Palestinian home is equipped with AK47s, a secret helicopter pad for their private Cobra attack choppers, and dirty uranium bombs in the basement where they say they keep the "olive oil."

[BassRevelation1029]

LoL at ridiculous thread

Except David actually won.
:lol:

[coheneran]

no, the bbc is hardly pro-israeli, nor are the other channels.

The international media doesn't show anything. They don't tell you Palestinians die every day, that they're shot at every day, that they can't go out for milk without a permit. All they tell you about is when an international journalist gets shot by the IDF, when a bomb goes off in central Tel-Aviv, or when Israel slaughters a thousand people. Anything below a thousand isn't newsworthy, apparantly.

[coheneran]

Do you have any sources for this beyond your grandmother telling you that that's what happened or whatever it was? Because I haven't seen that allegation made anywhere else at all.

I can try to find some, but I doubt I'll find any. As for my zionist racist grandmother, no, she wouldn't step foot within ten meters of an Arab if she could help it. I was with my family in Israel on that day, and my parents drove to Ramalla to see a friend of theirs, when they came back they told me they didn't see a soldier coming and going and that the checkpoints were all open.


The international media doesn't tell us all sorts of things, since the Israel/Palestine conflict doesn't itself actually directly impact most people in the West. As for saying that "anything below a thousand isn't newsworthy", it's simply nonsense. Jenin in 2002 was huge news here in the UK, as have been crimes committed by Israeli soldiers. The media here in the UK is constantly attacked from both sides when the fact is that both Israeli and Palestinian crimes are reported.

Read the Israeli indymedia and compare it with what we hear from mainstream media about Israel, the number of facts we get from one against the number we get from another.

[Britney Diva]

The international media doesn't show anything. They don't tell you Palestinians die every day, that they're shot at every day, that they can't go out for milk without a permit. All they tell you about is when an international journalist gets shot by the IDF, when a bomb goes off in central Tel-Aviv, or when Israel slaughters a thousand people. Anything below a thousand isn't newsworthy, apparantly.
The media doesn't tell us things that happen everyday; that would make 'news' redundant. The BBC has done numerous spotlights on the conflict that present the points of view of all sides of the debate.

[coheneran]

It's pointless for us to argue how much the international media shows, because I've grown up with direct involvement in what's happening, and saw it through Israeli media (both right and left wing), international media and independent media. I don't know what you guys watch/read for news, but I assume the mainstream media newspapers and TV stations, but correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: Can't find any sources on the roads being cleared that day, absolutely nothing apart from how many people he killed. Feel free to disregard what I said, however I don't think my parents lied.

[BassRevelation1029]

EDIT: Can't find any sources on the roads being cleared that day, absolutely nothing apart from how many people he killed. Feel free to disregard what I said, however I don't think my parents lied.
ive heard of times when Palestinian media reported Israel demolishing an entire compound of Palestinian civilians. Some people laughed at that, seeing how they were there that day and the houses were still standing. Hows that for no-witness news?

[coheneran]

ive heard of times when Palestinian media reported Israel demolishing an entire compound of Palestinian civilians. Some people laughed at that, seeing how they were there that day and the houses were still standing. Hows that for no-witness news?

Hey man, I'm not telling you to take everything I say as truth, because from where you're standing I could easily be lying. All I can tell you is that I'm as sure as I can be that the day before that attack no one was guarding the road into Israel from Ramalla, but I won't think any less of you for not believing me, because I can't source it.

[BassRevelation1029]

I didnt say you were lying. Im just saying the media isnt always telling the truth. In this case, they werent

[Hababi]

Hey another Israel thread for me to comment in :p

Anyway, heres' the BDR doctrine:
Israel is in a war with Islamic radicals that have come to lead the Palestinian people. The only way to ever make things better is to treat it like a war, completely crush Fatah, the PLO, Hamas, and ever other radical Islamic group. Complete a security wall around the entire state of Israel. That's the solution. Their war, like our war, is one against radical Islam.

[-1up!-]

...no use argumenting.

[coheneran]

Hey another Israel thread for me to comment in :p

Anyway, heres' the BDR doctrine:
Israel is in a war with Islamic radicals that have come to lead the Palestinian people. The only way to ever make things better is to treat it like a war, completely crush Fatah, the PLO, Hamas, and ever other radical Islamic group. Complete a security wall around the entire state of Israel. That's the solution. Their war, like our war, is one against radical Islam.

Fatah is the PLO gone political party. The PLO doesn't exist anymore, and even when it did, it was never about Islam, it was about liberation. Hamas, on the other hand, was backed by Israel from it's small beginnings to create division in Palestinian fighters' ranks and to oppose the PLO. Hamas wouldn't be here as it is were it not for short-sighted Israeli policies. Hizaballah is backed by Iran, and Islamic Jihad, as far as I know, is an unorganised network of Islamic-based resistance. Their struggle isn't about Palestine, it's about the Ummah. They are the ones responsible for the last five or six attacks on Israel, as there seems to be a consensual cease-fire between Israel and the other Palestinian militant organisations.

Hamas is no longer a terrorist organisation, they have too much to lose. The problem is "miscommunication", one could say. I believe Hamas was voted in not because they refuse to recognize Israel, but because they seemed to be the only ones who would sort out the basic and emergency services, as well as the infastructure. I believe the great irony is that the Hamas elite don't think this is the only reason, and so they think if they officially recognise Israel as a legal country, they will lose popular support. Just a theory of course, based on the fact that most Palestinians just want peace and self-dependency.

War is not the solution because Israel will be the obvious winner and there will be no such people as the Palestinians any more. We cannot let that happen, ever, not to the Jews and not to the Palestinians. It saddens me to say it, but the only solution for the Palestinians now is to get media attention and lie down in front of the tanks, Gandhi-style; "We will not move from you, we will not move against you."

[Hababi]

It saddens me to say it, but the only solution for the Palestinians now is to get media attention and lie down in front of the tanks, Gandhi-style; "We will not move from you, we will not move against you."


If the Palestinians were peaceful, there'd be no tanks. There are tanks because of the violence of the Palestinians, because of their terrorism, because of that rat scumbag Arafat and his legacy of bloodshed. If the Palestinians would stop killing Jews, assaulting soldiers, etc. all the trouble would stop and the two sides would coexist. But they won't. The Palestinians want to kill Jews, they want to eliminate the Jews. The radicals that are their voices are NOT interested in peace, they are only interested in bloodshed.

[coheneran]

If the Palestinians were peaceful, there'd be no tanks. There are tanks because of the violence of the Palestinians, because of their terrorism, because of that rat scumbag Arafat and his legacy of bloodshed. If the Palestinians would stop killing Jews, assaulting soldiers, etc. all the trouble would stop and the two sides would coexist. But they won't. The Palestinians want to kill Jews, they want to eliminate the Jews. The radicals that are their voices are NOT interested in peace, they are only interested in bloodshed.

Lol @ blind prejudice.

Shall we take a look at some of the Israeli leaders' voices?

Ben Gurion, Founder of the Israeli State and first Prime Minister:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."


"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Yitzhak Shamir, Prime Minister and professional Bastard Murderer:

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."

As for Ehud Barak, when he was asked what he would have done had he been born a Palestinian, he answered "I would have joined a terrorist organization."

Didn't Hitler say things like "The Jews don't want peace! They want to control Germany and steal the working people's money! They hate us!" Kind of similar to what you are saying.

[dislocated214]

I was born under an apparatus
that downgraded my class status
from citizen to subhuman savage,
it's hard to fathom but even harder to manage
I'm a second class citizen in the land of my origin
forced to forage in a brutal reality
that's devoid of humanity
for some semblance of sanity, where truth is profanity,
and in all actuality my right to life is
con-sidered a travesty,

we can't even bury friends
without the threat of their military showing up to carry out their vendetta,
a policy of extermination against an indigenous population
that's been fighting for emancipation

you want to end the violence?
Then end the occupation
you want to see defiance?
Then deny us liberation.
This is Apartheid Palestine
where sniper fire gets showered from Israeli watchtowers.


http://sonofnun.net/lyrics-freepalestine.shtml

Local rapper, Son of Nun of Baltimore, MD.

[coheneran]

On the subject of good Palestine Solidarity lyrics:


They're building a wall
Between water and land
So we can eat fruit
And they can eat sand
A wall to make sure
That our orchards will grow
And our kids can get fat
And not need to know
Of the cities in ruins
And the children in fear
That your fathers and brothers
In tanks might be near
A wall to keep quiet
That which you fear most
So you don't have to listen
To your grandfather's ghost

That's just one verse from a kickarse song. The rest of the lyrics are here (http://www.davidrovics.com/) (on the album Songs For Mahmoud) and you can download the song from the same link.

[Britney Diva]

You know what would promote peace in the middle east? A free concert!

[coheneran]

You know what would promote peace in the middle east? A free concert!

Roger Waters just had a concert in Neve Shalom (a village with a mixed Israeli and Arab population, a role model for how Israel and Palestine should be. It means Fountain of Peace).

[Britney Diva]

I was thinking more of a Tom Arico event.

[dislocated214]

George Michael.

CORRECTION:

David Hasselhoff...and then send in Bush to be like "Mr. Prime Minister, tear down this wall!"

[coheneran]

Stop spamming my thread!:p

[Surgicalgod]

I've so many Palestine-related threads and my posts are always something like this.

I understand that suicide bombing and killing innocent Israeli civilians is wrong, but this would have never happened if Israel didn't 'start it'. Israel committed various massacres in both Lebanon and Palestine. Such actions fuel the vunerable, got-nothing-to-lose Muslims and turns them to extremists.

Also, if you go back to history, the land belongs to Palestinians.

[coheneran]

My view on the property rights and land ownership is anarchist and humanist. Neither can lay claim to the land, because it all depends on how far back in history you choose to look. I would prefer no countries there to two countries.

[Zesty Mordant]

seriously, is this issue is a black-and-white as its often made out to be? not that I'm stereotyping but I've never met a Palestinian who sympathizes or understands the Israeli side and vice-versa. How come there aren't any major joint oppositions to the issue?

At this point, I, along with I'm sure are the rest of the Western population have no sympathy for either side any more.

[-1up!-]

Fundamentally, Israel exists because the land was taken away from Palestinians. it is theft under every way you examine it -- Israel has no legitimacy whatsoever. Given that, my sympathies remain with Palestinians.

[lfantwister]

Fatah is the PLO gone political party. The PLO doesn't exist anymore, and even when it did, it was never about Islam, it was about liberation. Hamas, on the other hand, was backed by Israel from it's small beginnings to create division in Palestinian fighters' ranks and to oppose the PLO. Hamas wouldn't be here as it is were it not for short-sighted Israeli policies. Hizaballah is backed by Iran, and Islamic Jihad, as far as I know, is an unorganised network of Islamic-based resistance. Their struggle isn't about Palestine, it's about the Ummah. They are the ones responsible for the last five or six attacks on Israel, as there seems to be a consensual cease-fire between Israel and the other Palestinian militant organisations. Islamic Jihad is separate from Hamas, even though they are very similar in that they came from the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas is much more politically-savvy and doesnt' crack under interrogation. But as for the truce that Hamas has called, it has only been broken once, and that was in August 05. It should be good for a few more years (its a ten year hudna signed in Jan 04)

Hamas is no longer a terrorist organisation, they have too much to lose. The problem is "miscommunication", one could say. I believe Hamas was voted in not because they refuse to recognize Israel, but because they seemed to be the only ones who would sort out the basic and emergency services, as well as the infastructure. I believe the great irony is that the Hamas elite don't think this is the only reason, and so they think if they officially recognise Israel as a legal country, they will lose popular support. Just a theory of course, based on the fact that most Palestinians just want peace and self-dependency. And social services. Hamas is reknowned throughout the region as a sort of supercharity. Since it was inextricably intertwined with the muslim brotherhood, it just built on the existing powerful Islamic infrastructure of that group and made it more poilitically savvy. It created orphanages, infirmaries, libraries, and seminaries at a rapid pace, spreading fundamentalist Sunni Islam along the way. It allocated welfare, loans, and scholarships, and helped needy people locate and pay for lawyers if circumstance required. The Brotherhood took over the Islamic University and very successfully spread religious passion—between 1967 and 1987 the number of worshippers in Gaza doubled.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

Fundamentally, Israel exists because the land was taken away from Palestinians. it is theft under every way you examine it -- Israel has no legitimacy whatsoever. Given that, my sympathies remain with Palestinians.

Before Israel was formed, the land belonged to Britain. Before that, it belonged to the Ottomans. The land hasn't been in control of native peoples since the 1400s

As for the West Bank, Gaza Strip, etc., that land belongs to the countries from whom it was taken, not some Palestinian pseudo-state. Of course, those countries don't want the land back because the people inhabiting them are the trailer trash of the Middle East. That's why all other countries in the region have turned down Palestinian "refugees".

You can't be a refugee for 30 years. Eventually, the land just ceases to be yours

And social services. Hamas is reknowned throughout the region as a sort of supercharity. Since it was inextricably intertwined with the muslim brotherhood, it just built on the existing powerful Islamic infrastructure of that group and made it more poilitically savvy. It created orphanages, infirmaries, libraries, and seminaries at a rapid pace, spreading fundamentalist Sunni Islam along the way. It allocated welfare, loans, and scholarships, and helped needy people locate and pay for lawyers if circumstance required. The Brotherhood took over the Islamic University and very successfully spread religious passion—between 1967 and 1987 the number of worshippers in Gaza doubled.

Yes. And Latin American drug lords do marvelous things for their communities. It doesn't take away from the fact that they kill people achieve what ever they want

[Rats!]

And social services. Hamas is reknowned throughout the region as a sort of supercharity. Since it was inextricably intertwined with the muslim brotherhood, it just built on the existing powerful Islamic infrastructure of that group and made it more poilitically savvy. It created orphanages, infirmaries, libraries, and seminaries at a rapid pace, spreading fundamentalist Sunni Islam along the way. It allocated welfare, loans, and scholarships, and helped needy people locate and pay for lawyers if circumstance required. The Brotherhood took over the Islamic University and very successfully spread religious passion—between 1967 and 1987 the number of worshippers in Gaza doubled.
If you're talking about those orphanages that raise kids to be suicide bombers; infirmaries which deliberately turn away the wounded so they die and become another statistic, so Palestinians can further advertise the high number of Palestinian deaths compared to Israelis in order to get world sympathy; libraries which stock nothing but anti-Semitic and radical Islamic propaganda; and schools and seminaries which use that same material for the curriculum, then you're right.

[PepsiMetal]

That's why all other countries in the region have turned down Palestinian "refugees".

I don't think that's really their reason. They probably just don't want to accept immigrants just like no one else wants to. It's not easy for any country to accept millions of immigrants, refugees, etc...

Biggest palestinian mistake was that they refused UN's offer to split the land after WWII. It was kind of a cheap play by Britain to give any portion of the land to the natives. That's really not fair at all, as most native people don't like on their native land today. Palestinians were the occupants there, and even though UN didn't recognize it, they probably thought they would get that land as they were a majority there then. Oh well, UN ****ing something up and not fixing it. So what else is new?

[coheneran]

Fundamentally, Israel exists because the land was taken away from Palestinians. it is theft under every way you examine it -- Israel has no legitimacy whatsoever. Given that, my sympathies remain with Palestinians.

But do you recognize the right for Israelis to live there? We cannot throw out someone because we want to live there, it is their home, and on the same logic, we cannot be thrown out because our grandparents were terrorists and murderers (that's right, who was wanted by the Brits for terrorism with a £5000 DoA price on his head? You got it, former Prime Minister Menachem Begin, who blew up brits in a hotel in Jerusalem), we have grown up there and it is equally our home as it is the Palestinian childrens' home.

Of course, those countries don't want the land back because the people inhabiting them are the trailer trash of the Middle East. That's why all other countries in the region have turned down Palestinian "refugees".

That's racist and ignorant. The Palestinians were farmers and shepherds and were living pretty well off the land before the Jews came and "reclaimed" it. Under Ottoman rule, under Arabian rule, under Byzantine rule, they never cared because no one ever tried to move them. What does it matter who's ruling if all you wanna do is farm? Nobody was gonna stop them. Countries turn down Palestinian refugees because Israel gets on their case otherwise. Like that Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon, what was it called? Oh yes, Sabra and Shatilla, where the IDF and Chrtistian militants slaughtered women, children and men, 2000 of them. Countries in the area won't take refugees because they don't want a Sabra and Shatilla in their borders! By calling the Palestinian people trailer trash, you're saying that they're all the same, that they're all stupid, that they're all anti-Jewish, and that is just plain racist.

FYI: Palestine was never under British rule, it was under a British mandate. That means the Brits just had an army there and kept the peace, they didn't govern it.

If you're talking about those orphanages that raise kids to be suicide bombers; infirmaries which deliberately turn away the wounded so they die and become another statistic, so Palestinians can further advertise the high number of Palestinian deaths compared to Israelis in order to get world sympathy; libraries which stock nothing but anti-Semitic and radical Islamic propaganda; and schools and seminaries which use that same material for the curriculum, then you're right.

Can you prove any of that? I've never heard any of those accusations apart from schools teaching to hate Jews, that was a news story in Israel a long time ago and it turned out to be bollocks too.

Another FYI: The Palestinians are Semites too, and the Syrians. Not a lot of people know this.

Biggest palestinian mistake was that they refused UN's offer to split the land after WWII. It was kind of a cheap play by Britain to give any portion of the land to the natives. That's really not fair at all, as most native people don't like on their native land today. Palestinians were the occupants there, and even though UN didn't recognize it, they probably thought they would get that land as they were a majority there then. Oh well, UN ****ing something up and not fixing it. So what else is new?

But you can understand why they refused right? I mean, put yourself in their shoes: You were born in Palestine, you're a Palestinian, there're some Brits here, and every year, more Jews. But you don't mind, they're not really doing anything much to you. So you keep on farming and shepherding, and then one day, a man comes on the radio and says that some committee far away has decided that the land you live on, and which your ancestors have been living on for literally uncountable generations, is suddenly not your country anymore. How could anyone accept that straight away!? I don't know what I would have done had I been a Palestinian then, but pack up my bags and leave is one thing I would rather die than do.

[Danish]

My view on the property rights and land ownership is anarchist and humanist. Neither can lay claim to the land, because it all depends on how far back in history you choose to look. I would prefer no countries there to two countries.

Are you an Israeli Jew?

I only ask because I'm curious as to weather or not you've ever lived on a kibbutz.

[coheneran]

Are you an Israeli Jew?

I only ask because I'm curious as to weather or not you've ever lived on a kibbutz.

Whether*

Yeah, Israeli Jew. Back in the hayday of my anti-Zionism I referred to myself as Palestinian. Not anymore.

I've been on a kibbutz a few times, never actively lived there, there aren't many around anymore, and the ones that are left have had their self-dependency and autonomy taken away by a capitalist government, so what we have left now is a bunch of tourist kibbutzes where people pay to have a farming holiday. It's incredibly stupid.

[Danish]

Whether*

Yeah, Israeli Jew. Back in the hayday of my anti-Zionism I referred to myself as Palestinian. Not anymore.

I've been on a kibbutz a few times, never actively lived there, there aren't many around anymore, and the ones that are left have had their self-dependency and autonomy taken away by a capitalist government, so what we have left now is a bunch of tourist kibbutzes where people pay to have a farming holiday. It's incredibly stupid.

Bah! Such a stupid spelling mistake...

A farming holiday? That is... hilarious.

[coheneran]

Just think; we could have been the first Middle Eastern communism. Marx was Jewish y'know...

[shaqadelic]

I must say coheneran has the most relevant opinions and facts in this thread. I find it funny that some people who live completely in a different continent act as though they would know as much or as clearly as people like coheneran.

[lfantwister]

Yes. And Latin American drug lords do marvelous things for their communities. It doesn't take away from the fact that they kill people achieve what ever they want

But Hamas has signed a ten-year truce, a hudna. Besides, they don't even achieve whatever they want when they kill people. I think they've basically cut back on violence if not for the pragmatic political reasons then at least for the degree of practicality that suicide bombings entail
If you're talking about those orphanages that raise kids to be suicide bombers; infirmaries which deliberately turn away the wounded so they die and become another statistic, so Palestinians can further advertise the high number of Palestinian deaths compared to Israelis in order to get world sympathy; libraries which stock nothing but anti-Semitic and radical Islamic propaganda; and schools and seminaries which use that same material for the curriculum, then you're right. uh can you source some of that? I haven't heard any of that and I've done a bit of research about Hamas. The only thing that is barely applicable is the schools and seminaries bit--since Hamas and the Muslim Bortherhood are fundamentalist Sunni reactionaries there is definitely anti-Zionist propaganda and pro-Islam stuff. BUt anti-Semetic is drawing a fine line; some people say that if you're anti-Zionist you're automatically anti-Semetic, but I don't think that's the case. Hamas tolerates Christianity and Judaism (religions of the book) within society as long as it is a predominantly Muslim nation. They just hate the Zionists, not necessarily all Jews

[coheneran]

Also, semitism isn't just for Jews, it's also for Palestinians and most of Southern Syria.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

Again, in a vain attempt to look smart, you're wrong. Arabs are also semitic peoples, but anti-semitism is widely regarded as only applying to Jews.

[Danish]

Just think; we could have been the first Middle Eastern communism. Marx was Jewish y'know...

So are lots of awesome leftists. There is a long history of working-class politics in Jewish culture.

[shaqadelic]

Again, in a vain attempt to look smart, you're wrong. Arabs are also semitic peoples, but anti-semitism is widely regarded as only applying to Jews.

Um, that is not being smart at all, the fact that he lives in the area, his interpretation of anti-semitism will reflect its true meaning, not its meaning to the global society.

It's like commenting against an Englishman for using football instead of soccer in Britain.

[Britney Diva]

Coheneran lives in London.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

Um, that is not being smart at all, the fact that he lives in the area, his interpretation of anti-semitism will reflect its true meaning, not its meaning to the global society.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+anti-semitism&meta=

Yeah, that's just rubbish. Anti-semitism almost always refers to Jews.

And a brief moment of critical thought would tell you that whether he lives in the area is irrelevant to this discussion. gj

That's racist and ignorant. The Palestinians were farmers and shepherds and were living pretty well off the land before the Jews came and "reclaimed" it. Under Ottoman rule, under Arabian rule, under Byzantine rule, they never cared because no one ever tried to move them. What does it matter who's ruling if all you wanna do is farm? Nobody was gonna stop them. Countries turn down Palestinian refugees because Israel gets on their case otherwise. Like that Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon, what was it called? Oh yes, Sabra and Shatilla, where the IDF and Chrtistian militants slaughtered women, children and men, 2000 of them. Countries in the area won't take refugees because they don't want a Sabra and Shatilla in their borders! By calling the Palestinian people trailer trash, you're saying that they're all the same, that they're all stupid, that they're all anti-Jewish, and that is just plain racist.
Although fo' Shizzle's point about the sovereignty of Palestine is off the mark, I don't think you quite understand what he said. I think he was pointing out the status of Palestinians to the rest of the Arab world. It's doubtful that he has deep racist feelings against Palestinians.

But don't worry, I understand that it's far easier to throw around over-used epithets than to respond intelligently.

[coheneran]

Yeah, that's just rubbish. Anti-semitism almost always refers to Jews.

I wasn't meaning to say anti-Semitism is anti-Arab AND anti-Jewish, but I can see the implication. I just wanted to point it out, seeing as most people have no idea, and it's an interesting fact (well, when I first heard it I was very interested).

Although fo' Shizzle's point about the sovereignty of Palestine is off the mark, I don't think you quite understand what he said. I think he was pointing out the status of Palestinians to the rest of the Arab world. It's doubtful that he has deep racist feelings against Palestinians.

Those countries don't want the land back because the people inhabiting them are the trailer trash of the Middle East.

If he wanted to make it clear that these are the Arabic world's views, not his, surely he would have said something like "The view of those countries is that the Palestinian people are the trailer trash of the Mid-East." Of course, he can always correct himself, meanwhile that remark was racist.

But don't worry, I understand that it's far easier to throw around over-used epithets than to respond intelligently.

Yeah, you seem to be doing that often yourself. Are you going to argue the subject or are you going to lash out at the form and language of my posts?

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

Of course, he can always correct himself, meanwhile that remark was racist.That's not racist at all. When he says 'trailer trash' it is a figurative description of their place in the Arab world. Are you going to argue the subject or are you going to lash out at the form and language of my posts?Well, that's good because I do respond to the subject of your posts.

[coheneran]

That's not racist at all. When he says 'trailer trash' it is a figurative description of their place in the Arab world. Well, that's good because I do respond to the subject of your posts.

Face it, calling a whole ethinicity "trailer trash of the Middle-East" is racist, unless clearly stated that it was meant to show another person's view, which it wasn't, in this case. Stop defending Chrizzle, he's perfectly capable of correcting a miscommunication if that's what it was.

I meant discuss the subject of this thread, not the subject of my replies to your posts about technicalities and colloquial meanings.:rolleyes:

[italic zero]

It's not racist because he's reflecting on a nationality rather than an ethnicity.

[coheneran]

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

[Chrizzle fo' Shizzle]

My statement was not racist because I'm not saying that all Arabs are trailer trash. I'm saying that the Palestinians, who happen to be Arabs, are :p

If they're such a fine people, why is it that they have been consistantly rejected by every neighboring country? Refugee camps don't count, because they're not meant to be permanent. They're the cause that every Middle Eastern leader will support, but will ultimately refuse to let them come into their own country permanently.

It's a nationalist cause for a group of people who aren't really a nation


But Hamas has signed a ten-year truce, a hudna. Besides, they don't even achieve whatever they want when they kill people. I think they've basically cut back on violence if not for the pragmatic political reasons then at least for the degree of practicality that suicide bombings entail

But they've still refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Not the best mindset for peace negotiations

[coheneran]

My statement was not racist because I'm not saying that all Arabs are trailer trash. I'm saying that the Palestinians, who happen to be Arabs, are.

That is racist.

If they're such a fine people, why is it that they have been consistantly rejected by every neighboring country? Refugee camps don't count, because they're not meant to be permanent. They're the cause that every Middle Eastern leader will support, but will ultimately refuse to let them come into their own country permanently.

I already gave you a theory about why:

"Countries in the area won't take Palestinian refugees because they don't want a Sabra and Shatilla on their hands!"

It's a nationalist cause for a group of people who aren't really a nation

The Indians didn't have a nation, they were part of the Empire, but Gandhi's nationalist struggles got them a nation. What's the difference between their situation and this one? They're both to do with imperialism and displacement.

But they've still refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Not the best mindset for peace negotiations

How many Israeli leaders refused to acknowledge the Palestinian right to a nation? What about the Prime Minister (her name completely escapes me, tip of the tongue) who refused to acknowledge that such a people as the Palestinians even exist?! The Palestinian leaderships have always been the same as the Israeli leaderships, except the Israeli leaderships have had a better position the whole time.

[lfantwister]

If they're such a fine people, why is it that they have been consistantly rejected by every neighboring country? Refugee camps don't count, because they're not meant to be permanent. They're the cause that every Middle Eastern leader will support, but will ultimately refuse to let them come into their own country permanently.


um what about Jordan, which has a Palestinian majority? And I'm pretty sure Egypt has taken in quite a ew. But theres those annoying constraints with regards to the influx the economy or the land can support


But they've still refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Not the best mindset for peace negotiations one step at a time buddy

How many Israeli leaders refused to acknowledge the Palestinian right to a nation? What about the Prime Minister (her name completely escapes me, tip of the tongue) who refused to acknowledge that such a people as the Palestinians even exist?! The Palestinian leaderships have always been the same as the Israeli leaderships, except the Israeli leaderships have had a better position the whole time.

you're thinking of golda meir. She said that the Palestinians don't exist; there is no palestinian problem. This was in the early 70s. Then terrorism started in 88 and they sure as hell know that theres a "Palestinian problem"

[StreetlightRock]

why is it that they have been consistantly rejected by every neighboring country?

The same reasons that many countries closed off their boders to the Jews of Hiter's Germany, unfortunately. Not because they were horrable, nasty people, but because there were too many of them.

[lfantwister]

The same reasons that many countries closed off their boders to the Jews of Hiter's Germany, unfortunately. Not because they were horrable, nasty people, but because there were too many of them. Which is of course why Israel was created in the first place...

Funny how history repeats itself like that

[PepsiMetal]

But you can understand why they refused right? I mean, put yourself in their shoes: You were born in Palestine, you're a Palestinian, there're some Brits here, and every year, more Jews. But you don't mind, they're not really doing anything much to you. So you keep on farming and shepherding, and then one day, a man comes on the radio and says that some committee far away has decided that the land you live on, and which your ancestors have been living on for literally uncountable generations, is suddenly not your country anymore. How could anyone accept that straight away!? I don't know what I would have done had I been a Palestinian then, but pack up my bags and leave is one thing I would rather die than do.

What the British and UN overall did was very selfish and cowardly, they should have help Palestinians establish their country there as they were the majority, not give the land to the people who supposedly lived there 6000 years ago or so.

Which is of course why Israel was created in the first place...

Funny how history repeats itself like that

Yea it would have been a good idea if the land was actually unoccupied.

[Britney Diva]

"Supposedly" lived there? 6000 years ago?

[PepsiMetal]

I was wrong, it's like 3,000 years or so. Doesn't matter though, it's really really long time.

[Britney Diva]

Are you... there... at all?

I'll start with an easy one: when was Jesus born?

[PepsiMetal]

I don't know. Nobody really knows that, but somewhere in the early 0-5 B.C. probably.

[Britney Diva]

And what religion was Jesus born into?

[PepsiMetal]

Judaism? Not that I really know or care about any religion much.

[Hababi]

Shall we take a look at some of the Israeli leaders' voices?

Ben Gurion, Founder of the Israeli State and first Prime Minister:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."


"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Yitzhak Shamir, Prime Minister and professional Bastard Murderer:

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."

As for Ehud Barak, when he was asked what he would have done had he been born a Palestinian, he answered "I would have joined a terrorist organization."

Didn't Hitler say things like "The Jews don't want peace! They want to control Germany and steal the working people's money! They hate us!" Kind of similar to what you are saying.


Ummm I call BS on those quotes. And using stupid quotes (which, even if they were true, would not represent the state of Israel as it always has been) to equate Israel with homicide bombers is ridiculous.

The Palestinians elected people who are openly pledged to the destruction of Israel. They elected leaders who glorify, fund and organize homicide bombings. These are facts. Please don't come back with dumb quotes.

[hafez]

http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties.asp

this was the most important thing posted in the thread in my opinion.look at the number of palestinians killed by israelis and then look at the number of israelis killed by palestinians and then look at the source.

[hafez]

Ummm I call BS on those quotes. And using stupid quotes (which, even if they were true, would not represent the state of Israel as it always has been) to equate Israel with homicide bombers is ridiculous.

The Palestinians elected people who are openly pledged to the destruction of Israel. They elected leaders who glorify, fund and organize homicide bombings. These are facts. Please don't come back with dumb quotes.

calling the quotes "dumb" or "stupid" doesn't validate your argument

and to the guy who said he's never seen jews supporting palestine or vice versa. i have never seen palestinians supporting israel but
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

[Hababi]

calling the quotes "dumb" or "stupid" doesn't validate your argument


No, calling them BS does. Spurious quotes have a way of popping up, whether it be Jane Fonda singing the praises of Ho Chi Men or some Jewish leader saying "grrr kill arabs!" That's why it's ridiculous to try to make a point using them.


this was the most important thing posted in the thread in my opinion.look at the number of palestinians killed by israelis and then look at the number of israelis killed by palestinians and then look at the source.


More Germans were killed during WW2 than Americans. Does that mean the Germans were good? No, it means the Americans executed the war better. And Israel has handled the conflict better. You win wars by killing your enemy. More Palestinians have died because more Palestinians engage in terrorism. Also because Palestinians kill other Palestinians then blame Jews.

Let's face it: Palestinians are actually better off today than they were before there was an Israel. Back then they were a third world cess pool, a bunch of vagabonds. Now they're vagabonds who are given free education, free electricity etc. by Israel. Without Israel, they'd be worse off. Israel is better off to the Palestinians than they are to themselves. The Palestinians, as a culture, are worthless. They don't produce great artists or scientists. They produce murderers. They produce people who think it noble to run up to a group of Jewish children at a mall and go kaboom. Their number one export is bloodshed, their number one industry: terrorism.

[Danish]

The Palestinians, as a culture, are worthless. They don't produce great artists or scientists. They produce murderers. They produce people who think it noble to run up to a group of Jewish children at a mall and go kaboom. Their number one export is bloodshed, their number one industry: terrorism.

I am so sick of your bullshit, Zero. You are so clearly a racist. Stop posting in threads on Israel. You don't have anything worthwhile to add to this thread or any other on the subject. You're a hypocrit and I have absolutely no respect for you.

Did I mention you're blatantly violating the forum rules?

[PepsiMetal]

More Germans were killed during WW2 than Americans. Does that mean the Germans were good? No, it means the Americans executed the war better. And Israel has handled the conflict better. You win wars by killing your enemy. More Palestinians have died because more Palestinians engage in terrorism. Also because Palestinians kill other Palestinians then blame Jews.

"Mamduh Muhammad Khalil 'Abeid
15 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 17.04.2006 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire from a tank. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while playing soccer with friends, 300 meters from his house."

Hadil Muhammad Rabi' Ghiben
7 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 10.04.2006 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire from a tank. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while in her house. 12 other member of the family were injured In the incident, most of them children.

Bilal Iyad Muhammad Abu al-'Anin
6 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 07.04.2006 in Rafah by gunfire from a helicopter during the course of an assasination. Additional information: Killed while was in the car with his father few meters away from a training center belonging to the Popular Resistance Committees.

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces 692

http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=13

Oh wow, Israel sure has a ****ing good war strategy here. :rolleyes:

Let's face it: Palestinians are actually better off today than they were before there was an Israel.

Wow, you must be crazy. How are they better off with some foreigners controlling the land they occupied? And yes, most of those Israeli's in charge right now are all foreigners. There is more violence against Jews in the middle east now than it has ever been. Why's that? Did people just start hating jews even though jews and muslims have lived together for thousands of years if not even more.

The Palestinians, as a culture, are worthless.

As Danish said, stop being a racist ****.

They don't produce great artists or scientists.

Considering most of medicine and mathematics was developed by Arabs...

They produce murderers. They produce people who think it noble to run up to a group of Jewish children at a mall and go kaboom. Their number one export is bloodshed, their number one industry: terrorism.

Maybe if you stop generalizing you could make a decent point, but right now all that you say is mostly BS.

[Hababi]

I am so sick of your bull****, Zero. You are so clearly a racist.


It's not racism to point out facts, and those are facts. Other Arab societies have put out many great scientists, mathmeticians and humanitarians. The Palestinians have not. FC was dead on when he labeled them the trailer trash of the middle east. They were vagabonds before Israel, and if it wasn't for Israel, they'd still be vagabonds living in squalor. Their culture is worthless.

[Danish]

"Mamduh Muhammad Khalil 'Abeid
15 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 17.04.2006 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire from a tank. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while playing soccer with friends, 300 meters from his house."

Hadil Muhammad Rabi' Ghiben
7 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 10.04.2006 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire from a tank. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while in her house. 12 other member of the family were injured In the incident, most of them children.

Bilal Iyad Muhammad Abu al-'Anin
6 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 07.04.2006 in Rafah by gunfire from a helicopter during the course of an assasination. Additional information: Killed while was in the car with his father few meters away from a training center belonging to the Popular Resistance Committees.

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces 692

http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=13

Oh wow, Israel sure has a ****ing good war strategy here. :rolleyes:



Wow, you must be crazy. How are they better off with some foreigners controlling the land they occupied? And yes, most of those Israeli's in charge right now are all foreigners. There is more violence against Jews in the middle east now than it has ever been. Why's that? Did people just start hating jews even though jews and muslims have lived together for thousands of years if not even more.

As Danish said, stop being a racist ****.

Considering most of medicine and mathematics was developed by Arabs...

Maybe if you stop generalizing you could make a decent point, but right now all that you say is mostly BS.

You'd be better off arguing about this with a brick wall than Zero.

[Hababi]

Considering most of medicine and mathematics was developed by Arabs...


I'm not stereotyping all Arabs, as my previous post elucidates. Arab cultures have brought many great things to the world and continue to do so, in spite of the repressive radical Islamic dictarships that invariably govern them.

But with the Palestinians, it's a different story. They contribute nothing to the world. In fact, the world would be better off if they'd go back to Jordan, blend in and everyone could forget the term "Palestinian" and all the bloodshed that they brought with them.


How are they better off with some foreigners controlling the land they occupied?


Umm, free electricity, free education, etc. If the Palestinians would stop blowing up Israeli school children, they'd realize how generous and humane Israel has been. Trust me, if I was in charge, then you'd really have something to whine about.

As for your second insipid remark, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion spread rampantly through the middle east long before Israel existed. Anti Jewish sentiment has been ubiqitous there for a long time, predating zionism. They hate the Jews for who they are, not anything that they do. Writing it up to anything less is distorting the facts and implicitly defending, or at least justifying it.


"Mamduh Muhammad Khalil 'Abeid
15 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 17.04.2006 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire from a tank. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while playing soccer with friends, 300 meters from his house."

Hadil Muhammad Rabi' Ghiben
7 year-old resident of Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, killed on 10.04.2006 in Beit Lahiya, North Gaza district, by gunfire from a tank. Did not participate in hostilities when killed. Additional information: Killed while in her house. 12 other member of the family were injured In the incident, most of them children.

Bilal Iyad Muhammad Abu al-'Anin
6 year-old resident of Rafah, killed on 07.04.2006 in Rafah by gunfire from a helicopter during the course of an assasination. Additional information: Killed while was in the car with his father few meters away from a training center belonging to the Popular Resistance Committees.

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces 692

http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=13

Oh wow, Israel sure has a ****ing good war strategy here.


In war, innocent civilians die. Deal with it. If Palestinians weren't blowing up school children, none of that would've happened. The Palestinians brought the war on themselves.

[Danish]

It's not racism to point out facts, and those are facts. Other Arab societies have put out many great scientists, mathmeticians and humanitarians. The Palestinians have not. FC was dead on when he labeled them the trailer trash of the middle east. They were vagabonds before Israel, and if it wasn't for Israel, they'd still be vagabonds living in squalor. Their culture is worthless.

NO, they aren't trailor trash. They're people, just like you and me. No culture is worthless.

And it's pretty ****ING hard to become skilled at science and math when you don't have enough ****ING money to EAT and you're constantly worried you're going to get ****ING SHOT on the walk to school!

[Hababi]

No culture is worthless.


Any culture that glorifies killing innocent civilians and prides itself on the intended annihilation of another people is.


And it's pretty ****ING hard to become skilled at science and math when you don't have enough ****ING money to EAT and you're constantly worried you're going to get ****ING SHOT on the walk to school!


Oh boo hoo. Historically, the Jewish people have put up with far worse and perservered. The Palestinians have it much better off than a lot of other people who are producing a lot more significant people.

Of course, it's kind of hard to grow up into a great scientist when your mother sends you off to blow up Jewish children. But whose fault is that? In part, the parents. But children must rise above that. No one is to blame for their actions except themselves. They choose to be murderers. They choose to snub Israel and all that Israel tries to do for them. Israel would LOVE to see a Palestinian cultural reformation, that is unless you're illogical enough to think that Israel likes seeing their children be blown up by crazies.

Then again you did defend Hugo Chavez's anti semitic "Jewish power structure" remarks.

[Danish]

Any culture that glorifies killing innocent civilians and prides itself on the intended annihilation of another people is.

Oh boo hoo. Historically, the Jewish people have put up with far worse and perservered. The Palestinians have it much better off than a lot of other people who are producing a lot more significant people.

Of course, it's kind of hard to grow up into a great scientist when your mother sends you off to blow up Jewish children.

Have you ever been to Palestine? No? Then what the **** do you know?

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are easily the most ignorant person in this forum. I really don't feel comfortable having a bigot and a racist that tosses about slurs toward Palestinians and homosexuals like it was confetti as a moderator of this forum.

This forum is for democratic discussion and mutual learning, not spreading ignorance and hatred.

Then again you did defend Hugo Chavez's anti semitic "Jewish power structure" remarks.

What? Are you calling me anti-semetic? Go **** yourself. A racist like you has no business making such outlandish claims.

[PepsiMetal]

As for your second insipid remark, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion spread rampantly through the middle east long before Israel existed. Anti Jewish sentiment has been ubiqitous there for a long time, predating zionism. They hate the Jews for who they are, not anything that they do. Writing it up to anything less is distorting the facts and implicitly defending, or at least justifying it.

Do you not realize that just about every time terrorists mention the terms Zionists instead of Jews? Just about every islamic governed country has jews that live fine.

The Palestinians brought the war on themselves.

By living on the land where they're a majority and having the land stolen from them by the foreigners? :confused: I wouldn't call that bringing a war on themselves.

But with the Palestinians, it's a different story. They contribute nothing to the world. In fact, the world would be better off if they'd go back to Jordan, blend in and everyone could forget the term "Palestinian" and all the bloodshed that they brought with them.

THEY LIVED IN THAT AREA BEFORE ISRAEL EXISTED. THEY DIDN'T MIGRATE TO THAT REGION AFTER ISRAEL WAS FORMED. So they didn't bring anything with them. They lived there longer than current zionists have.

Do you live in Israel?

[Hababi]

Have you ever been to Palestine? No? Then what the **** do you know?


I know that polls show that popular support for homicide bombings regularly ranges from 50 to 60 percent amongst the Palestinian population. I know that they just elected Hamas, and while you can talk all you want about Hamas' social programs and the such, their cornerstone is the stated goal of the elimination of the state of Israel and all Jews in it.


You have no idea what you're talking about. You are easily the most ignorant person in this forum. I really don't feel comfortable having a bigot and a racist that tosses about slurs toward Palestinians and homosexuals like it was confetti as a moderator of this forum.


:lol: You forget that I'm one of the most moderate people on the forum. It's just that when dealing with ultra left wingers like yourself, I look quite conservative.


This forum is for democratic discussion


:confused: What's undemocratic about the discussion? It sounds more like you're intolerant of views not in the same quadrant as your own. Hey, I don't care when you spout off your crazy Chomskey rhetoric (or when you don't reply to my questions about the feasability of the economic model you promulgate). That's democratic discussion.


What? Are you calling me anti-semetic? Go **** yourself. A racist like you has no business making such outlandish claims.


I'm saying that you defended Chavez for making textbook anti Jewish slurs. Make of it what you will.


Do you not realize that just about every time terrorists mention the terms Zionists instead of Jews? Just about every islamic governed country has jews that live fine.


zionist is just a codeword for Jew. They hate Jews. Ahmedinejad denies that the Holocaust happens, and the sentiment is shared by the other crazies in power. Once again, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion spread like wildfire in the middle east before Israel. Anti Jewish cartoons circulated before Israel. Anti Jewish sentiment did not spring forth with the creation of Israel, it just became tainted with blood.


THEY LIVED IN THAT AREA BEFORE ISRAEL EXISTED. THEY DIDN'T MIGRATE TO THAT REGION AFTER ISRAEL WAS FORMED. So they didn't bring anything with them. They lived there longer than current zionists have.


So? They lived there like a bunch of vagabonds, on land that was stolen from the Jews. They had no right to the land, and did nothing to warrent being on it. They stunk up the joint.

Oh, and no, I don't live in Israel. And to my knowledge, I don't have Jewish heritage.

[PepsiMetal]

zionist is just a codeword for Jew. They hate Jews.

That there alone means that you don't know what you're talking about.

From dictionary.com:

Zi·on·ism Audio pronunciation of "zionist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (z-nzm)
n.

A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

In other words, it's people who think Israel should exist. Not a synonym for jew.

EDIT: If it means jew = zionist, then how come so many jews are against zionism.
As posted on previous page:
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Once again, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion spread like wildfire in the middle east before Israel. Anti Jewish cartoons circulated before Israel. Anti Jewish sentiment did not spring forth with the creation of Israel, it just became tainted with blood.

Go find total jews killed before Israel's existence in Middle East (excluding WWII/holocaust of course) and find jews killed in Middle East since WWII. Compare the numbers, see it for yourself. Why is there more hatred of jews in today's world? Did people just magically all discover jews are these bad evil? No. It's because many jews support zionism which in reality, is stealing of the land.



So? They lived there like a bunch of vagabonds, on land that was stolen from the Jews. They had no right to the land, and did nothing to warrent being on it. They stunk up the joint.

How in the **** did they bring this war up on themselves? THEY LIVED IN THE AREA BEFORE ISRAEL. They didn't migrate. The correct wording is "The war came to them and was brought by the foreigners." How did they have no right to the land? They were a majority there, they did want to get approved by UN, but UN didn't want to give them their land, instead they wanted to invite some millions of jews from all over the world to share their land without their permission.

Oh, and no, I don't live in Israel. And to my knowledge, I don't have Jewish heritage.

So in other words, all your hatred of palestinian people, land, and their culture is BS brought to you by your news agencies? Stop being so ignorant. Just because you see a palestinian terrorist kill 10 people doesn't mean all of their culture and people are based on it.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/palpoptotal.html

How come all those palestinians living in so many of those countries aren't blowing up my neighbor's house who is a jew? Maybe, just maybe it's because he didn't steal their land?

[Danish]

I know that polls show that popular support for homicide bombings regularly ranges from 50 to 60 percent amongst the Palestinian population. I know that they just elected Hamas, and while you can talk all you want about Hamas' social programs and the such, their cornerstone is the stated goal of the elimination of the state of Israel and all Jews in it.

Wow, you really have a commanding knowledge of Palestinian culture... :rolleyes:

:lol: You forget that I'm one of the most moderate people on the forum. It's just that when dealing with ultra left wingers like yourself, I look quite conservative.

I didn't say you were an extremist. I said you were an ignorant racist.

:confused: What's undemocratic about the discussion? It sounds more like you're intolerant of views not in the same quadrant as your own. Hey, I don't care when you spout off your crazy Chomskey rhetoric (or when you don't reply to my questions about the feasability of the economic model you promulgate). That's democratic discussion.

Yes, racism and intolerance are the hallmarks of any democratic discourse...

If I don't reply specifically to you, it's because I don't like you.

I'm saying that you defended Chavez for making textbook anti Jewish slurs. Make of it what you will.

All I said in that discussion was that you took the comment way out of context.

Every time you make intolerant or racist comments, I'm going to report you.

[Hababi]

In other words, it's people who think Israel should exist. Not a synonym for jew.


You don't seem to understand what I'm saying: they use "zionist" when they really mean "Jew." Just like some on the far right use "illegal alien" when they really mean "Mexican." "I hate zionists" is almost exclusively a code term for "I hate Jews," just as "I hate illegals" is almost exclusively a code term for "I hate Mexicans."


Go find total jews killed before Israel's existence in Middle East (excluding WWII/holocaust of course) and find jews killed in Middle East since WWII. Compare the numbers, see it for yourself. Why is there more hatred of jews in today's world? Did people just magically all discover jews are these bad evil?


There isn't more hatred; there's more bloodshed. The hatred has materalized itself in guns, bombs, and Palestinian crazies.


It's because many jews support zionism which in reality, is stealing of the land.


From the nation of Palestine! Err, there was no nation of Palestine. They had no claim to the land. They were vagabonds, living in squalor and doing nothing with the land. And they still would be today, too. That land isn't theirs.


THEY LIVED IN THE AREA BEFORE ISRAEL.


And the Jews lived there before them.


How come all those palestinians living in so many of those countries aren't blowing up my neighbor's house who is a jew? Maybe, just maybe it's because he didn't steal their land?


Maybe it's because he has disassociated himself from the Palestinian culture?


If I don't reply specifically to you, it's because I don't like you.


Here I thought it was just because you had no answer, just like with nowhe's point about Chomskey's defense of the Khmar Rouge.


I didn't say you were an extremist. I said you were an ignorant racist.


That's just a cheap way of trying to eliminate discourse.


All I said in that discussion was that you took the comment way out of context.


As I said, you defended CHavez's textbook anti Jewish slurs.


Every time you make intolerant or racist comments, I'm going to report you.


Report me to whom?? Myself?? :p

[Danish]

Here I thought it was just because you had no answer, just like with nowhe's point about Chomskey's defense of the Khmar Rouge.

Like I told him, I'm not going to defend a third-party in a mud-slinging contest.

That's just a cheap way of trying to eliminate discourse.

So is generalizing all Palestinians as "trailer trash" and calling their culture "worthless."

As I said, you defended CHavez's textbook anti Jewish slurs.

Asking for context and providing a defense are completely different, genius.

Report me to whom?? Myself?? :p

No, Egotistical, you aren't the only mod on MX. Hate to pop that giant head of yours...

[Hababi]

Like I told him, I'm not going to defend a third-party in a mud-slinging contest.


It's not "third party mudslinging." It's obvserving Chomskey's direct quotes. The man is a long time defender of Marxist dictatorships and genocide.


So is generalizing all Palestinians as "trailer trash" and calling their culture "worthless."


Saying their culture is worthless (which it is) is no different than saying that America's culture is "violent", something which some people (errantly) believe and which would be a perfectly fine discussion topic.


Asking for context and providing a defense are completely different, genius.


The context was clear. Just like every other radical leftist, Chavez is rabidly anti Jewish.


No, Egotistical, you aren't the only mod on MX. Hate to pop that giant head of yours...


You really should lay off the ad hominem's.

[Danish]

Saying their culture is worthless (which it is) is no different than saying that America's culture is "violent", something which some people (errantly) believe and which would be a perfectly fine discussion topic.

We've already established that you know jack **** about Palestinian culture.

And denouncing an entire culture as "worthless," especially when you know absolutely nothing about it, is completely different than observing that American culture has violent elements to it.

The context was clear. Just like every other radical leftist, Chavez is rabidly anti Jewish.

Right. Like me.

You really should lay off the ad hominem's.

You should really lay off the racist horseshit.

[PepsiMetal]

I know that polls show that popular support for homicide bombings regularly ranges from 50 to 60 percent amongst the Palestinian population. I know that they just elected Hamas, and while you can talk all you want about Hamas' social programs and the such, their cornerstone is the stated goal of the elimination of the state of Israel and all Jews in it.

WRONG. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

He also "didn't rule out the possibility of having Jews, Muslims and Christians living under the sovereignty of an Islamic state, adding that the Palestinians never hated the Jews and that only the Israeli occupation was their enemy"

Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in force) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamist state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

Grrr, they always say destruction of ISRAEL not jews.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying: they use "zionist" when they really mean "Jew." Just like some on the far right use "illegal alien" when they really mean "Mexican." "I hate zionists" is almost exclusively a code term for "I hate Jews," just as "I hate illegals" is almost exclusively a code term for "I hate Mexicans."

If almadinejad meant destruction of jews whenever he said israel or zionism, then why isn't he killing those thousands of jews in Iran? :confused: There are about 20,000 jews in turkey too which is mostly islamic. How can muslims and jews live together when by your definition that's not possible? :confused:

There isn't more hatred; there's more bloodshed. The hatred has materalized itself in guns, bombs, and Palestinian crazies.

Well if there isn't hatred, there wouldn't be bloodshed. Why would a palestinian blow himself up to kill Israelis if he doesn't hate them?

From the nation of Palestine! Err, there was no nation of Palestine. They had no claim to the land. They were vagabonds, living in squalor and doing nothing with the land. And they still would be today, too. That land isn't theirs.

They wanted UN to approve their land after WWII, not invite millions of jewish foreigners from all parts of the world to take their land. BTW There are christian palestinians also, and have lived there without any problems until Israel was formed. There was no nation of palestine because before World Wars it was part of Ottoman just as about every other middle east country too.

And the Jews lived there before them.

Jews =/= Zionists.

Like I quoted the words of a Hamas leader, they have no problems with jews living on their land with palestinian law. But that doesn't mean they have to have their own country there.

Indians lived in USA before Europeans came over here, should Indians form their own country here now also?

Should aboriginees form their own country in Australia now?

Should Maorii form their own country in New Zealand now?

Maybe it's because he has disassociated himself from the Palestinian culture?

Or it could be because he has no reason to hate a jewish person who hasn't done anything wrong? :confused: Do you think the reason Palestinians hate Zionists is because they're jewish? Cause it's probably not.

[Hababi]

We've already established that you know jack **** about Palestinian culture.

And denouncing an entire culture as "worthless," especially when you know absolutely nothing about it, is completely different than observing that American culture has violent elements to it.


Before you said that it's racist to make any blanket assesement about a culture. Now you reverse yourself and defend doing so, so long as it's about America. It's a textbook example of white liberal guilt and hate America first rationale. It is not racist to discuss cultures or to make assesements of them.

I do know about the Palestinian culture, and apparently more than you, unless you remain intentionally blithe to their worship of homicide bombings. Do you?


Right. Like me.


Stalin
Allende
Sandinista's
Chavez
Mugabe

The list goes on. All radical leftists who have come to power have been viciously anti Jewish.


Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in force) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamist state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

Grrr, they always say destruction of ISRAEL not jews.


And how do you accomplish that? Well, for those dirtbags, you blow up Jewish civilians. Destruction of Israel through the murder of the Jews.


If almadinejad meant destruction of jews whenever he said israel or zionism, then why isn't he killing those thousands of jews in Iran?

Just wait. You do realize the guy openly flaunts his Holocaust denial?


There are about 20,000 jews in turkey too which is mostly islamic. How can muslims and jews live together when by your definition that's not possible?


I never said they can't live together. I said anti Jewish sentiment predates Israel. And that is fact.


Indians lived in USA before Europeans came over here, should Indians form their own country here now also?

Should aboriginees form their own country in Australia now?

Should Maorii form their own country in New Zealand now?


If other people came in, crapped on their land and did nothing with it, the yes. But that wasn't the case. Guess what? America, NZ, Australia were established as nations. Palestine wasn't. It was a third world crap hole for castoffs to waste their lives. And that's what it'd still be if it wasn't for Israel.


Or it could be because he has no reason to hate a jewish person who hasn't done nothing wrong? Do you think the reason Palestinians hate Zionists is because they're jewish? Cause it's probably not.


So why did the Protocols of the Elders of Zion spread rampantly through the Middle East long before Israel existed?

[Danish]

Before you said that it's racist to make any blanket assesement about a culture. Now you reverse yourself and defend doing so, so long as it's about America. It's a textbook example of white liberal guilt and hate America first rationale. It is not racist to discuss cultures or to make assesements of them.

I said it was racist to make a blanket statement about a culture? Quote me then.

I wasn't making a blanket statement about American culture. I said "it has violent elements." You know what comes after that? An analysis of what I mean and, hopefully, a discussion about the nature of our culture. Besides, calling a culture "worthless" is blatantly ethnocentric and saying a culture has violent elements clearly isn't (it's not a judgement of value).

I do know about the Palestinian culture, and apparently more than you, unless you remain intentionally blithe to their worship of homicide bombings. Do you?

I know Palestinian culture is about more than one thing (seeing as all cultures have various elements).

I'm not an expert on Palestinian culture but, then again, I didn't call it worthless.

Stalin
Allende
Sandinista's
Chavez
Mugabe

The list goes on. All radical leftists who have come to power have been viciously anti Jewish.

Yep. You're right. We're all the same.

(Marx was a Jew and Jewish politics have a long history of radical leftism)

ps: I'm not going to respond to your next post. It doesn't mean anything other than I have homework to do and sleep to catch.

[PepsiMetal]

And how do you accomplish that? Well, for those dirtbags, you blow up Jewish civilians. Destruction of Israel through the murder of the Jews.

Anyone that supports the Zionist State is the better wording. I don't agree that their suicide bombings are humane, but compare Israel's technology (One of the best) to Palestinian (One of the worst), if they fougth a military based war, Palestine would have no chance. And USA didn't give Palestine billions of dollars to make up their military, as it has given Israel.

Just wait. You do realize the guy openly flaunts his Holocaust denial?

Holocaust is history.

I don't care what he thinks of anything, and I couldn't care less who he likes or hates, but majority of Terrorist oragizations hate Zionists not Jews. I don't personally know him, so we honestly can't know whether he actually hates jews or zionists. I'm pretty sure it's zionists just like most middle-easterners.

I never said they can't live together. I said anti Jewish sentiment predates Israel. And that is fact.

Maybe in little amounts like every other race and religion has to go through. That has always happened everywhere, and will always happen everywhere.

If other people came in, crapped on their land and did nothing with it, the yes. But that wasn't the case. Guess what? America, NZ, Australia were established as nations. Palestine wasn't. It was a third world crap hole for castoffs to waste their lives. And that's what it'd still be if it wasn't for Israel.

Go research Ottoman Empire, and then come back and tell me it wasn't an established nation/country/empire compared to the rest of the world at that time. Palestine was part of Ottoman Empire.

So why did the Protocols of the Elders of Zion spread rampantly through the Middle East long before Israel existed?

Well do Zionists not dominate Middle East now? :confused:

[StreetlightRock]

Stalin
Allende
Sandinista's
Chavez
Mugabe

You forgot that Hitler dude.

[coheneran]

Ummm I call BS on those quotes. And using stupid quotes (which, even if they were true, would not represent the state of Israel as it always has been) to equate Israel with homicide bombers is ridiculous.

The Palestinians elected people who are openly pledged to the destruction of Israel. They elected leaders who glorify, fund and organize homicide bombings. These are facts. Please don't come back with dumb quotes.

Those quotes are famous, man, they're everywhere on the internet, in newspaper articles, in documentaries. You can't choose to ignore Israeli brutality and blame a Palestinian radical and violent minority on the problems.

The Palestinians elected a government that will fix social services, emergency services, education, corruption. I already explained my theory on this. Your accusations make the assumption that all Palestinians want to kill Israelis. This is (racist) bullcrap. I know dozens of Palestinians, I've protested along them, been in class with them, danced with them, I live with them, I've got Palestinian friends, and buddy, there hasn't been one time that I caught one of them trying to stick a knife in my back or pour poison in my tea.:rolleyes:

[coheneran]

More Germans were killed during WW2 than Americans. Does that mean the Germans were good? No, it means the Americans executed the war better. And Israel has handled the conflict better. You win wars by killing your enemy. More Palestinians have died because more Palestinians engage in terrorism. Also because Palestinians kill other Palestinians then blame Jews.

Let's face it: Palestinians are actually better off today than they were before there was an Israel. Back then they were a third world cess pool, a bunch of vagabonds. Now they're vagabonds who are given free education, free electricity etc. by Israel. Without Israel, they'd be worse off. Israel is better off to the Palestinians than they are to themselves. The Palestinians, as a culture, are worthless. They don't produce great artists or scientists. They produce murderers. They produce people who think it noble to run up to a group of Jewish children at a mall and go kaboom. Their number one export is bloodshed, their number one industry: terrorism.

Source everything that's bolded. Oh wait, you can't, because it's BS (there, I beat your post!).

But seriously, you have no clue what you're talking about. Right now I have a Palestinian man living with me who is studying advanced mathematics in London University, he's on a scholarship from the Ford Foundation, he's a peace activist, and more than that, he's a pretty damn nice guy, so your generalisations or wrong.

Palestinians are not better off. There's more Palestinians living abroad because they were forced out of the country by Israel than there are living withing Israel and Palestine.

As for Palestinian culture, I take it you've never heard of Edward Sa'id, famous Palestinian literary theorist, critic, peace activist and occasional classical musician? Ismael Al-Farouqi? Mahmoud Darwish? Ghassan Kanafani? How about a form of dancing called Dabke? It's one of the most complicated dancing styles to come out of the Middle-East. The fact is you don't know any Palestinian culture because you've never taken the time to study Palestine.

If everyone only talked about what they know, this would be a very quiet world.

[coheneran]

Umm, free electricity, free education, etc. If the Palestinians would stop blowing up Israeli school children, they'd realize how generous and humane Israel has been. Trust me, if I was in charge, then you'd really have something to whine about.

Are you kidding?! There're villages and towns to which Israel controls the water supply, and they get flowing water once a week! I've been to one, it was called Bil'ein, and lucky for me we came on the day that they did have flowing water, so I could wash the teargas out of my eyes and throat (that the Israeli army shot at me).

As for your second insipid remark, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion spread rampantly through the middle east long before Israel existed. Anti Jewish sentiment has been ubiqitous there for a long time, predating zionism. They hate the Jews for who they are, not anything that they do. Writing it up to anything less is distorting the facts and implicitly defending, or at least justifying it.

There's racism towards Jews in every country they inhabit you dumbarse, and Palestine is no different. Of course, just like there's a racist minority, there's an indifferent majority, who don't care what they were born as, but care for who they are. I met a man who's father was a respected rabbi in Hebron way before Zionism came to Israel, back in the late 1800s. He was a Jewish Arab, of course, and he gave advice to everyone, doesn't matter if they were Jewish or Muslims. On the day Ben Gurion (who, incidentally, once said "One Ashkenaz Jew [White Euro Jew] is worth ten Arabic Jews.") declared independence, this rabbi was sitting drinking tea with many of his Palestinian friends in a shisha cafe in Hebron. He was anti-Zionist.

[Danish]

Mmmmm shisha...

[coheneran]

Mmmmm shisha...

In Israel and Palestine, it's called a nargilla. Pronounce the G properly, not like a J.

[hafez]

Back then they were a third world cess pool, a bunch of vagabonds. Now they're vagabonds who are given free education, free electricity etc. by Israel. Without Israel, they'd be worse off. Israel is better off to the Palestinians than they are to themselves. The Palestinians, as a culture, are worthless. They don't produce great artists or scientists. They produce murderers. They produce people who think it noble to run up to a group of Jewish children at a mall and go kaboom. Their number one export is bloodshed, their number one industry: terrorism.

isn't that exactly the kind of opinion that made the situation what it is today? if you're giving a population a free education, then why would they be unable to produce great mathematicians, scientists,etc? you're making the same argument that neo-nazis make about the hispanic and black population of the US. if you were to state facts with sources it'd be fine but so far all i've seen from you is bigoted nonsense. it's pretty sad to see you ignore the sources that people post and go on about how all palestinians want to blow themselves up in a jewish elementary school.

[coheneran]

isn't that exactly the kind of opinion that made the situation what it is today? if you're giving a population a free education, then why would they be unable to produce great mathematicians, scientists,etc? you're making the same argument that neo-nazis make about the hispanic and black population of the US. if you were to state facts with sources it'd be fine but so far all i've seen from you is bigoted nonsense. it's pretty sad to see you ignore the sources that people post and go on about how all palestinians want to blow themselves up in a jewish elementary school.

You killed my thread!:mad:

[what]

um I don't see why Israel shouldve became a country with its own land at all

there was no israel, and just because of the nazis the world decided to close its eyes on the obvious facts

that way there shouldve been a gypsyland or something, but I guess the gypsies werent aggresive and mobile enough to make their own country

[italic zero]

umm.. aren't you forgetting that they're gypsies?

[what]

so.

[coheneran]

umm.. aren't you forgetting that they're gypsies?

You do realise that the early Zionist claim to a Jewish homeland was based on a Literalist take of the Torah. But if you read into the Torah like you're supposed to (ie. consider it as an extended metaphor) you'll see that in fact the Jewish people are quite nomadic, but not in such small groups as gypsies or Bedouins. Historically, the Jews migrated en masse, not in little groups that slowly spread over a continent (like the gypsies). It's about the journey, not about the destination. Like the Ancient Greek philosophers' never-ending Quest for Truth, the Jewish search for a homeland is a never-ending journey of enlightenment, as a mass community. The current social and economic trends are in fact killing the Jewish community, stealing its character and sense of identity.

Lol, I don't know where that last line came from. I'd never looked at it like that until now. Spontaneous thought.

[Hababi]

Are you kidding?! There're villages and towns to which Israel controls the water supply, and they get flowing water once a week! I've been to one, it was called Bil'ein, and lucky for me we came on the day that they did have flowing water, so I could wash the teargas out of my eyes and throat (that the Israeli army shot at me).


I'm sorry but I just don't believe you.

And as to the service, of course it sometimes has to be interrupted when Israel is trying to root out criminals. Once again, keep in mind: they are fighting a war, a war for their very own existence. They're giving water and electricity to the very people they're at war with. All I'd give them is a first class (actually coach) ticket back to Jordan.


Palestinians are not better off. There's more Palestinians living abroad because they were forced out of the country by Israel than there are living withing Israel and Palestine.


That means they're terrorists or terrorist enablers.


As for Palestinian culture, I take it you've never heard of Edward Sa'id, famous Palestinian literary theorist, critic, peace activist and occasional classical musician? Ismael Al-Farouqi? Mahmoud Darwish? Ghassan Kanafani? How about a form of dancing called Dabke? It's one of the most complicated dancing styles to come out of the Middle-East. The fact is you don't know any Palestinian culture because you've never taken the time to study Palestine.

Too bad those isolated cases of people rejecting the mainstream Palestinian culture and becoming something are far outweighed by this:
http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/9-1c.jpg

THAT is the mainstream palestinian culture. Masks and gunmen, terrorism and murder.

[coheneran]

And as to the service, of course it sometimes has to be interrupted when Israel is trying to root out criminals. Once again, keep in mind: they are fighting a war, a war for their very own existence. They're giving water and electricity to the very people they're at war with. All I'd give them is a first class (actually coach) ticket back to Jordan.

I don't think Israel is in any danger of losing their "war". A war is when two armies fight, not when a top-of-the-line mechanized army fights a bunch of extremists with ancient Soviet machine guns and a bag of fertilizer, which is the reality. I don't know what they call it in the loco ignorance you call a world, but in my world they call it oppression and militant resistance. The militant resistance is bad, but the oppression is just as bad, if not worse.



That means they're terrorists or terrorist enablers.

Yeah, all refugees are terrorists. How un-xenophobic of you.

Too bad those isolated cases of people rejecting the mainstream Palestinian culture and becoming something are far outweighed by this:
http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/9-1c.jpg

THAT'S your argument? A kid holding a gun? Oh noes, run away, there's a picture of a kid holding a gun, and it comes from a website called International Jewish Agenda! I wonder what's on their agenda. Surely not Zionism!

THAT is the mainstream palestinian culture. Masks and gunmen, terrorism and murder.

Really? Prove it. If Palestinian culture is about guns, terrorism, masks and murder, then it stands to reason there'd be a multitude of films, books, poems, plays, songs, etc. about this culture. The only Palestinian-made movies I've ever seen are about the nastiness and pettiness of the suicide bombers, and how young men are exploited by power-hungry leaders.



All in all, this post was typical of a racist bigot. If I tell a fact you don't like, it's plain "I don't believe you", but you bring up the same points over and over again, even if they have already been logically countered and defeated.

[Hababi]

Yeah, all refugees are terrorists. How un-xenophobic of you.


Anyone who Israel forces out is.

How about this: Israel constructs a complete security wall around the length of their country and completely stops ALL relations with the Palestinian region? No more water or electricity, nothing. The Palestinians are left to themselves and no Palestinian is allowed in Israel.


I don't think Israel is in any danger of losing their "war". A war is when two armies fight, not when a top-of-the-line mechanized army fights a bunch of extremists with ancient Soviet machine guns and a bag of fertilizer, which is the reality.


Umm it's called a guerilla war and in those types of situations they're more effective. Wars aren't always won by those with the biggest guns (see: Vietnam).


The militant resistance is bad, but the oppression is just as bad, if not worse.


Resistance? That "resistance" is blowing up Israeli children. Call it for what it is. And if you equate Israel going after terrorists with Palestinians blowing up school children, then you are absolutely insane.


THAT'S your argument? A kid holding a gun? Oh noes, run away, there's a picture of a kid holding a gun, and it comes from a website called International Jewish Agenda! I wonder what's on their agenda. Surely not Zionism!


Well it's from a google image search so I have no clue what the site itself is :p

Anyway, that's the mainstream culture. That's their heroes, that's their elected officials, that's their leaders. That's it.

[coheneran]

Anyone who Israel forces out is.

So whatever Israel does is right and shouldn't be second-guessed?

How about this: Israel constructs a complete security wall around the length of their country and completely stops ALL relations with the Palestinian region? No more water or electricity, nothing. The Palestinians are left to themselves and no Palestinian is allowed in Israel.

That is the current plan, unfortunately.

Umm it's called a guerilla war and in those types of situations they're more effective. Wars aren't always won by those with the biggest guns (see: Vietnam).

Fair point.

Resistance? That "resistance" is blowing up Israeli children. Call it for what it is. And if you equate Israel going after terrorists with Palestinians blowing up school children, then you are absolutely insane.

Remind me again the difference between an Israeli helicopter blowing up a Palestinian school and a Palestinian suicide bomber blowing up a school? And none of that crap about anti-Jewish education, because if you can't source it you can't use it, and you obviously can't source it.

Well it's from a google image search so I have no clue what the site itself is :p

You googled something like "armed Palestinian child" and then you claim that's the extent of Palestinian culture? Why don't I google "redneck shooting out of pick-up truck" and then claim that's the extent of American culture?

Anyway, that's the mainstream culture. That's their heroes, that's their elected officials, that's their leaders. That's it.

If you think that's so, then you don't know anything about Palestinian culture, excepting what you see on CNN.

[what]

What's funny is that even though the history of that land has been researched, the main point is the Bible, so it would be really illogical for all atheists to support Israel.

[PepsiMetal]

How about this: Israel constructs a complete security wall around the length of their country and completely stops ALL relations with the Palestinian region?

For billionth time, how is it Zionists' country? Because jews were killed by a german so they decided let's place all of them in the middle east? :rolleyes:

Palestinians were the majority of occupants at the time. Really, Israel itself is the biggest problem in that whole area. If jews lived in a palestine, like they have for years and years, there wouldn't be nowhere as many problems as there are now.

You're a generalizing racist anyways. It's like if I said All jews are making massacres cause Israeli's have massacred palestinians many times. In other words, stop generalizing. There are good and bad people on both sides, and most zionists could live fine without terrorist attacks if it was palestine. Again, see other islamic countries. How many times did you see a terrorist attack against a jewish person in Iran or Turkey? Now compare that to Palestine/Israel. Yup.

[Hababi]

For billionth time, how is it Zionists' country? Because jews were killed by a german so they decided let's place all of them in the middle east?


It wasn't the Palestinians' country, because there was no Palestinian country. There was a wasteland gypsy land, but that was it. No established country. The Palestinians don't have the original ownership land; that belongs to the Israelis. The Israeli's did more with that land within their first ten years of having it than the Palestinians did in all their time having it.

You do realize that Israel is the only middle eastern democracy, right? That Israel is by far the highest rated middle eastern country on the HDI chart? So why is it that you want to destroy a flourishing democracy and hand over the land to radical Muslims?


How many times did you see a terrorist attack against a jewish person in Iran or Turkey?

How about that Turkish movie about the evil Jewish doctor harvesting Muslim organs at Abu Ghirab? What was it, Triumph of the Iman?


So whatever Israel does is right and shouldn't be second-guessed?


First part, most all the time.


That is the current plan, unfortunately.


No it's not. Israel stopped the security wall far short of what it should have been; they've been giving away land like it's hot potatoe, and they're bending over backwards to accomodate the radical Muslim regime intent on destroying them.


Remind me again the difference between an Israeli helicopter blowing up a Palestinian school and a Palestinian suicide bomber blowing up a school?


Well that's pretty easy:
1) The first one doesn't happen.
2) If the first one happends, it's a school for jihad.
3) If the first one happens, Israel orchestrates it to minimize civilian casualties.
4) When the second one happens, the Palestinians scheme to maximize civilian casualties.


You googled something like "armed Palestinian child" and then you claim that's the extent of Palestinian culture? Why don't I google "redneck shooting out of pick-up truck" and then claim that's the extent of American culture?


Actually I just googled 'Palestinian'.

As for your last point:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2072851.stm


The June 2002 poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Centre showed that a large majority - nearly seven out of 10 people - supported the suicide operations, about 60% of those expressing their "strong" support.

So, 6 in 10 Palestinians are supporting the murder of Israeli school children. Those 6 out of 10 should either be shipped to Jordan or shot.

[PepsiMetal]

It wasn't the Palestinians' country, because there was no Palestinian country. There was a wasteland gypsy land, but that was it. No established country. The Palestinians don't have the original ownership land; that belongs to the Israelis. The Israeli's did more with that land within their first ten years of having it than the Palestinians did in all their time having it.

There is no such thing as original ownership. Do Indians/hispanics have original ownership of USA? No, they have no ownership in US land today. It wasn't a wasteland as you said. You obviously aren't knowledgable in this area. Palestine was under control of Ottoman Empire, which was later British Mandate of Palestine until they decided to invite millions of jews from all over the world to share the Palestinian occupied territory.

It has nothing to do with who did more to the land. Yes Israel is now more technologically advanced than Palestine would have been, but that's because it basically has unlimited budget.

You do realize that Israel is the only middle eastern democracy, right? That Israel is by far the highest rated middle eastern country on the HDI chart? So why is it that you want to destroy a flourishing democracy and hand over the land to radical Muslims?

It has nothing to do with democracy. Get a freaking grip.

Saudi arabia is US's biggest allie in middle east except Israel, yet it is farther from democracy than Iran. It's about money. It's not like US gives two shits whether Israel (or any other country for that matter) is ruled by the majority vote or by a dictator.

I want to be fair. It has nothing to do with politics. I have nothing against Jewish people, and religions for me are all the same. But when majority of people are Palestinians, and because jews were mistreated in WWII, UN decides to give them Palestinian Occupied land? I mean, if Hitler was a palestinian then fine, ok, it's a payback, but Palestinians had nothing to do with Holocaust. Why do palestinians have to share their own occupied land because some european lunatic felt the need to kill millions of people?

How about that Turkish movie about the evil Jewish doctor harvesting Muslim organs at Abu Ghirab? What was it, Triumph of the Iman?

I don't know or care. I'm talking about reality. Now tell me, did you compare number of attacks on jewish people in Iran/Turkey to number of attacks on jewish people in Palestine/Israel? Hamas, who the west considers a terrorist organization, themselves said they have no problems with jewish people living under a palestine rule. Just as Almadinejad hasn't said anything bad to the jews living in his country.


So , 6 in 10 Palestinians are supporting the murder of Israeli school children. Those 6 out of 10 should either be shipped to Jordan