Hand-hammering And Re-creating Cymbals

[Johan VDS]

Already mentioned this in the "Cymbal finder thread" but don't want to hijack that one any further...

I am a Belgian drummer who also hammers cymbals. I once started doing this because (to me) no modern factory made cymbal offers the "old" Turkish K kind of darkness and complexity anymore.

I hammer pro- and also some non-pro-level factory cymbals into much richer sounding cymbals.
Besides creating light complex jazz cymbals, I also hammer heavier rock-oriented cymbals to dramatically enrich the sound.

The cymbals I've hammered can be seen and heard on my webindex page (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/). Mind you, I have hammered most of these cymbals to suit my personal taste (dark and trashy) but I can also brighten the sound of cymbals with a different hammering method.

Some "before and after modification" files can be heard HERE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/).

Some student cymbals I hammered into professional cymbals can be listened to HERE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/).


Here's a Paiste Signature Power ride, hammered to sound like the old 60's Tony Williams ride, but with a bit more "meat". (Here's a SOUNDFILE (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/22_Complex_Dark_Ride_2970_gr_(from_Paiste_Signatur e).mp3))
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/22_Complex_Dark_Ride_2970_gr_(from_Paiste_Signatur e).jpg



This was a Zildjian ZBT 20" ride, now a very complex thin professional jazz ride (here's a "before and after" (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/ZBT_Zildjian_conversion_to_professional_light_jazz _cymbals/Zildjian_ZBT_20_ride_before_and_after_modification .mp3) clip)
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/ZBT_Zildjian_conversion_to_professional_light_jazz _cymbals/20_Ride_(From_Zildjian_ZBT).jpg



Here's a "before and after" pic of a cheap 16" Headliner crash cymbal, now a professional dark thin crash ( HERE'S (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Headliner_16_crash_before_and_after_modification.m p3) the before and after soundfile):
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Headliner_16_crash_before_and_after_modification.j pg

[Drum Monkey]

Hello. I was reading your thread in another forum cough*drummerworld*cough and I'd like to say I'm really impressed! I've decided to start something like this on my Pearl cymbals, because well, they're Pearls!

I'm not looking to improve the sound that much as I only have them on my second kit, but I'd like to know what I can use to hammer them. I don't have a (piece of wood, I forget the name) to help me hammer the cymbals, is there any other way of doing it? Also, what did you use to get the logos off so clean?

Thanks and very nice work there!

-DM

[weed_makes_me_faster]

yeah yesterday i checked out drummerworld too. i'm more than impressed, especially the headliners - that's a miracle what you have done.. cheers bro.. ur my idol :lol:

[Corkofski]

bit dark for my taste, tbh i preferred the headliner and zbt before. but the difference is staggering. keep it up!

[stevoibanez]

Nice to see you here Johan, you should post some of those "perforation trashes", those look and sound incredible.

[Johan VDS]

I'd like to know what I can use to hammer them. I don't have a (piece of wood, I forget the name) to help me hammer the cymbals, is there any other way of doing it?You need a steel anvil (or a heavy piece of steel grinded to a slight curve)Also, what did you use to get the logos off so clean?After the hammering, I lathed the cymbals. Not to get the logo's off but to bring the cymbals to the desired thickness and taper.

[milkmit]

I've always been curious about something...so if it's not too much of a trade secret of sorts, can you give me a real rough explanation of how certain hammering methods give cymbals a specific sound while others give them another?

for instance, what sort of difference does a cymbal have that has longer vertical hammerings (?), like the first one you posted, compared to one whose hammerings are more uniform in width/length? what about the ringed ridges (seen well on the zbt)? how does hammering the inside of the cymbal one way and the outside edges another change the sound?

thanks! I'm usually pretty good at figuring these things out logically based on the physical qualities and such....but the only really obvious thing to me would be the difference in sound between traditional and brilliant finishes.

[Drum Monkey]

You need a steel anvil (or a heavy piece of steel grinded to a slight curve)After the hammering, I lathed the cymbals. Not to get the logo's off but to bring the cymbals to the desired thickness and taper.
Yes, anvil was what I was trying to describe... I thought they were made of wood... I have to try some methods to get the logos off, because I don't have the required equipment to lathe. Thank you for your response :chug:

-DM

[pitchfork]

I'm going to hammer some stock cymbals soon I reckon, my dad nicked a load of tools and would you believe it an anvil they were chucking out from his work.
Metalwork compaies, pfft.

[TTTSNB]

Yeah, impressive work there. I'd really be interested in doing that with some of my cymbals.

[Zildjian]

Thats really sweet...How much time does it take to do that??

[Johan VDS]

can you give me a real rough explanation of how certain hammering methods give cymbals a specific sound while others give them another?Applying the same hammering technique to various cymbals will give totally different results. It took me a lot of experimentation to acquire an "instinct" how to hammer a cymbal towards a certain pre-conceived sound. Now I know pretty much what to do upon just grabbing a cymbal. I'm afraid there's no way around a long time of trial and error before you can get the feel for it. Even if I would show you how to hammer a cymbal step by step it wouldn't clarify much. Each blow is the result of feeling and hearing how the sound changes. Another cymbal simply needs a different approach.

for instance, what sort of difference does a cymbal have that has longer vertical hammerings (?), like the first one you posted, compared to one whose hammerings are more uniform in width/length? I think it's the photographing that creates the impression of a vertical hammering.
The first one was hammered deeper. In general (!!), deeper marks add more trash.

[Drum Phil]

Wow.

Just wow.

[al98]

I'm confused on where to get the anvil from? Any help

And amazing cymbal work! How did you go about getting started?

Thanks

[ofDooM]

wow...that is amazing...i would LOVE to do that to one of my paiste protos...they sound meh'ish.

[Drum Monkey]

Johan, I was just on MikeDolbear.com and I noticed you seemed to know your stuff when it comes to Stagg. Would you be able to help me out in my thread?

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470035

Thanks.

-DM

[Johan VDS]

Just added my comment to your Stagg thread...

[Drum Monkey]

Thank you. You'll certainly be an asset here!

-DM

[Quinto]

from what i hear what your doing isnt really that hard with certain tools is that true?

[Jezen]

from what i hear what your doing isnt really that hard with certain tools is that true?

No, the tools are basic and easy to get hold of. The skill however, is a long process to attain.

[Johan VDS]

No, the tools are basic and easy to get hold of. The skill however, is a long process to attain.Quite. But don't let that stop you :smash:

[Jezen]

Well it obviously didn't stop you, but i'm sure you went through quite a few cymbals to learn how to hammer.

[Johan VDS]

Lots to be precise :)

[steve_o_69]

were do you start out learning to hammer cybals and what is all of the equipment you need:chug:

[Drum Monkey]

were do you start out learning to hammer cybals and what is all of the equipment you need:chug:
He mentioned it earlier in the thread... You need some cymbals (duh), some hammers and an anvil. The learning process is done through trial and error.

-DM

[ofDooM]

i think im going to buy some of my friends starter cymbals now...

[DethChamber999]

What would you charge to hemmer of pair of paiste pst3 13" hats that I have already?

[zfzgg]

Hey Jonas, (EDIT: Or Johan, whatever floats your boat:P) it would probably save you alot of questions if you linked to the drummerworld thread:)

Unless, of course, that's against the forum rules.

Once again, you're work is amazing.

[ofDooM]

So you would need a cymbal, a big metal thing to hammer it...

then you start pounding it and when youre done you lath it?

may i ask, how does the lathing process work?

[Johan VDS]

Hey Jonas ???????:amaze: :amaze: :smash:


how does the lathing process workIt's making a cymbal thinner on a machine that spins the cymbal around. At the same time this creates the "tonal grooves". Lathing is a very important step in the final sound. This way you also determine the "taper", the degree in which the cymbal becomes thinner towards the edge.

[Jezen]

Johan, do you think you could make a video of your modifying process? I know it would be a little bit difficult to type the entire process out.

[Johan VDS]

I don't have a camera. Anyway it would be wrong to assume that the modification-procedure for a specific cymbal could be applied to every cymbal. Each cymbal has different properties and needs a different approach.

[beaker_747]

secksiii. Nice work man. You could probably start a small business with that sort of talent

[Johan VDS]

Fresh from my hammer, soundfiles as usually on my SITE (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/).

20" Tony Williams (Nefertiti) ride :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_(from_Sabian_AA).jpg




20" Complex Dry Crashride :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Dry_Crashride_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg



20" Dry Complex Rough Ride :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Dry_Complex_Rough_Ride_(from_Paiste_Dimensions) .jpg

[Jezen]

What did those 3 start out as?

EDIT: Just heard your soundclips, and your work is superb.

[Sharkey Boy]

wow thats some real amazing work

[Johan VDS]

What did those 3 start out as?

The first was a Sabian AA, the second was a Paiste 2002, the third was a Paiste Dimensions.

[zfzgg]

???????:amaze: :amaze: :smash:

Ooooh...

erm..

sorry?:)

I'll read you're name properly next time *insert : + P smiley here*

Stupid four image limit.

[Johan VDS]

Ok, Spfthh, that's fine then !

[fastlane]

i would love to learn how to do that but im not going to risk even my stock pearl cymbals on it due to the fact that they are they only cymbals i have!!! lol but that is really cool. how did you learn to do that? where? what got you started? did you waste any cymbals?

[Jezen]

Pearl cymbals? Check Ebay, because you can get better cymbals for almost nothing. I'm not kidding.

[fastlane]

i see is it worth it to buy brand new cymbals or are used ones ok? what are some good intermediate cymbals that sound good and are ok for my level. i play mostly modern rock a little bit of metal but nothing heavier than slipknot or disturbed but mostly just modern rock like shinedown or someone like that.

[Jezen]

For the most part - when it comes to higher quality cymbals - used cymbals are better as long as they are taken care of.

[fastlane]

i know i have some stupid questions but how are used better? i mean are they actually better or are they just a better buy? ive heard that used cymbals sound better and that if they are taken care of they are really good.

edit: what type of cymbals would be good for my type of play as in zildjian a k avedis or what? im not buying zbts or nething like that i figure i might as well go ahead and spend the extra money and get good cymbals so i dont waste ne money on cheapos and another question what does fast splash mean? like what is the difference between a normal 10" splash and a fast splash?

[maniac0796]

I like what you've done to those cymbals man.
When i'm finshed with my 302's, and i get new cymbals, i might have a blaze with those. Could use schools equipment. I was hand hammering big strips of steel earlier this week, in hope of making some kinda drum shell, but my teacher got really larey.

Also, on a side note, as a belgian, do you speak dutch or french, or flanders? I know loads of belgian teenagers, and they all speak dutch, but, i was just wondering what language you spoke.

[Jezen]

i know i have some stupid questions but how are used better? i mean are they actually better or are they just a better buy? ive heard that used cymbals sound better and that if they are taken care of they are really good.

edit: what type of cymbals would be good for my type of play as in zildjian a k avedis or what? im not buying zbts or nething like that i figure i might as well go ahead and spend the extra money and get good cymbals so i dont waste ne money on cheapos and another question what does fast splash mean? like what is the difference between a normal 10" splash and a fast splash?

Your questions aren't stupid at all. It is wiser that you are actually asking.

Hennyway, good quality cymbals sound better with age because they develop their patina (natural cymbal aging). They generally become warmer with age.

Good cymbals include Zildjian Avedis, Zildjian K, Sabian HH, Sabian HHX, Paiste Dimensions, Paiste Signiature, Paiste Traditional, Meinl Byzance, Meinl Amun, Meinl Candela, Bosphorous, Istanbul Agop, Masterwork, UFIP ect ect ect....

Personally, I would look for Istanbul Agop. They are exceptional cymbals, and are usually less expensive than Zildjian, Sabian, Paiste, UFIP, Meinl ect.
What you will find is that the newest and most expensive Zildjian cymbals are being designed to sound more and more like Istanbul Agop. Makes sense to get that head start now right?

Istanbul Agop is an offshoot from Zildjian. Zildjian used to produce cymbals in Istanbul, but when they moved to America, some workers remained in Istanbul and kept the old Zildjian traditions going, and implemented some new ideas aswell.

Moving swiftly on, 'fast' means that the cymbal takes less time to decay. The overtones don't stay around for as long.. It basically shuts up quicker.

[Icky_Mettle]

Hey BB, since you're the resident agop fanatic, would a 17'' sultan crash be loud enough for rock/funk? I love the sound and want to know if I could use it for those styles...don't feel like emailing sspercussion because I'm not gonna buy for another month or so.


EDIT: oh s***...the trad. dark crash sounds like sex and really seems like it'd fit well with my HHX groove.

[Jezen]

17" Sultan Crash - Yes.

Traditional Dark Crash - Yes.

I'm not saying that from bias either.

[Johan VDS]

how did you learn to do that? where? what got you started? did you waste any cymbals?Simply by a lot of experimenting and trial and error. Sure I wasted cymbals in my beginning years.

Also, on a side note, as a belgian, do you speak dutch or frenchI speak Dutch.

[Jezen]

Johan would you agree with my previous post?

[Johan VDS]

Johan would you agree with my previous post?Every identical model sounds different, certainly when it's a Turkish cymbal, but even Paiste Trads. So you can't just say: order that cymbal and it will work for you. You have to pick the one you like in the shop. Never order those types of cymbals. You can only do that with Paiste 2002's, Sigs...

Besides this, what kind of factory cymbals are the best seems a little off-topic to me because I don't make cymbals in a "factory" way :p

[Jezen]

Yes, that is known and taken into regards. Although they are individual, models of the same series generally conform to the same sound. Two Agop Sig rides will sound more alike than an Agop Sig ride and a Sultan Jazz ride.

[Johan VDS]

Sure, but the difference between two "identical" cymbals can still be so large that one may sound very beautiful to someone and the other downright ugly. So never order those types of cymbals, go and check them out for yourself and make a choice only from the ones you find in the shops.

The huge inconsisteny (which is the largest with hand-hammered Turkish and even more with Chinese cymbals) is caused by the fact that most cymbalsmiths are only trained to shape the cymbals by handhammering and are not able to fine-tune them by hammering. They hammer without listening to the evolution of sound and without checking if the tension is correct in all areas of the cymbal, which sometimes makes some parts of the cymbal unplayable. Like many rides have an ugly hollow tone near the bell (the so called "barking seal"). The major part of the Turkish cymbalsmiths (apart from the few mastersmiths of course) don't even know how a good cymbal is supposed to sound. Their only task is to shape cymbals. But the huge demand makes it impossible to have all of the roughly shaped cymbals fine-tuned by the mastersmiths.

Hennyway, good quality cymbals sound better with age because they develop their patina (natural cymbal aging). They generally become warmer with agePatina only makes the cymbals a little drier. The biggest sound change comes from the metal tension that's relaxing over the years.
This older, more buttery effect is something I often incorporate in my cymbals with a special hammering strategy.

[deadwith0utmusic]

o man i want to do that to my zxts. i know i wouldnt be able to get them to sound good, but those look so nice. and everyone knows looks are the only thing that counts.

[Johan VDS]

everyone knows looks are the only thing that counts. I can imagine more beautiful things than cymbals to attach on a cymbal stand :p
Interested in a few trendy umbrella's ???

[maniac0796]

From the Istanbul Agop cymbal guide:

Master craftsmen shape the cymbal by hammering, which is the only way our cymbals are shaped. Then, 6 different craftsmen hammer it, with a master craftsmen perfecting the sound at the end.

[Johan VDS]

From the Istanbul Agop cymbal guide:
Master craftsmen shape the cymbal by hammering, which is the only way our cymbals are shaped. Then, 6 different craftsmen hammer it, with a master craftsmen perfecting the sound at the end.That's the theory.
But if you carefully compare identical models and check them not only for sound quality (which is subjective) but also for dissonant harmonics or unplayable areas and warpage you'll find a different reality. If you however succeed in finding the better made ones, you may stumble upon a few gems that leave any cymbal made by the Big 3 far behind.

The theories you find in Zildjian/Sabian/Paiste guides about their "handcrafting" are however much further from the truth :rolleyes:

[deadwith0utmusic]

I can imagine more beautiful things than cymbals to attach on a cymbal stand :p
Interested in a few trendy umbrella's ???
lol

[Johan VDS]

what got you started?Not finding the sound I wanted in the shops.

What would you charge to hemmer of pair of paiste pst3 13" hats that I have already?
Check THIS (http://jvds.byethost15.com/MODIFICATION_RATES-PROCEDURE-CONTACT.doc)link...
BUT...Pst 3 is brass alloy. Not worth hammering !

[Johan VDS]

Here's some new ones I hammered.


18"Complex Light Ride 1340 gr:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Complex_Light_Ride_1340gr_(from_Ufip).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Complex_Light_Ride_1340gr_(from_Ufip).jpg




20" Light Complex Dry Jazz ride 1870gr:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Dry_Jazz_ride_1870gr_(from_Zildji an_Avedis).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Dry_Jazz_ride_1870gr_(from_Zildji an_Avedis).jpg





20" Complex Light Jazz Ride 1850gr :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Light_Jazz_Ride_1850gr_(from_Zildjian_A vedis).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Light_Jazz_Ride_1850gr_(from_Zildjian_A vedis).jpg





And finally, a 22" Paiste Signature Power Ride, hammered and lathed into a 22,75" Extra Dark ride, 2820 gr. The very soft B15 "Paiste Alloy" allowed me to make the cymbal 0,75" larger!

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/22,75_Extra_Dark_Ride_2820gr_(from_Paiste_Signatur e_22_Power_Ride).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/22,75_Extra_Dark_Ride_2820gr_(from_Paiste_Signatur e_22_Power_Ride).jpg



Pics and soundfiles of many other cymbals on my webspace (http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/) !

[Zildjian]

That power ride sounds incredible....You got a real talent man, its incredible

[fastlane]

do you have prices in u.s prices? like a pair of 14" stock pearl hi hats would cost how much in u.s. money? what about a 18" stock pearl ride/crash?

[Johan VDS]

do you have prices in u.s prices? like a pair of 14" stock pearl hi hats would cost how much in u.s. money? what about a 18" stock pearl ride/crash?I really have no idea, better check at you local shop.

[Johan VDS]

I finished two sets of 15" Jazz hihats.


If the links to the soundfiles doesn't work you can find the cymbals on my webspace in my signature.

15" Light Hihats 798 845 gr.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_798_845gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).m p3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_798_845gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).j pg




15" Hihats 869 1325gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Hihats_869_1325gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Hihats_869_1325gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis).jpg

[drummingducktape]

these are awesome man. i wanna do that. i really love the 15" Light Hihats 798 845 gr. do you sell these? i love it

[Johan VDS]

i really love the 15" Light Hihats 798 845 gr. do you sell these? i love itSure, if you're interested please mail (drumcymb@yahoo.com) me.

[Daven]

Those look awesome.

[NewMetman]

So what makes the cymbal colour get darker afterwards? Oxidization? And what do you do with these cymbals? Do you drum yourself?

[poppinfresh]

that happens when you lathe off a layer of the metal. The metal isnt shiny throughout.

[Johan VDS]

So what makes the cymbal colour get darker afterwards? Oxidization? I treat some of the cymbals chemically to create a (real) layer of patina (not a coating but an actual skin of oxide). I do this to create a slightly dryer sound, like an old oxidized cymbal. By lathing some of it away afterwards I can control the degree of dryness and at the same time create visual effects.

And what do you do with these cymbals?Play and/or sell them.

Do you drum yourself?Sure, that's why I started modifying my drums and cymbals. Here's a little video of me playing (it's in Real-format):

http://jvds.byethost15.com/Solo_from_2002.rm

There I'm playing my self-hammered (rock) cymbals, my self-built snare, my set of Adams drums (great Dutch drums!), an old Pearl hihatstand and a single Adams bassdrumpedal.

The videoclip is a couple of years old, but here's a more recent pic of me:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/pic.jpg

[Jezen]

Awesome solo!

[Plan B.]

Yeah dude, that ripped!

I love seeing live solo vids because it shows how a drummer can really play.

I can't believe I haven't seen this thread. I swear I posted in it already. I absolutely love the sound of your 21" Wobble Ride from a UFIP.

:cool:

[drummingducktape]

do you sell these for a lot? like how much would you sell the 15" Light Hihats for? im jw, ive wannted to do this kind of thing for a long time.

[Johan VDS]

do you sell these for a lot? like how much would you sell the 15" Light Hihats for? im jw, ive wannted to do this kind of thing for a long time.I don't know if mentioning prices is allowed here, so better send me a mail for this.

Anyway some info about my modification service and my custom cymbals can be found HERE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/MODIFICATION_RATES-PROCEDURE-CONTACT.doc).

[Zildjian]

So how long does doing stuff like this take??

[DxRocker]

I am a Belgian drummer who also hammers cymbals. I once started doing this because (to me) no modern factory made cymbal offers the "old" Turkish K kind of darkness and complexity anymore.


*cough* istanbul agop *cough* :lol:

Seriously though, where in belgium exactly are you located?
I'm from antwerp and have some old cymbals laying around.

I wouldn't mind some more turkish feel around my rig :naughty:

If we can work stuff out maybe, drop me an email, you'll find my address in my profile.

edit: ok ok... I didn't read the whole thread and just saw your mail address :P Nevermind, I'll add you to my contacts and contact you one of these days. Maybe I can step by and check some of your stuff out :)

[GooseFilms.net]

that **** is nice

[Johan VDS]

Maybe I can step by and check some of your stuff out :)You're welcome !

[knie]

Amazing solo and amazing cymbals!

[Johan VDS]

Here's a newly finished 20" Tony Williams "Nefertiti" ride.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Medium_Ride_2335gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedi s).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Medium_Ride_2335gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedi s).jpg




More Tony Williams-like ride cymbals I hammered can be seen and heard in this map:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/


.

[Johan VDS]

A new one again:

20" Smooth Jazz Ride 1980 grams

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Smooth_Jazz_Ride_1980gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis). mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Smooth_Jazz_Ride_1980gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis). jpg

[Johan VDS]

Two sets of heavily modified Paiste 2002 hihats, now both light jazzy hihats.


13" Light hats :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Light_Hihats_577_775gr_(from_Paiste_2002).mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Light_Hihats_577_775gr_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg





15" Light hats :

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_894_924gr_(from_Paiste_2002).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/15_Light_Hihats_894_924gr_(from_Paiste_2002).jpg

[Johan VDS]

20" Bright Medium Complex Ride 2210 grams:


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Bright_Medium_Complex_Ride_2210gr_(from_Sabian_ AA).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Bright_Medium_Complex_Ride_2210gr_(from_Sabian_ AA).jpg

[Chippy569]

you sure do like tearin' apart them paiste's, don't you?

what kind of lathe are you running? (metal lathe, duh, but what make/model?)

on average, how long does it take start-to-finish on, say, one of those rides?

do you do any non-jazzy cymbals?

[Johan VDS]

I built my own lathe.

I do all kinds of cymbals, like heavy rock cymbals as well.

A ride can take 6 hours before I'm really happy.

[ofDooM]

are there any lathes you would know that you would suggest to someone starting out in cymbal re-hammering?

if someone were to build their own like you, what parts would they need?

and one last question...about how much would a typical lathe that could work on all kinds of cymbals cost?

[DxRocker]

you sure do like tearin' apart them paiste's, don't you?


That's good. I got an old Paiste laying around on wich he can go nuts like a mofo :D

C ya soon Johan.

(ps: "soon" in DX land means a couple weeks/months :smash: )

[Johan VDS]

if someone were to build their own like you, what parts would they need?and one last question...about how much would a typical lathe that could work on all kinds of cymbals cost?A powerful electric motor of about 2 HP, a heavy duty shaft with two roller bearings, some pulleys and an a belt. A very heavy solid workbench to mount everything on, a backing plate with a hardened threaded steel rod to mount the cymbal on and a rest for the cutting tool. About 900 euro.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a new special effects cymbal I hammered. I called it the 18" "Ripple Trash" for obvious reasons. It's 1850 grams and has several sounds. It can be used as a china-like cymbal but also as a ride.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/18_Ripple_Trash_1850gr_(from_Ufip).mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/18_Ripple_Trash_1850gr_(from_Ufip).jpg




Also a newly hammered 24" Tony Williams ("Nefertiti") ride 2985 grams.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/24_Dark_Complex_Ride_2985_gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis ).mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/24_Dark_Complex_Ride_2985_gr_(from_Zildjian_Avedis ).jpg





Some more new cymbals, including hihats and effects, can be found on my site (cf my signature beneath).

[Marky_Mark]

Wow that "Ripple Trash" one sounds very nice. It has a nice range of sounds. How accurate do you think your recordings are?

[Johan VDS]

Most people say that the live sound is richer and warmer than my mp3's.

I don't do any sound-editing on the recordings.

[DxRocker]

That riplle trash is bloody awesome

[Johan VDS]

That riplle trash is bloody awesomeLooks or sound ? :rolleyes:

[DxRocker]

lol, both actually :)

I took the time to listen to the others as well. (Don't have audio at work, wich is where I do most of my surfing :P )

I was convinced you were the real deal before, just by what you said, I could see you knew what you were talking about.

But dang dude, I didn't expect those cymbals to sound THAT good.

I'm seriously impressed over here.

[Johan VDS]

Cool !

[Aaron]

damn you and being in belgium, i have a few i'd love to give to you to work with.

[Johan VDS]

damn you and being in belgium, i have a few i'd love to give to you to work with.It's not far :)

[Aaron]

I'm from Australia, not Austria, lol. Jokes.

[FockerTheLopper]

Wow, where do you get a lathing machine?
Accually can you tell me all the equipment you use. Thanks
I also have a question were you ever happy with it but then you kept going and you didnt like it anymore?

[Johan VDS]

I'm from Australia, not Austria, lol. Jokes.It's really not far...by airmail ! :p

Accually can you tell me all the equipment you use. ThanksPls read the thread from the beginning...

[Sunshine]

I don't really know much about cymbals and such...

But that "Ripple Trash," wow.

Amazing.

[FooBuddy1989]

^^^ i agree, that thing should be mass produced

[Johan VDS]

So far, there's only one :)

[Johan VDS]

you sure do like tearin' apart them paiste's, don't you? I love it.

[Johan VDS]

Now for some brighter stuff.


14" Bright Crisp Hihats 903-1130gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Bright_Crisp_Hihats_903_1130gr_-from_Paiste_2002.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Bright_Crisp_Hihats_903_1130gr_-from_Paiste_2002.jpg




18" Bright Dry Ride 1530gr

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Bright_Dry_Ride_1530gr_-from_Paiste_2002.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Bright_Dry_Ride_1530gr_-from_Paiste_2002.jpg

[some jive turkey]

Cool stuff.

Rehammering sounds like an awesome craft, ...there's something nice about taking crap cymbals and turning them into listenable instruments. It's like you're doing the world a service. hahaha

I wish I had a lathe to try this out.
Do you have to heat the cymbals to hammer them, or do you just hit them at room temp?
What types of chemicals would you put on the cymbals to create a nice patina?

[Johan VDS]

Handhammering is done cold.
The patina chemicals are very dangerous, so it would be very irresponsible to tell. In any case, the patina is not a coating, but it's really part of the metal.


Here's Sabian AA 20" Crash which was very high pitched, but I hammered it into a 20" Dark Crash. Sounds like THIS (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Dark_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.mp3) now and here's what it looks like:

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Dark_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.jpg

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 20" Paiste Traditional Medium Light Ride I completely rehammered.

Here's a "before and after" SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_Traditional_20_ML_Ride_before_and_after.mp3 )


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Jazzride_-from_Paiste_Traditional.jpg

[DxRocker]

Awesome as usual :)

[Johan VDS]

Thanks, here's more:

A 20" Tony Williams "Nefertiti" style of ride I hammered from a Zildjian Avedis Medium Ride.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_2045gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_2045gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg





Also a 20" High Complex Jazz Ride, hammered from a Ufip Class Ride.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_High_Complex_Jazz_Ride_1945gr_-from_Ufip.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_High_Complex_Jazz_Ride_1945gr_-from_Ufip.jpg

[Johan VDS]

Some re-created 15" crashes:

15" Dark Medium Crash, made from a 15" Zildjian Avedis crash.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Medium_Crash_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Medium_Crash_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg






15" Dark Thin Fast Crash, made from a Sabian AA 15" crash.

SOUNDFILE (http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Thin_Fast_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.mp3)

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/15_Dark_Thin_Fast_Crash_-from_Sabian_AA.jpg

[Johan VDS]

On Cymbalholic, some American drummers have posted a review of cymbals I hammered for them :

http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11957

http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11948


Also a general post about my work:

http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11932

[Tim]

what would it cost to get something done from you johan? i have an old Sabian Pro 10inch splash lying around and just wondering what you would charge to have that hammered.

[Johan VDS]

Check this:
http://jvds.byethost15.com/MODIFICATION_RATES-PROCEDURE-CONTACT.doc

[ofDooM]

you really like making dark cymbals dont you? your work is one of a kind though...

[Drum Phil]

Mailed you man :)

[Johan VDS]

Here's a set of fairly bright 13" funky hihats I hammered from Ufip 13" hats.

Soundfile
http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Funky_Hihats_798_912gr-from_Ufip.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/13_Funky_Hihats_798_912gr-from_Ufip.jpg

[drummerdave]

man your stuff is incredible, but what i want to know, is what your personal set up consists of

[GooseFilms.net]

johan, you really need a website to showcase your work

[othankheavenfor311]

dude you rock... could i order cymbals from you?

[Johan VDS]

dude you rock... could i order cymbals from you?Sure, just mail me. You'll find my emailaddress here:
http://jvds.byethost15.com/MODIFICATION_RATES-PROCEDURE-CONTACT.doc




Here are two 20" Paiste B8 alloy cymbals (crash and ride) which I had to convert into a 20" Ripple Trash and an 18" Radial Trash.

Here's a before and after clip of the ride, which is now a 20" Ripple trash.
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_ride_before_and_after_into_20_Ripp le_Trash.mp3

Looks like this now:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_ride_hammered_into_20_Ripple_Trash .jpg




Here's a before and after clip of the crash, which is now a Radial Trash.
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_Crash_before_and_after_into_18_Rad ial_Trash.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Paiste_B8_alloy_Crash_hammered_into_18_Radial_Tras h.jpg

[drummerdave]

they look amazing, but the page is not found when you click the link

[Johan VDS]

Here's a very Tony Williams-like 24" Dark Complex Jazzride I just finished for a Dutch drummer.

Before and after soundfile:

http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Zildjian_K_24_before_and_after.mp3


http://www.cymbalholic.com/gallery/data/500/P0003631.jpg

[Johan VDS]

Here's some beginner's B8 alloy Meinl MCS cymbals I upgraded. Same thing can be done with any other (cheap) B8 alloy cymbals.


A 16" Meinl MCS crash hammered into a 16" dark thin crash:

Before and after SOUNDFILE:
http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Meinl_16_MCS_crash_before_and_after_into_Dark_Cras h.mp3


picture:
http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=243083&stc=1



A Meinl 20" Meinl MCS ride, now a 20" Perforation Trashride

Before and after SOUNDFILE:
http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/from_AMATEUR_to_PROFESSIONAL_cymbal/Meinl_20_MCS_ride_before_and_after%20into_Perforat ion_Trashride.mp3

picture:
http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=243084&stc=1

[Plan B.]

Those Trashes are wicked!

Love the Perforation ride too, reminds me of a werid peice of alien metal.

(soundfiles are down I believe)

[LoneStarDrummer]

damn, everything looks so awsome. they sound really nice too. i love those funky sounding hats

[Aaron]

Hey J, I've got a 20" Paiste Dimensions Medium Crash which I wouldn't mind you going to town on. It works well as a crash-ride type, however has too much wash. What can you do to take the wash and projection out of something? Random big hammerings and micro-lathing?

[stevensonmat2]

Hows shipping to the US on a cymbal?

[Johan VDS]

Up to 5kg it's 30.25 euro (equals about $40)

[WyrmDL]

if it were up to me, id send all my old, unwanted cymbals to you.

incredible work there!

[DrummingNinja]

Aww, the sound files are down, I'm dying to hear them, they look gorgeous!

What are good "cheap" cymbals for reworking? You said the PST-3s aren't worth doing becuase they're a brass alloy. Are there any cymbals that cheap that would be worth redoing?

[Aaron]

B8s

[Johan VDS]

Yes everything made from B8 is worthwile to hammer.

Cheap B8 alloy cymbals can be converted into professional jazz or rock cymbals with a complex, rich tone. (B20 alloy has a warmer and richer sound by nature, but when extensively hammered, B8 can sound great).

Crash cymbals or even rides can also be turned into china's or other unique effectscymbals.

But don't ask me to transform a ZBT or Sabian B8 into something that sounds like a Paiste 2002 or any other factory type of cymbal. You can find zillions of these in shops or second hand. I make totally different, very extensively handhammered cymbals. Things you won't find in shops.







Anyway, I just finished some hihats:

14" Complex Hihats 887-974gr-from Zildjian Avedis

soundfile:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Complex_Hihats_887_974_gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Complex_Hihats_887_974_gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg







14" Dark Heavy Hihats -from Paiste 2002

soundfile
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Dark_Heavy_Hihats_from_Paiste_2002.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Dark_Heavy_Hihats_from_Paiste_2002.jpg

[weed_makes_me_faster]

Here's a question for you:

What do you consider yourself more? A craftsman or a drummer?

[Johan VDS]

Both. I wouldn't hammer cymbals if I weren't a drummer.

[ofDooM]

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/3_HIHATS/14_Complex_Hihats_887_974_gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg

i really like the look of those. very, very impressive.

about how many cymbals do you get mailed in, say weekly?

[Aaron]

you got a vault of cymbals crankin?

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 7" bell cymbal I hammered from a flat B20 bronze alloy disc. (I've also shaped the cup by cold-hammering.)
It's shape is similar to that of a china, so it's perfect for reversed mounting (cup facing down) on top of another cymbal.

It kinda screams, so I called it the Yell Bell.

SOUNDFILE:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Yell_Bell.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Yell_Bell.jpg

[Aaron]

wow!

[ludvista29]

Dude thats awesome, I want to be able to do that, but I have no skills what so ever! xDD good job!

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 20" Light Complex Full Bell Ride I hammered from a Sabian AA Medium ride.

This one is rather a special hammering concept because the bell has a deeper and fuller sound than you would expect from a cymbal this thin and high pitched.


SOUNDFILE:
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Full_Bell_Ride_1825gr_-from_Sabian_AA.mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Full_Bell_Ride_1825gr_-from_Sabian_AA.jpg

[Damo]

The theories you find in Zildjian/Sabian/Paiste guides about their "handcrafting" are however much further from the truth
Would you care to elaborate with respect to Sabian?

I ask because the Sabians I saw looked pretty 'handcrafted' to me.

Awesome hammering work, btw. Ive tried hammering myself, but I wont be employed to do it anytime soon :)

[Plan B.]

That Yell Bell is pwnage!

[Johan VDS]

Hey J, I've got a 20" Paiste Dimensions Medium Crash which I wouldn't mind you going to town on. It works well as a crash-ride type, however has too much wash. What can you do to take the wash and projection out of something? Random big hammerings and micro-lathing?I'd need to have the cymbal with me to answer that. But I don't hammer at random. That's not what decent hand-hammering is about. Zildjian and Sabian want everybody to believe that to justify for their random hammering. The little hand-hammering Sabian do is equally random as Zildjian's machine K hammering and just as much without a sound strategy).

I ask because the Sabians I saw looked pretty 'handcrafted' to meCheck:
http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118436&postcount=16

[Aaron]

I'd need to have the cymbal with me to answer that. But I don't hammer at random. That's not what decent hand-hammering is about. Zildjian and Sabian want everybody to believe that to justify for their random hammering. The little hand-hammering Sabian do is equally random as Zildjian's machine K hammering and just as much without a sound strategy).
Well if it helps, it had quite pronounced lathing lines and not much hammering at all. It's quite a one toned, big crash type. Very classic sounding but without dimensions [lol, I Know]. I'd love for it to be turned into a really funky, gritty sounding jazz crash-ride..

here's a picture:
http://www.vintagedrum.com/fullimage/pst-dim-med-raw-crsh.jpg

[White Riot!]

it needs to be hammered to the craphouse!

http://www.tradingmusician.com/images/products/minlac14.jpg

even my amun has more hammerring than that paiste!

[Damo]

But I don't hammer at random. That's not what decent hand-hammering is about. Zildjian and Sabian want everybody to believe that to justify for their random hammering. The little hand-hammering Sabian do is equally random as Zildjian's machine K hammering and just as much without a sound strategy).

I have to disagree with you there. Ive witnessed, first hand, the strategies employed by Sabians hammersmiths, and these guys aboslutely do work with a strategy when they hammer. Furthermore, ANY sabian cymbal can be customized with more hammering to achieve any result a customer desires.

Of course, due to the nature and size of their business, they wouldnt be able to do this any quicker, or any more often than any other hammersmiths because it still relies on one person to do the hammering.

Im not trying to be argumentative, but some of the hammersmiths at sabian have been there 25 years, and its a little unfair to claim they dont work with any sort of sound strategy.

[Johan VDS]

I have to disagree with you there. Ive witnessed, first hand, the strategies employed by Sabians hammersmiths, and these guys aboslutely do work with a strategy when they hammer. Furthermore, ANY sabian cymbal can be customized with more hammering to achieve any result a customer desiresHave you ever seen a Sabian cymbalsmith constantly interrupt hammering to play the cymbal all over it's surface? I'm sure you haven't (perhaps during a public display but they don't do it when nobody watches). All they do is add a relatively small amount of hammering to a pressed cymbal, not enough to considerably alter the sound that is created by the shape that has been pressed by the machine. Actually the strategic Sabian hammering is done by a machine, like the bigger dents you see on HHX, Legacy or Artisan or Jojo Mayer Signatures.
The only thing the cymbalsmiths check during or immediately after the hammering is the shape.

Another thing: when the Sabian guys display their hammering to the public, like on a Vault tour or during a factory visit, they don't do it to the same (smaller) extent like when nobody watches. It's marketing !
Sabian advertisements, folders, website sometimes display a Handhammered blank being hammered very extensively. But the ones you find in the shops are much less hammered.
Most of the hammering they do is on the topside of the cymbals, because top hammering catches the eye. But to really get a fabulous and especially complex sound (which a really handhammered cymbal is supposed to have), you not only need to do MUCH more hammering, but also a lot of bottom hammering.

[Johan VDS]

Well if it helps, it had quite pronounced lathing lines and not much hammering at all. It's quite a one toned, big crash type. Very classic sounding but without dimensions [lol, I Know]. I'd love for it to be turned into a really funky, gritty sounding jazz crash-ride..No problem !

[Aaron]

I'll send you an email when i'm in the position to, but how much would postage be from Australia?!

[Damo]

But to really get a fabulous and especially complex sound (which a really handhammered cymbal is supposed to have), you not only need to do MUCH more hammering, but also a lot of bottom hammering.

But by hammering the bottom, you would tighten the back of the cymbal, which would alter the vibrating abilities of the cymbal and weaken the structure - making the cymbal less resonant. This is why most manufacturers do not hammer the underneath of cymbals, or if it is done, its to a very small extent and always around the thickest part of the cymbal, ie bell.

[Johan VDS]

But by hammering the bottom, you would tighten the back of the cymbal, which would alter the vibrating abilities of the cymbal and weaken the structure - making the cymbal less resonant.I'm sorry but that's totally incorrect. Both top and bottom hammering are essential to create the right tension and make the cymbal resonate optimally.
Hammering is very much yin and yang. The more you hammer the top, the more you'll have to hammer the bottom or the sound will suffocate.

The reason why the big 3 can get away with doing hardly any bottom hammering is because even the top-hammering they do is very limited compared to a fully handhammered cymbal. Check cymbals from Turkey, they're hammered both on top and bottom to virtually the same extent.

Don't take my word for it (even though I'm a cymbalsmith), but get yourself a cheap cymbal, a hammer and and anvil, and check for yourself. You'll see that your information is wrong.

[Johan VDS]

I'll send you an email when i'm in the position to, but how much would postage be from Australia?!I can only thell you the postage to Australia, that's 30.25 euro up to 5 kg.

[Damo]

I'm sorry but that's totally incorrect. Both top and bottom hammering are essential to create the right tension and make the cymbal resonate optimally.
Hammering is very much yin and yang. The more you hammer the top, the more you'll have to hammer the bottom or the sound will suffocate.

I guess we'll agree to disagree then :)

Either way, youve got a great talent - congrats

[Johan VDS]

Perhaps you can explain why you are so convinced of this theory?

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 20" Light Ride 1830 grams I hammered from a Zildjian Avedis Medium ride

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Ride_1830gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Ride_1830gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg

[Damo]

Perhaps you can explain why you are so convinced of this theory?
Sure.

As I said, Im no hammersmith, but I have got access to some great info and hammersmiths that have been doing it a long long time and are familiar with the authentic Turkish techniques.

Again, what you are doing is amazing work, and if everybody did things the same way, we'd never move forward! :)

[Josiah]

Hmm interesting..

*pure consumer alert*


Personally, I don't care how they do it. I'll hit whatever sounds good hahaha



If one day they find some amazing way of laser lathing a cymbal that has 10,000 grooves in it.. and it makes a better sound then my 19" A custom crash and projects truly over 500 yards. I'm buying it.

[Johan VDS]

I have got access to some great info and hammersmiths that have been doing it a long long time and are familiar with the authentic Turkish techniques.
The authentic Turkish techniques involve just as much bottom hammering as top hammering. At least take a moment to study an unlathed Turkish cymbal like a Turk, because such a cymbal clearly displays the hammering strokes. You will see for yourself that there's a huge amount of bottom hammering.
If studying such a cymbal and seeing the huge amount of bottom hammering with your own eyes doesn't even convince you, I would like to know why and be very interested to see and read that "great info" you are talking about and especially know the origin of it.

[Johan VDS]

Well, Damo ???

[Damo]

Johan,

Arguing your cymbal hammering theories with me is like a motocross champion trying to prove his superiority to a kid whos just learnt to balance on a trike.

Ive already proclaimed that I know very little about the specifics of hammering, but I have had a lot of experience with what I see everyday. Are you saying that guys like Kerope Zilcan (who used and taught hammersmiths to use very little to no hammering underneath, due to the known structural issues it caused) had no idea what he was doing?

Im not saying it doesnt benefit the sound to hammer the bottom - Your soundclips prove that it does make a difference, but its a balancing act. Its important to remember that cymbals are not played in nearly the same context they were traditionally played, and in todays musical environment (and with prices the way they are) there are many that would argue that durability and versatility are just as important as sound.

I stand by my initial remark that hammering too much weakens the structure of the cymbal, particularly on the bottom. This has nothing to do with cymbal-making - its scientific fact. The more you compress, stretch and alter the molecular alignment of a piece of metal the weaker it becomes - like bending a fork back and forth, eventually it will form faultlines within the metal. Proof of this can be seen with the deep, wide circular hammering on Z-custom Zildjians and why they keep getting returned to stores with cracks in the same place...

Im not having a go at the quality of your work - its superb and I wish I had 10% of the talent you possess! But I also believe you have addressed the issue of sound so extensively that you may have overlooked other equally important factors that qualify a cymbal as being 'superior' in todays market.

Take care

[Johan VDS]

Are you saying that guys like Kerope Zilcan (who used and taught hammersmiths to use very little to no hammering underneath, due to the known structural issues it caused) had no idea what he was doing?If Kerope would have taught hammersmiths to do hardly any bottom hammering it would be impossible to even create the shape of a cymbal. You try it. Once again I urge you to check a modern Turk cymbal and see the loads of bottom hammermarks for yourself. This is the traditional way in which Kerope learned people to hammer cymbals: both top and bottom hammering in balanced way. But apparently you refuse to see with your own eyes that the truth is different from the theory you have heard of and which you blindly consider to be true without thorough investigation.


In todays musical environment (and with prices the way they are) there are many that would argue that durability and versatility are just as important as sound.Durability is one of my primary concerns since quite a bit of the people that play my cymbals are hard hitting rock drummers. That's why I choose to use Zildjian and Sabian cymbals as blanks: their B20 alloy is more durable than any other.
I will hammer a cymbal differently for a jazz drummer than for a rock drummer, but in both cases I will do a lot of top and bottom hammering. But the way in which I tension, shape and lathe the cymbal will be different.


The more you compress, stretch and alter the molecular alignment of a piece of metal the weaker it becomes - like bending a fork back and forth, eventually it will form faultlines within the metal. Of course, that's metal fatigue. But that could result from excessive top-hammering as well (and even more than from bottom hammering !). But any cymbalsmith (at least one who is not trying to make excuses for doing only little hammering like Sabian and Zildjian do all the time !) will tell you that when a cymbal needs to be hammered extensively (which, again, the big 3 don't do anymore), the hammering must be spread over a larger period of time with resting periods in between hammering sessions to let the molecules recristallize so they do not get into the state of metal fatigue.
So excessive hammering that would put the integrity of the cymbal at risk is just doing too much hammering in one go, without letting the metal rest sufficiently in between hammering sessions.


Proof of this can be seen with the deep, wide circular hammering on Z-custom Zildjians and why they keep getting returned to stores with cracks in the same place...Proof of what ? That overhammering leads to breakage? Z-Customs, just like any other modern cymbal of the big 3 are actually hammered very little !! They certainly do NOT break from being overhammered because it's very obvious they are not. You can easily count the hammerstrokes on a Z-Custom. But try to count the many thousands of hammerstrokes of a fully handhammered Turkish cymbal ! Zildjian and Sabian are trying to compensate the ridiculous small amount of hammerstrokes by making them deeper (like on Z Customs and K Constantinoples or Sabian HHX and Fierce) and that's not a good idea for durability because extra deep hammering can create weak zones if they are created with one giant blow of a machine hammer, hereby compressing and stretching the metal much too fast. So when they break, they will probably break there. If I create deep hammering dents, I make them with many tiny hammerblows placed together, denting and stretching the metal in a much more gentle way, not overstressing the metal. Not to mention the richer sound this approach results in.
However the main reason that Z-Customs break is not because of the deep hammering but because they are too stiff and have no give under heavy playing. Why are they too stiff? Why, for that matter, are many modern cymbals too stiff and have a suffocated lower frequency output? Because they are almost exclusively top-hammered ! Your earlier statement:But by hammering the bottom, you would tighten the back of the cymbalclearly proves that your information/theory is totally wrong, because bottom hammering actually loosens the structure instead of tightening it !
It's exactly the delicate balance between top and bottom hammering that creates the right tension, not only for an optimal soundbalance of high and low frequencies, but also for durability. I can make Z-Customs both sound better and more durable by adding (strategic !) bottom-hammering.

I stand by my initial remark that hammering too much weakens the structure of the cymbal, particularly on the bottom.Do you consider yourself qualified enough to determine that a really dedicated and experienced cymbalsmith (one who refuses to hammer in a hasty and sparse manner like those from the Big 3 who mainly want to create a visually attractive hammering and therefore mainly do top-hammering) hammers the bottom too much?
Does this theory that you have heard of (but which you refuse to put to the test) give you any authority of knowing things better than cymbalsmiths who hammer cymbals in a really dedicated manner (not in a mass production-factory style)?

On the one hand you confess to know very little about the specifics of hammering, yet on the other hand you start an argument by claiming that "I overlook important factors that qualify a cymbal as being superior", while defending your theory with no valid argument and even refuse to reveal the origin of your theory. Why do you -as a moderator who should have an open mind- have a blind belief in such a theory even though you can easily observe that the truth is different if you would just take a minute to have a quick look at the back of an Istanbul or Bosphorus Turk?
So I once again repeat my question: where does your theory come from ??? That would make this discussion much more relevant than just saying: I know because I have access to great information (without revealing the source).

Arguing your cymbal hammering theories with me is like a motocross champion trying to prove his superiority to a kid whos just learnt to balance on a trikeWho started the argument here? I'm afraid it was kid who just learnt to balance on a trike...but who at the same time claims to know things better than the motocrosser. So before you claim the motocrosser "has talent" BUT is doing things wrong or overlooks important aspects that would make his driving better, I suggest you put the theories you heard of to a serious test before claiming they are the bible.

It is exactly because of the way factories now hammer cymbals (or rather hardly hammer cymbals anymore and mislead people into believing that there is a reason for the little hammering they do) that I decided to learn hammering my own cymbals 20 years ago. I'm a drummer who plays everything for acoustic jazz to heavy metal and I play my own creations, sometimes very violently. I've never broken one. But they sound much richer than factory cymbals and give me much more inspiration than the often plastic sounding Big 3 cymbals.
The fact that more and more drummers from all over the world ask me to hammer theirs should mean something too I guess ?

[iron_bru_32]

hi geeze i want to know what all the tools you need and use are called and how much do they cost and were can i get them from everything and if you can be bother can you explain the method of hammering
or give us a website that explains or gives us a basic idear thanks geeze
p.s you are very good you should try going into it as a bissness

[WyrmDL]

his tools and such are posted in this thread somewhere.

i think hes already got a business going on as well..

[Daven]

hi geeze i want to know what all the tools you need and use are called and how much do they cost and were can i get them from everything and if you can be bother can you explain the method of hammering
or give us a website that explains or gives us a basic idear thanks geeze
p.s you are very good you should try going into it as a bissness

A powerful electric motor of about 2 HP, a heavy duty shaft with two roller bearings, some pulleys and an a belt. A very heavy solid workbench to mount everything on, a backing plate with a hardened threaded steel rod to mount the cymbal on and a rest for the cutting tool. About 900 euro.

...

[Aaron]

In conclusion, he built the lathe himself.

[Johan VDS]

20" Light Complex Ride 1830 grams, hammered from a Ufip Class ride.

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Ride_1830gr_-from_Ufip.mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Ride_1830gr_-from_Ufip.jpg

[iPityTheFOOL]

Johan, clearly you have spent a lot of time developing your hammering, you seem to really know a lot about it. But im just wondering... whats your beef with Damo?

You can hammer cymbals like a pro, but is it nescesary to vigorusly condemn any ideas that are not harmonious with your own high and mighty ideals?

I mean come on! As an artist you have to be able to take some advice/constructive critisism, right?

I'm pretty new here but from what i have seen, Damo seems like a nice guy who just wants to contribute to the forum. Don't be so competitive! Lets just all try to be respectful of each other, OK?

[Aaron]

Johan, clearly you have spent a lot of time developing your hammering, you seem to really know a lot about it. But im just wondering... whats your beef with Damo?

You can hammer cymbals like a pro, but is it nescesary to vigorusly condemn any ideas that are not harmonious with your own high and mighty ideals?

I mean come on! As an artist you have to be able to take some advice/constructive critisism, right?

I'm pretty new here but from what i have seen, Damo seems like a nice guy who just wants to contribute to the forum. Don't be so competitive! Lets just all try to be respectful of each other, OK?
It's obvious neither have a "beef." They're both mature musicians who are discussing something. People here forget that forums are about that, discussion. It's not all posting pictures of cymbals and drums..

[Johan VDS]

@ PityTheFOOL:

Is it your belief that people who have no empirical knowledge of a certain matter at all should not be questioned when they claim to know things better than people who have many years of experience and are very dedicated to their craft?

Is there any disrespect or impoliteness in the questioning of statements of people who repeatedlly are asked to reveal their vague source of so-called "great" information but refuse to do so, while still pretending to know better, while only trying to prove their sayings with arguments that are plainly false? Especially when they themselves have taken the initiative of claiming the craftsman is wrong?

[Damo]

It's obvious neither have a "beef." They're both mature musicians who are discussing something. People here forget that forums are about that, discussion. It's not all posting pictures of cymbals and drums..
That exactly how I see it.

Johan, your explanation of your techniques has taught me a great deal and I thank you for participating in the forum. Its great to see people of your calibre discussing issues on the forum, and I have the upmost respect for you and your craft.

It was definitely not my intention to get on anyones bad side here, so please accept my apology if you have been offended by any remarks, be they mine or anyone elses.

Peace.

[Charlie Manson]

I mean come on! As an artist you have to be able to take some advice/constructive critisism, right?
Hmm actually no he doesn't.

[Johan VDS]

It was definitely not my intention to get on anyones bad side here, so please accept my apology if you have been offended by any remarks, be they mine or anyone elses.No need for apologies because I'm not at all offended. After all, this is a forum which should provide room for some discussion.
I only irritates me that you avoid to discuss the matter on which you claim me to be wrong. If you, as you said, indeed have great information which would prove me to be wrong, then why don't you reveal it ?

My hunch is that this so-called great source of information are really things you read or heard from Zildjian or Sabian.
But it's in their interest to mislead people into thinking that there is a good reason for doing only the little hammering they do, while the only real reason is that they prefer to make quantity over quality.

It's very typical for their marketing strategy that they try to have the customer associate their present-day lines of (as they misleadingly call it) "randomly" hammered cymbals with the old Turkish K Zildjians. In reality these cymbals have nothing in common, the manufacturing method and even sound are totally unrelated.

When Zildjian and even Sabian (who still do a little bit of hand-hammering) claim that their cymbals are still made by using the age-old methods of hammering, they are actually lying. Contrary to the old K's, the shaping of the cymbals is now entirely done by machine. In most cases (not all) the added amount of (top-)hammering is kept so small that the shape and tension are not thoroughly changed, so the need to also do bottom hammering (which wouldn't catch the eye of the customer anyway) can be avoided.

[Johan VDS]

A 7" Splash, hammered from a flat B20 bronze alloy disc.

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Splash_-from_flat_B20_bronze.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Splash_-from_flat_B20_bronze.jpg

[santi3hg]

Johan I would like to pose one question then, both Zildjian and Sabian claim to use a secret formula for cymbal making. Any idea what they mean, and does it make any difference for not hammering or lack of then?

[Johan VDS]

Johan I would like to pose one question then, both Zildjian and Sabian claim to use a secret formula for cymbal making. Any idea what they mean, and does it make any difference for not hammering or lack of then?Just about every maker of B20 cymbals claims to have a secret formula but simply getting a lab to analyse a sample would take away all "secrets".
I'm not sure if I understand the second part of your question but basically any alloy can be hammered or re-hammered.
Some variations of bronze are however less consistent and durable than others. Like Turkish or Chinese bronze is quite unpredictable compared to the better made and purer Zildjian/Sabian/Ufip B20. That's why I mainly prefer to work with the latter and not with Turkish or Chinese bronze (although that would of course be at least ten times cheaper).
People who buy expensive cymbals are not only entitled to getting well hammered cymbals but also to durable cymbals.

[santi3hg]

What makes the B20 bronze much more stable then the Turkish and Chinese bronzes then? This is very interesting.

Is B20 chemically strenghted in its molecular structure then?

Also, as drummerdave asks below me, how much for the 7"splash and shipping? Its beautiful. As well as the "Yell Bell"

[drummerdave]

A 7" Splash, hammered from a flat B20 bronze alloy disc.

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Splash_-from_flat_B20_bronze.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/7_Splash_-from_flat_B20_bronze.jpg

how much would it be to ship that baby to the us?

[Johan VDS]

What makes the B20 bronze much more stable then the Turkish and Chinese bronzes then?Zildjian/Sabian/Ufip B20, compared to B20 from Turkish or Chinese origin is simply made in a much more industrially evolved manner, with much more control on purity, proportion, furnace temperature and tempering, resulting in a much more consistent quality.


Also, as drummerdave asks below me, how much for the 7"splash and shipping? Its beautiful. As well as the "Yell Bell"I don't know if mentioning prices here is allowed, but you can find more info here:
http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11929

[santi3hg]

Shucks, I can't register for a account on that forum apparently. I'll shoot you an email then.

[Aaron]

Johan, we have a classified section where people sell stuff, so mentioning prices should be fine. Just out of interest, what cymbals do YOU play? What's your setup?

[Johan VDS]

Just out of interest, what cymbals do YOU play? What's your setup?Check this:
http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12117

[Johan VDS]

22" Dark Ride 2595 grams, re-created from a Paiste 3000 ride.

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/22_Dark_Ride_2595gr_-from_Paiste_3000.mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/22_Dark_Ride_2595gr_-from_Paiste_3000.jpg

[Johan VDS]

20" Light Complex Jazzride 1780 grams, re-created from a Paiste 2002 ride.

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Jazzride_1780gr_-from_Paiste_2002.mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Jazzride_1780gr_-from_Paiste_2002.jpg

[Plan B.]

Don't know if it's been asked but, ever think of selling any of these or have you already done so?

[Johan VDS]

You can find my emailaddress and more details about cymbal prices and modification rates here:
http://jvds.byethost15.com/MODIFICATION_RATES-PROCEDURE-CONTACT.htm

Many more pics and soundclips of cymbals on my webspace:
http://jvds.byethost15.com/

[White Rabbit]

Johan do you think you could turn this into a silky wall of wash kind of sound?

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/8207/ferit188im.jpg

[Johan VDS]

Yes, but since that one is chinese alloy it'll be a fairly trashy wall of wash.

[White Rabbit]

actually it is a little trashy.....


what do you think you could do with it?

its a good sound , not a cheap one though

[Johan VDS]

A dark, warm and trashy crash is possible.
Also an effectscymbal like a china, a reversed china or a Radial Trash (check my webspace for weird effectcymbals).

[Johan VDS]

18" Dry Reverse China, hammered from a Paiste 2002 18" Crash


SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/18_Dry_Reverse_China_-from_Paiste_2002_Crash.mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/4_SPLASHES-CHINAS-EFFECTCYMBALS/18_Dry_Reverse_China_-from_Paiste_2002_Crash.jpg

[Drum Phil]

I do like that china.

[Johan VDS]

Here are 2 turkish handmade cymbals I just re-created for a Belgian jazzdrummer. Each time you can hear a before and after clip. The idea was to make the cymbals more subtle, warm and sweet and better suited for acoustic jazz.


- Bosphorus Ferit Turk 20" ride:

http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Bosphorus_Ferit_Turk_20_before_and_after.mp3


- Agop Mel Lewis 21". This one had a very bad "barking seal" (a hollow gongy sound) stretching from the cup to halfway down the bow. That's completely gone now.

http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/Istanbul_Agop_Mel_Lewis_21_before_and_after.mp3

[Johan VDS]

Here's a set of cheap Sabian B8's which I just finished hammering for an Italian drummer into a set of (more or less) pop/rock oriented cymbals.

"Before and after" clips and pics here:
http://jvds.byethost15.com/3_BEFORE_AND_AFTER_MODIFICATION/AMATEUR_into_PROFESSIONAL/SABIAN_B8_complete_set/

[Plan B.]

I wish I sent you my B8's when I had them.

:lol:

[Johan VDS]

20" Light Jazzride 1850 grams, hammered from a Zildjian Avedis.


SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Jazzride_1850gr-_from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3]


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Jazzride_1850gr-_from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg

[Johan VDS]

16" Brash Crash, hammered from a Zildjian Avedis 16" Medium Crash.

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/16_Brash_Crash_from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3]


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/1_CRASHES_up_to_17_inch/16_Brash_Crash_from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg

[drummguy731]

I must compliment you, you do absolutely wonderful work, great job man :thumb:

[Imperial Star]

Johan i was wondering what you think of the cymbal companies like Istanbul Agop and Bosphorus, especially the Istanbul Agop sultan jazz ride as im considering getting it.

[Johan VDS]

Turkish companies produce fine cymbals, but the quality of both the hammerwork and the alloy is inconsistent. So it's quite impossible to say "the Istanbul Agop sultan jazz ride" is a good or bad cymbal. You have to go through a number of them and pick one out.
You also have to check them for playability of the whole surface. The not always very well considered hammering can lead to hollow sounding areas, so-called "barking seals", which can be very annoying.
Still, if you like really warm and complex sounds the Turkish are the ones to go for. Not so much the modern K Zildjians or Sabian HH's since these have been hammered much too little.

To me the biggest drawback of Turkish cymbals is the quality of the alloy. Some cymbals can be extremely fragile because of impurities, casting flaws or improper tempering. The flaws cannot always be seen.

Making excellent and pure bronze is where Zildjian, Sabian and Ufip excell in. That's why I prefer to use their cymbals as blanks and not "real" Turkish blanks like some other private cymbalsmiths do. Sabian and Zildjian will not sell any real blanks, so buying the cymbals is the only option. Of course buying finished cymbals is MUCH more expensive than buying blanks, so my margin of profit is extremely low. But I don't want to sell cymbals that risk premature breakage.

[Inkstar]

That's beautiful work Johan. I wish you were my best friend. :D

[Imperial Star]

thanks, great info!

[Johan VDS]

That's beautiful work Johan. I wish you were my best friend. :DBut you are !! :chug:

[SparBZ]

Impressed beyond my comprehension. The Headliner is just... Wow.

[Johan VDS]

20" Complex Flatride (2205 grams) hammered from a Zildjian Avedis.

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Flatride_2205gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Complex_Flatride_2205gr_-from_Zildjian_Avedis.jpg

[Dave*Grohl]

What could you do with my piece of **** Zildjian zxt 20" rock ride and 20" meinl marathon brass ride?

[Jred250]

I had a go at this hammering a few weeks ago. I have a 12'' splash cymbal I was trying to make sound more trashy... I would hit the cymbal and it would just dint in then pop strait back out and sound no different. Maybe I am doing something wrong lol

[Drum Phil]

You're sposed to heat it first.

[Jred250]

You're sposed to heat it first.

Yea, I thought you was. I suppose it all depends on the metal you are using though. I once saw quite a soft cymbal, I think if you were to put it on a sandbag and hit it gently it would probably leave a dent where you hit it. Its all dependant on how strong/thick the metal is I suppose, but without heating most cymbals would probably crack.

[Sharkey Boy]

Just... incredbly impressive - loving that complex flat ride

[Johan VDS]

What could you do with my piece of **** Zildjian zxt 20" rock ride and 20" meinl marathon brass ride?With the ZXT I can make just about make every possible type of professional cymbal. From a dark or complex ride to a crash or even a china or a unique effectscymbal. The alloy is B8 which has great potential.

The Marathon is worthless, it's brass. Only a few variations of brass sound anywhere near decent, but this is not one of them (neither are any of the big brands' brass lines).

O, and no heating prior to hammering.

[Aaron]

Would you work with chinese bronze? Ie. a Wuhan S Series Medium-Heavy Ride?

[Johan VDS]

What kind of sound modification do you expect ?

[Aaron]

I was just thinking about maybe turning a thicker oriental style ride into a ride/pang. Compliment the oriental trashiness but keep it minimal in a ride-type form. Something grittier than the average jazz ride, but not too barky and uncontrollable. Something to go with a 22" K Heavy Ride.

[Johan VDS]

That's indeed possible with a Wuhan or a Stagg.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 17" Perforation Trash which I made from a Zildjian Z Custom Crash.


The soundfile is a little distorted because of the very loud peak of the crash sound... Still this cymbal can speak very softly too and opens up at the slightest touch. It has a very wide dynamic range and can produce anything from a very quiet warm trashy wash to a fierce oriental crash. It's also very ride-able.

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/6_PERFORATION_cymbals/17_Perforation_Trash_-from_Zildjian_Z_Custom.mp3

http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/6_PERFORATION_cymbals/17_Perforation_Trash_-from_Zildjian_Z_Custom.jpg

[Jred250]

Hey Johan, is it possible you could work your magic with some of my cymbals? I am more than happy to give you a bit of cash to do so. Its just I have a mini-Splash 8'' and It sounds really new if you know what I mean, I am after more of a trashy kinda old sound.

I do have a few Paiste 101 series Brass cymbals but I wouldn't have thought you could do much to those with them being quite thick, and brass.
I do have a Super Zyn cymbal, no idea what its made of but its more flexible than the brass.

[Johan VDS]

Super Zyn is B20 alloy, so that's perfectly useful.

I should see the splash, perhaps you can mail me a pic ?

[Johan VDS]

20" Complex Ride 2215 grams -from Sabian AA

SOUNDFILE
http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_2215_gr_-from_Sabian_AA.mp3


http://users.telenet.be/cymbzdrumz/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/20_Complex_Ride_2215_gr_-from_Sabian_AA.jpg

[Banshee]

The link didn't work, but it looks sweet

[Aaron]

I wish i lived near you. I have heaps you could work on.

[Johan VDS]

Link should work now.

[Little Android Man]

i have a 12" wuhan splash, and i really dont like the sound. It cost me 13 bucks so ill be willing to experiment with it. what would be some basic equipment to do this with?

[Johan VDS]

A hammer and an anvil.
But Chineze bronze like Wuhan or Stagg is usually very hard and brittle so I suggest experimenting with cheap cymbals from brass or B8 first. These alloys are very soft and forgiving if you have no experience.

[Jezen]

Johan, write some lessons on how to get into hammering.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a Tony Williams-style 22" Complex "Nefertiti" Ride weighing 2425 grams.


SOUNDCLIP
http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/22_Complex_Ride_2425_gr.mp3

http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/5_NEFERTITI_RIDES_and_related/22_Complex_Ride_2425_gr.jpg

[Chippy569]

that one's pretty johan :D

[timehawk]

Hey Johan, really nice work. I remember when I first tried to hammer my B8 hi hat, not so successful. I didn't know at the time what the "dents" in the cymbals were, so I opted to try hammering with a wood block underneath instead of solid metal. VERY disastrous results lol.

I had a question, I don't know if you answered it yet. Does the Sabian Vault Artisan ride have as much hammering as they say it does? They make it sound like they really put tons of time in to one of those.

[Johan VDS]

Compared to fully handhammered cymbals like most of the turkish, Artisans are only very sparsely hammered.

[al98]

Hello, love your work.

Few questions:

1. Do you have to heat it before you hammer it?
2. Is there a type of hammer your suppose to use?
3. Do you have to lathe it?

Thanks! Keep up the good work!

[Retarded Chipple]

Hey dude I came across this 16" B8 crash (if you wanna know how, my thread is around here in the G+M section :rolleyes: )

http://www.filelodge.com/files/room48/1399997/10-12-06_1703.jpg
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room48/1399997/10-12-06_1713.jpg
http://www.filelodge.com/files/room48/1399997/10-12-06_1705.jpg

Just wondering what you suggest doing with it and how. I was thinking a bell/splash/mini china?

[Johan VDS]

Guys...you really have to go through the earlier posts in this thread, some of the same questions keep on returning...:smash:

[Retarded Chipple]

12 pages though :mad:

You should be proud that people keep turning to you for their cymbal questions!

[Aaron]

http://www.post.be/site/nl/applications/priceCalculator/packageInternational.html

This website seems to indicate that it is 52 euros to post from Australia to Belgium. I speak english, is there an english version Johan? If that is correct, I think I shall email you some photos of a cymbal to work on.

Also, you seem to be more fond of working with Zildjian and Sabian as opposed to Paiste. Is there something specific you don't like?

p.s. what could you make out of this:
http://www.musicgoround.com/gear/inventorydetails.asp?id=469162
a few accent-cymbals perhaps? lol.

[ofDooM]

It'll be years before i could send you my cymbals and payment :(

I have about 12 cymbals that I would love to get hammered by you.

EDIT: You should consider making an FAQ on the first post to reduce the amount of repeated questions.

[drummguy731]

Johan, what could you do with a really old Avedis series 16" heavy crash that's cracked. My school is in desperate need of new cymbals, but the district can't afford it, it'd need to be turned into an all around good crash cymbal, what would the cost be as well?

[Johan VDS]

Johan, what could you do with a really old Avedis series 16" heavy crash that's cracked. My school is in desperate need of new cymbals, but the district can't afford it, it'd need to be turned into an all around good crash cymbal, what would the cost be as well?If it's cracked it will have to be downsized, so it will be a small cymbal, perhaps too small for a decent crash. In that case you'd be better off with simply buying a second hand crash.


tttp://www.post.be/site/nl/applications/priceCalculator/packageInternational.html

This website seems to indicate that it is 52 euros to post from Australia to Belgium.I can ship airmail for 30.25 euro up to 5 kg to Australia (from Holland) so don't bother to look into the rates of the Belgian Post.

Also, you seem to be more fond of working with Zildjian and Sabian as opposed to Paiste. Is there something specific you don't like?That's because Paiste currently doesn't offer B20 alloy cymbals (which is my personal choice) but I hammer a lot of Paistes too for people who ask for it or send them to me.

p.s. what could you make out of this:
http://www.musicgoround.com/gear/inventorydetails.asp?id=469162
a few accent-cymbals perhaps? Probably yes, a few splashes or accents but I'd have to check this myself first to see if it's still useful. Normally I make my splashes from intact cymbals, not from damaged ones.

[Aaron]

I can ship airmail for 30.25 euro up to 5 kg to Australia (from Holland) so don't bother to look into the rates of the Belgian Post.
Is that 30.25 euro one-way or return?
How would I get it to you?

[Johan VDS]

That's one way (from me to you). You need to pay for your own shipping.

If you want to send me the cymbal, please contact me through email. You can find my emailaddress on my homepage:

http://jvds.byethost15.com/

There you can also find pics and soundclips of my collection of custom cymbals (which are for sale), as well as a lot of "before and after" soundclips of cymbals that people sent me for modification.

You'll also find some comments on my work there from people from across the globe whom I've modified cymbals for.

[Johan VDS]

Here's a 20" Light Complex Bright ride 1740 grams, hammered from a Ufip.

SOUNDCLIP
http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Bright_ride_1740gr.mp3


http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/20_Light_Complex_Bright_ride_1740gr.jpg








And an 18" Dark Crash, hammered from a Sabian AA El Sabor.

SOUNDCLIP
http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Dark_Crash_1425gr.mp3

http://jvds.byethost15.com/1_RECREATED_CUSTOM_CYMBALS/2_CRASHES_and_RIDES_18_inch_and_bigger/18_Dark_Crash_1425gr.jpg

[Aaron]

That's one way (from me to you). You need to pay for your own shipping.

If you want to send me the cymbal, please contact me through email. You can find my emailaddress on my homepage:

http://jvds.byethost15.com/

There you can also find pics and soundclips of my collection of custom cymbals (which are for sale), as well as a lot of "before and after" soundclips of cymbals that people sent me for modification.

You'll also find some comments on my work there from people from across the globe whom I've modified cymbals for.
Do you buy cymbals to modify for internationals? Is it cheaper for you to buy a Stagg or Wuhan pie and tranform that and post one-way than for me to send you something, you modify, and send back?

[iron_bru_32]

can you please exsplain what equipment is needed and how to do it if possible plaes but mainly the tools

[Johan VDS]

The main tools are simply a few hammers, an anvil and a lathe, please check the earlier posts in this thread or just go to the websites of Istanbul or Bosphorus to see pics.

Do you buy cymbals to modify for internationals? Is it cheaper for you to buy a Stagg or Wuhan pie and tranform that and post one-way than for me to send you something, you modify, and send back?If you can't afford to buy one of my custom cymbals, I think you'd better send your cymbal to me, because a decent new Stagg cymbal in Belgium will cost as much as a second hand Avedis Zildjian or Sabian AA.
Anyway, if you have the option to send me a Zildjian, Sabian or Ufip B20 alloy cymbal, that would be much better than Stagg or Wuhan!
A Sabian XS20 is a PERFECT blank to create a great cymbal because it is made from first grade B20 bronze, just like the expensive lines.

You can now see and hear my cymbals on:

http://johancymbals.fr.nf/


:smash: :smash: :smash:

[fishbulb]

I wasn't an active member when you firs tposted this thread, maybe i should read it since i'm really curious.

Good job getting where you are right now and good luck in the future, man!

[Inkstar]

Do you make a living out of this, Johan? It's so awesome.

[Aaron]

I have two crashes; An 18" Stagg SH Medium Crash and a 20" Paiste Dimensions Medium Raw Crash; both of which I'm not happy with and would love for you to turn into jazz rides. Are these two models good enough alloy for you to work on? I shall email you shortly if they are.

[Johan VDS]

I can hammer them both into jazzy cymbals, yes.

Do you make a living out of thisI wish I could. But I have spent a fortune on buying so many cymbals to hammer that I'll be in the red for many years to come.

[MisurCanavi]

Would you be able to turn either a Zildjian ZXT 16" Crash or a Sabian B8PRO 16" Crash into fast crashes?

[Aaron]

What do you think of the B12 Bronze Alloy?

[drummguy731]

Hey Johan, what could you do with some old ZBT's? My 18" has a little crack in it, maybe a centimeter long. Sizes are 16" and 18" Crashes, 14" Hats, 20" ride. I'd like the sounds to be very flexible, maybe able to be used in both rock and jazz, maybe going towards jazz a little bit.