PNWI Community Thread version 3.0 (KEEP REFRIGERATED AT ALL TIMES)

[Iskandar]

Of course not. Sexism is funnier.

[Mr. Ron]

(because most of it is true!)


<_<

[1338 h4x0r]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nMqX1RS8-Q

An Arabic guy singing the Shaft theme

lol

win

[Mr. Ron]

lol wtf

[1338 h4x0r]

This is how I found out about it

http://www.last.fm/listen/globaltags/arabic%20pop#pane=webRadioPlayer&station=%252Flisten%252Fglobaltags%252Farabic%2520 pop

Malik - Shaft came on and I looked him up on YouTube

[gregulus]

Erm dude, take it from someone who lives around them: they are common.
Anecdotal evidence, Steve.

Actually Iceland and Germany spend more than us. We are inefficient, this I will give you, but then what makes you think we will suddenly get more efficient? Baradk Obama has no clue what he is doing and efficiency is a pipe dream in his white house. Corruption and waste is endemic. The projections have shown that we would spend far more money on national health care even than we are spending now.

What about places like Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain and Canada? You also seem to be wrong about Germany:

http://i43.tinypic.com/14tlmxg.png

This was taken from a study done by the Commonwealth Fund. Many of the measures that Obama wants to implement such as evidence-driven medicine work more efficiently not only in places with universal health care, but also at some of the most renowned hospitals in the U.S. (e.g. the Mayo Clinic).

To quote a post I made a few pages back:
The American health care system is, by and large, driven by a "that's what we do here" methodology, as opposed to one driven by data. The Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice have recently published studies indicating that patients in higher-spending areas get more unnecessary tests and spend more time in the hospital than patients in lower-spending areas but with absolutely no change in the outcome. The high prices of health care here are due to the desire to make profit, indicated by lobbyists fighting like hell against any health care reform and the fee-for-service structure of many hospitals. Lobbyists recently pushed a bill designed to limit "comparative-effectiveness research," that would empirically show which treatments are the most effective for certain diseases. Doctors get paid more if they do more things to you and hospitals make more the longer you stay, so the incentive to really used research-driven medicine isn't there. In essence, Americans spend more money annually on tests and procedures that are unnecessary.

An example of how our health care system should run is the Mayo Clinic. Compared with the UCLA Medical Center, the Mayo Clinic spent $40,410 less per patient, had 28.9 less physician visits per patient and patients spent 6.5 less days in the hospital at Mayo than UCLA. The Mayo Clinic has electronic records (a staple of the evil "socialist" health care systems) which promote efficiency and, perhaps most importantly, has teams of doctors that work together so that things like duplicate tests are minimized. Another interesting part of Mayo's organization is their reliance on evidence-based medicine. Unfortunately, it's unclear if Mayo can continue this way of practicing medicine with the costs of health care in the United States being what they are.

[Mr. Ron]

the US already has socialized medicine its called medicare and Mediaid.

[1338 h4x0r]

lol

[Mr. Ron]

!!!!

[gregulus]

the US already has socialized medicine its called medicare and Mediaid.

Yeah. Everyone is eligible for that. Also, the increasing prices of medical treatment aren't hurting those two things at all.

[YDtoad]

Anecdotal evidence, Steve.

And your evidence is...???

I'll check out the other stuff later.

[gregulus]

And your evidence is...???

I'll check out the other stuff later.

http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/myths.html

[Mr. Ron]

Yeah. Everyone is eligible for that. Also, the increasing prices of medical treatment aren't hurting those two things at all.
then why expand it

[YDtoad]

http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/myths.html

deceptive and fallacious arguments from a biased source.

[1338 h4x0r]

lol

I like how Steve just dismissed numbers out of hand and then doesn't follow up with a rebuttal

[beso negro]

the US already has socialized medicine its called medicare and Mediaid.

yea they suck almost as much as the ponzi scheme that is social security

[gregulus]

then why expand it

Part of the plan is to implement changes so that the entirety of the health care system runs essentially like the Mayo Clinic and to eliminate much of the administrative and bureaucratic processes that bog down our system so much.

I don't mean this as a slight at you, but it seems like you just hate the idea of universal health care without completely understanding the potential benefits of it. I've posted a few statistics already in this thread showing that universal health care sytems appear to be much better than our own.

[Mr. Ron]

Part of the plan is to implement changes so that the entirety of the health care system runs essentially like the Mayo Clinic and to eliminate much of the administrative and bureaucratic processes that bog down our system so much. I can't believe you hate something so much without understanding it, Ron.
my main beef with it is that people actually think health care is a right. It isn't.

[gregulus]

deceptive and fallacious arguments from a biased source.

Statistics are deceptive and fallacious? Don't just dismiss the numbers because they're contradictory to your ideas of how things are, Steve.

[gregulus]

my main beef with it is that people actually think health care is a right. It isn't.

I don't really see how that matters when you will not only benefit yourself from universal health care, you will probably end up paying less for health care from your taxes than you do now.

"I don't care if a system is better and will cost me less. It's the principle of the thing!"

[cobert]

I usually check in here expecting just chit chat about being bros but it always turns political. WHATEVER MAN WHATEVER.

yea they suck almost as much as the ponzi scheme that is social security

As much as I <3 socialism, "Ponzi Scheme" is probably the proper term to describe the way that social security has been run. I want social security to exist, and I want it to allow certain people to have a comfortable living, but the way that it was executed was terrible and allowed a few people to benefit A LOT without paying much in at all.

[Mr. Ron]

I don't really see how that matters when you will not only benefit yourself from universal health care, you will probably end up paying less for health care from your taxes than you do now.

"I don't care if a system is better and will cost me less. It's the principle of the thing!"
from what I understand its just more taxes on me. I live in NY state. Why would I want more taxes when I live in THE most taxing state in the union?


Plus I just don't think its the government's role to take care of your medical expenses.

[cobert]

deceptive and fallacious arguments from a biased source.

This makes you sound crazy.

EDIT: Beaten.

[gregulus]

from what I understand its just more taxes on me. I live in NY state. Why would I want more taxes when I live in THE most taxing state in the union?


Plus I just don't think its the government's role to take care of your medical expenses.

The United States spends more money than most other industrialized nations already due to the inefficient, profit-driven system currently in place. I don't know why you think you will be taxed any more than you already are. A few changes in the health care system will pay for itself rather quickly. I don't foresee any need to take out more taxes.

[Mr. Ron]

I'll have to read into it more. All I know is that the people I know who are pharmacists and Doctors don't like it themselves.

[1338 h4x0r]

from what I understand its just more taxes on me. I live in NY state. Why would I want more taxes when I live in THE most taxing state in the union?

Your taxes are not being spent efficiently

Plus I just don't think its the government's role to take care of your medical expenses.

Public health is as old as the Roman Empire and it's a good idea ...... they needed it

[gregulus]

I'll have to read into it more. All I know is that the people I know who are pharmacists and Doctors don't like it themselves.

http://in.reuters.com/article/health/idINN3143203520080331

That's not what this implies.

[1338 h4x0r]

WHO health care rankings down to US


France
Italy
San Marino
Andorra
Malta
Singapore
Spain
Oman
Austria
Japan
Norway
Portugal
Monaco
Greece
Iceland
Luxembourg
Netherlands
United Kingdom
Ireland
Switzerland
Belgium
Colombia
Sweden
Cyprus
Germany
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Israel
Morocco
Canada
Finland
Australia
Chile
Denmark
Dominica
Costa Rica
United States of America

[Mr. Ron]

won't making people use a single payer system make them not be able to have a personal patient-doctor trust?


WHO health care rankings down to US


France
Italy
San Marino
Andorra
Malta
Singapore
Spain
Oman
Austria
Japan
Norway
Portugal
Monaco
Greece
Iceland
Luxembourg
Netherlands
United Kingdom
Ireland
Switzerland
Belgium
Colombia
Sweden
Cyprus
Germany
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Israel
Morocco
Canada
Finland
Australia
Chile
Denmark
Dominica
Costa Rica
United States of America


what aspect of the health care system does this represent, though? its vague.

[1338 h4x0r]

Overall ranking

There are a handful of superior qualities in the current US health care system (economically speaking), which libertarians tend to harp on. That is to say: if you have a lot of money, you don't have to worry

Overall, it's not that good

[gregulus]

won't making people use a single payer system make them not be able to have a personal patient-doctor trust?
Not anymore than our system does.

[Mr. Ron]

Like I said, I have to do more research. However I don't see whats wrong with me just having a private doctor.

[1338 h4x0r]

You can, but that's not to say anything about the rights of others

[Mr. Ron]

meh

[cobert]

One of the qualities that the WHO ranks healthcare systems on is availability and equity of distribution so it favors universal healthcare.

I still support Universal Healthcare, it just bothers me when that statistic is brought up to talk about HOW BAD EVIL AMERIKKKAN HEALTHCARE IS.

[1338 h4x0r]

What's wrong with that

[gregulus]

Overall ranking

There are a handful of superior qualities in the current US health care system (economically speaking), which libertarians tend to harp on. That is to say: if you have a lot of money, you don't have to worry

Overall, it's not that good

This true. I have a study that indicates that the U.S. is actually rather good in providing preventative care* compared to other countries but falls behind in areas like efficiency, safe care, care of patients with chronic illnesses, coordinated care, etc.

* Most significantly in the number of women who get pap scans. The other looked at examples were fairly equal between the top ranking countries.

This is a great study comparing health care systems of the U.S., the U.K., New Zealand, Australia, Germany and Canada.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2007/May/Mirror--Mirror-on-the-Wall--An-International-Update-on-the-Comparative-Performance-of-American-Healt.aspx

[Mr. Ron]

ok honestly, every system has flaws. What inefficiencies and flaws would you say a universal health care system would bring to the table?

[gregulus]

ok honestly, every system has flaws. What inefficiencies and flaws would you say a universal health care system would bring to the table?

It's hard to say what in general, as no universal health care system is the exact same. As I said, though, the U.S. ranks high in preventative care but is exceeded in most cases in safe care, treatment of chronic illnesses, coordinated care*, "patient-centered" care*, efficiency, accessibility, etc.

* Below other countries but above Canada (sorry Iskandar).

[Smokey D]

The WH said it would already be working. Their silly projections had the stimulated economy's unemployment rate below 7% at this very point. Instead, it is above 9 and destined to hit 10. It failed, and it is not too early to make that judgment (Warren Buffet made the exact same judgment). Obama could've taken John McCain's idea, which was pure economic stimulus, a drop in the corporate tax rate, and no pork, but he let Nancy Pelosi destroy the bill. Failure of leadership.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8117763.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8119013.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8117138.stm

Just saying.

What about places like Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain and Canada? You also seem to be wrong about Germany:

I do wanna point out that NZ does not, strictly speaking, have universal healthcare and there are some delays in important sectors, especially radiography and other radiation treatments.

Whether that's better or worse than the US, where something like 50 million people don't have health insurance (which, as I understand it, is pretty much a sine qua non of treatment), I dunno.

ok honestly, every system has flaws. What inefficiencies and flaws would you say a universal health care system would bring to the table?

That's completely irrelevant if its flaws and inefficiencies are less bad than the system currently in place. If something's bad, you don't leave it in place because its replacement isn't perfect.

[cobert]

What's wrong with that

If it were based only on quality, America wouldn't be so far down on the list. I would be willing, however, to sacrifice some quality if it meant we could give every health care and that it would save the country a ton of money.

Top quality healthcare is only available to a small number of people anyways, so our 'quality' healthcare isn't really readily available.

[Mr. Ron]

would I be able to keep my private doctor as an option in such a system?

[cobert]

Sure.

I actually have no idea where this myth came from.

[gregulus]

I do wanna point out that NZ does not, strictly speaking, have universal healthcare and there are some delays in important sectors, especially radiography and other radiation treatments.

I'm not sure that Obama is proposing a truly universal plan either. Doesn't the government of New Zealand subsidize a good portion of the cost, though?

[Smokey D]

I'm not sure that Obama is proposing a truly universal plan either. Doesn't the government of New Zealand subsidize a good portion of the cost, though?

Yeah. Except we kind of have a bit of a schizophrenic relationship with it. During the 1980s, NZ shifted from one of the most protectionist, state controlled economies in the western world to probably the most liberal. Ever since, every time there has been a change in government, there has been a shift in policy regarding privatisation/nationalisation. So in the 1980s and 1990s, the government privatised all the hospitals (there may still have been a subsidy, I don't remember) and then from 1999 until now the system has essentially been nationalised. This is in comparison to Europe, where both sides of the political spectrum strongly support a national healthcare system.

I imagine this fluctuation in policy has probably contributed to some of the inefficiencies in the NZ system at least as much as the substantive content of either policy.

[1338 h4x0r]

If it were based only on quality, America wouldn't be so far down on the list. I would be willing, however, to sacrifice some quality if it meant we could give every health care and that it would save the country a ton of money.

That is the definition of utilitarianism: the greatest good, for the greatest number of people

[Mr. Ron]

ewwwwww

[1338 h4x0r]

What's wrong with utilitarianism?

I mean it doesn't to be mind-numbing lower utilitarianism as in Brave New World

[Mr. Ron]

there's no such thing as one good for all.

[Smokey D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commensurability_(ethics)

Although you can probably apply utilitarian logic to healthcare because health outcomes are more or less commensurable.

[gregulus]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2lks853.png

Interesting figure.

[Smokey D]

Is the ranking 1 good or bad.

[gregulus]

Is the ranking 1 good or bad.

It's the best, making 6 the worst.

[Iskandar]

there's no such thing as one good for all.That's not what he said.

Utilitarianism is logical.

[Iskandar]

It's the best, making 6 the worst.I'm sorry. Canada's healthcare is not by any means the best in the Anglosphere but I refuse to believe it's that shitty.

[gregulus]

I'm sorry. Canada's healthcare is not by any means the best in the Anglosphere but I refuse to believe it's that shitty.


Read the article (the link was posted a few posts up). If you disagree with the findings, tell us why.

It's better than America's. Not by a lot, though.

[Smokey D]

That's not what he said.

Utilitarianism is logical.

Is beauty better than truth?

[Mr. Ron]

Truth is beautiful, though.

[Iskandar]

Is beauty better than truth?Beauty is truth.

[Smokey D]

Michelangelo's David vs 2+2 = 4. What is better?

Beauty is truth.

What does that even mean. I mean, it's a cute cliche but it doesn't really mean anything.

[gregulus]

Michelangelo's David vs 2+2 = 4. What is better?



What does that even mean. I mean, it's a cute cliche but it doesn't really mean anything.

David is incredible. But math is awesome. CONUNDRUM!

[Iskandar]

It's better than America's. Not by a lot, though.Okay I can agree with that.

I'm sort of surprised to see the UK ranked so highly though. I thought Britons generally had a bad opinion of the NHS. They complain about it far more than Canadians do. Is it just the expense?
won't making people use a single payer system make them not be able to have a personal patient-doctor trust?
No what. I've had the same doctor since I was a baby.

[gregulus]

Okay I can agree with that.

I'm sort of surprised to see the UK ranked so highly though. I thought Britons generally had a bad opinion of the NHS. They complain about it far more than Canadians do. Is it just the expense?

Weird. A lot of the data used in the study was taken directly from patients. They also gathered data from doctors within each system.

[Smokey D]

won't making people use a single payer system make them not be able to have a personal patient-doctor trust?

It's not like it converts doctors into robots or anything. Why would you not be able to have the same doctor?

[Iskandar]

Michelangelo's David vs 2+2 = 4. What is better?What does this have to do with utilitarianism?
What does that even mean. I mean, it's a cute cliche but it doesn't really mean anything.It's a quote from Keats.

[Mr. Ron]

idk I think its simple. What is "true" is what is beautiful.

[Smokey D]

What does this have to do with utilitarianism?

Because 'pleasure' or 'benefit' or utillity to is just as incommensurable with truth, justice, beauty, love or whatever as they are with each other. At the most, it allows us to compare events after the fact (although even that's debatable) and tells us nothing about how we ought to act.

What is "true" is what is beautiful

So is something ugly untrue?

And you run the risk of conflating two separate concepts.

[Aaron]

I find pleasure in structure and improvement of efficiency, Smokey D. Where do I fall?

[Smokey D]

I find pleasure in structure and improvement of efficiency, Smokey D. Where do I fall?

I dunno. Efficiency of what?

[Iskandar]

Because 'pleasure' or 'benefit' or utillity to is just as incommensurable with truth, justice, beauty, love or whatever as they are with each other. At the most, it allows us to compare events after the fact (although even that's debatable) and tells us nothing about how we ought to act.No you're wrong.

What benefits the greatest number of people is entirely subjective and thus the only way to figure out what they think is to consult them.

Consider democracy: we let people choose the candidate they think will be the best whether he actually is or not (if something as personal as political preferences can be said to be "better" than anyone else's).

[Mr. Ron]

No you're wrong.

What benefits the greatest number of people is entirely subjective and thus the only way to figure out what they think is to consult them.

Consider democracy: we let people choose the candidate they think will be the best whether he actually is or not (if something as personal as political preferences can be said to be "better" than anyone else's).

thats terrible

[Iskandar]

thats terribleI just explained that "better" is subjective. Maybe some people want a genocidal dictator. They think I'm wrong as much as I think they're wrong.

The point is that people pick the candidate they think will be best because nobody else is qualified to decide that for them.

[Mr. Ron]

yeah but if your voter base is driven by emotion and a lack of education about politics then how is that even meaningful?

[Iskandar]

yeah but if your voter base is driven by emotion and a lack of education about politics then how is that even meaningful?I never said it was.

I don't think you can make statements like that about the voting public because there is no such thing as the average voter.

[Smokey D]

No you're wrong.

What benefits the greatest number of people is entirely subjective and thus the only way to figure out what they think is to consult them.

Well, although I would dispute what benefits the greatest number is necessarily subjective, I'd say that what you're saying is a consequence of non-utilitarian thinking, not utilitarianism.

I might say that love, truth, justice, beauty, life are incommensurable 'basic goods' of society. There is no way I can measure the benefit of love in terms of justice, for example. They are both fundamentally good. If we accept this proposition, then we can say that there is no single rationalising calculus for all human activity, and thus we should not try to tell people how to live their lives. There is no point in trying to tell people that love brings more benefit than justice, or beauty brings more benefit than truth. Different people will have different priorities, but I dispute that you can fit them into one schema of human benefit. The good life isn't achieved by abstract maximal benefit but by the combination of maximal benefits flowing from different activities.


Consider democracy: we let people choose the candidate they think will be the best whether he actually is or not (if something as personal as political preferences can be said to be "better" than anyone else's).

I don't really see what that has to do with utilitarianism or anything at all.

[McP3000]

yeah but if your voter base is driven by emotion and a lack of education about politics then how is that even meaningful?
See: American Politics

[Iskandar]

Well, although I would dispute what benefits the greatest number is necessarily subjective, I'd say that what you're saying is a consequence of non-utilitarian thinking, not utilitarianism.

I might say that love, truth, justice, beauty, life are incommensurable 'basic goods' of society. There is no way I can measure the benefit of love in terms of justice, for example. They are both fundamentally good. If we accept this proposition, then we can say that there is no single rationalising calculus for all human activity, and thus we should not try to tell people how to live their lives. There is no point in trying to tell people that love brings more benefit than justice, or beauty brings more benefit than truth. Different people will have different priorities, but I dispute that you can fit them into one schema of human benefit. The good life isn't achieved by abstract maximal benefit but by the combination of maximal benefits flowing from different activities.This is sort of what I've been saying all along, that good is subjective.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to deliver the most utility to every person we can.

[Smokey D]

You still have to show how you can measure the varying parts of the good life according to a single measure.

[McP3000]

he has the scandinavian happy scale dont worry smokey

[Iskandar]

Sitting at the window, staring at a dead tree and contemplating past regrets.
You still have to show how you can measure the varying parts of the good life according to a single measure.No you.

[Mr. Ron]

Having regrets is silly!

[Iskandar]

I try to tell myself that, but the specters of the past always rise up to haunt me whilst in my cups.

[YDtoad]

lol

I like how Steve just dismissed numbers out of hand and then doesn't follow up with a rebuttal

No see anyone can clearly see what BS they're spouting.

Eg:
"The belief that welfare provides a disincentive to work by providing a well-paying "free ride" that enables recipients, stereotyped as "Cadillac queens," to purchase extravagant items with their benefits is another myth. In reality, recipients live considerably below the poverty threshold. Despite increased program spending, the average monthly family benefit, measured in 1995 dollars, fell from $713 in 1970 to $377 in 1995, a 47 percent drop. In 26 states, AFDC benefits alone fell 64 percent short of the 1996 poverty guidelines, and the addition of food stamps only reduced this gap to 35 percent (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996).

Despite the ready availability of facts, myths about welfare continue to be widespread. The media contributes to this lack of information. The media helps shape public perceptions about welfare recipients. The way in which a topic is reported can turn a neutral reader into an opinionated reader and can greatly influence public opinion. Although in an analysis of articles published in 10 major newspapers from January 1997 to April 1997, the tone was generally sympathetic to the poor, actual research and facts to counter myths were generally lacking (Wyche & Mattern, 1997)."

Two words: UNDERGROUND ECONOMY.

The site is worthless. Go into any housing project and you'll see big new cars, welfare people wearing designer clothing, etc. because abuse is rampant. Anyone not in an ivory tower understands that.

[Smokey D]

There is no doubt the system is abused. THe question is whether the abuse is as rampant and as bad as you say it is. You can't just say 'go into a project'.

PS since when have you ever been in a housing project.

[Iskandar]

Wait, anecdotal evidence is better than facts now? In that case, I'd like to inform everyone that I have a toilet of solid gold.

[Pop music sucks]

Is that as good as a toilet of solid gold?

[Iskandar]

What.

[Pop music sucks]

I have a toliet of solid gold.Huh?

[gregulus]

No see anyone can clearly see what BS they're spouting.

Eg:
"The belief that welfare provides a disincentive to work by providing a well-paying "free ride" that enables recipients, stereotyped as "Cadillac queens," to purchase extravagant items with their benefits is another myth. In reality, recipients live considerably below the poverty threshold. Despite increased program spending, the average monthly family benefit, measured in 1995 dollars, fell from $713 in 1970 to $377 in 1995, a 47 percent drop. In 26 states, AFDC benefits alone fell 64 percent short of the 1996 poverty guidelines, and the addition of food stamps only reduced this gap to 35 percent (Staff of House Committee on Ways and Means, 1996).

Despite the ready availability of facts, myths about welfare continue to be widespread. The media contributes to this lack of information. The media helps shape public perceptions about welfare recipients. The way in which a topic is reported can turn a neutral reader into an opinionated reader and can greatly influence public opinion. Although in an analysis of articles published in 10 major newspapers from January 1997 to April 1997, the tone was generally sympathetic to the poor, actual research and facts to counter myths were generally lacking (Wyche & Mattern, 1997)."

Two words: UNDERGROUND ECONOMY.

The site is worthless. Go into any housing project and you'll see big new cars, welfare people wearing designer clothing, etc. because abuse is rampant. Anyone not in an ivory tower understands that.

Anecdotal evidence, Steve.

[YDtoad]

Anecdotal evidence, Steve.

vs mindless talking points...
"yes, they're not scamming the system--because look, they say they're not scamming the system!"

[gregulus]

vs mindless talking points...
"yes, they're not scamming the system--because look, they say they're not scamming the system!"

They provide statistics, Steve. Your only rebuttal is "go into a housing project, you'll see that they're wrong." Unfortunately for you, statistics speak louder than your anecdotal nonsense. You act is if every apartment in a housing project will have a 2009 Escalade with 26'' wheels in front of it. Get real.

No one is denying that welfare abuse happens. What is being denied is your apparent claim that a large portion of those on welfare do abuse the system.

[Iskandar]

Steve just got owned. Not that it was hard. I expected better of him, actually.
Huh?Oh no a minor spelling mistake.

Or would you prefer I called it an error?

[Freiheit]

A bottle in the wake.
Send a message to man,
that I have gone away.

[Stig Caraveo]

, Steve.

[Pop music sucks]

Oh no a minor spelling mistake.

Or would you prefer I called it an error?There wasn't much else to speak of when it was posted. Sort of (Joe) bidin' time until something else came along.

[Iskandar]

If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all.

[Freiheit]

I dislike that phrase. Sometimes people need to be told off for their own good.

[Iskandar]

I know. It's just a thought-terminating cliche.

[Freiheit]

It takes two to tango!

[Iskandar]

Well, if you're not with me, you're against me.

[Freiheit]

You don't think I'm pretty anymore!

[Iskandar]

We have to do something. This is something.

[Pop music sucks]

You're something.

[Iskandar]

Something else.

[1338 h4x0r]

So I have a tudou account and I get away with posting Suicide Commando - One Nation Under God (Anti US Mix) but some administrator tells me they might amend or delete my "Why Do People Laugh at Creationists?" posting because of politically sensitive content

I hate China

[Smokey D]

What is tudou.

[McP3000]

its the title of a list of things you have tudou today

[1338 h4x0r]

close but "dou" has a dipthong, i.e., pronounced "doh-ooh" very quickly, with a falling tone

What is tudou.

土豆 literally means potato, but it's a site similar to youtube, which, in some respects, is shaping up to be at least technically superior to it. tudou's high quality format is H.264, which is more convenient than regular mp4, in terms of size, and I like how you can upload music files without having to make a dumb one frame video

However there is too much censorship bullshit and it's grossly inconsistent, too. They let me get away with some politically risque images but not others. (And I don't remember the Godsend video having Tiananmen or Tibet images, just lots of disturbing stock footage, including generic protest films.)

http://www.tudou.com/home/hammerkrieg

[Smokey D]

Sounds pretty dumb. Chinese people make me giggle sometimes, I swear.

[1338 h4x0r]

Actually, a lot of urban Chinese people are just like Americans

(Which is why I made up my mind I don't want to live in the PRC permanently)

But what part did you think was dumb? The fact that the site's name means "potato"? Or the inconsistent censorship? Those points aside, tudou is technically a very good site. You can see a lot of copyrighted films in high quality there, like Blade Runner. In fact they already serve more data every day than youtube, and as a Sinophone Westerner on tudou, I'm doing my part to bring Chinese Internet users hatred, alienation, distrust, cynicism, and, ultimately, nihilistic despair

[McP3000]

close but "dou" has a dipthong, i.e., pronounced "doh-ooh" very quickly, with a falling tone
............................................______ __
....................................,.-‘”...................``~.,
.............................,.-”...................................“-.,
.........................,/...............................................”:,
.....................,?........................... ...........................,
.................../.................................................. .........,}
................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..}
.............../.................................................. .,:”........./
..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../
............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`..... ..._/
..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}
...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../
...,,,___.`~,......“~.,....................`.....} ............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”
............/.`~,......`-...................................../
.............`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....,__
,,_..........}.>-._...................................|............ ..`=~-,
.....`=~-,__......`,.................................
...................`=~-,,.,...............................
................................`:,,.............. .............`..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_......... .._,-%.......`
...................................,

[Light Flantastic]

it's a site similar to youtube, which, in some respects, is shaping up to be at least technically superior to it. tudou's high quality format is H.264, which is more convenient than regular mp4, in terms of size


youtube uses h.264 son

and tudou is terrible

[Iskandar]

Sounds pretty dumb. Chinese people make me giggle sometimes, I swear.They just confuse me sometimes.

Their culture is different and stuff.

[1338 h4x0r]

youtube uses h.264 son

ah ok, tudou was 1st to do so though

and tudou is terrible

Why is it terrible

[Smokey D]

The fact that the site's name means "potato"? Or the inconsistent censorship?

The whole approach of Chinese people towards the issue of censorship and the primacy of the state freaks me out. I suppose Americans are pretty similar but at least the government isn't so flagrant about curtailing free speech.

[1338 h4x0r]

loooooooooool almost nobody wants that **** but some government officials and dragon lady ****s who think the Qin dynasty was on the right track

[Smokey D]

I dunno, whenever I read comments posted by Chinese people on BBC and stuff, it's virtually always 'censorship isn't so bad'. I dunno if that's because the government is screening who can post on western websites.

[Light Flantastic]

idk people in every country are somewhat indoctrinated

like in the west school will teach you democracy is the pinnacle of all human achievement

[1338 h4x0r]

I dunno, whenever I read comments posted by Chinese people on BBC and stuff, it's virtually always 'censorship isn't so bad'. I dunno if that's because the government is screening who can post on western websites.

That's because the rabid ****s come out of the woodwork for these occasions

I think much less people object to the fact that I am trying to circumvent censorship than the fact that I am largely indifferent to my filial relationship

[Smokey D]

You hate your dad or something?

[1338 h4x0r]

No, I just don't like how my mother got upset when I expressed doubt towards religion and how she tried to insist I live a certain way. She's backed off but I still harbor some resentment from earlier. Most reasonable people would resent trying to be dragged into some dumb Jesus **** if they knew how much better science is

Furthermore I don't believe the strong extended family is necessary for the functioning of a modern society, and its dissolution may even alleviate graft and corruption (especially in the case of China). You can imagine I've taken a lot of **** for this viewpoint

[Light Flantastic]

you're an individualist in denial

[Iskandar]

Chris has a daddy complex.

[Stig Caraveo]

idk people in every country are somewhat indoctrinated

like in the west school will teach you democracy is the pinnacle of all human achievement

hmmm i'm not sure that i've been taught this. and i'm not sure if you can call it indoctrination, since most people in the west believe this anyways and teachers can't help but show a little of their beliefs in their classroom, no matter how hard they try to be impartial,

[1338 h4x0r]

Chris has a daddy complex.

I don't believe in psychoanalysis, it's unscientific hogwash that makes psychology look bad

hmmm i'm not sure that i've been taught this. and i'm not sure if you can call it indoctrination, since most people in the west believe this anyways and teachers can't help but show a little of their beliefs in their classroom, no matter how hard they try to be impartial,

You have to believe something

If you say you believe nothing, you are professing a belief of some kind, and so are saying something like "All Cretans are liars" (as said by a Cretan)

you're an individualist in denial

No, I'm not denying I'm an individualist

[Iskandar]

I'm an individualist who likes to use the state for some things.

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm an individualist who thinks that being deprived of some of my money isn't much of a bar to being an individual, whereas leaving the corporation totally unfettered certainly is

[pedro durruti]

I don't believe in psychoanalysis, it's unscientific hogwash that makes psychology look bad

Whatever you say about psychoanalysis, freud and etc have made important advances in the field, and psychoanalysis as a process is an important tool in liberating the consciousness

[1338 h4x0r]

Whatever you say about psychoanalysis, freud and etc have made important advances in the field, and psychoanalysis as a process is an important tool in liberating the consciousness

How so

Psychoanalysis is 100% empirically untenable bullshit

I don't adhere to behaviorism either, but it's still a hell of a lot better than psychoanalysis, and helped put the field of psychology on the right track

I'm betting you just want an excuse to make everything about the penis

[pedro durruti]

psychoanalysis is not all about freud's absurd theories of oedipus complex and all that nonsense, freud was a revolutionary, though he was wrong in a huge number of ways. you also have to understand that he came out of the victorian age, which means he was largely suppressed himself and so also his ideas. to say psychoanalysis was 100% nonsense is absurd because it has an extremely large pull on psychology, not now that much but it does, and it certainly has impacted largely (in a positive way) its history.

psychoanalysis as a process can't even be fully critiqued anyways. psychoanalysis was a patient to doctor interaction. it was about free association, and letting go with your feelings. it's still used in psychoanalysis today in patient to doctor encounters and every day life.

psychology is a touchy subject, but it has many good ideas, no matter how hollowed out and culturally contrived they can be.

[1338 h4x0r]

Psychoanalysis is empirically untenable

[pedro durruti]

'analyzing a psyche' is empirically untenable"

i dont even know what that means

[Iskandar]

i dont even know what that meansNot unlike your posts.

[pedro durruti]

you're a hypocrite

[Iskandar]

I'd rather be a hypocrite than spout nonsensical drivel.

[pedro durruti]

you'd rather be hitler than the retards he killed?

[Iskandar]

spout nonsensical drivel.Hint: You're doing it right now.

[pedro durruti]

zeig heil

what does it matter? i'm doing it in the community thread
community! isn't that something we ought to provide?

[Iskandar]

Problem is you do it in every thread.

[pedro durruti]

the problem is that you don't understand the nature of what "incomprehension" really is. how do you know that your assessments of nonsense are really the way it really is? the way i really am? am i making nonsensical drivel right now? or am i spewing the truth?

[pedro durruti]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/EnthanasiePropaganda.jpg


schadenfreude

[1338 h4x0r]

The idea that there is any such thing as "truth" reflects phallocentric masculine thinking

[Iskandar]

Not my fault I don't understand you. If I can't, your attempt at communication has failed. Furthermore, stop trying to be all postmodern. It's annoying.

[pedro durruti]

The idea that there is any such thing as "truth" reflects phallocentric masculine thinking
ha ha
no the idea that there isnt any such thing as truth is mallocentric ****brick thinking
Not my fault I don't understand you. If I can't, your attempt at communication has failed. Furthermore, stop trying to be all postmodern. It's annoying.
and it's not my fault either. i would say let's drop the hostilities and try to reconcile the fact. and if i can't be heard, then your attempt at listening has failed. i don't even know what postmodern means. i was at a party a few weeks ago and someone people were talking about it and how it and its jargon are ridiculous. all i could say was wasn't foucault a postmodernist? because he's the only postmodernist i've ever read. i don't try to be postmodern i just write the way i write. i'm a writer. that's what i'm supposed to do so i DO IT. i havent even been in school for over a year and all i study is buddhism and random literary texts.

[Light Flantastic]

If I can't, your attempt at communication has failed. only if you were the only other person in the forum

[1338 h4x0r]

ha ha
no the idea that there isnt any such thing as truth is mallocentric ****brick thinking

Truth implies such a thing as falsity, and is therefore a disgusting example of dualistic, exclusive masculine phallocentrism

[Iskandar]

and it's not my fault either. i would say let's drop the hostilities and try to reconcile the fact. and if i can't be heard, then your attempt at listening has failed. i don't even know what postmodern means. i was at a party a few weeks ago and someone people were talking about it and how it and its jargon are ridiculous. all i could say was wasn't foucault a postmodernist? because he's the only postmodernist i've ever read. i don't try to be postmodern i just write the way i write. i'm a writer. that's what i'm supposed to do so i DO IT. i havent even been in school for over a year and all i study is buddhism and random literary texts.Go back to school, take something useful and learn to write. This is the best advice I can give you.

[1338 h4x0r]

Why do you have to be in university to learn how to write?

pedro durruti appears to be willfully shitty

[Iskandar]

You have to be able to write to do well.

[1338 h4x0r]

yeah but I don't see how university is necessary especially when pedro is probably a rich hipster with a lot of time who can get everything he needs to know about how to write from previous and current great writers and the Internets

[Mr. Ron]

everyone chill zee fook owt

[gregulus]

everyone chill zee fook owt

shut up.






jkilu

[McP3000]

The idea that there is any such thing as "truth" reflects phallocentric masculine thinking
oh get the **** over yourself

[gregulus]

oh get the **** over yourself

Do you not remember how often he makes fun of postmodernist accusations of "phallic" thinking?

[Iskandar]

That's misogynistic, gregulus.

[gregulus]

That's misogynistic, gregulus.

Is it because I don't agree that science is misogynistic because scientists know more about rigid mechanics than fluid? Will this affect my chances of getting laid by cute college girls?

[Iskandar]

You're only exposing your own gender bias argh.

[gregulus]

You're only exposing your own gender bias argh.

I better go read some more postmodernism.

[Iskandar]

It's spelled "postmodyrnism" now. It's more politycally correct.

[Mr. Ron]

last night a chick offered to get me food, and as i was about to get up to get it myself she said "no, I'll get it, I'm the woman" in a serious tone. How awesome is that

[mph4ever]

was it your mom?

[gregulus]

last night a chick offered to get me food, and as i was about to get up to get it myself she said "no, I'll get it, I'm the woman" in a serious tone. How awesome is that

Not very, tbh. That's sort of a turn off.

postmodyrnism
The "y" obviously resembles a vagina and the "i" a phallus. This spelling is much more politically correct. You better publish this.

[Iskandar]

Last night a government offered to get me healthcare, and as I was about to get up to get it myself it said "no, I'll get it, I'm the state" in a serious tone. How awesome is that.

[Mr. Ron]

was it your mom?
nah, she just believes in being "maternal" so I won't get in her way

[mph4ever]

nah, she just believes in being "maternal" so I won't get in her way


milf?

[gregulus]

Last night a government offered to get me healthcare, and as I was about to get up to get it myself it said "no, I'll get it, I'm the state" in a serious tone. How awesome is that.

Attention, Chad!


By the way, did you read that study I posted on health care, Ron? You really should read it.

[Iskandar]

Oh her idea of maternal is being subservient to men that actually is misogynistic.

[Mr. Ron]

hey, I offered, don't look at me.

[Iskandar]

I didn't blame you but her.

[Light Flantastic]

Attention, Chad!

ya what

[Mr. Ron]

She's a good girl, I think it was more or less of a joke anyways. Plus it was her house.

[Iskandar]

She's a good girl, I think it was more or less of a joke anyways. Plus it was her house.Okay.

[Mr. Ron]

She's a redhead as well ;]

[Iskandar]

She's a redhead as well ;]Dude you totally need to get in on that.

[Joe]

i don't know where i should be posting this but I don't want to make a thread about it - but sarah palin said today that she will be stepping down as governor this month

[Against Miik!]

To do what? Start her presidential campaign? I hope she remembers that the more she talks, the more people hate her.

[McP3000]

hopefully a man takes her place

dont want any more vaginas in office

[Light Flantastic]

ill have all the vaginas in my office

[Iskandar]

hopefully a man takes her place

dont want any more vaginas in officeOne with equally bad opinions too.

[1338 h4x0r]

oh get the **** over yourself

I was being funny you Christfag

[McP3000]

One with equally bad opinions too.
yes well its politics

I was being funny you Christfag
i wasnt aware you were being funny why dont you try harder next time

Christfag? wtf is this 4chan?

[1338 h4x0r]

i wasnt aware you were being funny why dont you try harder next time

Everyone else got it

I know you lack the neural substrate to get nuanced humor, it's ok......

[TerranYouApart]

don't be a christfag

[Mr. Ron]

Just because I know this will anger most of you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J_9iVLpWHM


I do it 4 zee lulz

[1338 h4x0r]

zee lulz shall be had

[gregulus]

srs biz.

[Mr. Ron]

I have so much meat BBQ'ing right now its not even funny guys

[gregulus]

That guy's other videos are hilarious.

[YDtoad]

a man urinated on the floor of the bus from a seat beside mine today. Most disgusting moment ever.

[1338 h4x0r]

I just saw a post by Steve

Most disgusting moment ever

Until I see another post by Steve

[McP3000]

not even remotely clever or witty

[TerranYouApart]

a man urinated on the floor of the bus from a seat beside mine today. Most disgusting moment ever.

had he eaten asparagus? if so, i can see why that would be so disgusting.

[Iskandar]

Welcome to Pittsburgh.

[Mr. Ron]

at least he didn't do a poopy

[die of starvation]

mr ron

and

the dropper

[Mr. Ron]

hey tway

[die of starvation]

hey mr ron

u havent ****ed me yet

i dont think

[Mr. Ron]

not yet

[die of starvation]

well

wats the prob

[Mr. Ron]

I'm nervous :(

[die of starvation]

i will make appletinis

[McP3000]

i will make appletinis
ahahahaha

ilu sweet cheeks

[1338 h4x0r]

not even remotely clever or witty

I just saw a post by McP

Most disgusting moment ever

Until I see another post by McP

[McP3000]

I just saw a post by McP

Most disgusting moment ever

Until I see another post by McP
10/10 would read again

[TerranYouApart]

10/10 would read again
i don't think i've ever seen you say anything consequential

[McP3000]

i don't think i've ever seen you say anything consequential
i dont think ive ever seen you say something that's not trolling me foad

[1338 h4x0r]

10/10 would read again

heil

[McP3000]

heil
http://www.thedaily******.com/wp-content/uploads/hitler_paper.jpg

[1338 h4x0r]

Image fail

Use tinypic fag fag

[1338 h4x0r]

I'm "BroInChrist" in this dialogue

<woodfeather> Id like to hear your story
<BroInChrist> sure
<BroInChrist> do you know what mesothelioma is?
<woodfeather> yes
<BroInChrist> oh ok
<woodfeather> who has not seen those commercials about it
<BroInChrist> well, I used to remove asbestos from old buildings
<woodfeather> *listening*
<BroInChrist> eventually I came down with the first symptoms of mesothelioma
<BroInChrist> so...
<BroInChrist> the first thing I thought it was some kind of nasty bug
<BroInChrist> something that would go away soon
<BroInChrist> but I when I spat up blood I went to doctor and he asked me about my prior occupations
<BroInChrist> I mentioned asbestos removal and I got screened for mesothelioma
<BroInChrist> eventually I started to undergo exceedingly painful treatment
<BroInChrist> surgery, radiation, chemo
<BroInChrist> it took a heavy toll and the doctors said I had only months to live
<woodfeather> have you been healed in Christ. I pray so
<BroInChrist> well, my cousin came to me
<BroInChrist> he told me it was time for me to find salvation in Christ
<BroInChrist> because I had been an atheist until then
<woodfeather> (c:
<BroInChrist> so he convinced me to go to church with him
<BroInChrist> that's when I found Jesus bro
<woodfeather> and now?
<BroInChrist> and the mesothelioma went into mysterious remission 2 mos after I let Christ into my heart
<BroInChrist> the doctors couldn't explain it
<woodfeather> Praise God
<woodfeather> how long now have you been in remission?
<BroInChrist> three months
<BroInChrist> in fact I have a fuller account of my experience with Christ if you'd like to see it
<woodfeather> I am delighted to meet you BroInChrist.
<BroInChrist> http://gnaa.on.nimp.org/how-i-found-jesus
<woodfeather> Yes, Id like to read it
<BroInChrist> there it is

He's been silent for a few minutes

[Light Flantastic]

so it just cleared up on its own all of a sudden?

[Berner]

1338 I loved it.

[1338 h4x0r]

1338 I loved it.

Yeah I'm unleashing the full power of lastmeasure against pretty much every individual or group I don't like on the Internet

It's one of the only ways, however small, to fight the many legions of the stupid uglifying the wide Earth before I go to grad school and start to be able to make a real difference

[Light Flantastic]

seems like its kind of a waste of your time

[1338 h4x0r]

It actually doesn't take much time to trick people into clicking on a lastmeasure mirror

[Mr. Ron]

i will make appletinis
ok but I'm going to have to have a few...

[Light Flantastic]

It actually doesn't take much time to trick people into clicking on a lastmeasure mirror

throwing a penny in a fountain is still wasting money bro

you could save them pennies up and feed a homeless guy for a day

[1338 h4x0r]

throwing a penny in a fountain is still wasting money bro

you could save them pennies up and feed a homeless guy for a day

I don't think anyone's rationality is that unbounded

[gregulus]

What is that link? I'm at work and I'm not terribly eager to click on it either.

[1338 h4x0r]

gnaa.on.nimp.org is a shock site that takes over your computer and plays "HEY EVERYBODY I'M LOOKING AT GAY PORNO!" in a loop, very loudly

[Light Flantastic]

http://gregulus.on.nimp.org/

[Crudo]

nothing is a waste of time when you're an asspie

[Iskandar]

I don't know who you are but this probably isn't the forum for you.

[Light Flantastic]

i do know who you are and this definitely isnt the forum for you

[1338 h4x0r]

I don't know who you are but this probably isn't the forum for you.

It's Eliminator, who is probably an Asspie himself, or very close

[Iskandar]

Thank you for sparing me the trouble of running IP search and letting it sift through his many alts.

[Light Flantastic]

theres patterns everywhere man take this post for example

[McP3000]

Thank you for sparing me the trouble of running IP search and letting it sift through his many alts.
he's a man of many faces

he is the master of disguise

[Iskandar]

He's a moron.

[McP3000]

yeah but everyone already knows that

[1338 h4x0r]

Eliminator's pretty funny

[Mr. Ron]

elim is cool

[McP3000]

yeah he's funny

but is he ~PoPuLaR~?

[Mr. Ron]

we have similar avatars, therefore he is a sexy beast

[McP3000]

my avatar is way sexier

[sweboy]

gtfo with yo avatars



<--

[Iskandar]

http://www.imagechicken.com/uploads/1247119945082801300.jpg

Good to see our national leaders are keeping busy at the G8 summit.

[Dave de Sylvia]

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/ad1167290552169df02932fa30680cd8ebd9e20c.pjpg

[Iskandar]

Good call. If anyone needed proof Obama is black enough, observe how he just can't ignore that apple booty right in front of him.

And Sarkozy's just standing there looking creepy, as usual.

[Chu]

Sarkosy is the ****, **** all you haters.

[dustindow]

*hater*

[die of starvation]

ok but I'm going to have to have a few...

i make them strong since the apple flavor is nasty

dont tell anybody i said that

[808]

I am scared of atheism.

[McP3000]

atheists did 9/11

[Pop music sucks]

we have similar avatars, therefore he is a sexy beastHey Mr. Ron I found another nerd girl to appreciate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zYpnZ5lwtg

B-)

[Light Flantastic]

gross

[1338 h4x0r]

Hey Mr. Ron I found another nerd girl to appreciate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zYpnZ5lwtg

B-)

idk this is pretty elite

http://x06.xanga.com/db7f113a24232215796122/b168763955.jpg

[808]

No she is not.

[1338 h4x0r]

Well I beg to differ

[Light Flantastic]

nerdy girls have emotional and social problems sry