PNWI Community Thread version 3.0 (KEEP REFRIGERATED AT ALL TIMES)

[veggie 3.14]

Hey zero you heard the "robert johnson is played too fast" conspiracy? ;)

Also do you like son house?

son house > robert johnson

Explain?

:lol:

This one sounds good.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Explain?

:lol:

This one sounds good.

He's good but I think Johnson was the greatest. And I haven't heard that conspiracy:p

http://www.touched.co.uk/press/rjnote.html

Fair play to the guy, listening to the sounds slowed down they do sound better and more natural, but the occasional vocal slur kinda ruins it.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

also

#come see the lions
only in kenya#...

I'm amused that my reputation on this post is "extremely negative" C/O Zer0cool



APOLOGIES for my apocalypse-inducing misquote, sir ;)

[veggie 3.14]

:lol:

That Johnson stuff is actually quite interesting.

I'm pleased to report that the Tool album is immense, although the packaging does get just a little irritating; the thing just will not stack safely!

To be fair, it is a pretty cool concept.

[Hababi]

It's interesting, fairly well presented...but I still don't buy it.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

:lol:

That Johnson stuff is actually quite interesting.

I'm pleased to report that the Tool album is immense, although the packaging does get just a little irritating; the thing just will not stack safely!

To be fair, it is a pretty cool concept.

I gotta agree with Zero man, Tool are way to pompous and wanky for me. Although I do like some APC (Blue especially). But so much of their stuff is just grey, depressing stuff. I don't need someone to tell me how to be depressed, I'd rather someone with genuine catharsis from pain (Jeff Buckley, Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen) or something that actually makes me feel better (Wagner, The Only Ones)

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

It's interesting, fairly well presented...but I still don't buy it.

Snap, although I still find it musically interesting. I won't pretend i don't prefer it a little ;)

[coheneran]

Lol. I don't listen to Tool out of the principle that all my friends listen to them.

This doesn't explain my love for Chrsitina Aguilera, though.

I hate cops so much.

[AlienEater]

Yeah those damn pigs.

Any reason for your hate?

What is it

[Mr. Ron]

Lol. I don't listen to Tool out of the principle that all my friends listen to them.

This doesn't explain my love for Chrsitina Aguilera, though.

I hate cops so much.

Ewwwwwwwwwww

[coheneran]

Yeah those damn pigs.

Any reason for your hate?

What is it

Went on a union protest today and I was the only person the police picked on, and the searched me under the Terrorism Act. There was no reason for it, I wasn't behaving suspiciously, or violently, and the bastard copper wouldn't give me a reason why (not that he has to, seeing as it's the Terrorism Act, but I'd have liked to know).

So out of pure spite, his badge number is A-773. What a complete ****er.

[Mr. Ron]

Went on a union protest today and I was the only person the police picked on, and the searched me under the Terrorism Act. There was no reason for it, I wasn't behaving suspiciously, or violently, and the bastard copper wouldn't give me a reason why (not that he has to, seeing as it's the Terrorism Act, but I'd have liked to know).

So out of pure spite, his badge number is A-773. What a complete ****er.

You were at a protest, you very well know searching could be done. Plus, putting some guy's badge number online is pretty dangerous.




lol, I remember arguing with you once a while back in the punk forums about cops.

[coheneran]

Police harrassment isn't and shouldn't be a normal part of protesting. Why is protesting so taboo and dangerous? It's a vital part of democracy, as vital as "one person = one vote", we shouldn't have to put up with random police repression at protests.

[AlienEater]

Went on a union protest today and I was the only person the police picked on, and the searched me under the Terrorism Act. There was no reason for it, I wasn't behaving suspiciously, or violently, and the bastard copper wouldn't give me a reason why (not that he has to, seeing as it's the Terrorism Act, but I'd have liked to know).

So out of pure spite, his badge number is A-773. What a complete ****er.

Terrorism wtf.

[Mr. Ron]

Terrorism wtf.

Everyone knows Coheneran is a documented terrorist.

[AlienEater]

Oh right.

[coheneran]

Ya Allah, I am not a damn terrorist!

I'm a practical pacifist.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Ya Allah, I am not a damn terrorist!

I'm a practical pacifist.

yeah sure




If you're not a terrorist

how come you're an anarchist

i mean doesn't that like believe you mean in legalising terrorism?



;)NOT ;) SERIOUS;)

[veggie 3.14]

I gotta agree with Zero man, Tool are way to pompous and wanky for me. Although I do like some APC (Blue especially). But so much of their stuff is just grey, depressing stuff. I don't need someone to tell me how to be depressed, I'd rather someone with genuine catharsis from pain (Jeff Buckley, Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen) or something that actually makes me feel better (Wagner, The Only Ones)

:lol:

The Only Ones are immense.

I mean, I've never really listened to 'metal' before; this is the first band of that genre I've really got into, although I'm not even sure if they are metal. Hurm.

Also, I really reccommend Nick Drake's album Pink Moon to everyone here. I absolutely love it to pieces.

Changing the subject slightly, I had GCSE mock exams today. w00t.

Sat there for an hour doodling a city of clouds in the sky during my maths mock. Oops.

I also had no idea what the vast majority of the questions were about, so I guess my teacher is gonna be pished.

[veggie 3.14]

Case in point:

"Why is Bill's answer to this question wrong?"

"Because Bill is an idiot."

Heh.

[coheneran]

The Turner Prize should not be sponsored by Gordon's, or anyone.

[veggie 3.14]

Right.

[coheneran]

Ospreys are pretty ****ing cool.

[veggie 3.14]

Not as cool as Otis Redding.

[coheneran]

Can Otis Redding fly from Martha's Vineyard all the way to Guantanamo Bay via Miami? Can he take a 50+ feet dive to catch a large fish in his claws?

[Iskandar]

Ya Allah, I am not a damn terrorist!
Insha'Llah you will be someday.

[coheneran]

Actually, I had my first Arabic lesson today. As well as other things, I learned (well, wrote down:rolleyes:) how to say "I am here to help you" and "I am against the occupation all over the world" and a few miscellaneous words to do with olive trees and farming tools.

[Iskandar]

Actually, I had my first Arabic lesson today. As well as other things, I learned (well, wrote down:rolleyes:) how to say "I am here to help you" and "I am against the occupation all over the world" and a few miscellaneous words to do with olive trees and farming tools.
Cool.

I know a lot of random words.

[coheneran]

Dude, you're coming up to the 7000th post mark. Well done, you've been here three years longer than me and I still have over 500 more posts.:p

[PerpetualBurn]

Can Otis Redding fly from Martha's Vineyard all the way to Guantanamo Bay via Miami?

I don't know.

But Buddly Holly can't.

[Iskandar]

Dude, you're coming up to the 7000th post mark. Well done, you've been here three years longer than me and I still have over 500 more posts.:p
I'll make it my goal to surpass you.

[coheneran]

I don't know.

But Buddly Holly can't.

:lol::lol:

Harsh dude.

[PerpetualBurn]

As if.

Surely it's not too soon?

I got a similar reaction earlier today when I was telling my Princess Di jokes.

[coheneran]

Frankly, I can't wait to hear some 9/11 jokes, they'd be hilarious.

"Where do American businessmen go when things start collapsing?

Out the window!"

There's also a Stock Market Collapse reference in there.

[PerpetualBurn]

Did you know Princess Diana was on the radio before she died?

And the steering wheel.

And the dashboard.

[coheneran]

:lol:

[PerpetualBurn]

And yet Buddy Holly is harsh.

I love me sick jokes.

[lunchforthesky]

Did you know Princess Diana was on the radio before she died?

And the steering wheel.

And the dashboard.

i wont lie that was pretty funny.

i never liked her anyway.

[Hababi]

With Med being MIA (no doubt sick over his boneheaded banning of me) and Smokey keeping different hours than most other people, being half way around the world and all, I almost want to volunteer my services to mod this place again...

Almost. Not quite. I'm still glad I resigned :p

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm glad you resigned too.

I'd be out on my arse.

[Hababi]

I'm glad you resigned too.

I'd be out on my arse.

Totally.

Just to quote myself in case people abandon glorious page 102:


With Med being MIA (no doubt sick over his boneheaded banning of me) and Smokey keeping different hours than most other people, being half way around the world and all, I almost want to volunteer my services to mod this place again...

Almost. Not quite. I'm still glad I resigned :p

[PerpetualBurn]

I do however take pride that in my 5,688 previous posts, no moderator has ever taken steps to ban me.

Clearly you would be a mod of a unique nature.

[Hababi]

I do however take pride that in my 5,688 previous posts, no moderator has ever taken steps to ban me.

Clearly you would be a mod of a unique nature.

They've been remiss in their duties:smash:

[pedro durruti]

that'd be interesting electing a new mod in here, if we had to. we would probably end up in a debate about supply and demand though

[Hababi]

that'd be interesting electing a new mod in here, if we had to. we would probably end up in a debate about supply and demand though

Haha don't start that; we'll get another 'elect the mod' campaign :p

Which Dropper would win, if he wanted it. And, if we had to get another mod in here, myself not withstanding, I'd select Dropper. Even though he's a commie:smash:

[PerpetualBurn]

I'd piss any such competition.

I'm amazing.

[coheneran]

I'm sorry, but I would also vote Dropper. Everyone knows communists don't abuse their power.

[PerpetualBurn]

You're both just saying it because it's not a private ballot.

Everyone loves me really.

[Hababi]

You're both just saying it because it's not a private ballot.

Everyone loves* me really.

*Hates :p

[PerpetualBurn]

I didn't think it could get any wittier when I saw you'd typed "hates" but then I noticed the same little face you put in every sodding post you make.

And I realised I was right.

I just watched Walk The Line again. I do so love Johnny Cash.

[Hababi]

I don't post :p after every post :angry:

...Just most :p

hey everyone needs a trademark

And yeah, Walk the Line pwns. I have it on DVD.

[thedeadwalk!]

Walk the Line was a white man's Ray. I'm not just saying that for the difference in color, but they had about the same exact story. Poor boy struggles from poverty to rise to stardom, deal with drug addiction and eventually work through their demons and leave a lasting legacy in their respective genres.

I didn't care for Walk as much as Ray, though that might very well be different if I had seen Walk first. I guess his problems were just too dramatic so I couldn't feel for him. I was impressed with Reese Witherspoon, though, for some reason.

[coheneran]

I can't wait to see a film about Immortal Technique, that'd be some innerestin' goddamn movie.

[lunchforthesky]

His records pwn especially volume 2. One of the only hip hop artists i listen to.

[PerpetualBurn]

"How convincing is Socrates' refutation of Thrasymachus' definition of justice in book 1 of The Republic?"

0/1500 words done.

Essay worth an entire module to be handed in tomorrow afternoon.

Anyone feel like doing it for me?

[YDtoad]

Walk the Line was a white man's Ray. I'm not just saying that for the difference in color, but they had about the same exact story. Poor boy struggles from poverty to rise to stardom, deal with drug addiction and eventually work through their demons and leave a lasting legacy in their respective genres.


Haha not bad, pretty accurate.


I didn't care for Walk as much as Ray, though that might very well be different if I had seen Walk first. I guess his problems were just too dramatic so I couldn't feel for him. I was impressed with Reese Witherspoon, though, for some reason.

I was more impressed with Phoenix's performance, since he did the singing and actually did a darn good job with Johnny Cash's voice (not an easy task). Fox played Ray Charles' piano parts but didn't do any singing.

Though Kevin Spacey is probably the best singing actor, even if Beyond the Sea doesn't measure up to the other two films in cinematic standards.


I've barely been able to crawl out of bed in the mornings out of regret for banning you.


Yes, as it should be.

EDIT: Wow I just realized I'm on the other account :( Well I'm not going to delete this post and repost it as Serenity, so we'll just have to live with a little more YDtoad action...

[PerpetualBurn]

Do my essay, dammit!

[YDtoad]

Do my essay, dammit!

Oh trust me you wouldn't want my essay...I'd write 200 words on it then veer into gay marriage or Israel/Palestine :lol:

[Mr. Ron]

Zero's essays are FABULOUS!





Btw zero, whats your actual name? I always wondered.

[YDtoad]

Zero's essays are FABULOUS!





Btw zero, whats your actual name? I always wondered.

Steve :cool:

[Mr. Ron]

Steve :cool:

I know so many steves in real life it's not even funny. I can think of 10 off the top of my head righ tnow. :[

[YDtoad]

Yes, Steve has become far too common a name. I'd never name my kid something in the top 50.

Seriously, who names their kids "Bob"? It's a name that basically says, "We couldn't come up with anything better, so um, yeah. Bob"

Luke
Noah
Ishmael

Those are the cool names :p

*waits for someone to blast Ishmael*

[Mr. Ron]

I plan on naming my first boy Ron, since it is my father's and my name. Got to keep the tradition going.:cool:


I hate names that start with the letter "B". Like Brent. Ugh.


Girls names that are cool: Madison, Eva, Samantha, Morgan, Jessica.

[YDtoad]

Serenity! :p

Also June, Melody, and Autumn.

[Mr. Ron]

Aristotle.


Imagine taking attendance in grade school:

"Bill...sally...john...mark...kaitlen...ARISTOTLE!"

[YDtoad]

Now that would leave an impression :cool:

[coheneran]

Not to mention bruises.

[Iskandar]

Haha don't start that; we'll get another 'elect the mod' campaign :p

Which Dropper would win, if he wanted it. And, if we had to get another mod in here, myself not withstanding, I'd select Dropper. Even though he's a commie:smash:
I don't know what to say:eek:
I'm sorry, but I would also vote Dropper. Everyone knows communists don't abuse their power.
:)

[thedeadwalk!]

I was more impressed with Phoenix's performance, since he did the singing and actually did a darn good job with Johnny Cash's voice (not an easy task). Fox played Ray Charles' piano parts but didn't do any singing.
Witherspoon did her own singing, too, as I recall.

I've no complaints on Phoenix's part, it's just the script was too melodramatic for me.

[pedro durruti]

my belly aches for food

[PerpetualBurn]

I've been living off a diet of pasta, toast and cheese for nearly a week now.

[spitfirejunky]

You should fix that. :lol:

[Mr. Ron]

I've been living off a diet of pasta, toast and cheese for nearly a week now.

I could really go for some shrimp alfredo. :(

[veggie 3.14]

'Sup y'all?

Amazon order arrived today.

Two Iggy Pop albums, (One of which won't burn onto my PC. Gnnnnh.) one Blue Nile album, the Trainspotting book, and The Man Who Was Thursday. All are awesome.

:)

Zero, why were you banned?

And how many posts have you made in total?

Zerokewl999999 had like 16k before you changed the name fifty bazillion times.

[lunchforthesky]

Steve :cool:

Proof you couldnt possibly be anymore white :p

[spitfirejunky]

Zero lumped Israelis with Jews and called someone's mom a terrorist sympathizer. :eek:



























:lol::lol::lol:

[veggie 3.14]

:lol:

[lunchforthesky]

he called a muslim guys dad a terrorist and said he deserved to be killed in jerusalem.

[veggie 3.14]

Double- :lol:

[Mr. Ron]

I'm on my 4th bag of chex mix. I think I have a problem. :(

[veggie 3.14]

You really do.

[coheneran]

'Sup y'all?

Amazon order arrived today.

Two Iggy Pop albums, (One of which won't burn onto my PC. Gnnnnh.) one Blue Nile album, the Trainspotting book, and The Man Who Was Thursday. All are awesome.

That book is pretty awesome, just try not to take it seriously. The guy knew nothing about politics, but **** me sideways, what a great writer.

[Mr. Ron]

I just picked up a ton of H.P. Lovecraft books the other day. This guy was twisted.:p

[thedeadwalk!]

Funny we're on books. I just saw our off campus bookstore was turned into a comic book shop. Not a bad improvement.

[veggie 3.14]

That book is pretty awesome, just try not to take it seriously. The guy knew nothing about politics, but **** me sideways, what a great writer.

Yeah, I gathered that.

:-p

I got into it via reading extracts of it in the game Deus Ex, which is incidentally the best game made for anything ever.

So complicated, so detailed... and you can take the in game drugs. How cool si that?

:lol:

[coheneran]

Yeah, I gathered that.

:-p

I got into it via reading extracts of it in the game Deus Ex, which is incidentally the best game made for anything ever.

So complicated, so detailed... and you can take the in game drugs. How cool si that?

:lol:

Dude, don't even get me started on how good that game is. I wish that all the old team who worked on the first one would come back and make a better sequel, since I hear Invisible Wars was crap. What an incredible game that was. Like, oh god. I almost cream my pants when I think about the ending. Oh maaaan, it's soooo goooood.

[Iskandar]

Vote Dropper for mod in winter '06/7! Viva El Droppero! Viva la Revolución! VIVA!

[coheneran]

Who wants to start the People's Internet Front For Liberating and Emancipating Sputnik? PIFFLES for short.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Vote Dropper for mod in winter '06/7! Viva El Droppero! Viva la Revolución! VIVA!

Dude I need to see your manifesto

[pedro durruti]

be careful he might try to industrialize us

[YDtoad]

I got a cold call from an Army recruiter today..and it was some stoner guy. "Yeah man it's coooold out today, wish I was in Florida, man"...




Zero, why were you banned?


Because Med went on a trip to stupidville :D

But seriously, he's changed his rationale, so I donnu, something I said. Kill all Hamas members, something like that...

I think we should kill all Hamas members.




And how many posts have you made in total?


I don't know; I don't want to know. It's a lot. Less than Amit, though.

[PerpetualBurn]

I could really go for some shrimp alfredo. :(

The last time I had shrimp it was from a suspiciously cheap Indian take-away.

I love being a poor student. All my money goes on beer.

I still haven't started my essay for tomorrow. 14 hours till it has to be handed in.

[coheneran]

The last time I had shrimp it was from a suspiciously cheap Indian take-away.

I love being a poor student. All my money goes on beer.

I still haven't started my essay for tomorrow. 14 hours till it has to be handed in.

Speed. Speed and a computer.

[pedro durruti]

The last time I had shrimp it was from a suspiciously cheap Indian take-away.

I love being a poor student. All my money goes on beer.

I still haven't started my essay for tomorrow. 14 hours till it has to be handed in.
tell me about it, thank goodness 40s are so cheap

[coheneran]

We don't get 40s here.:(

But we get £1.99 cider that ****s your head up.

[AlienEater]

And that can only be good

[coheneran]

Until you wake up in a puddle of your own puke with your male friend's hand on your **** and half the brain cells you had when you started drinking.

[Iskandar]

Who wants to start the People's Internet Front For Liberating and Emancipating Sputnik? PIFFLES for short.
I love those anarchist coalitions with 12 or so initials in their names, which accomplish nothing but disseminate a lot of propaganda on the internet.:wave:
Dude I need to see your manifesto
http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

You're in luck! I've just about finished drafting it.

[HazMatBlue]

have i seen this manifesto before?

[PerpetualBurn]

1,177/1500 words completed.

I'm arguing that Thrasymachus' analysis of justice is rubbish. And so is Socrates' refutation.

And I'm also wondering why Philosophy and Politics is one of the few subject that didn't get a reading week when I blatantly have more reading than most other subjects.

And I've had 6 cups of tea and three cans of coke.

And I'm twitching.

And it's 5:44am.

I'm tired, but also high on caffeine.

And caffeine means I keep having to go for a slash.

Shoddy diaretics.

Time for work to be handed in: 3.30pm

Plenty of time.

[thedeadwalk!]

I've done depressingly little since Friday.

Saturday - Accounting final
Sunday - wrote 1 page long Medical Sociology final (yes, that's the limit)
Tuesday - bought jigsaw puzzle (nothing to do with school)

I'm turning my paper in tomorrow but still have to kill time till Thursday for my last exam, then I'm holiday bound.

I think I've been on my computer longer than gold farmers in China...

[PerpetualBurn]

I finish for Christmas officially on the 16th, though since I only have 2 or 3 seminars left before then, I'm pretty much finished now. I just have a shedload of reading to get done.

[thedeadwalk!]

****! They changed the TV channels on me! Those bastards!

[coheneran]

I love those anarchist coalitions with 12 or so initials in their names, which accomplish nothing but disseminate a lot of propaganda on the internet.:wave:


No kidding, me too. Incidentally, there's a new Wombles (White Overall Movement Building Liberatarian Effective Struggles) social centre opening, which should be good, though it doesn't affect you in the least.

I know they're called White Overalls, but I prefer White Overall, since they really are.:p

[coheneran]

****! They changed the TV channels on me! Those bastards!

That's why I stick to terrestrial. Five channels are enough for me.

[thedeadwalk!]

Terrestrial? I guess that's a different word for our "basic."

I don't usually watch TV but my school gets National Geographic and MSNBC so I try and take advantage. I also dig TLC, some shows on Comedy Central/Adult Swim, and The Twilight Zone and Seinfeld.

What's everyone else watch?

[Der Übermensch]

Terrestrial is broadcast channels, what you get free with an antennae.

[thedeadwalk!]

So just like major networks on them? That's what basic is here.

[Der Übermensch]

Ja, pretty much. Back home, we get ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, FOX, and the CW via broadcast, although the last three are the only consitently good signal.
With very basic cable (ie its "free" with the Internet cable we get) we get the same thing, just better quality signal, +CSPAN and Local Access.
Of course here at college we have full cable, with HBO and Showtime 8-)

[thedeadwalk!]

Aw, nice. I wish we had HBO, especially with talks about them adapting Preacher into a show.

We once got it for free at my house but they cut it half way through the Band of Brothers miniseries.

[Der Übermensch]

That musta sucked...

[thedeadwalk!]

So, my roommate's girlfriend is spending the night tonight. I hated him before, but now...

I better not hear anything.

[griftadan]

film it and put it on the internet. if its not in the roommate agreement its fair game.

[coheneran]

In boarding school, we used to have sex all the time in our room, and there were four boys to one room. Sex with girls I mean. Privacy is in the mind, not the environment. It's all just background noise baby.

But yeah, film it dude.

[Der Übermensch]

jeez... I did once sneak into the bathroom to have sex with my girlfriend while one of my roomates was sleeping, but we never overtly had sex with them in the same room... That would be just ****ing weird...

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I think we should kill all Hamas members.



"You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands..."

[coheneran]

"You can't trust freedom when it's not in your hands..."

"When everybody's fightin' for the Promised Laaand!

OH I don't need your civil waaar!
It feeds the rich while it buries the pooor!
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store,
I don't need your civil waaaaaar, no!"

That song rocks my tits.

[AlienEater]

In boarding school, we used to have sex all the time in our room, and there were four boys to one room. Sex with girls I mean. Privacy is in the mind, not the environment. It's all just background noise baby.

That's pretty weird.

[coheneran]

When you're 15 it doesn't matter so much. I still don't really care who's in the room, as long as they don't try to join in without asking.:p

EDIT: That's an exagguration, there are a number of people who I'd never want to be in the same room as while I (or they, especially they) am having sex. Parents etc.

[AlienEater]

I'm glad I don't go to a boarding school.

[coheneran]

I loved it.

Bunch o' nancy prudes.

[AlienEater]

I very much doubt I would love it.

But good for you that you did or something.

[Mr. Ron]

I loved it.

Bunch o' nancy prudes.

People have different morals/values than you.

[coheneran]

Yup.:D

[veggie 3.14]

Dude, don't even get me started on how good that game is. I wish that all the old team who worked on the first one would come back and make a better sequel, since I hear Invisible Wars was crap. What an incredible game that was. Like, oh god. I almost cream my pants when I think about the ending. Oh maaaan, it's soooo goooood.

Haha.

I always love playing the Hong Kong missions.

Robbing random shops= awesome.

I always take out all the policemen there, then you can just do whatever you want.

:D

Got Joy Division- Substance yesterday. Six albums in six days.... I think I'd better stop now.

:lol:

[AlienEater]

No buy more

[PerpetualBurn]

Buy lots.

And by buy I mean purchase.

And by purchase I mean download for free.

[veggie 3.14]

:-p

Finished Trainspotting. Now cruisin' through The Man Who Was Thursday.

Absolutely fantastic writer, the guy that wrote it.

[Iskandar]

People have different morals/values than you.
:lol: Awesome avatar! I just made mine the other day.

[Mr. Ron]

:lol: Awesome avatar! I just made mine the other day.

I find the Santa hat brings a nice change to the old guy. :cool:

[Der Übermensch]

So i just went to the national xmas tree lighting... worst decision ever. SOOOO cold, crappy performances, over rated.
I can't believe I camped out for tickets...

[veggie 3.14]

Gutted.

[The_Passenger]

I have no idea what christmas tree lighting is like in the US but if it is anything like it is over here then I don't understand why you would pay money to see it in the first place. (I guess it can't be much like it because here you don't have to pay as far as I'm aware).

[veggie 3.14]

I have no idea what christmas tree lighting is like in the US but if it is anything like it is over here then I don't understand why you would pay money to see it in the first place. (I guess it can't be much like it because here you don't have to pay as far as I'm aware).

:lol:

Aye.

Well, I've got a fun filled evening of nowt ahead of me.

Awesome!

[The_Passenger]

Well, I've got a fun filled evening of nowt ahead of me.

Awesome!

Same here!

...

:(

At least Wednesday night should be cool.

[veggie 3.14]

Same here!

...

:(

At least Wednesday night should be cool.

Ah, I'll just have to listen to my six new albums. Shame, really...

Highly reccommended band: The Blue Nile.

Look on wikipedia. They are ****ing aaaaaawesome.

[The_Passenger]

They description makes them seem cool, but they don't seem very prolific (4 albums over 20 years, that's just plain slow). Any reccomendations?

[veggie 3.14]

They description makes them seem cool, but they don't seem very prolific (4 albums over 20 years, that's just plain slow). Any reccomendations?

A Walk Across The Rooftops. Both album and song. Hats, as well, which I have recently purchased, and is brilliant.

Yeah, they aren't exactly fast workers, by anyone's standards.

[YDtoad]

Med's browsing tonight, I have to be on the lookout :o :D :lol:

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

The Blue Nile are well good, but I only have the first album

[Der Übermensch]

I have no idea what christmas tree lighting is like in the US but if it is anything like it is over here then I don't understand why you would pay money to see it in the first place. (I guess it can't be much like it because here you don't have to pay as far as I'm aware).


Its free to go to. We went for the novelty of it... the President was there and crap...

[The_Passenger]

Oh right, when you said you camped out for tickets I assumed you had to pay.

But I can't believe you'd need tickets. It's not conisdered a big deal over here, some local celebrity just goes into the city centre and flicks a switch.

[Der Übermensch]

I live in DC... the "Local Celebrity" is the President of the USA...
Tickets are extreeeeemly hard to come by. The first person in line had been there since 2 in the afternoon... They actually pass the tickets out at 8 AM...

[The_Passenger]

I live in DC... the "Local Celebrity" is the President of the USA...
Oh...

Tickets are extreeeeemly hard to come by. The first person in line had been there since 2 in the afternoon... They actually pass the tickets out at 8 AM...
yeah it sounds like a far bigger event than it is over here. So there was a concert or variety show or something to go with it?

[coheneran]

Christmas is so god damn lame. Hanuka is way better.

[pedro durruti]

I love Christmas

[AlienEater]

Christmas can be fun.

[coheneran]

Hanuka is better.

[AlienEater]

Happy hanuka

[coheneran]

Meh, I don't celebrate it.

[Der Übermensch]

Oh...


yeah it sounds like a far bigger event than it is over here. So there was a concert or variety show or something to go with it?


yeah... it was amazingly stupid, and I'll never go again...

[CardCheat]

Kwanza is where it's at.

[coheneran]

I don't understand why Forrest Gump is such a great film, but it is.

[Hababi]

Just got Firefly, the complete season, for $25. w00t.

[pedro durruti]

Whenever I think of what you look like, I imagine the guy on the cover in your avatar.

[coheneran]

Same. Only with a white hood.

[PerpetualBurn]

So it's only me that imagines Ted Haggard?

I imagine the male prostitute with him too.

[Hababi]

Whenever I think of what you look like, I imagine the guy on the cover in your avatar.

I wish :(

I look most like the guy on the far left (should be on the center right, but...)...minus the muscles....and 4 inches shorter (he's 6'4).

Actually I'd say I look most like a young Dave Matthews...maybe, I donnu...

[AlienEater]

I try not to imagine what people look like

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Christmas is so god damn lame. Hanuka is way better.

Nowai



ANyway guys who's up for some "piss off the archbishop of caterbury by going out of our way to secularise xmas"?

I don't understand why Forrest Gump is such a great film, but it is.

It's good because it's about a good person who is stupid and so who we would not expect to do well in our harsh society but regardless he has this really interesting incredible life and so it makes us feel better about the way we treat the unskilled in society

[Mr. Ron]

Nowai



ANyway guys who's up for some "piss off the archbishop of caterbury by going out of our way to secularise xmas"?

OH OH MEEEEE!!!!!

[PerpetualBurn]

As if telling kids about Santa isn't taking enough away from Jesus...

Though I'd hate to defend the Church.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

As if telling kids about Santa isn't taking enough away from Jesus...

Though I'd hate to defend the Church.

My physics teacher says his daughter's headmaster told the whole school in assemby that santa wasn't real. She was 6.


Godamnit, Church of England! God damn it!

[Mr. Ron]

My physics teacher says his daughter's headmaster told the whole school in assemby that santa wasn't real. She was 6.


Godamnit, Church of England! God damn it!

WTF!? Why?

[PerpetualBurn]

If it were me, and it were my daughter, at the next assembly I'd probably dress up as Santa and beat the living crap out of the headteacher whilst handing out chocolate to the kids.

Everybody wins.

[coheneran]

Except the Head teacher.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Except the Head teacher.

read: the Grinch

[coheneran]

I just had this conversation a couple days ago with someone at an anti-vivisection demo:

Just because you're oppressing an oppressor doesn't mean you're not being oppressive.

[PerpetualBurn]

The teacher would learn to keep his sodding mouth shut, and, after all, isn't that the true meaning of Christmas?

Also, I <3 vivisection.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Dude everyone loves vivisection

I mean screw helping mankind develop life saving medicines

All labvs should devote all their days to blind sadism on unanathatised animals

I mean, that's what scientists DO, rite?

[veggie 3.14]

The Blue Nile are well good, but I only have the first album

Buy Hats. It's just as good.

A Walk Across The Rooftops (the song) just takes me to a completely different place, everytime I listen to it; it's almost magical.

Well, I had a shite day.

w00t.

[coheneran]

Dude everyone loves vivisection

I mean screw helping mankind develop life saving medicines

All labvs should devote all their days to blind sadism on unanathatised animals

I mean, that's what scientists DO, rite?

We have no objective right to exploit animals for our own benefits.

[The_Passenger]

We have no objective right to exploit animals for our own benefits.

How else do you suggest we test new medicines, or other such important things?

[coheneran]

On anything that gives us explicitly clear permission to do it?

[The_Passenger]

On anything that gives us explicitly clear permission to do it?

I guess that testing on willing patients is reasonable, but I don't see why it shouldn't be tested on animals. And what happens if there aren't enough willing participants to fulfill requirements for a medicine to be legally available?

[Der Übermensch]

We have no objective right to exploit animals for our own benefits.


Would you volunteer to be the test subject for newly develpoed medicines and so on in place of the cute little bunnies?

[coheneran]

I guess that testing on willing patients is reasonable, but I don't see why it shouldn't be tested on animals. And what happens if there aren't enough willing participants to fulfill requirements for a medicine to be legally available?

Because it's immensely and unnecessarily hypocritical to preach freedom of choice while testing on helpless beings that can't even communicate their "disapproval" (because I can't remember a better word right now), let alone effectively resist. Also, it's been proven that human beings can live a healthy life without using any animal products, and it's possible, no, it's easier, cheaper and more sustainable, to live a vegan lifestyle.

If there aren't any willing test subjects, then tough **** for the pharm corps.

Would you volunteer to be the test subject for newly develpoed medicines and so on in place of the cute little bunnies?

No, so what?

[The_Passenger]

Because it's immensely and unnecessarily hypocritical to preach freedom of choice while testing on helpless beings that can't even communicate their "disapproval" (because I can't remember a better word right now), let alone effectively resist. Also, it's been proven that human beings can live a healthy life without using any animal products, and it's possible, no, it's easier, cheaper and more sustainable, to live a vegan lifestyle.

You're treating animals like humans, when they simply aren't. Animals can't feel empathy, have no understanding (and never will) of things like civillisation and freedom of choice etc, so I don't know how you can apply such things to them. Animals aren't responsible enough to have rights.
If there aren't any willing test subjects, then tough **** for the pharm corps.
and tough **** for the people whose lives it could save?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

We have no objective right to exploit animals for our own benefits.

That's accurate.

However, if a human and a dog are drowning in a pond, and you could only save one, anyone who wouldn't save the human i would judge as a little mentally ill. Essentially it's the same thing, extrapolated.

[Der Übermensch]

No, so what?

So, they have to be tested somehow, and if you aren't willing to, then we're going to use the cute little bunnies.
We can't go releasing a shampoo only to find out it is horribly reactive and causes your eyes to disolve, now can we?

[coheneran]

You're treating animals like humans, when they simply aren't. Animals can't feel empathy, have no understanding (and never will) of things like civillisation and freedom of choice etc, so I don't know how you can apply such things to them. Animals aren't responsible enough to have rights.

Yes they can.

As for the rest of it, how do you know? Just because a creature has no way to communicate to you what it feels or thinks doesn't mean that it doesn't. Can a deaf-mute-blind woman not understand basic rights because she has no way to communicate it to you? How about a baby? An autistic child? My dog is responsible enough to have rights. She's responsible enough not to run into the road, so she has the right not to wear a chain. She's responsible enough not to take a dump in the house, so she has the right to an unlocked backdoor she can open by herself. She's responsible enough not to drink from the toilet, so she has the right to a waterbowl.

and tough **** for the people whose lives it could save?

Yes. Unless they want to be test subjects themselves.

So, they have to be tested somehow, and if you aren't willing to, then we're going to use the cute little bunnies.
We can't go releasing a shampoo only to find out it is horribly reactive and causes your eyes to disolve, now can we?

No they don't.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

No they don't.

You rate an eternity of (a specific) disease free humanity below the lives of a handful of barely intelligent domesticated animals?




Animal testing isn't cool, isn't fun, isn't a nice thing to do. But it's an evil that ultimately can and does lead to the saving and enrichment from beyond all hope for thousands upon thousands of people.

[PerpetualBurn]

I would hate to think how little a vet could do for my pets if it weren't for the research conducted on test subjects. More animals are saved by vivisection's products than are lost in the method. Not to mention the human life saved.

And it's pretty pointless to use terms like "objective rights" over animals. When have we ever had an objective right to anything?

[coheneran]

I would hate to think how little a vet could do for my pets if it weren't for the research conducted on test subjects. More animals are saved by vivisection's products than are lost in the method. Not to mention the human life saved.

That's not true. If you go to any of the breeding farms for all sorts of test animals, and ask them what they do with surplus "stock", they'll tell you, and trust me, those dogs ain't going to the nearest kennels to be put up for adoption.

And it's pretty pointless to use terms like "objective rights" over animals. When have we ever had an objective right to anything?

Supposedly we all have an objective right to life and liberty (as well as lotsa other stuff).

[Der Übermensch]

No they don't.

So you would support the distribution of products that have the potentiality of being dangerous and causing unknown reactions and diseases because they weren't tested?

[PerpetualBurn]

That's not true. If you go to any of the breeding farms for all sorts of test animals, and ask them what they do with surplus "stock", they'll tell you, and trust me, those dogs ain't going to the nearest kennels to be put up for adoption.

No...it's actually true that the medicines produced save the lives of huge numbers of animals.

Supposedly we all have an objective right to life and liberty (as well as lotsa other stuff).

I have no idea what you're talking about. You have no basis to make this claim whilst claiming we can call shotgun on the right to test on animals.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

That's not true. If you go to any of the breeding farms for all sorts of test animals, and ask them what they do with surplus "stock", they'll tell you, and trust me, those dogs ain't going to the nearest kennels to be put up for adoption.

That's not the scientists' fault, that's the godamn farmer's fault.


Supposedly we all have an objective right to life and liberty (as well as lotsa other stuff).

I certaintly don't believe that, i doubt pb does either (we tend to agree on a lot of stuff?)

[pedro durruti]

Humans are the highest priority. If we needed nine million cat lives in order to cure cancer, then so be it.

[coheneran]

So you would support the distribution of products that have the potentiality of being dangerous and causing unknown reactions and diseases because they weren't tested?

No, I'd just do away with those products. Full of crap anyway. Use soap like normal people, you don't need triple-action two-in-one buy-one-get-one-free shampoo and conditioner to be clean. You don't even need to take a shower every week (let alone day) to be clean.

No...it's actually true that the medicines produced save the lives of huge numbers of animals.

Considering scientific method is long drawn out and requires lots of test subjects to be on the safe side, I'd say about fifty dogs die for every dog that gets saved.

I have no idea what you're talking about. You have no basis to make this claim whilst claiming we can call shotgun on the right to test on animals.

Actually, what I'm saying is that we can't call shotgun on animal experimentation. We have no right to hurt other beings for our own benefit.

That's not the scientists' fault, that's the godamn farmer's fault.

The farmer's part of the same industry. The SS soldiers who caught the Jews on the border crossing are as bad as the doctors who pulled the lever to release gas into the chambers.

Humans are the highest priority. If we needed nine million cat lives in order to cure cancer, then so be it.

We have no right to commit genocide in order to save life.

Onto your example, cancer is caused by the lifestyle we live. We can't cure it, we can only prevent it. A truly vegan lifestyle is far healthier than your typical modern lifestyle, and all the vegans I know are rarely ill, and never seriously.

Also, do nine million dead cats only count as 1 million dead cats?

[Smokey D]

Stop anthropomorphising. Animals don't have an understanding of death like us so you can't call killing them genocide. You can't even call it cruel, if you aren't causing them excessive pain.

Onto your example, cancer is caused by the lifestyle we live. We can't cure it, we can only prevent it. A truly vegan lifestyle is far healthier than your typical modern lifestyle, and all the vegans I know are rarely ill, and never seriously.


Bullshit. Cancer is a genetic thing unleashed by environmental factors. Your anecdotal comments on veganism prove nothing.

[coheneran]

Stop anthropomorphising. Animals don't have an understanding of death like us so you can't call killing them genocide. You can't even call it cruel, if you aren't causing them excessive pain.

Prove to me they don't understand what death means.

Hold on, they try as hard as us to survive, the only difference between us and them when it comes to death is that we have a religious take on it which they may or may not have.

Bullshit. Cancer is a genetic thing unleashed by environmental factors. Your anecdotal comments on veganism prove nothing.

I didn't think much on it before I posted it, but yes, I'll change what I said: Cancer is unleashed by environmental factors that are directly to do with our lifestyles.

I've never heard of one death from malnutrition in a vegan because of lack of meat/dairy, but I've heard about lots of people who died from a heart attack due to eating too much meat and thus having too much cholesterol. It's pretty much a fact, no matter how much nutritionists want to whine about it, that veganism is healthier, cheaper and more environmentally sustainable than diets that involve consuming animal products.

[Africa]

Wait, of course animals don't have a religious take on death. Don't they not even know what it is? They're just reacting instictively to aversive stimuli, I don't think they actually know what happens when their heart stops.

[Smokey D]

Prove to me they don't understand what death means.

Only a couple of animals are self-aware, and we tend to find killing them abhorent.


Hold on, they try as hard as us to survive, the only difference between us and them when it comes to death is that we have a religious take on it which they may or may not have.

They try as hard instinctually. We have put in place a system of beliefs around it. We can be scared of death, not merely of dying.

I didn't think much on it before I posted it, but yes, I'll change what I said: Cancer is unleashed by environmental factors that are directly to do with our lifestyles.

And genetics. People got cancer before the modern world turned up.


I've never heard of one death from malnutrition in a vegan because of lack of meat/dairy, but I've heard about lots of people who died from a heart attack due to eating too much meat and thus having too much cholesterol. It's pretty much a fact, no matter how much nutritionists want to whine about it, that veganism is healthier, cheaper and more environmentally sustainable than diets that involve consuming animal products.

Way to strawman. I've heard of plenty of cases where people have died as a result from a vegan diet, though it's not usually outright malnutrition.

By the way, trained nutritionists know more about what constitutes a healthy diet than you do.

[pedro durruti]

Look, I'm just as sympathetic towards animals as you are, and if there was another way to discover cures and whatnot, then I'd love it. But humans shouldn't be dying every day from a multitude of diseases because we've got a soft spot for rats.

[Smokey D]

Should we kill disease carrying mosquitos?

Also, should we even try and cure bacteria and the like? I mean, they're living creatures too. They're feelings might be hurt.

[PerpetualBurn]

Considering scientific method is long drawn out and requires lots of test subjects to be on the safe side, I'd say about fifty dogs die for every dog that gets saved.

Absolute crap. You just pulled that out your arse. Veterinary medicine is a lucrative business. Every time someone takes a new puppy to be vaccinated, it benefits from vivisection.


Actually, what I'm saying is that we can't call shotgun on animal experimentation. We have no right to hurt other beings for our own benefit.

Yeah, and I call BS on this crap as well. There's absolutely no reason why I can't do that. And since it's so insanely advantageous to humanity and animal kind as well, we do.

Onto your example, cancer is caused by the lifestyle we live. We can't cure it, we can only prevent it. A truly vegan lifestyle is far healthier than your typical modern lifestyle, and all the vegans I know are rarely ill, and never seriously.

I actually don't believe you can mean what you just said unless you know nothing about biology.

[pedro durruti]

Should we kill disease carrying mosquitos?

Also, should we even try and cure bacteria and the like? I mean, they're living creatures too. They're feelings might be hurt.
WHAT?

[coheneran]

Wait, of course animals don't have a religious take on death. Don't they not even know what it is? They're just reacting instictively to aversive stimuli, I don't think they actually know what happens when their heart stops.

Do you know what will happen when your heart stops?

Only a couple of animals are self-aware, and we tend to find killing them abhorent.

Prove to me that every wolf isn't self-aware.

They try as hard instinctually. We have put in place a system of beliefs around it. We can be scared of death, not merely of dying.

Again, prove it.

And genetics. People got cancer before the modern world turned up.

Of course they have, but I'm pretty sure (though feel free to correct me) that cancer rates are the highest they've ever been (keeping in mind that cancer as we perceive it is obviously not how it was perceived in the middle ages).

Way to strawman. I've heard of plenty of cases where people have died as a result from a vegan diet, though it's not usually outright malnutrition.

Sorry, I didn't mean that everyone who eats meat ends up dying of heart failure, but it significantly adds to the risk.

By the way, trained nutritionists know more about what constitutes a healthy diet than you do.

I may not know about nutrition biology, but I know at least fifty vegans who are healthier than the first fifty non-vegans I can think of that I know.

Look, I'm just as sympathetic towards animals as you are, and if there was another way to discover cures and whatnot, then I'd love it. But humans shouldn't be dying every day from a multitude of diseases because we've got a soft spot for rats.

Should animals be dying every day because we have a soft spot for humans?

Should we kill disease carrying mosquitos?


Also, should we even try and cure bacteria and the like? I mean, they're living creatures too. They're feelings might be hurt.

When something is directly affecting your chances of survival by attacking you, that's a wholly different situation to attacking a million somethings to improve your life, whether by medication or cosmetics.

Absolute crap. You just pulled that out your arse. Veterinary medicine is a lucrative business. Every time someone takes a new puppy to be vaccinated, it benefits from vivisection.

Is it okay to experiment on a million humans now because in the near or far future five million humans and animals will benefit from those deaths?

Yeah, and I call BS on this crap as well. There's absolutely no reason why I can't do that. And since it's so insanely advantageous to humanity and animal kind as well, we do.

OK, so if someone is pissing me off, or has something I want, I have a right to hurt her because it will be advantageous to me?

[pedro durruti]

Should animals be dying every day because we have a soft spot for humans?
So you favor saving animals more than saving humans?

[PerpetualBurn]

Is it okay to experiment on a million humans now because in the near or far future five million humans and animals will benefit from those deaths?

Humans have rights that animals don't.

OK, so if someone is pissing me off, or has something I want, I have a right to hurt her because it will be advantageous to me?

See response supra.

[Africa]

Hmm what's the difference between a non-self-aware baby and a non-self-aware animal.

[pedro durruti]

Is this a dead baby joke?

[coheneran]

So you favor saving animals more than saving humans?

I favour neither. I favour not being sadistic hypocrites and killing billions of animals every year for our sole benefit.

Humans have rights that animals don't.

Only ones we give ourselves and refuse to give animals; Germans have rights the Jews don't.

[Smokey D]

Prove to me that every wolf isn't self-aware.

They can't recognise themselves as individual animals, for one.

Again, prove it.

Every bit of animal psychology ever printed. Since you're arguing against science, you prove it.

Of course they have, but I'm pretty sure (though feel free to correct me) that cancer rates are the highest they've ever been (keeping in mind that cancer as we perceive it is obviously not how it was perceived in the middle ages).

Cancer is typically an old age disease. More people are living to old age, so more people are afflicted by it. If that counts as lifestyle, then maybe you're point is useful, but it seems pretty trite to do so.

Sorry, I didn't mean that everyone who eats meat ends up dying of heart failure, but it significantly adds to the risk.

And failure to eat certain meat products will badly damage your immune system and seriously compromise a child's development. Unless you're some rich whitey with a self-righteous complex eating foods fortified by first world food science.

When something is directly affecting your chances of survival by attacking you, that's a wholly different situation to attacking a million somethings to improve your life, whether by medication or cosmetics.

My survival chances and a lot of other peoples are directly influenced by what they eat. And besides, it's a little rich to complain about animals being self-aware and it being cruel to kill them when you can punish them for doing what animals do.


I may not know about nutrition biology, but I know at least fifty vegans who are healthier than the first fifty non-vegans I can think of that I know.

Anecdotes < clinical trials.

[coheneran]

They can't recognise themselves as individual animals, for one.



Every bit of animal psychology ever printed. Since you're arguing against science, you prove it.

Don't turn this on me, I'm not the one making claims nothing can back up. I'm not saying all animals are self-aware or feel empathy (though even if they weren't I still wouldn't see that as justification for killing something), I'm saying that we have no way to tell, and that certain animals, at times non-domesticated ones, have shown signs of feeling empathy towards human beings or other animals (for example when a wolf pack raises a human child).

Cancer is typically an old age disease. More people are living to old age, so more people are afflicted by it. If that counts as lifestyle, then maybe you're point is useful, but it seems pretty trite to do so.

OK, I'll drop that point since I don't know enough about historic and modern medicine to argue it, but keep in mind that it was an example, not a grounding, for my argument.

And failure to eat certain meat products will badly damage your immune system and seriously compromise a child's development. Unless you're some rich whitey with a self-righteous complex eating foods fortified by first world food science.

No, not really. Most of the vegans I know eat out of skips and live on whatever they can find thrown into a pot with some curry powder (so kind of like a student but even cheaper). I even know this one guy in Israel, he's about 50 years old, doesn't eat anything cooked, only raw vegetables, I've seen him have a watermelon for a meal, or a turnip, or whatever, but always raw. He rarely drinks water since he gets loads of moisture from the fruit and veg. He's probably one of the healthiest fifty year olds I've ever met.

My survival chances and a lot of other peoples are directly influenced by what they eat. And besides, it's a little rich to complain about animals being self-aware and it being cruel to kill them when you can punish them for doing what animals do.

If you're refering to my dog, we only punish her as far as you'd punish a child who's run into the road; it's to teach her. She's been raised using pretty much the same methods (though of course not the same means) as a child.

Anecdotes < clinical trials.

Whatever man. If every scientist kept denying global warming, would you be saying hurricanes < scientific proof? I don't know much about nutrition and I don't know what the official scientific facts released by WHO on nutrition is, but I know a hell of a lot of vegans who are healthy and happy with their diet.

[Smokey D]

Don't turn this on me, I'm not the one making claims nothing can back up. I'm not saying all animals are self-aware or feel empathy (though even if they weren't I still wouldn't see that as justification for killing something), I'm saying that we have no way to tell, and that certain animals, at times non-domesticated ones, have shown signs of feeling empathy towards human beings or other animals (for example when a wolf pack raises a human child).

There is absolutely no evidence that the vast majority of species are even in the remotest self-aware, and it is an example of the pathetic fallacy to equate wolf packs raising a child with the human emotion of empathy. It has never been a scientific practise to believe lack of the negative proves the affirmative.

By the way, more animals die in crop farming than in slaughterhouses.

No, not really. Most of the vegans I know eat out of skips and live on whatever they can find thrown into a pot with some curry powder (so kind of like a student but even cheaper). I even know this one guy in Israel, he's about 50 years old, doesn't eat anything cooked, only raw vegetables, I've seen him have a watermelon for a meal, or a turnip, or whatever, but always raw. He rarely drinks water since he gets loads of moisture from the fruit and veg. He's probably one of the healthiest fifty year olds I've ever met.

Another B12 study was conducted in rural Africa, partially backed by the U.S. based National Cattlemen's Beef Association, which demonstrated a dramatic improvement in the health of individuals who had, prior to the study, been on diets completely lacking in animal products. The study concluded that the added nutrients, especially vitamin B12 contained in the meat and milk improved the health of the children in the study.[43]


If you're refering to my dog, we only punish her as far as you'd punish a child who's run into the road; it's to teach her. She's been raised using pretty much the same methods (though of course not the same means) as a child.


I was talking about slapping a mosquito for biting you.


Whatever man. If every scientist kept denying global warming, would you be saying hurricanes < scientific proof?

If they could supply the scientific evidence, yes.

I don't know much about nutrition and I don't know what the official scientific facts released by WHO on nutrition is, but I know a hell of a lot of vegans who are healthy and happy with their diet.

In their rich white countries with first world medical systems to catch them when it goes pear shaped.

[coheneran]

There is absolutely no evidence that the vast majority of species are even in the remotest self-aware, and it is an example of the pathetic fallacy to equate wolf packs raising a child with the human emotion of empathy. It has never been a scientific practise to believe lack of the negative proves the affirmative.

Is there any evidence that clearly shows they aren't? I mean, you don't know if another human is self-aware unless she communicates "philosophical" (for lack of better word) thoughts to you on her self-awareness, but how can an animal communicate this to you?

By the way, more animals die in crop farming than in slaughterhouses.

Source please. Also, considering that about 50% of seed and grain crops go to feeding animals destined for the butcher's knife...

Besides which, I don't advocate using animals for crop farming. That's still exploiting the animal for our own benefit.

I was talking about slapping a mosquito for biting you.

Would you kick a dog if it tried to bite you? I would.

If they could supply the scientific evidence, yes.

Does "Vegans not dying of malnutrition" count as scientific evidence, or do I have to have a PhD to ascertain that?

In their rich white countries with first world medical systems to catch them when it goes pear shaped.

Not really, most of them also refuse to use modern Western medicines because a massive majority of those medicines (actually, probably all of them, at some point or another) are tested on animals, and are therefore not vegan. Yet they're still not dying, they're very very healthy.

[Smokey D]

Is there any evidence that clearly shows they aren't? I mean, you don't know if another human is self-aware unless she communicates "philosophical" (for lack of better word) thoughts to you on her self-awareness, but how can an animal communicate this to you?

Humans aren't considered self-aware unless they demonstrate knowledge of themselves as seperate entities. One of the tests for this is looking in a mirror -- we know what we see is ourselves. Animals, barring chimps, dolphins and elephants, don't understand this.

And as I said, it is not the practise of science that a lack of evidence of the negative should prove the affirmative. Because we lack any evidence to say they are self-aware, science does not consider them self-aware any more than it does a rock.

Source please. Also, considering that about 50% of seed and grain crops go to feeding animals destined for the butcher's knife...


Some scientists dispute the assumption that a vegan lifestyle totally prevents the unnecessary death of animals. Steven Davis, professor of animal science at Oregon State University, claims that the number of wild animals killed in crop production is greater than those killed in ruminant-pasture production.[31]

Would you kick a dog if it tried to bite you? I would.


Except you have now killed an animal for simply doing what it must do to survive. How specist. You don't kill humans for being humans.

Does "Vegans not dying of malnutrition" count as scientific evidence, or do I have to have a PhD to ascertain that?

Given that there's evidence a meat diet isn't bad for you and is many ways better for you, then you shouldn't ignore the results. Of course, it's only good for you provided you aren't an idiot and you don't eat 500g of steak every night for dinner.


Not really, most of them also refuse to use modern Western medicines because a massive majority of those medicines (actually, probably all of them, at some point or another) are tested on animals, and are therefore not vegan. Yet they're still not dying, they're very very healthy.

The entire system is designed to prevent people from dying in the west. When people live vegan diets in countries without the same sort of resources, they have the unfortunate tendency of dying.

And if you're claiming the vegans you know are healthier than the rest of us without getting some sort of B12 supplement, you're either insane or you know some very unhealthy meat eaters.

[coheneran]

Humans aren't considered self-aware unless they demonstrate knowledge of themselves as seperate entities. One of the tests for this is looking in a mirror -- we know what we see is ourselves. Animals, barring chimps, dolphins and elephants, don't understand this.

That doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that the animal recognises its duplicate image. Any insight into a creature's self-awareness through that experience is just speculation.

And as I said, it is not the practise of science that a lack of evidence of the negative should prove the affirmative. Because we lack any evidence to say they are self-aware, science does not consider them self-aware any more than it does a rock.

It's not my practice to kill an autistic child because she does not show proof of self-awareness.

Except you have now killed an animal for simply doing what it must do to survive. How specist. You don't kill humans for being humans.

Now who's building a strawman? I killed an animal to protect myself from direct attack.

Given that there's evidence a meat diet isn't bad for you and is many ways better for you, then you shouldn't ignore the results. Of course, it's only good for you provided you aren't an idiot and you don't eat 500g of steak every night for dinner.

Well, we don't need meat to live, eating meat is bad for the environment considering the current situation, eating meat can sometimes be bad for you, and we waste a stupid amount of energy on sustaining our meat-eating diets that are ultimately unsustainable and cruel on the animals we eat. It's just not necessary to eat meat anymore.

The entire system is designed to prevent people from dying in the west. When people live vegan diets in countries without the same sort of resources, they have the unfortunate tendency of dying.

Not really.

Besides, how is the system affecting your health when all you eat is vegetables from a skip and stolen soy/rice milk?

And if you're claiming the vegans you know are healthier than the rest of us without getting some sort of B12 supplement, you're either insane or you know some very unhealthy meat eaters.

The vegans I know here drink soy milk or something similar (like eating tofu or soy), the dude in Israel, I've no idea how he gets B12, but he's still alive and he hasn't got anaemia.

[Smokey D]

That doesn't prove anything beyond the fact that the animal recognises its duplicate image. Any insight into a creature's self-awareness through that experience is just speculation.

Speculation is better than blind assumptions.


It's not my practice to kill an autistic child because she does not show proof of self-awareness.

Autistic children are extremely self-aware and usually very intelligent. They lack the appropriate means to express this.

Now who's building a strawman? I killed an animal to protect myself from direct attack.


It attacking you is the same as it surviving. By denying it the ability to feed you have condemned it to death.

Not really.

Besides, how is the system affecting your health when all you eat is vegetables from a skip and stolen soy/rice milk?

By producing those goods for consumption. Even if you get them from the bin, they still needed to be made for you.

Well, we don't need meat to live, eating meat is bad for the environment considering the current situation, eating meat can sometimes be bad for you, and we waste a stupid amount of energy on sustaining our meat-eating diets that are ultimately unsustainable and cruel on the animals we eat. It's just not necessary to eat meat anymore.

Meat's not bad for the environment, if it's done right. Meat is extremely helpful for survival, and it's only bad for you if you eat a large amount. If you eat a lot of carrots, you'll poison yourself too.

Killing an animal outright isn't cruel. Certain meat practises are cruel, but advocating a meat rich diet isn't the same as advocating current slaughterhouse practise. And there's nothing unsustainable about it if you do it right.

The vegans I know here drink soy milk or something similar (like eating tofu or soy), the dude in Israel, I've no idea how he gets B12, but he's still alive and he hasn't got anaemia.

Soy milk doesn't naturally contain B12, which means its fortified. B12 is an animal product. Whoops, someone's not really a vegan.

B12 deficiency does all sorts of crazy things to your health and immune system besides anaemia.

[coheneran]

Speculation is better than blind assumptions.

I did not make blind assumptions, my point was that we have no way to make certain, so we're just speculating because it's easier to claim ignorance.

Autistic children are extremely self-aware and usually very intelligent. They lack the appropriate means to express this.

How do we know autistic children are self-aware if they have no way to express it? Do we put them in front of a mirror with a dot on their forehead?

It attacking you is the same as it surviving. By denying it the ability to feed you have condemned it to death.

Ok, then I'd condemn the mozzie to death. This doesn't serve your argument at all, because we don't need to eat animals to survive.

By producing those goods for consumption. Even if you get them from the bin, they still needed to be made for you.

Fair enough, but we still don't need the meat industry to create those products.

Meat's not bad for the environment, if it's done right. Meat is extremely helpful for survival, and it's only bad for you if you eat a large amount. If you eat a lot of carrots, you'll poison yourself too.

The meat industry uses an astronomical amount of grain just to feed the livestock. I saw a statistic once that was something like, "The amount of land it takes to feed one carnivore could feed ten vegans."

Killing an animal outright isn't cruel. Certain meat practises are cruel, but advocating a meat rich diet isn't the same as advocating current slaughterhouse practise. And there's nothing unsustainable about it if you do it right.

Is killing a human outright not cruel then?

It's very unsustainable if we're trying to feed the world.

Soy milk doesn't naturally contain B12, which means its fortified. B12 is an animal product. Whoops, someone's not really a vegan.

B12 isn't made by animals or plants, it's made by bacteria, it can be totally synthesized in a laboratory. The bacteria that contains the enzymes that can synthesize B12 exist in the human mouth (though not in such a number as to be able to supply 1-2 micrograms a day, I don't think), as well as in soil (which then plants acquire some of, and which animals eat, and since they eat so much more plants than us (and grass), it stands to reason, they would consume more B12. Also, your liver stores about 65%-70% of the B12 you consume and it's not excreted much at all, so your body can live off the stored B12 for years and years, apparantly.

B12 deficiency does all sorts of crazy things to your health and immune system besides anaemia.

Anaemia and nerve damage are the worst case scenarios in B12 deficiency, but the most common symptoms are diarrhoea, PMS, sore tongue, depression.

[Smokey D]

I did not make blind assumptions, my point was that we have no way to make certain, so we're just speculating because it's easier to claim ignorance.

Saying 'maybe they are something that they have never demonstrated themselves to be' is a blind assumption. Maybe that rock over there that looks, smells, feels and tastes like a rock is actually a tortoise. I don't know, it's never demonstrated anything of a remotely tortoise-like persuasion, but it could.


How do we know autistic children are self-aware if they have no way to express it? Do we put them in front of a mirror with a dot on their forehead?

Because there have been many tests and trials which have proven the self-awareness of autistic children.

Ok, then I'd condemn the mozzie to death. This doesn't serve your argument at all, because we don't need to eat animals to survive.

It is in our biology to eat meat. Eating meat was one of the prime drivers to the evolution of our big brains. I'd say the consumption of meat is pretty much part of being human.

Fair enough, but we still don't need the meat industry to create those products.


Crop farming is not nice to animals either.


The meat industry uses an astronomical amount of grain just to feed the livestock. I saw a statistic once that was something like, "The amount of land it takes to feed one carnivore could feed ten vegans."

Yeah, but there's plenty of land available for the production of meat.

Is killing a human outright not cruel then?


Yes, because you're denying them the chance to exercise their self-awareness.


It's very unsustainable if we're trying to feed the world.


We already have enough food to feed the world more than once over.

B12 isn't made by animals or plants, it's made by bacteria, it can be totally synthesized in a laboratory. The bacteria that contains the enzymes that can synthesize B12 exist in the human mouth (though not in such a number as to be able to supply 1-2 micrograms a day, I don't think), as well as in soil (which then plants acquire some of, and which animals eat, and since they eat so much more plants than us (and grass), it stands to reason, they would consume more B12. Also, your liver stores about 65%-70% of the B12 you consume and it's not excreted much at all, so your body can live off the stored B12 for years and years, apparantly.

Yes, but you have to have it in the first place. How many starving Africans do you think have access to multiviatimins. See my comment on veganism being a rich middle class practise.


Anaemia and nerve damage are the worst case scenarios in B12 deficiency, but the most common symptoms are diarrhoea, PMS, sore tongue, depression.

A B12 deficiency inhibits foetal and childhood development, reduces the strength of the immune system leading to preventable death by other illnesses, damage to blood supply and systems relating to it and massive nerve death. Not to long a ago, a NZ vegan family was convicted of negligent homocide by failing to provide their infant son with enough viatimin B12 as the mother had none in her breast milk owing to her diet.

[PerpetualBurn]

Very few animals are self-aware.

The most basic test for this is the dot test. A red dot is discreetly placed on the forehead of the subject, and then a mirror is introduced. If the subject demonstrates that they recognise a change to themselves (i.e. a new dot that shouldn't be there) then they have some degree of self-awareness.

Most recently, elephants have been shown to hold this trait when it was previously thought only to exist in primates and dolphins.

It doesn't happen in wolves. Wolves have no concept of themselves as an individual entity and if you would like to hypothesise otherwise then it is up to you to provide a reasonable method for testing and demonstrating your hypothesis.

[veggie 3.14]

/Falling into deep, deep love with The Smiths and Nick Drake.

Heh.

How're you all?

[PerpetualBurn]

I've never really liked The Smiths much. I just don't see the hype.

Nick Drake on the other hand is amazing.

I've been listening to an insane amount of 65 Days Of Static recently. Stupidly good.

[The_Passenger]

I've never really liked The Smiths much. I just don't see the hype.

Nick Drake on the other hand is amazing.


Heh, I'm the other way round. I've never been understand what's so great about Drake but I think the Smiths are excellent.

[veggie 3.14]

Hahaha.

I love Morrissey's lyrics, and Johnny Marr's guitar parts, which always fit brilliantly with the song.

Nick Drake, on the other hand, is just awesome.

[AlienEater]

I don't like the Smiths and Nick Drake is nice.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I've never really liked The Smiths much. I just don't see the hype.

Nick Drake on the other hand is amazing.

I've been listening to an insane amount of 65 Days Of Static recently. Stupidly good.

Never heard any

fancy sending me some?

I have a full back catalogue of A silver Mt Zion and Do Make Say Think (and much GYBE) if you fancybeing capitalist about it

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm happy to trade music. You'll have to wait a couple of days till I get back from Uni since I have a bandwidth limit here and I need to watch Scrubs online.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I'm happy to trade music. You'll have to wait a couple of days till I get back from Uni since I have a bandwidth limit here and I need to watch Scrubs online.

no problem

[veggie 3.14]

Gonna get an Electro Harmonix Memory Man for Xmas.

Yargh!

[Yield]

Hey, does anyone know how to declare war in Nationstates?

[Apollyon]

Sup guys?

[Mr. Ron]

Not much, just eating some crappy pizza and Some R.A. Salvator.


My first semester is over and I get a month off. :cool:

[Apollyon]

There's no such thing as a crappy pizza. Pizza is the nectar of the gods.

[Mr. Ron]

Nah, there's this one place by my house that excels at messing the delicate nature of pizza up. I just get it because it's cheap, I'm broke and I'm too starved to care.


I wish I had some Dominoes or some pizza hut.

[Hababi]

Come to Pittsburgh; GREAT pizza place called Aeillo's in Squirrel Hill; it's actually Dan Marino's favorite, too :D

[Mr. Ron]

NY pizza ftw.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Hey, does anyone know how to declare war in Nationstates?

you can't that's kinda one of their things

[Yield]

you can't that's kinda one of their things

That's what I thought.

[Iskandar]

Hey, does anyone know how to declare war in Nationstates?
One cannot.

I feel sick.

[PerpetualBurn]

I got bored of Nationstates.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I got bored of Nationstates.

Snap

[The_Passenger]

I'm starting to get bored of Nationstates now, it's got to the point where I don't even remember to check it regularly, especially now that the MX Forums bit only has 20 or so nations.

[Yield]

I'm starting to get bored of Nationstates now, it's got to the point where I don't even remember to check it regularly, especially now that the MX Forums bit only has 20 or so nations.

Yeah, I got bored with my first nation. But I felt like making another yesterday, because the first one was a parody of my views.

[pedro durruti]

One cannot.

I feel sick.
Haha, you really must have been pretty drunk.

[Hababi]

I played basketball for 1 1/2 hours today...Now my shoulders are sore :(

[Iskandar]

Haha, you really must have been pretty drunk.
I was, and I was up all night too.

[veggie 3.14]

I played basketball for 1 1/2 hours today...Now my shoulders are sore :(

I love playing basketball.

I play for maybe... an hour and a half a day, maybe less?

There isn't a whole lot to do in school.

Gotta love rejecting people, though...

[Hababi]

I love playing basketball.

I play for maybe... an hour and a half a day, maybe less?

There isn't a whole lot to do in school.

Gotta love rejecting people, though...

I used to be tall enough to do that consistently...Then I stopped growing, while most everyone else kept growing. So now I'm just average height. I still have a good eye for steals, though.

My free throw motion is improving :cool:

[coheneran]

I'm back!

Back in black.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I'm back!

Back in black.

omgz wtf aNaRCHy

[Iskandar]

I am an antichrist
I am an anarchist
Don't know what I want
But I know how to get it
I wanna destroy the passerby

'Cause I wanna be Anarchy
Now don't worry

Anarchy for the UK
It's coming sometime and maybe
I give a wrong time stop a traffic line
Your future dream is a shopping scheme

'Cause I wanna be Anarchy
In the city

How many ways to get what you want
I use the best
I use the rest
I use the N.M.E
I use Anarchy

'Cause I wanna be Anarchy
It's the only way to be

Is this the M.P.L.A or
Is this the U.D.A or
Is this the I.R.A
I thought it was the UK
Or just another country
Another council tenancy

I wanna be Anarchy
And I wanna be Anarchy

[coheneran]

I never realised those lyrics were that political.

[PerpetualBurn]

I missed you Coheneran. The anarchy thread isn't nearly ideological enough without you.

I've been listening to The Disintegration Loops for a long long time. It's a bit obscene really.

[coheneran]

I just listened to that 80meg one yesterday! They're soooo good!

Did you know the BBC's been linking their articles to indymedia articles, for people who want more information? That means the BBC articles were based on the indymedia ones!

[PerpetualBurn]

Hmmm...

Perhaps it's the internet's Private Eye?

I'm still not convinced though.

[coheneran]

Why, because they're independent of any funding?

It's arguable that the mainstream papers aren't independent, but leaving that aside (since I lack the information to do anything on it other than speculate), indymedia's clearly more independent than Metro and the London Paper. If someone's willing to pay the millions it costs to employ staff writers and print millions of copies to distribute around London every day for free, they've got a hidden agenda.

[veggie 3.14]

I used to be tall enough to do that consistently...Then I stopped growing, while most everyone else kept growing. So now I'm just average height. I still have a good eye for steals, though.

My free throw motion is improving :cool:

:lol:

I'm six foot three, and growing every day.

I love taking fadeaways. :cool:

On a different note, got mah weed today!

Should make the last day of school a whole lot more interesting.