PNWI Community Thread version 3.0 (KEEP REFRIGERATED AT ALL TIMES)

[Iskandar]

No, by having the government mandate things, you are showing a distrust in the individual.Those individuals want those language policies, or else the Bloc wouldn't be in power.

Besides this means little coming from you, who wants government to mandate like every "moral" issue ever.

[YDtoad]

Those individuals want those language policies, or else the Bloc wouldn't be in power.

Yeah, those people want the government to be imperious (because they're insecure about their ability to maintain their culture the way most others do). That's kinda what I'm saying.


Besides this means little coming from you, who wants government to mandate like every "moral" issue ever.

Hardly. I think that sodomy laws are pretty stupid, the same as you do.

[Iskandar]

Like Steve said, if people found it important enough, they would have not needed government force to preserve it.Or they find it important enough to necessitate government.

[YDtoad]

Or they find it important enough to necessitate government.

Important enough to force everyone to conform to their view of culture?

Yeah, they obviously view their silly little Francophone culture important enough to have the government waste time forcing everyone to act their way.

[Iskandar]

Important enough to force everyone to conform to their view of culture?That's not what they do. Don't be ignorant.

Yeah, they obviously view their silly little Francophone culture important enough to have the government waste time forcing everyone to act their way.Francophobe.

[YDtoad]

That's not what they do. Don't be ignorant.

How is it not what they do????? Why can't they just preserve their culture on an individual level, the same way everyone else does? Don't give me that crap about how important it is. If it's important, they should be able to do it without the government.

[Iskandar]

How is it not what they do?????How is that what they do? They don't go around beating up anyone who speaks English. In fact, most urban Quebecois speak English to Anglophones.

[YDtoad]

How is that what they do? They don't go around beating up anyone who speaks English.

No they just have the government fine anyone who dares not confirm. Not all that different.

[Iskandar]

No they just have the government fine anyone who dares not confirm. Not all that different.Like not having both languages, in a bilingual society, on a sign? What a travesty. It's fascism.

[YDtoad]

Like not having both languages, in a bilingual society, on a sign?


Like not having French dominant on the sign. What business of the governments is it?

[Iskandar]

Like not having French dominant on the sign. What business of the governments is it?It's unfair for English to be dominant when French and English have equal status.

[YDtoad]

It's unfair for English to be dominant when French and English have equal status.

So doesn't it make sense then that the people can manage this for themselves without big government shaking its fist?

[Iskandar]

So doesn't it make sense then that the people can manage this for themselves without big government shaking its fist?Don't give me this big government bs. You're not an advocate of small government.

Do you think every single business in Quebec will voluntarily given French and English equal status on their signs?

[YDtoad]

Don't give me this big government bs. You're not an advocate of small government.

I'm an advocate of government involvement where it's needed. It's not needed in language legislation.


Do you think every single business in Quebec will voluntarily given French and English equal status on their signs?

So what if they don't? If there's enough of a sentiment, then that business will be boycotted and will either change or go under. Pretty simple, really. What if a business in Philly had everything in Spanish? They probably wouldn't last. That's how the market works. That's how freedom works.

[Iskandar]

I'm an advocate of government involvement where it's needed. It's not needed in language legislation.Yeah, because language equality will achieve itself with one province vs the rest of Canada.
So what if they don't? If there's enough of a sentiment, then that business will be boycotted and will either change or go under. Pretty simple, really. What if a business in Philly had everything in Spanish? They probably wouldn't last. That's how the market works. That's how freedom works.How spectacularly naive.

[YDtoad]

Yeah, because language equality will achieve itself with one province vs the rest of Canada.
So what if it doesn't?



How spectacularly naive.

If there wouldn't be enough of a response then there isn't a cause to even consider such legislation.

[Iskandar]

So what if it doesn't?Language equality is kinda a big deal in a bilingual nation.
If there wouldn't be enough of a response then there isn't a cause to even consider such legislation.It's not about that, it's about fairness.

Btw, when did you get to be a neoliberal:
That's how the market works. That's how freedom works.Lol.

[YDtoad]

Language equality is kinda a big deal in a bilingual nation.
That didn't answer the question.


It's not about that, it's about fairness.


How is it fair to mandate that people display their signs in very large French?


Btw, when did you get to be a neoliberal:
Lol.

:lol: I consider myself modestly capitalist.

[Iskandar]

How is it fair to mandate that people display their signs in very large French?
If you followed my arguments, you'd know that the law is that the French cannot be smaller than the English.
:lol: I consider myself modestly capitalist.You sounded like a neoliberal. "The market will take care of the problem."

[YDtoad]

If you followed my arguments, you'd know that the law is that the French cannot be smaller than the English.

Can you point me to the law? We covered it in my linguistics class, and I heard two different things about it.

And again, why can't people take care of that themselves?


You sounded like a neoliberal. "The market will take care of the problem."

Because it works. What would happen if a restaurant refusing to do business in English opened up in Philadelphia?

[Iskandar]

Because it works. What would happen if a restaurant refusing to do business in English opened up in Philadelphia?They might pick up a ton of immigrant business.

[YDtoad]

They might pick up a ton of immigrant business.

Think they'd do enough business to get by, even without a broader reaction against the decision? I don't. And guess what? If they did, it'd show hat the people want it. Why do you dislike letting people make up their own minds???

[Iskandar]

Why do you dislike letting people make up their own minds???Haha, you really think that?

[YDtoad]

Haha, you really think that?

On this issue, absolutely. People should be free to display signs in whatever language they want. If they want to put it in wingdings, let them. It's a sign!

[Iskandar]

On this issue, absolutely. People should be free to display signs in whatever language they want. If they want to put it in wingdings, let them. It's a sign!They can display in any language they want. They just can't have the English more prominent than the French.

[Mr. Ron]

I'm watching Sicko (yeah yeah Moore is an idiot blah blah) and I feel really bad for that 79 year old dude thats still working as a janitor because he can't afford his meds. :^/

[YDtoad]

They can display in any language they want. They just can't have the English more prominent than the French.

Yeah, and the whole point is that it's stupid for the government to mandate that. It restricts freedom.

[Iskandar]

Yeah, and the whole point is that it's stupid for the government to mandate that. It restricts freedom.In the interests of fairness.

[YDtoad]

In the interests of fairness.

Forcing people to display signs in a certain language format isn't fair.

[Iskandar]

Forcing people to display signs in a certain language format isn't fair.It isn't fair that both official languages be displayed.

Um, ok.

[YDtoad]

It isn't fair that both official languages be displayed.

Um, ok.

It isn't fair to force people to do that.

[Iskandar]

It isn't fair to force people to do that.Well, this is going nowhere fast.

[YDtoad]

Well, this is going nowhere fast.

Because if you believe in liberty, it's insanity to believe in having the government mandate the display format of signs. That's definitive big brother. Let people manage their culture on an individual level.

[Iskandar]

Because if you believe in liberty, it's insanity to believe in having the government mandate the display format of signs. That's definitive big brother. Let people manage their culture on an individual level.Drat. I must be a totalitarian.

[YDtoad]

Drat. I must be a totalitarian.

You're certainly not a true social liberal. It's bizarre that you believe in letting doctors murder 9 month children in the womb but not displaying their doctor's office sign in English first and French in smaller letters.

[Iskandar]

You're certainly not a true social liberal.I lol.

[Mr. Ron]

I think you have the wrong idea of what a social liberal is, Steve.

[YDtoad]

I think you have the wrong idea of what a social liberal is, Steve.

I thought it was based on the idea of individual liberty.

[Iskandar]

I thought it was based on the idea of individual liberty.Liberty without fairness is meaningless.

[YDtoad]

Liberty without fairness is meaningless.

Letting people decide for themselves is fair.

[Iskandar]

Letting people decide for themselves is fair.So it's fair to let a murderer decide to kill a baby.

[YDtoad]

So it's fair to let a murderer decide to kill a baby.

That interferes with the rights of another human being. Displaying a sign only in Romanian doesn't.

[Iskandar]

That interferes with the rights of another human being. Displaying a sign only in Romanian doesn't.Language is a right of Quebeckers.

[YDtoad]

Language is a right of Quebeckers.

Ummmm language imperialism is not a right, it's a violation of rights.

"It's our right to take away yours"

[Iskandar]

Ummmm language imperialism is not a right, it's a violation of rights.

"It's our right to take away yours"I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

French and English have equal status in Canada. It is a Charter right. This is about equality, not suppressing English.

[Knifeboy]

I thought it was based on the idea of individual liberty.

forcing stores and companies to use signs with two languages does not infringe on the rights of the individual

in fact, it kinda does the opposite

[YDtoad]

forcing stores and companies to use signs with two languages does not infringe on the rights of the individual

Stores are run by people, whose freedoms are limited.

[Knifeboy]

companies are run by people too?
I don't really think you understand social liberalism

[YDtoad]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

French and English have equal status in Canada. It is a Charter right. This is about equality, not suppressing English.

Giving languages status is stupid.

[Dr Hooch]

Ummmm language imperialism is not a right, it's a violation of rights.

"It's our right to take away yours"

Are you seriously implying that shopkeepers have a right to write the name of their shop in french in a smaller font than english

For a man that doesn't believe in a right not to be tortured you're beyond belief

[Iskandar]

Are you seriously implying that shopkeepers have a right to write the name of their shop in french in a smaller font than englishIn Quebec, even.

[YDtoad]

Are you seriously implying that shopkeepers have a right to write the name of their shop in french in a smaller font than english


Yes! What a trivial and inconsequential thing to have government worry about!

And Dropper, this summarizes the laws:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/news/words/general/001102.shtml

Learn about your own country:smash::smash::smash:


For a man that doesn't believe in a right not to be tortured you're beyond belief

Freedom exists within limitations.

[Dr Hooch]

Yes! What a trivial and inconsequential thing to have government worry about!

I'm not saying i agree with the quebecois government on this (I think it's absolutely pathetic) but there is no fundamental right to sign your shop in any way you please. It's just not a right that people have.

A million people will read one sign. The people being able to understand is more important than one person's inclination for frogbashing.

[Dave de Sylvia]

guys it's really not important

i checked

[The Stig]

This is PNWI. Every insignificant thing gets argues to death here and tempers flare when the anarcho-commies and zero clash.

[Smokey D]

Steve sounds like me now.

He's saying that if the people think it is important to protect their French, it will survive without government force. I agree.

Problem is maybe not enough people think it's important, when there is in fact an objectively important reason to protect it.

I found out that Canada's unemployment rate is actually higher than that of the US. What the hell.

What's your minimum wage?

Also, protection of culture (and thus protecting language, a very important part of culture) might be important, but enforcing pissy laws about what can be enforced on shopfronts and street signs is retarded.

[Reaganista]

you guys have totally ****ed my thread up

[Against Miik!]

Fear not, its still refrigerated

[Reaganista]

ill get this thread back on track
http://eternity8.sempai.org/misc/azngoths.php

[guitrguy]

Does some have a fetish?

[ringworm]

anyone watch "The Universe" marathon yesterday on The History Channel?

twas great, it beats lackluster politics anyday :)

[Hababi]

This is PNWI. Every insignificant thing gets argues to death here and tempers flare when the anarcho-commies and zero clash.

:lol: Don't mistake the !'s for temper. That's just a point of enthusiasm.


Problem is maybe not enough people think it's important, when there is in fact an objectively important reason to protect it.


What would that reason be?

I don't see how the broader canadian government should even let those laws stand. That's Quebec essentially separating itself, culturally, from the rest of Canada. It'd be like if Louisiana wanted to make Creole the dominant language. If Quebec wants to be a French dominant region, let them secede from Canada. Otherwise, let them be Canadian and not Quebecers.

[Against Miik!]

Problem is its Canada

[guitrguy]

anyone watch "The Universe" marathon yesterday on The History Channel?

twas great, it beats lackluster politics anyday :)

I was engulfed by Hellgate: London last night, but I did catch a bit when they were talking about wormholes.

[ringworm]

damn jews :p
http://youtube.com/watch?v=D_TMSMQDjUA



and lol
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GWuJCG1yrMw

[Hababi]

Problem is its Canada

Time to implement my three state solution.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2538/canadacw4.jpg

[guitrguy]

What do you have marked out?

[Hababi]

What do you have marked out?

"Canada"

Because it'd no longer exist. You'd have Canada Proper, Land of Maple Leafs, and Quebec.

[guitrguy]

drop maple, so when its abbreviated its "lol".

[Dr Hooch]

ill get this thread back on track
http://eternity8.sempai.org/misc/azngoths.php

I don't know what to think.

damn jews :p
http://youtube.com/watch?v=D_TMSMQDjUA



I really don't see how the stupid btich's ethnicity matters.

[YDtoad]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=31QQ1gNpAaY&feature=related

[Knifeboy]

what's the point of playing an acoustic when you play it so it sounds like a sh!tty electric

[The Stig]

I've never been a fan of that song to begin with.

[ringworm]

I really don't see how the stupid btich's ethnicity matters.
i thought everyone liked to harass teh joos? :p

and here's the only hendrix song you even need to play :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36Zm_MoJx4&feature=related

[Iskandar]

I don't see how the broader canadian government should even let those laws stand. That's Quebec essentially separating itself, culturally, from the rest of Canada.It's called regionalism.

Quebec is already distinct from the rest of Canada. They have a different language, different political culture and a different history. You want to homogenize them with the rest of Canada.
Time to implement my three state solution.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2538/canadacw4.jpgNunavut would probably want to separate too, except that might not work because they lack the population and political influence that Quebec and Alberta have. But this isn't going to happen anyway. We're not Belgium.

Also, "Canada Proper" is a retarded name. Alberta became a province in 1905. Ontario is far more deserving of that title.

[YDtoad]

It's called regionalism.

Quebec is already distinct from the rest of Canada. They have a different language, different political culture and a different history. You want to homogenize them with the rest of Canada.

Either get out or be Canadian.

[Iskandar]

Either get out or be Canadian.Haha, you just don't get it. You're hopeless.

Why the hell can't they have some autonomy in recognition of the fact that their province is unique?

[YDtoad]

Haha, you just don't get it. You're hopeless.

Why the hell can't they have some autonomy in recognition of the fact that their province is unique?

Erm dude, look at the US. You'll find that in New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Florida, Louisiana, etc. without stupid laws regulating signs. Regulating signs and greetings is simply in a whole different league. If they want to be a French dominant society, apart from the rest of Canada, then they should secede.

[Iskandar]

Erm dude, look at the US. You'll find that in New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Florida, Louisiana, etc. without stupid laws regulating signs. Regulating signs and greetings is simply in a whole different league. If they want to be a French dominant society, apart from the rest of Canada, then they should secede.Those states aren't unique. It's not like they' have Spanish-speaking majorities.

We've already had two referendums on Quebec's status, the last one in 1995, and the no side won by a slim margin. Secession isn't viable right now, so we've settled for a compromise.

[YDtoad]

Those states aren't unique. It's not like they' have Spanish-speaking majorities.

Soon they will. And that won't lead to silly legislation about signs and greetings. Because people don't need the government to mandate sign and greetings to preserve their little ideas of culture.

[Iskandar]

Soon they will. And that won't lead to silly legislation about signs and greetings. Because people don't need the government to mandate sign and greetings to preserve their little ideas of culture.Why do you feel the need to denigrate cultures that aren't the majority, yet you turn right around and bemoan the loss of good ol' American values and traditional morals?

Own.

[Hababi]

Why do you feel the need to denigrate cultures that aren't the majority, yet you turn right around and bemoan the loss of good ol' American values and traditional morals?

Own.

I don't consider Pittsburghese to be one of them. A language is not a value.

[Iskandar]

I don't consider Pittsburghese to be one of them. A language is not a value.Language means a great deal to people, and they should be preserved. Screw the melting pot.

[Hababi]

Language means a great deal to people, and they should be preserved.

Great, it means a lot to some people. Let them preserve it themselves. The same way Creole speaking people in Louisiana do.

[Iskandar]

Great, it means a lot to some people. Let them preserve it themselves. The same way Creole speaking people in Louisiana do.What if it's beyond their ability to do so?

[Hababi]

What if it's beyond their ability to do so?

It's not.

[Iskandar]

It's not.Never?

[Hababi]

Never?

If it's meant to be, it's meant to be. That's the nature of freedom.

[Iskandar]

If it's meant to be, it's meant to be. That's the nature of freedom.Why should we just let a culture die?

Are you against movements to preserve dying languages, like Native American languages?

[Hababi]

Why should we just let a culture die?

The culture is hardly going to die if everyone isn't forced to greet in French and display signs in large French.


Are you against movements to preserve dying languages, like Native American languages?

That's a bit of a different situation, as they live on essentially self-governing enclaves that would be more comparable to if Quebec actually did secede. If Quebec would secede, I'd have no problem with them having French only. But they're not separating themselves like Indians have (to their own detriment).

Cultures evolve. Hybrids emerge. The Norman invasion brought the influence of French into English, hence veal, beef, etc.

[The Stig]

They only let the culture die if they fail to preserve it.

[Amit]

cultures die all the time tbh alex

the only time any governing body should step in is when cultures are threatened by things like genocide

[Hababi]

They only let the culture die if they fail to preserve it.

This too.

SOP?

[Iskandar]

Damn you right wing and thinking individuals are always in a perfect position to act according to their desires.
cultures die all the time tbh alex

the only time any governing body should step in is when cultures are threatened by things like genocideWhat's wrong with wanting to protect a culture? Every culture and every language has value.
Cultures evolve. Hybrids emerge. The Norman invasion brought the influence of French into English, hence veal, beef, etc.
That wasn't voluntary.

[guitrguy]

I don't evolution of culture is voluntary in general. I mean if a part of cultural has to defended chances are its pretty obsolete.

[Iskandar]

I think I'm feeling more sympathetic to the opposing side in this argument now, tbh. But I still support the promotion of the French language in Quebec.
I don't evolution of culture is voluntary in general. I mean if a part of cultural has to defended chances are its pretty obsolete.Or the majority is way too powerful to resist.

[guitrguy]

wouldn't that reflect it being obsolete?

[Iskandar]

wouldn't that reflect it being obsolete?Well, what do you mean? Is this some melting-pot ****? Because melting pot is a steaming pile of BS.

[Dr Hooch]

How does one differentiate between 2 cultures so closely connected geographically and socially

Is the hotel2tango music scene french or english

I mean

it's blatantly both

Culture can only be defined by now, it's hopelessly naive to long for the days of one culture being more dominant

[Smokey D]

What would that reason be?

I dunno. I'm not Quebecois. I can see, though, that there might be reasons, like if you believed in the preservation of identity or unique cultural insights. I don't think this discussion is only important for Quebec, though. There's hundreds, if not thousands, of societies all around the world who are threatened by linguicidal (it is too a word, Alex), homogenising languages and cultures.

I don't see how the broader canadian government should even let those laws stand. That's Quebec essentially separating itself, culturally, from the rest of Canada. It'd be like if Louisiana wanted to make Creole the dominant language. If Quebec wants to be a French dominant region, let them secede from Canada. Otherwise, let them be Canadian and not Quebecers.

If I recall, Quebec signed an agreement with the Crown at the conclusion of the Seven Years War that guaranteed its rights to protect its identity and language. Plus there's the whole democracy thing. You should check out my democratic sovereignty thread.

[griftadan]

can people stop bitching about the kansas schedule now?

[Smokey D]

Reading your deleted post Alex, I'm confused. I thought neo-liberals were closer to Third way centrism than libertarianism.

[Iskandar]

Reading your deleted post Alex, I'm confused. I thought neo-liberals were closer to Third way centrism than libertarianism.Nooo. Neoliberalism is, on an economic scale, far right. It's all about privatisation of pretty much all public goods, and promotion of free-market capitalism as the means to secure prosperity and freedom.

Neoliberals are basically libertarians without the liberal social attitudes.

[Smokey D]

According to Wikipedia, the essential qualities of neoliberalism are:

* Fiscal rectitude, meaning that governments would cut

expenditures and/or raise taxes to maintain a budget surplus

* Competitive exchange rates, whereby governments would accept market-determined exchange rates, as opposed to implemented government-fixed exchange rates, as had prevailed under the Bretton Woods System

* Free trade, which means the removal of trade barriers, like tariffs, subsidies, and regulatory trade barriers

* Privatisation, which means the transfer of previously-public-owned enterprises, goods, and services to the private sector.

* Undistorted market prices, meaning that governments would refrain from policies that would alter market prices.

* Limited intervention, with the exception of intervention designed to promote exports, some kinds of education or infrastructural development

From what I can tell, these are the policies of New Labour movement worldwide and the New Democrats in the US, which claim to be Third Way. Maybe there is a little more intervention in things like socialised medicine, but it's not as massive a jump as you're making out.

[Iskandar]

According to Wikipedia, the essential qualities of neoliberalism are:

* Fiscal rectitude, meaning that governments would cut

expenditures and/or raise taxes to maintain a budget surplus

* Competitive exchange rates, whereby governments would accept market-determined exchange rates, as opposed to implemented government-fixed exchange rates, as had prevailed under the Bretton Woods System

* Free trade, which means the removal of trade barriers, like tariffs, subsidies, and regulatory trade barriers

* Privatisation, which means the transfer of previously-public-owned enterprises, goods, and services to the private sector.

* Undistorted market prices, meaning that governments would refrain from policies that would alter market prices.

* Limited intervention, with the exception of intervention designed to promote exports, some kinds of education or infrastructural development

From what I can tell, these are the policies of New Labour movement worldwide and the New Democrats in the US, which claim to be Third Way. Maybe there is a little more intervention in things like socialised medicine, but it's not as massive a jump as you're making out.New Labour parties are right-wing, in my opinion. The entire political spectrum has shifted to the right in the last couple of decades, so they may appear more left than they really are.

Cutting expenditure, free trade and privatisation are all ideas strongly identified with the right, wouldn't you agree? Compare with a genuinely left-wing party like Canada's NDP, which supports fair trade and nationalization of key resources.

[Smokey D]

New Labour is more rightwing, but it's hardly libertarian.

[Iskandar]

New Labour is more rightwing, but it's hardly libertarian.Neoliberalism supports the right-wing economic policies of libertarianism without its liberal social policies. It is a primary economic ideology.

New Labour-type parties aren't fully neoliberal, but they have been influenced strongly by the ideology's ideas.

[Smokey D]

Neoliberalism supports the right-wing economic policies of libertarianism without its liberal social policies. It is a primary economic ideology.

New Labour-type parties aren't fully neoliberal, but they have been influenced strongly by the ideology's ideas.

I'm gonna refer to Wikipedia again, but bear with me.

"The term libertarian has also been used to define neoliberals, but there are key differences between the two groups. Libertarians believe in reducing government to its constitutionally-defined roles (defense, courts, protection of property, enforcement of contracts, and individual rights). Neoliberals believe in more government since government plays some role in areas such as healthcare and education. There is also a difference on social issues. Libertarians are generally very liberal on social issues since they all support individual liberties. Neoliberalism is more neutral on issues of social liberalism. In contrast to Libertarians some Neoliberals are socially conservative."

[Iskandar]

Yes, neoliberals may be more supportive of certain social programs, but in general they are very anti-public sector and favour privatization in almost all situations. Really, all that says to me is that they're less ideologically dogmatic than libertarians.

[Smokey D]

They're only anti public service when the private sector is demonstratively more effective or efficient. This isn't always the case, and neoliberalism clearly recognises this fact and provides remedies in its ideological framework. Anyway, this all points to the close relationship of the Third Way and neoliberalism, which was what I was originally getting at.

[Iskandar]

They're only anti public service when the private sector is demonstratively more effective or efficient. This isn't always the case, and neoliberalism clearly recognises this fact and provides remedies in its ideological framework. Anyway, this all points to the close relationship of the Third Way and neoliberalism, which was what I was originally getting at.I consider the Third Way more right wing than not, honestly. But anyway, what about the ideologues who want to "shrink government"? Isn't that being patently anti-public?

[Smokey D]

Yeah, but I'd say that's more libertarian than neoliberal. Neoliberalism aims to shrink public debt and expenditure, but does not give pride of place in its structure. It allows for greater taxation as well as trying to shrink the size of government. Despite privatisation that has occurred in most of the so-called Anglo-Saxon economies since the 1980s, only America has refused to institute a proper socialised medical system, and public education remains the norm in most places. In many areas, neoliberalism is more about offering market alternatives rather than completely abolishing the public sector. It's things like the coal mines that were completely shut down, but that's because they were completely inefficient.

Libertarians are about cutting down government to strictly defined constitutional limits. Neoliberals, at least in the first world, aim to cut it down to its most efficient model, and recognise that this might entail striking a balance between economic freedom and personal equity.

[Iskandar]

In many areas, neoliberalism is more about offering market alternatives rather than completely abolishing the public sector. It's things like the coal mines that were completely shut down, but that's because they were completely inefficient.It's about shrinking the public sector, I think, without completely abolishing it. Can we agree on that?

Governments have privatized more than just inefficient industries, they've privatized pretty much everything that was nationalized in during the left-leaning years of the Post-War Consensus. If that isn't a sharp shift to the right I don't know what is.

[Smokey D]

Yeah, but I'm not saying there hasn't been a rightward swing. I'm saying that the neoliberalism, new labour the third way and all that, while markedly more right wing than the Keynesian policies of the mid-20th century, aren't libertarian.

[Iskandar]

Yeah, but I'm not saying there hasn't been a rightward swing. I'm saying that the neoliberalism, new labour the third way and all that, while markedly more right wing than the Keynesian policies of the mid-20th century, aren't libertarian.Of course not. Libertarianism is much more radical. But neoliberalism is still an economic ideology that's well to the right. Basically, it seeks to reverse significant state intervention (based on Keynesianism and carried out by social-democrat, labour and other leftist parties) and return to the more laissez-faire policies of an earlier era.

[Smokey D]

Okay yeah, I can dig that. I just didn't like your assertion that neoliberals are 'just like libertarians but without that social freedoms'.

[Iskandar]

Okay yeah, I can dig that. I just didn't like your assertion that neoliberals are 'just like libertarians but without that social freedoms'.I wrote that in a fit of impassioned leftist outrage. Don't think too deeply into it.

[Dr Hooch]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=31QQ1gNpAaY&feature=related

You listen to boring music with horrible guitar sounds and minimal novelty

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uPoNoNvyu5k

[The Stig]

I wrote that in a fit of impassioned leftist outrage. Don't think too deeply into it.

Just don't let it happen again and don't compare us with them okay thanks.

[ringworm]

Hey Ron, now here is a story that I wont get mad at people hating on the 5-0 :)
this one is apauling


http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4022717&page=1
Robin Garrison, an off-duty 42-year-old firefighter, was walking in Berliner Park in Columbus, Ohio, in May when he saw a woman sunbathing topless under a tree.

He approached her and they started talking and getting comfortable, the woman smiling and resting her foot on his shoulder at one point. Eventually, she asked to see Garrison's penis; he unzipped his pants and complied.

Seconds later, undercover police officers pulled up in a van and arrested Garrison; he was later charged with public indecency, a misdemeanor, based on video footage taken by cops who were targeting men having sex or masturbating in the park. While topless sunbathing is legal in the city's parks, exposing more than that is against the law.

[Knifeboy]

poor guy :(

he probably thought it was his lucky day

[The Stig]

Reminds me of the wallet stings they have going on in New York.

[Reaganista]

that's entrapment 100%

[Knifeboy]

"The sunbathing woman is not affiliated with the police department and she was not asked to take part in the sting operation,"

[Reaganista]

bullshit

[Knifeboy]

If she wasn't involved with the police in that sting, I'd love to meet her

[DBoons Ghost]

If she wasn't involved with the police in that sting, I'd love to meet her

Lol.. I was gonna say.. Just don't show her your goods till you get her safely back to the van. The cops wouldn't mind ether on a hanky would they?

[Dr Hooch]

Reminds me of the wallet stings they have going on in New York.

still can't even understand why they even do this

[The Stig]

For the safety of AMERICA.

[Dave de Sylvia]

Everybody knows that sex is more dangerous than violence.

[Hababi]

ugh I hate animal cruelty


A telephone call at midnight normally would have awoken Bill Whiting, but he hadn't been sleeping much since his dog disappeared. He picked up the phone and couldn't believe what he heard.

Children were demanding $600 or else they would kill Edna, his beloved beagle mix. Whiting listened in horror to what sounded like the jingle of Edna's collar, and an animal yelping in pain. He agreed to pay the ransom.

"You don't understand, mister," a boy replied. "I want to kill your dog anyway."

What happened to Edna remains a mystery, but Philadelphia police have charged a 15-year-old with harassment, terroristic threats, theft by extortion and other counts for allegedly calling Whiting. Police have yet to find the dog.

Authorities gave no immediate explanation for how they traced the call.

"I've had tears today a couple of times. I don't see any happy news in this," a heartbroken Whiting said Friday. "I don't have a dog coming back, apparently." He also said he believes at least two children were involved.

Edna had been Whiting's constant companion for more than 10 years. The 57-year-old employee of the University of Pennsylvania's archaeology museum described Edna as a gentle dog that loved children and had been a therapy animal at nursing homes and hospitals.

Edna vanished on Halloween, after Whiting and the dog walked from his home in Philadelphia to a friend's house. Whiting thinks she slipped out into the unfamiliar neighborhood while the door was open for trick-or-treaters.

Frantic, he looked for hours, then printed up "Missing Dog" posters and plastered them around the neighborhood. The posters contained his cell phone number and offered a $500 reward.

Ten days after the dog disappeared, Whiting received the midnight call on his cell phone from a youth who demanded $600. Then a younger boy got on the phone and apparently began abusing an animal.

Whiting said he didn't recognize the yelps, since he had never heard Edna hurt before, but detected the sound of her collar, which had numerous tags and "jangled like a charm bracelet."

He begged them not to hurt the dog, and simultaneously dialed police from his land line.

Whiting went to a police station in the middle of the night to make a report. When he returned home a few hours later, his land line rang almost immediately. "We killed your dog," the voice said. "It's dead."

Whiting began to believe the children really did have Edna, since the land line phone number was only on the dog's tags, not the poster.

"I became hysterical," he said. "I started to tremble."

Police worked for weeks on tracing the calls, whose numbers came up as unavailable on Whiting's Caller ID. Publicity led to an outpouring of support for Whiting and rage against the perpetrators; rewards were offered by animal advocacy groups.

On Dec. 30, police arrested the 15-year-old, who was released to his family for a hearing Jan. 31.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080105/ap_on_re_us/missing_dog_extortion;_ylt=AqaDfxA14x38JNPNaq_pGaO s0NUE

Kids who abuse animals often grow up to be adults who abuse humans.

[Mr. Ron]

I used to kill frogs for fun when I was younger. Not too proud of that.

[Reaganista]

i try to avoid killing anything bugs included but the theft bothers me more than animal cruelty it should be legal to do whatever the **** you want to your own animal

[Amit]

omg those philly kids

such fags

[Reaganista]

i cant help it i dont even like killing plants

[Amit]

what about tofu

btw i wasn't talking about u i was talking about the kids who ****ed with that dog

[Reaganista]

o those philly kids idk them sry

[PerpetualBurn]

There's not a lot that sickens me more than animal cruelty.

I'd definitely be up for some hardcore vengeance if anyone touched my pets.

[Hababi]

Not a lot happens here.

In what way?



I like Auckland. Awesome place for growing up or growing old, but there's not that much to do in between.

That's an original slogan: "Auckland. Great place to grow up, or die."

[Smokey D]

In what way?

Not many bands pass through, though that has changed a bit since new stadiums opened up. We're outside the main exhibition circuits of most art and theatre etc. Nightlife (of all types) is dull and repetitive, since there isn't nearly enough variety interesting places. I dunno how to explain it really. There's just not much of a buzz. Auckland is too small to have the energy you get in more vibrant places.

[Hababi]

Ah. Is there at least a good selection of restaurants of different cuisines?

[Smokey D]

Definitely. I don't really do restaurants too much though, coz I'm a poor student. I make Auckland sound terrible, but it's not. It's remarkably comfortable and easy living, close to lots outdoor recreation and there is a bit of urban energy. But it's not somewhere you want to spend the rest of your days without seeing anything else. It's quite easy to be seduced into staying here, I bet, but it's something I want to avoid.

[Hababi]

Definitely. I don't really do restaurants too much though, coz I'm a poor student. I make Auckland sound terrible, but it's not. It's remarkably comfortable and easy living, close to lots outdoor recreation and there is a bit of urban energy. But it's not somewhere you want to spend the rest of your days without seeing anything else. It's quite easy to be seduced into staying here, I bet, but it's something I want to avoid.

How's the pollution? Wikipedia says it's bad (and as we know, wikipedia is always truth).

Safety, Economy, and Climate would be the top considerations for me, should I ever decide to move. (Because if you're not safe, nothing else matters, and if there's not a stable economy, then you won't be able to enjoy the climate. But if the climate is terrible, you'll be hampered in enjoying anything else).

[Smokey D]

How's the pollution? Wikipedia says it's bad (and as we know, wikipedia is always truth).


I've heard the air quality is bad, but it's not something I notice.


Safety, Economy, and Climate would be the top considerations for me, should I ever decide to move. (Because if you're not safe, nothing else matters, and if there's not a stable economy, then you won't be able to enjoy the climate. But if the climate is terrible, you'll be hampered in enjoying anything else).

It's about as safe as any reasonably big city, I guess. The economy is strong, but subject to flucuations in the international economy, and the climate is temperate, humid and changeable.

[RockAndRoll]

what about tofu

btw i wasn't talking about u i was talking about the kids who ****ed with that dog

tway did it! :eek:

[Iskandar]

One time I went to a library run by libertarian librarians. I asked them where a book was and they told me the market would find it for me.

[Amit]

:lol::lol:

:lol:

[Iskandar]

Thank you.

[Hababi]

I tried to come up with one about anarchists but it didn't quite work :\

[Iskandar]

I tried to come up with one about anarchists but it didn't quite work :\I found a thing comparing anarchists to libertarians. Let me see if I can find it.

http://laughnet.net/comparison-of-libertarians-and-anarchists-p-510.html

[Hababi]

I found a thing comparing anarchists to libertarians. Let me see if I can find it.

Libertarians are anarchists who want to make money.

[Iskandar]

Anarchists believe property is theft. Libertarians believe everything
is property.

I like that one.

[gregulus]

Anarchists believe property is theft. Libertarians believe everything
is property.

I like that one.

I like the last one.

[Tyr]

One time I went to a library run by libertarian librarians. I asked them where a book was and they told me the market would find it for me.

Great one.

[Iskandar]

Great one.I try.

[Tyr]

Which I am thankful for. How to otherwise have some fun this boring night?

[guitrguy]

drugs and rock 'n' roll?

[Iskandar]

But seriously, we have to cut back on useless bureaucracy and government waste. Like the old bat who sits behind the counter at the library and glares at me when I ask for Camus and put the stress on the wrong syllable of his name.

[gregulus]

One time I went to a library run by libertarian librarians. I asked them where a book was and they told me the market would find it for me.

wow.

[spitfirejunky]

Albart Cammyss

[Tyr]

drugs and rock 'n' roll?

I settled for some muesli and soy milk.

[Iskandar]

Albart CammyssI said Camus. I didn't want to adopt a fake, pretentious accent and say Camus.

[guitrguy]

What's muesli?

[Iskandar]

What's muesli?It's pretty good, whatever it is.

[Tyr]

What's muesli?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muesli

[guitrguy]

It looks like grape nuts.

[Iskandar]

I don't know what grape nuts are.

I know that müsli is delicious.:)

[Tyr]

Indeed it is.

[gregulus]

But seriously, we have to cut back on useless bureaucracy and government waste. Like the old bat who sits behind the counter at the library and glares at me when I ask for Camus and put the stress on the wrong syllable of his name.

So, you said is name correctly but just stressed "Ca" part and she got mad?

She sounds more pretentious than a folk-punk record. And that's saying a lot.

[spitfirejunky]

lol folk-punk

[guitrguy]

http://theimaginaryworld.com/tic384.jpg

[Iskandar]

So, you said is name correctly but just stressed "Ca" part and she got mad? Worse. She got haughty.

"Wellllllllllllllll, we don't have anything by a French author named Caaahhmu, but we dooooo have something by Camuuuuuuuuuuu."

Old bat.

[spitfirejunky]

Find her and destroy her.

[Tyr]

Librarians are a breed of their own.

[guitrguy]

They are the uber nerd

[Tyr]

Like me, that is. Only different.

[guitrguy]

Impossible, vikings can never be a nerd.

[Iskandar]

The library is underrated. Free books, magazines, CDs and computers. Even a reading room and a cafe. How's that for Big Gover'mint.

[Knifeboy]

I believe it is still legal for us danes to copy music cd's we borrow at the library. Or, at least it was a couple of years ago, the danish RIAA (called the Anti-pirate group.. YARR!) might have put a stop to that now

[Tyr]

Impossible, vikings can never be a nerd.

Well, I like Star Wars. That makes me nerdy in a lot of peoples' eyes.

[Iskandar]

I believe it is still legal for us danes to copy music cd's we borrow at the library. Or, at least it was a couple of years ago, the danish RIAA (called the Anti-pirate group.. YARR!) might have put a stop to that nowDon't you guys have a Pirate Party?

[guitrguy]

Well, I like Star Wars. That makes me nerdy in a lot of peoples' eyes.

liking it and going to conventions are two different things

[Tyr]

True, true, but 'regular' people doesn't even know about conventions.

[guitrguy]

They do in America, thats how they get made fun of.

[Tyr]

Point taken. Conventions hardly exist here, and the few that do are pretty small.

[Iskandar]

I'd go to a convention dressed as Chewbacca.

[spitfirejunky]

http://www.cswu.cz/characters/img/char/jango_fett_6.jpg

[guitrguy]

I'd go to a convention dressed as Chewbacca.
Good god alex! you're a nerd!!!!!1!!!1!!!1!!!

[Iskandar]

I was just kidding. I'd be a Jedi.

[Knifeboy]

Don't you guys have a Pirate Party?

No, the swedes are actually ahead of us on that one :/

[gregulus]

Worse. She got haughty.

"Wellllllllllllllll, we don't have anything by a French author named Caaahhmu, but we dooooo have something by Camuuuuuuuuuuu."

Old bat.
Hahahaha. I didn't know accents on certain syllables were so important when looking for a book.

[The Stig]

So I'm thinking of applying for an internship at the Cato Institute this summer. Just thought I'd say that.

[Smokey D]

Worse. She got haughty.

"Wellllllllllllllll, we don't have anything by a French author named Caaahhmu, but we dooooo have something by Camuuuuuuuuuuu."

Old bat.

It would be ka-mu anyway.

So I'm thinking of applying for an internship at the Cato Institute this summer. Just thought I'd say that.

That'd be a pretty awesome place to get an internship. Aside from the whole neoconservative bit, but I can ignore that.

[Iskandar]

It would be ka-mu anyway.Well, the stress is on the last syllable.

This is one of the most parodied features of French, is it not?So I'm thinking of applying for an internship at the Cato Institute this summer. Just thought I'd say that.
Ew. Why don't you do something for an organization that helps people?

[The Stig]

I think it's pretty competitive in the summer, though, but it's worth a shot at applying. Plus, they give you a stipend of $700 a month.

I see an organization as Cato as helping people.

[Iskandar]

I see an organization as Cato as helping people.What the hell can a right-wing think tank do for other people?

[Smokey D]

Well, the stress is on the last syllable.

This is one of the most parodied features of French, is it not?

You don't stress unaccented syllables in French. It's a-tonal.

[The Stig]

What the hell can a right-wing think tank do for other people?

Help fight for personal liberty and freedom.

[Iskandar]

You don't stress unaccented syllables in French. It's a-tonal.Wikipedia says:

Stress falls on the final syllable of a phrase unless that syllable has schwa as its vowel, in which case the penultimate vowel is stressed.

but I've also heard French has no stress at all. I dunno, I haven't bothered with the language in years.
Help fight for personal liberty and freedom.You really think that's what they do?

[Smokey D]

I've never been corrected when not putting stress on the syllables. From what I can tell, you don't change the syllable in a word, unless its a question, but you can change the stress on a word in a sentence.

[Iskandar]

If you say so.

[Smokey D]

I could be wrong, though. I haven't spoken French in a while.

[The Stig]

How to Label Cato
Today, those who subscribe to the principles of the American Revolution--individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law--call themselves by a variety of terms, including conservative, libertarian, classical liberal, and liberal. We see problems with all of those terms. "Conservative" smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo. Only in America do people seem to refer to free-market capitalism--the most progressive, dynamic, and ever-changing system the world has ever known--as conservative. Additionally, many contemporary American conservatives favor state intervention in some areas, most notably in trade and into our private lives.

"Classical liberal" is a bit closer to the mark, but the word "classical" connotes a backward-looking philosophy.

Finally, "liberal" may well be the perfect word in most of the world--the liberals in societies from China to Iran to South Africa to Argentina are supporters of human rights and free markets--but its meaning has clearly been corrupted by contemporary American liberals.

The Jeffersonian philosophy that animates Cato's work has increasingly come to be called "libertarianism" or "market liberalism." It combines an appreciation for entrepreneurship, the market process, and lower taxes with strict respect for civil liberties and skepticism about the benefits of both the welfare state and foreign military adventurism.

The market-liberal vision brings the wisdom of the American Founders to bear on the problems of today. As did the Founders, it looks to the future with optimism and excitement, eager to discover what great things women and men will do in the coming century. Market liberals appreciate the complexity of a great society, they recognize that socialism and government planning are just too clumsy for the modern world. It is--or used to be--the conventional wisdom that a more complex society needs more government, but the truth is just the opposite. The simpler the society, the less damage government planning does. Planning is cumbersome in an agricultural society, costly in an industrial economy, and impossible in the information age. Today collectivism and planning are outmoded and backward, a drag on social progress.

Market liberals have a cosmopolitan, inclusive vision for society. We reject the bashing of gays, China, rich people, and immigrants that contemporary liberals and conservatives seem to think addresses society's problems. We applaud the liberation of blacks and women from the statist restrictions that for so long kept them out of the economic mainstream. Our greatest challenge today is to extend the promise of political freedom and economic opportunity to those who are still denied it, in our own country and around the world.

I don't think neoconservative is the best way to describe them. They are against a lot of ways the federal government has been expanded through the Iraq war and counterterrorism measures.

[Iskandar]

If you really want to promote freedom and democracy and stuff, wouldn't a humanitarian NGO be better than a bunch of market ideologues?

[Smokey D]

Cato isn't completely bad, as long as its influence is moderated by other NGOs.

Apparently French does stress syllables, but it's based on their position in the sentence rather than each word having its own stressed syllable. Just so you know.

[Knifeboy]

eugh.. I despise ideologically based think tanks

[Smokey D]

Don't all think tanks have an ideological slant.

[YDtoad]

Don't all think tanks have an ideological slant.

some do a better job of hiding it than others.

[Knifeboy]

Don't all think tanks have an ideological slant.

I actually wouldn't mind working for a company think tank

[YDtoad]

It's better to work for a think tank than a drunk tank.

[The Stig]

I just saw the application and thought it would be worth a shot to apply. Besides, I found a spot where if my Russian improves, I can get a spot doing translations for them. I may apply for the hell of it for this summer, but I may do a more serious application for the Russian position for next summer after I graduate and know what my situation is with my law school applications.

[monkeysonmars.]

front page of BBC website, 'BRITONS NOW RICHER THAN AMERICANS'

:lol: classic, some shameless nationalism there.

[Iskandar]

Don't all think tanks have an ideological slant.Some NGOs work to promote democracy and human rights. Cato promotes ... capitalism.

I know which one I'd take.

[Mr. Ron]

http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/

[Reaganista]

not richer than me i got mad stacks

[Reaganista]

http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/

i predict 2 or 3

[guitrguy]

http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/

I have that app on my facebook. I got 5

[Reaganista]

i got 22 im sure my extensive starcraft experience will come in handy when this happens in reality

[guitrguy]

Dark Templars can destroy some 5 year olds, thats for sure.

[DBoons Ghost]

25! I'll beat them little punks like crazy.

[Tyr]

WTF, I got 30.

[Reaganista]

you guys are sickos

[DBoons Ghost]

WTF, I got 30.

Man if I was 5 I'd be avoiding you like crazy.

You're my hero.

[Reaganista]

how many five year old's asses have you kicked irl

[ringworm]

front page of BBC website, 'BRITONS NOW RICHER THAN AMERICANS'
yup, our dollar is ever declining :(

Ron Paul '08 :) lol

[PerpetualBurn]

I got 25.

[Reaganista]

how many five year old's asses have you kicked irl

i got 2

[ringworm]

You could take on 31 five year old kids in a fight.

lol

[Tyr]

Man if I was 5 I'd be avoiding you like crazy.

You're my hero.

how many five year old's asses have you kicked irl

I think my vast experience of being trampled by a pony once helped a bit. And the fact that I hate kids.

[Mr. Ron]

I only got 18. My guess is because I have never been in a "real" fight.

[guitrguy]

My first real fight was in the 4th grade.

[DBoons Ghost]

how many five year old's asses have you kicked irl

At least 3 at once. I suplexed my nephew while the other one was hanging on and the other one was wrapped around my leg.

I beat their butts. Sup. You want some too? I'll pile drive you and while laying on the concrete bleeding I'll jump from the roof of a car superfly Jimmy Snuka style boiiii..

[Mr. Ron]

Dboon needs to be stopped.

[DBoons Ghost]

My first real fight was in the 4th grade.

My first real fight came when I was 8. A boy around the block took a ball of mine and my older brother wouldn't help me get it back. I went home and told my father and he wouldn't let me back in the house until I beat the boy up and got my ball. I got the ball back but my brother went home before me and told my father I asked for the ball and my pops said it wasn't good enough, and I had to go back and fight the kid. I closed my eyes and punched him in the face and that was my first fight.

[spitfirejunky]

26 lol.

[guitrguy]

My first real fight came when I was 8. A boy around the block took a ball of mine and my older brother wouldn't help me get it back. I went home and told my father and he wouldn't let me back in the house until I beat the boy up and got my ball. I got the ball back but my brother went home before me and told my father I asked for the ball and my pops said it wasn't good enough, and I had to go back and fight the kid. I closed my eyes and punched him in the face and that was my first fight.

I forget what started it, but we trading insults back and forth. Eventually I slugged him in the face and the fight went from there. He had me in half guard at one point, and I got a good kick to the back of his head.

[ringworm]

man, fist fights were as common as lunch where I lived

but we didnt have to worry about getting stabbed or shot back in my day, just broken bones, blood and bruises, which aint nothing

[Dr Hooch]

I wasn't strong enough or stupid enough to fight guys at school

so i didn't

[DBoons Ghost]

I forget what started it, but we trading insults back and forth. Eventually I slugged him in the face and the fight went from there. He had me in half guard at one point, and I got a good kick to the back of his head.

Yeah I don't recall what transpired really. Just me closing my eyes and running in swinging and then opening them to him holding his nose. After that we got into fights all the time. Sometimes just for fun. I fought my brother for example almost every day. Crazy knock down brawls too with all kinds of weapons. I have scars all over from him.

[guitrguy]

My brothers and I used to fight all the time.

[dei]

I've never been in a fight.

[The Stig]

I got 21 5 year olds.

[DBoons Ghost]

man, fist fights were as common as lunch where I lived

but we didnt have to worry about getting stabbed or shot back in my day, just broken bones, blood and bruises, which aint nothing

I think it was around 1988 all that changed.

[DBoons Ghost]

My brothers and I used to fight all the time.

Are you guys all close now?

[guitrguy]

Oh yeah. We be all chill and shi'

[Dr Hooch]

I've never been in a fight.

in before 'How much can you know about yourself, you've never been in a fight?'

[Iskandar]

How much can you know about yourself, you've never been in a fight?

[Mr. Ron]

I know enough about myself to avoid fights.

[dei]

I know enough about Mr. Ron to put houses under his name.

[Hababi]

erm Ron Paul supporters

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1d4_1199722032&p=1