PNWI Community Thread version 3.0 (KEEP REFRIGERATED AT ALL TIMES)

[Hababi]

:lol:

I'm six foot three, and growing every day.


Darn you :angry:

I'm right around 6', so it's not too bad. But gah my shooting form is so inconsistent. Today I took well over 100 shots; I'd go from airballing three in a row to swishing four in a row.

[veggie 3.14]

:-)

I used to spend hours in the playground, just taking shots, but I didn't play for a while, so now my shooting is piss poor.

;(

[coheneran]

Playing basketball is like having unprotected sex; hit or miss, you're bound to have fun.

Similes make life bearable.

[Hababi]

Playing basketball is like having unprotected sex

You might get a canchor sore a few days later??? :eek:

*stops playing basketball*

[coheneran]

What's a canchor sore?

[AlienEater]

I don't know but it sounds bad.

[Hababi]

What's a canchor sore?

What you get in the primary stage of syphilis.

[lunchforthesky]

Outstanding.

[coheneran]

I don't think syphillis is inevitable during unprotected sex. Otherwise we'd all have it.

[Hababi]

I don't think syphillis is inevitable during unprotected sex. Otherwise we'd all have it.

No, it's not a certainty, but I still would play it safe :o

[Amit]

What you get in the primary stage of syphilis.

http://www.animated-teeth.com/canker_sores/t1_canker_sores.htm

yeah everyone remember to not only get medical knowledge from zero but also natural science "facts"

:mad:

[Hababi]

yeah so I misspelled it. Chancre sore.

[Amit]

did you click the link or what

[Hababi]

did you click the link or what

Yes, I clicked the link. What's your point?

[Amit]

there are a lot more causes of canker sores than just syphilis

[coheneran]

Lol, it says nothing about syphillis in there.

[Hababi]

there are a lot more causes of canker sores than just syphilis

What's your point?


Lol, it says nothing about syphillis in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphilis

[Amit]

you might mislead people into thinking a canker sore is exclusively caused by syphilis

and it's not that uncommon of a misconception either :-(

[Hababi]

you might mislead people into thinking a canker sore is exclusively caused by syphilis

and it's not that uncommon of a misconception either :-(

My, touchy about canchre sores, are we? ;)

I suppose since coheneran didn't know what it even was, we should clarify :p

[Amit]

just touchy over medical misinformation :-(

[Hababi]

just touchy over medical misinformation :-(

There was no misinformation in my post, just not clarified as much as possible (I'm not as medically ignorant as you like to allege).

[Amit]

oh stop crying over semantics :P

[Hababi]

oh stop crying over semantics :P

As soon as you wipe your tears :evil: :D

[Africa]

Woah woah woah look at this
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/5ae9b434-8f8e-11db-9ba3-0000779e2340.html

Thou shalt not kill... ROBOTS!? :lol:

[coheneran]

If you've read I, Robot, you'd probably agree with Henrik Christensensensen.

[Africa]

Nah I've read Do Android's Dream of Electric Sheep?.

[ringworm]

has anyone else seen this?

LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ity93J_eaEE

[lunchforthesky]

Lmao Romano Prodi ftw!


is that real?

[PerpetualBurn]

There was no misinformation in my post

You said that it was the early stages of syphillis...which is actually highly misleading.

(I'm not as medically ignorant as you like to allege).

Hey, remember that time you thought that people with HIV shouldn't work with food?

Haha.

Yeah, you were pretty stupid.

[Iskandar]

So I've developed a theory, which I believe to be self-evident, that Santa Claus and Karl Marx are actually the same entity.

[Africa]

You may be on to something sir I believe he was a communist, just the sort of person to distribute the wealth to needy little boys and girls aha ahee ohoo hoo hah.

[thedeadwalk!]

He's obviously capitalist. He only benefits children in first world countries. And on top of that, everyone has to meet his corporate demands of "being good" in addition to making his toys for him for which he only distributes now.

Then there's the working conditions of the elves. I can only liken this to the days of people living in company houses and be being paid in company dollars to buy stuff from the company store. Why is his workshop in the North Pole even? Isolation cannot be helpful to workers' rights.

We have the means of production and then we're supposed to kiss his foot as he gives us the gift back, flown around the world, and now taxed for shipping and handling.

Bah Humbug!

[lunchforthesky]

Elf rights ftw.

[coheneran]

Hey, remember that time you thought that people with HIV shouldn't work with food?

Lolpwnd.

[Africa]

Elf rights ftw.

Elf rights!? They're only half a human!

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Elf rights!? They're only half a human!

Hey coheneran thinks that animals should have the same rights as humans

never mind elves

[Mr. Ron]

Elf rights!? They're only half a human!

Um, clearly you're thinking of half-elves. :rolleyes:

[AlienEater]

aren't they dwarfelves?

[coheneran]

aren't they dwarfelves?

Only if the DM lets you.

Hey coheneran thinks that animals should have the same rights as humans

We shouldn't cause undue suffering to any living thing.

[PerpetualBurn]

What constitutes suffering and when is it due?

[Iskandar]

He's obviously capitalist. He only benefits children in first world countries. And on top of that, everyone has to meet his corporate demands of "being good" in addition to making his toys for him for which he only distributes now.

Then there's the working conditions of the elves. I can only liken this to the days of people living in company houses and be being paid in company dollars to buy stuff from the company store. Why is his workshop in the North Pole even? Isolation cannot be helpful to workers' rights.

We have the means of production and then we're supposed to kiss his foot as he gives us the gift back, flown around the world, and now taxed for shipping and handling.

Bah Humbug!
Those are all valid arguments. However, let's consider the arguments for:

Santa Claus resembles Marx in appearance. He is stocky and somewhat fat, and has long white hair and beard. He also wears a red suit.

As aforementioned, Santa Claus advocates the distribution and exchange of goods without currency. Christmas can be said to function as a gift economy.

Both, in their modern forms, originated in central Europe in the nineteenth century.

Santa Claus may not actually be exploiting his elves; he may merely be observing their plight as he develops his political philsophy.

Both are decidedly internationalist, wishing their social experiments to reach the entire world.

However, none of this explains why Karl Marx might find himself the spokesman for such an unabashedly capitalist holiday. Perhaps he is trying to revolutionize Christmas by negating its religious meaning.

[PerpetualBurn]

Then how come girls get Barbies and not those crappy Russian dolls?

[AlienEater]

Only if the DM lets you.

Oh he'll let me if you catch my drift

or I'll shoot him or something

[thedeadwalk!]

Santa Claus resembles Marx in appearance. He is stocky and somewhat fat, and has long white hair and beard. He also wears a red suit.
His suit is red to resemble his bishop's suit. Marx is athiest, no?

As aforementioned, Santa Claus advocates the distribution and exchange of goods without currency. Christmas can be said to function as a gift economy.
He advocates the distribution of goods after their purchase from big box stores.

Santa Claus may not actually be exploiting his elves; he may merely be observing their plight as he develops his political philsophy.
I don't think Marx ever created plight to try and solve it. Wouldn't any artificially created plight not be completely accurate to real plight anyway?

Both are decidedly internationalist, wishing their social experiments to reach the entire world.
Or he's looking for an international monopoly.

Don't trust his lies. He's the Bizarro Marx.

[pedro durruti]

Not to mention the unethical treatment of reinder (you know how many had to die before he could get them flying?) and the milk and cookies he demands in exchange for his "gifts"

[coheneran]

What constitutes suffering and when is it due?

Suffering: Experiencing physical or mental pain

When is it due? That's a hard one. I don't think suffering is ever due.

[Amit]

but without suffering our species would be a far weaker one physiologically

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Suffering: Experiencing physical or mental pain

When is it due? That's a hard one. I don't think suffering is ever due.

I always figured that the logical conclusion of what you want is for us all to go back to being wild animals, fighting for life every day, eating what we find, shedding society as a whole.



WHERE'S THE SCIENCE THERE, MAN

AND THE GUITARS

WHERE ARE THE GUITARS

[coheneran]

I always figured that the logical conclusion of what you want is for us all to go back to being wild animals, fighting for life every day, eating what we find, shedding society as a whole.



WHERE'S THE SCIENCE THERE, MAN

AND THE GUITARS

WHERE ARE THE GUITARS

I think you are over-dramatizing a *tiny* bit. We don't have to go that far as to "shed society" (and we wouldn't be doing that anyway, even if we were primitivists), just switching to a completely vegan lifestyle (individuals who would die otherwise excepted) and stopping all wars. Is that so much to ask?:rolleyes:

[Amit]

veganism sucks tbh

[AlienEater]

Meat is pretty great.

[lunchforthesky]

We all wont be going vegan anytime soon. Animals are soooo ingrained in our society.

[coheneran]

veganism sucks tbh

Why is that?

Meat is pretty great.

So are a lot of things that I believe are wrong.

[stevensonmat2]

Yeah there's no way I would ever be vegan. Im basically a carnivore.

[PerpetualBurn]

Coheneran, are you a theist?

[Amit]

Why is that?

i love my meats :-(

So are a lot of things that I believe are wrong.

then how are those things great?

[lunchforthesky]

Coheneran, are you a theist?

He's an atheist im pretty sure.

[PerpetualBurn]

That's what I thought.

But then he'd be forced to admit that his morals are f[size=2]ucking[/size=2] stupid.

And that would be an issue.

[coheneran]

then how are those things great?

Just because it's fun doesn't mean it's not good.

That's what I thought.

But then he'd be forced to admit that his morals are f[size=2]ucking[/size=2] stupid.

And that would be an issue.

Morality is usually bollocks, since it's completely subjective. In that case, I'd rather live my life as a hypocrite hurting as little life as possible, than a bastard with objective, logical principles.

[Apollyon]

Ugh, I love how many uneducated misconceptions about Jews there are floating around in here.

[coheneran]

Enlighten us?

[Amit]

jews are evil zionist scums etc

[coheneran]

What about the ones who aren't Zionist or evil or scum? Are they still evil Zionist scum?

[Apollyon]

Enlighten us?

I'm working on it in the "doctors gave people AIDS" thread.

*Note: Summarized for lack of remembering the actual title. :-D

[coheneran]

How did a 9/11 Truther with less than 450 posts who's only been here a month gotten so much rep, that's what I wanna know.

[Apollyon]

I've been here since 2003 and I'm apparently well liked, that's how.

EDIT: Wait, a 9/11 truther? When did I fall into that catagory?

[coheneran]

When I misinterpreted your user title.:upset:

[Apollyon]

:lol: Gold.

It's ok though, we all make mistakes. :-*

[PerpetualBurn]

Morality is usually bollocks, since it's completely subjective. In that case, I'd rather live my life as a hypocrite hurting as little life as possible, than a bastard with objective, logical principles.

Well you get to live your life however you prefer to.

But you don't get to say that eating meat is wrong. Ever.

[coheneran]

9/11 Truth stuff is such utter bollocks, and not because it's a conspiracy. I like how this explanation is worded:

"As an organisation we are opposed to 911 truth movements because, seen with an internationalist and communist perspective, they are irrelevant
to our overall struggle. A government is an armed faction used to
control a population, and every other armed faction is inherently the
same, regardless of whether it was 'voted' in or has 'Divine
guidance/authority'. We are the international working classes and we
fight the international ruling classes, EVERYWHERE. So, whether some
rich and powerful whites killed 3000 whites, or whether some rich and
powerful browns killed 3000 whites, is irrelevant, because the rich and
powerful are those that concern us, not the country they are from."

Well you get to live your life however you prefer to.

But you don't get to say that eating meat is wrong. Ever.

So how come everyone gets to say killing is wrong?

Seems like you have a sore spot about veganism.

[PerpetualBurn]

Haven't you noticed everyone failing hurrendously to justify themselves in the "is killing wrong?" thread?

It's not morally wrong. Nothing is morally wrong.

However, you can argue why killing should be banned in a very convincing way i.e. in order to stop society being rubbish

[Amit]

so what are your feelings about the millions of carnivorous species currently inhabiting this planet and the millions more which are extinct coheneran

why do they get to have all the fun >:[

[coheneran]

Haven't you noticed everyone failing hurrendously to justify themselves in the "is killing wrong?" thread?

Haven't gone in there yet.

It's not morally wrong. Nothing is morally wrong.

Actually, whatever I say is morally wrong is morally wrong, according to my morality. Right and wrong are just part of morality, which is completely subjective. In that case, nothing is objectively wrong, but morally wrong, well, whatever the individual deems to be wrong is morally wrong.

However, you can argue why killing should be banned in a very convincing way i.e. in order to stop society being rubbish

One person's rubbish is another person's next meal. If society is bad, it's because you view it as such, not because it is bad.

[PerpetualBurn]

Inane bollocks about empathy, Amit.

[coheneran]

so what are your feelings about the millions of carnivorous species currently inhabiting this planet and the millions more which are extinct coheneran

why do they get to have all the fun >:[

Apparantly they haven't developed a sense of morality yet.:p

Or they have, but are leading sinful lives.:p

We can generally survive without meat, so why cause suffering where it isn't needed?

[PerpetualBurn]

Actually, whatever I say is morally wrong is morally wrong, according to my morality. Right and wrong are just part of morality, which is completely subjective. In that case, nothing is objectively wrong, but morally wrong, well, whatever the individual deems to be wrong is morally wrong.

No whatever you say is right is not right. That's just not how things work.

If there's no objective morality, then there's only what you think is moral - and your thoughts are wrong.

One person's rubbish is another person's next meal. If society is bad, it's because you view it as such, not because it is bad.

Society has goals and interests, and so we have something by which to gauge what is good for society and what is bad for society. Now, universally speaking society is neither good nor bad, but you can say what is good for it in terms of it reaching its aims.

[Amit]

Apparantly they haven't developed a sense of morality yet.:p

Or they have, but are leading sinful lives.:p

We can generally survive without meat, so why cause suffering where it isn't needed?

i don't see being a meat eater as automatically causing suffering for what you eat

unless you're totally against what is happening in nature continuously

and how exactly do you know plants don't suffer as well :-\

[PerpetualBurn]

He defined suffering as physical pain.

[coheneran]

No whatever you say is right is not right. That's just not how things work.

If there's no objective morality, then there's only what you think is moral - and your thoughts are wrong.

Of course there's no objective morality. Unless you believe in God or something.

If good is what I think is good, but I am wrong, does that mean everything I think is good is actually bad? What makes my morality wrong in contrast with a "right" morality?

Society has goals and interests, and so we have something by which to gauge what is good for society and what is bad for society. Now, universally speaking society is neither good nor bad, but you can say what is good for it in terms of it reaching its aims.

Remember that means are an inherent part of the goal. If society's goal was for every man to have a wife, then forced marriage and rape would be good for society. If society's goal was for everyone to be equal and have the basis to pursue happiness, abolishing capitalism would be good for society. What if different parts of society had different goals (such as in our society)?

[Apollyon]

He defined suffering as physical pain.

Who's to say that plants don't feel physical pain? Believe it or not, we do not know everything about how everything works.

[coheneran]

i don't see being a meat eater as automatically causing suffering for what you eat

unless you're totally against what is happening in nature continuously

and how exactly do you know plants don't suffer as well :-\

I did say unneeded suffering. Hypocrisy is part of life, but how far we choose to extend that hypocrisy is up to us.

And plants don't feel pain because they don't have a nervous system. They don't have a nervous system because they can't run away, so they don't need to feel pain. And even if they did feel pain, I'd eat them until I found a way to survive without them. We can survive without animals.

[PerpetualBurn]

No it means that there is no morally good or bad.

And what you say about society's goals are true. But then you didn't name any goals that would actually be worth a society having.

For example's sake, I want rights. Other people want rights. The best way for me to maintain my rights is to work towards our common interest and protect all our rights. As such, it is good for this society to outlaw murder because if it didn't, then it would lose its goal of preservation of rights.

[Amit]

And plants don't feel pain because they don't have a nervous system. They don't have a nervous system because they can't run away, so they don't need to feel pain. And even if they did feel pain, I'd eat them until I found a way to survive without them. We can survive without animals.

so we can do things to organisms without nervous systems that we can't do to organisms with nervous systems

what about people and animals who can't feel pain

they really do exist :-o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pain_with_anhidrosis

[PerpetualBurn]

Who's to say that plants don't feel physical pain?

Plants don't have the capacity to feel pain. They don't have a nervous system. Any possible sensation they could hypothetically have wouldn't be "pain" because "pain" is a sensation based in the nervous system.

Don't try and pose clever hypotheticals when it involves being obstinate in the face of science.

[Apollyon]

I did say unneeded suffering. Hypocrisy is part of life, but how far we choose to extend that hypocrisy is up to us.

And plants don't feel pain because they don't have a nervous system. They don't have a nervous system because they can't run away, so they don't need to feel pain. And even if they did feel pain, I'd eat them until I found a way to survive without them. We can survive without animals.

I knew a guy in high school who didn't feel pain. He made a great wrestler, but since he can't feel pain, let's just eat him.

blah blah blah i love the ****

I wasn't talking to you, and you're the one ignoring scientific fact by supporting his "no pain, eat it" theory.

[PerpetualBurn]

He also mentioned mental suffering/pain.

I think it would be trite to imagine a person without mentality or physical sensation as suffering.

[Apollyon]

He also mentioned mental suffering/pain.

I think it would be trite to imagine a person without mentality or physical sensation as suffering.

Wait since when does a person without developed nerve endings lack mentality?

[PerpetualBurn]

Because he mentioned either mental or physical anguish was required to have suffering.

So the only type of human that couldn't suffer would be one with absolutely no mentality and no physical sensation. Which I think I would have to agree with.

[Apollyon]

Because he mentioned either mental or physical anguish was required to have suffering.

So the only type of human that couldn't suffer would be one with absolutely no mentality and no physical sensation. Which I think I would have to agree with.

Mentality =/= physical sensation.

You're drawing baseless correlations here and I'm trying to understand where you're basing your justification for these silly ideas.

[Iskandar]

"As an organisation we are opposed to 911 truth movements because, seen with an internationalist and communist perspective, they are irrelevant
to our overall struggle. A government is an armed faction used to
control a population, and every other armed faction is inherently the
same, regardless of whether it was 'voted' in or has 'Divine
guidance/authority'. We are the international working classes and we
fight the international ruling classes, EVERYWHERE. So, whether some
rich and powerful whites killed 3000 whites, or whether some rich and
powerful browns killed 3000 whites, is irrelevant, because the rich and
powerful are those that concern us, not the country they are from."
More people would be communists if less communists talked like that.

[coheneran]

You guys are all missing the vitally important first part of the two words.

[coheneran]

More people would be communists if less communists talked like that.

Romantic revolution is where it's at baby!

[Iskandar]

You guys are all missing the vitally important first part of the two words.
Which is what?
Romantic revolution is where it's at baby!
I mean, when people talk like "a government is an armed faction used to
control a population," most people automatically dismiss them as crazy.

[coheneran]

Which is what?

Unneeded.

[PerpetualBurn]

Mentality =/= physical sensation.

I never said it did. Read the post.

You're drawing baseless correlations here and I'm trying to understand where you're basing your justification for these silly ideas.

I haven't drawn any correlations.

Can't you read?

Coheneran stated two kinds of suffering:

Physical suffering
Mental suffering

So, a human without mentality can still suffer physically.
A human without physical sensation can still suffer mentally.

The only type of human that would preclude suffering, by Coheneran's definition, would be one that had NEITHER feeling NOR mentality. And I would agree that such a person cannot suffer.

Jesus Christ...I didn't think I would have to make it so patently obvious. I've been very clear.

[coheneran]

I mean, when people talk like "a government is an armed faction used to control a population," most people automatically dismiss them as crazy.

Most people are stupid and brainwashed.:angry:

The only type of human that would preclude suffering, by Coheneran's definition, would be one that had NEITHER feeling NOR mentality. And I would agree that such a person cannot suffer.

I think that type of human being is also probably dead.

Ninja EDIT: Or at least clinically dead or summit.

20

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm speaking hypothetically.

And slowly.

Because Apollyon appears to be an idiot.

[Iskandar]

Most people are stupid and brainwashed.:angry:
They're wary of new and challenging ideas. So it's best to present ideas to people in a manner that doesn't make them automatically dismiss these ideas as the product of a loner 17-year old building bombs in his garage.

[sweboy]

Believing in human superiority (the idea that people use to justify eating meat) while believing in human rights is somewhat hypocritical: People value humans higher than other animals because of our biological attributes (mainly our intelligence), but value all humans equally regardless of biological attributes.

So, eating meat is wrong if you believe in human rights (unless you also follow an Abrahamic religion).

[coheneran]

Appearances can be deceiving.

And you're not speaking at all, you're writing, in which case it doesn't matter how fast you write because everyone reads your posts at a different speed.

Irrelevance ftw.

19

[coheneran]

Believing in human superiority (the idea that people use to justify eating meat) while believing in human rights is somewhat hypocritical: People value humans higher than other animals because of our biological attributes (mainly our intelligence), but value all humans equally regardless of biological attributes.

So, eating meat is wrong if you believe in human rights (unless you also follow an Abrahamic religion).

Very good point.

18

[PerpetualBurn]

Eating meat isn't wrong if you believe in human rights.

I believe that society grants rights to each other as a means of preserving the rights of each individual (i.e. our own). A social contract line of thought.

Human superiority has nothing to do with it and you're being stultifyingly irrelevant.

[coheneran]

I believe that society grants rights to each other as a means of preserving the rights of each individual (i.e. our own). A social contract line of thought.

But if that's true, as soon as someone breaks the social contract they lose the rights it bestows upon them and so society is justified in doing whatever it wants with them, which opens the door for all sorts of depraved vengeance practices.

Maybe that's the mentality behind Sharia law and stuff. Stonings.

17

[sweboy]

Eating meat isn't wrong if you believe in human rights.

I believe that society grants rights to each other as a means of preserving the rights of each individual (i.e. our own). A social contract line of thought.

Human superiority has nothing to do with it and you're being stultifyingly irrelevant.

It all comes down to if you're ok with eating (killing) humans or not. If you believe in human rights, you believe that eating/killing an innocent human is always wrong, even when it comes to brain damaged humans who are mentally identical to cows or pigs.

But tell me, what is the difference between a brain damaged human and a cow who have the same intelligence and the same ability to feel pain and fear? There is no difference except physical appearence and DNA coding, but you still value the human higher because you believe in human superiority that you, now that the biological attributes no longer apply, can't justify. So you eat the cow but not the human, but you can't justify why.

[veggie 3.14]

Hello MX.

Just had a very long, very nice sesh, and am now coming down. Very, very gently.

:)

[Apollyon]

I'm speaking hypothetically.

And slowly.

Because Apollyon appears to be an idiot.

I'm definitely not an idiot, I just really honestly do not understand the reasoning behind a vegan train of thought. It's just not logical. That's all.

[coheneran]

Nobody wants to marry spoiled goods.

15

[PerpetualBurn]

It all comes down to if you're ok with eating (killing) humans or not. If you believe in human rights, you believe that eating/killing an innocent human is always wrong, even when it comes to brain damaged humans who are mentally identical to cows or pigs.

But tell me, what is the difference between a brain damaged human and a cow who have the same intelligence and the same ability to feel pain and fear? There is no difference except physical appearence and DNA coding, but you still value the human higher because you believe in human superiority that you, now that the biological attributes no longer apply, can't justify. So you eat the cow but not the human, but you can't justify why.

I don't think it's morally wrong to kill people. Read what I've written. I'm not arguing rights based on morality but on selfishness. The best way to preserve my own rights are by defending them universally. And I'm not necessarily against killing a person that will forever be comatose.

I'm definitely not an idiot, I just really honestly do not understand the reasoning behind a vegan train of thought. It's just not logical. That's all.

Except I'm not arguing from a vegan stand point. And if you actually read the thread properly and see what I have asked and what has been said, you may start to comprehend my argument.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

But tell me, what is the difference between a brain damaged human and a cow who have the same intelligence and the same ability to feel pain and fear? There is no difference except physical appearence and DNA coding, but you still value the human higher because you believe in human superiority that you, now that the biological attributes no longer apply, can't justify. So you eat the cow but not the human, but you can't justify why.

Yes, but only if you assume that the decision of whether or not to eat a particular animal is solely determined by the animal's relative biological 'superiority'. The logic of your argument is quite strong, I'll grant you, but you're assuming that the fact of belonging to the same species is entirely irrelevant.

[coheneran]

Yes, but only if you assume that the decision of whether or not to eat a particular animal is solely determined by the animal's relative biological 'superiority'. The logic of your argument is quite strong, I'll grant you, but you're assuming that the fact of belonging to the same species is entirely irrelevant.

Why is it relevant?

[spitfirejunky]

How does giving rights to a specific species imply that that species is superior to others?

[coheneran]

In the same way that giving rights to a particular gender implies that gender's superior.

[Smokey D]

Certain rights are inseperable with certain functions and abilities.

There's no point telling a man he has the right to have an abortion.

[sweboy]

I don't think it's morally wrong to kill people. Read what I've written. I'm not arguing rights based on morality but on selfishness. The best way to preserve my own rights are by defending them universally. And I'm not necessarily against killing a person that will forever be comatose.

Ok, that's cool, but then you don't fully agree with human rights, so it's not really your values I'm arguing against. Yes, but only if you assume that the decision of whether or not to eat a particular animal is solely determined by the animal's relative biological 'superiority'. The logic of your argument is quite strong, I'll grant you, but you're assuming that the fact of belonging to the same species is entirely irrelevant.

Species schmecies, all organisms are products of aimless evolution. I don't see how it is relevant.
Certain rights are inseperable with certain functions and abilities.

Definitely, but the thing is that humans are given the same rights regardless of functions and abilities (except, for some reason, fetuses).

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

Species schmecies, all organisms are products of aimless evolution. I don't see how it is relevant. yeah but not everyone feels that there is no meaningful distinction

[Smokey D]

Definitely, but the thing is that humans are given the same rights regardless of functions and abilities (except, for some reason, fetuses).

A man doesn't have a right to an abortion because he can't. I don't see why an animal should have a right to something it can't do.

[sweboy]

A man doesn't have a right to an abortion because he can't. I don't see why an animal should have a right to something it can't do.

But the thing is that humans are given the same rights regardless of functions and abilities. Why should a brain damaged human with the mental abilities of a cow have different rights than a cow?

[Smokey D]

But the thing is that humans are given the same rights regardless of functions and abilities. Why should a brain damaged human with the mental abilities of a cow have different rights than a cow?

Because it's a slippery slope, I guess.

[italic zero]

Ok, that's cool, but then you don't fully agree with human rights, so it's not really your values I'm arguing against.
what he said is pretty much the exact argument Kant makes. And it's perfectly reasonable to call the result of that reasoning 'morality' or 'human rights'.

[PerpetualBurn]

But the thing is that humans are given the same rights regardless of functions and abilities. Why should a brain damaged human with the mental abilities of a cow have different rights than a cow?

Not all humans are given equal rights.

A severely mentally retarded person can't consent to entering a legal contract.

[spitfirejunky]

In the same way that giving rights to a particular gender implies that gender's superior.

Smokey D pretty much beat me to that point.

Certain rights are inseperable with certain functions and abilities.

There's no point telling a man he has the right to have an abortion.

[lunchforthesky]

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=506524

Get your hatred in while you can :p

[thedeadwalk!]

I find it odd that Billy Joel is an option. Makes me think he not only likes Billy Joel but wants to be him.

[lunchforthesky]

Ted Nugent should of been an option

[AlienEater]

Haha

I voted guiding force of mx because we all know it's the truth

[veggie 3.14]

Hey MX, how y'all doing?

I've broken up for Christmas (finally), but I'm bored out of my skull, and my usual dealer has dissapeared, probably on a ketamine bender. w00t.

However... Christmas is close, and I'm gonna be getting some new pedals.

:)

[Hababi]

I find it odd that Billy Joel is an option. Makes me think he not only likes Billy Joel but wants to be him.

I'm the Piano Man:smoke:

Hey whatever happened to Piano Dan?

[sweboy]

what he said is pretty much the exact argument Kant makes. And it's perfectly reasonable to call the result of that reasoning 'morality' or 'human rights'.

Didn't Kant also say (not that I've read his work or anything; I found it on wikipedia) that rational beings have an intrinsic and absolute value? That's basically what the human rights defined by the UN are based on, except the ability to think rationally is actually not a factor when determing this value. So essentially, humans are worth more than other animals just because they are humans. Illogical, and speciesism at it's finest.

Not all humans are given equal rights.

A severely mentally retarded person can't consent to entering a legal contract.

Come on, we're talking major stuff here, mainly the right to life.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

godamnit serenity you're a knobend

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

godamnit serenity you're a knobend

:lol:

I like this man

[AlienEater]

I played 8 player Halo 2 on XBOX 360 today. It was fun, although I don't think it's that great a game.

[Hababi]

godamnit serenity you're a knobend

You're just mad I neg rep'd you again, knocking a bar off your rank :D

Just wait, more is coming :evil:

[sweboy]

Got neg rep'd by Serenity? Don't worry, just contact The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation, the newly founded organisation to help you out after getting neg rep'd by Serenity. We offer a full scale compensation program that not only covers the damage, but gives you back more than you lost. That's right, with the Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation, you actually gain by getting neg rep'd by Serenity. And that's not all, you get a funny rep comment too! And all this is completely free of charge. Can you believe it? The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation can be found in the PNWI Community Thread. Order any time of the day!

(In other words, I rep++'d you nowhesingsnowhesobs)

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Got neg rep'd by Serenity? Don't worry, just contact The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation, the newly founded organisation to help you out after getting neg rep'd by Serenity. We offer a full scale compensation program that not only covers the damage, but gives you back more than you lost. That's right, with the Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation, you actually gain by getting neg rep'd by Serenity. And that's not all, you get a funny rep comment too! And all this is completely free of charge. Can you believe it? The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation can be found in the PNWI Community Thread. Order any time of the day!

(In other words, I rep++'d you nowhesingsnowhesobs)

Dude this one time zerocool neg rpepped me over an issue of quotations

he only did it because i'm an athiest

recompense pls

[Hababi]

Got neg rep'd by Serenity? Don't worry, just contact The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation, the newly founded organisation to help you out after getting neg rep'd by Serenity. We offer a full scale compensation program that not only covers the damage, but gives you back more than you lost. That's right, with the Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation, you actually gain by getting neg rep'd by Serenity. And that's not all, you get a funny rep comment too! And all this is completely free of charge. Can you believe it? The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation can be found in the PNWI Community Thread. Order any time of the day!

(In other words, I rep++'d you nowhesingsnowhesobs)

How much do I have to donate to become majority owner and director of this foundation?

[sweboy]

How much do I have to donate to become majority owner and director of this foundation?

The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation is a non-profit voluntary foundation, powered only by the good will of it's members. However, donations are gladly accepted as they are very beneficial to our work and a great way for people to help our cause. While we of course maintain our objectivity at all times, it is only fair that certain appreciation is shown to major contributors, and since such people obviously share our goal they would most likely be able to help the foundation greatly if they were part of it. Thus, a price list for different positions in our management can be found on our website.

[lunchforthesky]

I have been neg repped by him on numerous occasions, obviously none of which i deserved and all of which i returned the favour :p

[The_Passenger]

I got negged by Zero once because I pointed out a thread he made had already been done. It was when he was on his other account so it only went down one point though.

[lunchforthesky]

How much do you lose when you get neg repped. How much of a percentage of theirs is it.

[sweboy]

It is a business making pleasure with you all - The Sweboy Serenity Neg Rep Compensation Foundation.

[PerpetualBurn]

People actually check their rep on posts?

I don't think I'd ever know unless they told me.

I tend to assume that if I haven't offended anyone then I haven't posted properly.

[lunchforthesky]

I check it when i log in. Mine's 600+ i dunno how high or low that is.

EDIT: Zero your such a douche. When i can neg rep you again i will.

[PerpetualBurn]

What do I gain/lose from rep?

It seems fairly pointless, even by internet forums standards.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I am on 555 and i swear it was more before? However it must've been elss because incorporating sereneties neg, and sweboys and lunch's plus, my rep on that post is extremely positive?

OH MAN

I CAN'T HANDLE THIS

I ONLY WANT TO BE POPULAR

[veggie 3.14]

I have -30 rep.

:lol:

/Wouldn't've noticed if I hadn't checked.

[PerpetualBurn]

And yet I have 399 rep.

I really am amazing.

[AlienEater]

I have a pathetic 240

:(

[lunchforthesky]

i have 628 now after another neg repping by Zero.

[Hababi]

i have 628 now after another neg repping by Zero.

:)
.

[PerpetualBurn]

Patronising and inflammatory pictures irritate me.

Rep -

[AlienEater]

I have -30 rep.

:lol:

/Wouldn't've noticed if I hadn't checked.

I rep++'d you, but I only give around 3 or something.

[veggie 3.14]

I have -5 now. :cool:

PS: Zero still sucks.

Bite me, bish.

Also, I have to go along with my parents to a family friends' house tonight. Oh, this is going to blow.

[PerpetualBurn]

Patronising and inflammatory pictures irritate me.

Rep -

Your reputation on this post is Extremely Negative.

I love that my overall rep has still actually increased from this post despite of someone's negative rep (zero).

I'm just too powerful for negative rep to touch.

[thedeadwalk!]

Am I the only one with positive feedback from Zero? And on my exposé of Santa Clause of all things.

I actually got a few reps on that.

[PerpetualBurn]

And yet I post gold and people give me nothing.

Bizarre.

[veggie 3.14]

Merry Christmas, y'all.

[griftadan]

anyone get anything good?

i got a new graphics card and memory, my computer actually functions now.

[thedeadwalk!]

I got just about the entire series of The Walking Dead comics. God, I love them.

Received a number of movies chiefly among them: Battle Royale, Battlefield Baseball and Cool Hand Luke.

Loved everything else I got, except the socks. Every year with the socks.

[PerpetualBurn]

Battle Royale is an intense movie. I spotted a major gaffe in it, but someone on IMDB beat me to it when I went to submit it.

Also, avoid the sequel. It's rubbish.

[veggie 3.14]

I got... an Electro Harmonix Memory Man pedal, a Mars Volta CD, and a shitload of books.

=D

[AlienEater]

I got a few CDs:
Glenn Branca - Symphony no 2 (Peak of the Sacred)
Dinosaur Jr - J Mascis Live at CBGBs: The First Acoustic Show
This Heat - S/T
V/A - ATP 3.1 curated by Matt Groening

a few books and a computer game. Also, an Unsane T-Shirt.

Everything else sucked

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Battle Royale is an intense movie. I spotted a major gaffe in it, but someone on IMDB beat me to it when I went to submit it.

Also, avoid the sequel. It's rubbish.

Yeah, the sequel doesn't add anything and is also really lame (we want you to invade their base, but we're still going to give you huge disadvantages and include danger zones. Also, when you all mutiny, rather than just bombing the one small warehouse to oblivion, we're going to send in the real army, on foot, armed only with assault rifles equal to your own.)

what was the gaffe?

But the original is really good.

[thedeadwalk!]

I didn't care for the sequel either, but I also saw it with no subtitles or dubbing so that didn't help.

[veggie 3.14]

Is your avatar Rorschach, from Watchmen, or am I very much mistaken?

[thedeadwalk!]

You're very much correct.

[veggie 3.14]

Huzzah!

Watchmen kicks ***.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I didn't care for the sequel either, but I also saw it with no subtitles or dubbing so that didn't help.

you didn't miss much

[Iskandar]

I got a copy of the Qur'an, a dictionary so I can attempt to understand it, the box set of War and Peace, some chocolate....

[PerpetualBurn]

Yeah, the sequel doesn't add anything and is also really lame (we want you to invade their base, but we're still going to give you huge disadvantages and include danger zones. Also, when you all mutiny, rather than just bombing the one small warehouse to oblivion, we're going to send in the real army, on foot, armed only with assault rifles equal to your own.)

Having loved the original so much, I just didn't expect the garbage you describe.

what was the gaffe?

I'm glad you asked!

In the scene where the girl is poisoned, the bottle is labelled KCN (potassium cyanide). KCN kills by acting as an inhibitor in the mitochondria of the cells in the body. Aerobic respiration stops. However, the poisoned girl coughs up blood, indicating internal bleeding - NOT an effect of cyanide poisoning.

So, in conclusion, the only reason you should ever consider A-level Chemistry and Biology is to spot minor holes in otherwise great films only to find that someone else has beaten you to it on IMDB.

[coheneran]

I got nothing.

Apart from two days of getting stuffed full of food nobody paid for (apart from the supermarkets). What idiot supermarket throws away a TURKEY on Christmas?

That's my lot, I'm gonna disappear for a couple weeks again. See ya'll on the flipside.

[AlienEater]

laterz

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Having loved the original so much, I just didn't expect the garbage you describe.



I'm glad you asked!

In the scene where the girl is poisoned, the bottle is labelled KCN (potassium cyanide). KCN kills by acting as an inhibitor in the mitochondria of the cells in the body. Aerobic respiration stops. However, the poisoned girl coughs up blood, indicating internal bleeding - NOT an effect of cyanide poisoning.

So, in conclusion, the only reason you should ever consider A-level Chemistry and Biology is to spot minor holes in otherwise great films only to find that someone else has beaten you to it on IMDB.

All A level physics taught me is that you cannot drill into a rock, place a warhead so small you can fit 4 onto a space shuttle and then detonate them and expect to deflect it enough to avoid the earth

although back to the future is all sound, baby

[PerpetualBurn]

Hey, anyone reading the Is Killing Wrong? thread?

Turns out I'm not an atheist. Some tosspot refuses to accept it.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I got nothing.

Apart from two days of getting stuffed full of food nobody paid for (apart from the supermarkets). What idiot supermarket throws away a TURKEY on Christmas?

That's my lot, I'm gonna disappear for a couple weeks again. See ya'll on the flipside.

orite are you a freegan?

[veggie 3.14]

:lol:

'You aren't an atheist!'

'What? Why Not?'

'Because I say so, and it's the internet.'

Got another pedal today.

Phasing++!

[PerpetualBurn]

I think I might find religion just because some bell-end won't accept my status as an atheist.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

I think I might find religion just because some bell-end won't accept my status as an atheist.

Do it, i could do with an intellectual equal to argue religion with ;)

[lunchforthesky]

What, Little Pound doesnt cut it?

[PerpetualBurn]

I think it would be interesting for me to try and argue in favour of Christianity, but I'm also fairly sure that me defending LittlePound triggers the end of the Earth.

[lunchforthesky]

I'd feel like such an idiot the whole time, knowing my arguments had such glaring flaws.

[AlienEater]

dude you got to have faith

[PerpetualBurn]

Faith usually makes me vomit.

[spitfirejunky]

Militant atheist?

[PerpetualBurn]

See!

Spitfire gets it.

What the hell am I doing wrong in the killing thread?

[AlienEater]

just start blaspeming in an offensive manner or something

or you could pretend you are jewish

[spitfirejunky]

See!

Spitfire gets it.

What the hell am I doing wrong in the killing thread?

I just checked that thread out. I think he lacks an understanding of theism in general.

[PerpetualBurn]

He's an atheist LittlePound.

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

What, Little Pound doesnt cut it?

he's the training dummy to Andy's William Wallace, claymore and all.

[Iskandar]

or you could pretend you are jewish
Barukh atak Adonai.

[Smokey D]

I got nothing.

Apart from two days of getting stuffed full of food nobody paid for (apart from the supermarkets). What idiot supermarket throws away a TURKEY on Christmas?

That's my lot, I'm gonna disappear for a couple weeks again. See ya'll on the flipside.

You eat from the trash?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

You eat from the trash?

There's this 'movement' of these guys called freegans who go around london bins looking for unopened packkets that businesses just throw away and then take them and eat them

[Smokey D]

I know, I just hoped Coheneran was a little more intelligent than that.

[Apollyon]

Smokey D why must we always argue over semantics? :'(

[Smokey D]

Because precision in language is a necessity.

[Apollyon]

Yes but telling me that my definition of 'legitimate' is wrong is not going to change my opinion because I hold almost all definitions in a position of subjectivity, due to their constantly changing applications to constantly changing circumstances.

The dictionary is not the end all be all of written/spoken word interpretation. It's simply a reference for the generalized understanding of a word in it's given context. It's always up for additional interpretation.

[Smokey D]

Definitions can't be, by definition, subjective. That just defeats the whole purpose.

[Apollyon]

Definitions have to be subjective, because the context of a word constantly changes and evolves with time. If the written definition of a word were to be held constant and unchanging, the human language would never have evolved past old English.

EDIT: But hey it's 3:30am and I am dead tired. I'll get back to this later.

Adios.

[Smokey D]

Definitions have to be subjective, because the context of a word constantly changes and evolves with time. If the written definition of a word were to be held constant and unchanging, the human language would never have evolved past old English.

Language evolves with the addition of new words or the application of old words to new contexts.

The purpose of language is to communicate information effectively. When a word acquires a meaning contrary or unrelated to its primary definition and thereby create confusion, language has failed.

[PerpetualBurn]

Not really.

Otherwise we'd have to take every statement as completely literal. The reality is we don't. We can use a word that a dictionary may treat as objective when we can infer from context that it wasn't intended that way.

[Smokey D]

Yes, but if it means something completely different, something's gone wrong. Obviously words can be transferred to different situations but only where the new context has enough similarities with the original meaning.

[nowhesingsnowhesobs]

happy 2007 pnwi

im only 2 hours 18 minutes late

[lfantwister]

5 hours and 5 minutes early, here. So you're still ok

[veggie 3.14]

Happy 2007 y'all, have a good one.

[coheneran]

orite are you a freegan?

Freegetarian. I will become a freegan one day, just not yet. Maybe one day when I have a stronger willpower.

I think I might find religion just because some bell-end won't accept my status as an atheist.

No, but do not be afraid to learn from religion. Be dogmatic in your atheism.:p

You eat from the trash?

Yes. It is anti-consumerism direct action, it's infinitely cheaper than buying food, it decreases waste, and I don't get wracked by guilt for buying Israeli produce. Or any produce, to be fair.

On that last note, my mum told a local grocery store not to stock a certain brand of pickles because they're Israeli and we shouldn't support the Israeli economy, and the dude (very wisely) pointed out that they stock Coca-Cola and a hundred other American products, and America is far worse than Israel.

5 hours and 5 minutes early, here. So you're still ok

Oi, Ali, come on MSN from time to time. It's quiet and boring without you online.

How was everyone's NYE/NYD partying?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

Freegetarian. I will become a freegan one day, just not yet. Maybe one day when I have a stronger willpower.

I wouldn't bother. I see the only way one can like a truly vegan lifestyle is to only eat food gathered from natural plants, and only drink from mountain streams since humans are an animal to and stuff like pesto or wine is blatantly a product of humans. Who says that you have to physically generate physical matter to be <that word you guys always use>


No, but do not be afraid to learn from religion. Be dogmatic in your atheism.:p

"The Bible

(How not to do it)"


Yes. It is anti-consumerism direct action, it's infinitely cheaper than buying food, it decreases waste, and I don't get wracked by guilt for buying Israeli produce. Or any produce, to be fair.

I don't actually think it's a bad idea. It's just more of a nice thing than a philosophy though; if we all tried it it wouldn't work at all.

[PerpetualBurn]

No way.

Less people buying food means more stock is thrown out by companies means more free food for the people to nick.

Everyone should do it. Even CEOs. How can it fail?

[Auberge le Mouton Noir]

No way.

Less people buying food means more stock is thrown out by companies means more free food for the people to nick.

Everyone should do it. Even CEOs. How can it fail?

:lol:

"I just don't understand it. Your idea of increasing production to encourage demand was genius; just not genius enough, i gues..."

[coheneran]

I wouldn't bother. I see the only way one can like a truly vegan lifestyle is to only eat food gathered from natural plants, and only drink from mountain streams since humans are an animal to and stuff like pesto or wine is blatantly a product of humans. Who says that you have to physically generate physical matter to be <that word you guys always use

I have a friend who never buys any food, never has any money, only eats vegan stuff even though all his food is either skipped or stolen, is straight edge, doesn't use modern Western medicine because it's all tested on animals, is absolutely vegan in the most extreme sense of the word. He's the least hypocritical vegan/veggie I've ever met. Bar one person who only eats raw fruit and vegetables and never drinks water.

Human produce is vegan because humans have the ability to decide whether or not to work a certain job, and can stand up for themselves coherently and consistently. Animals can't.

I don't actually think it's a bad idea. It's just more of a nice thing than a philosophy though; if we all tried it it wouldn't work at all.

True, but if we all decided to be freegan, a huge part of the world's ecological problems would be solved, as well as social problems and health problems caused by consumerism (ecological solution because 10 billion animals a year gotta eat, drink, piss and ****, and it all has to come from/go somewhere)

No way.

Less people buying food means more stock is thrown out by companies means more free food for the people to nick.

Everyone should do it. Even CEOs. How can it fail?

:lol::lol: Supply and Demand got pwned.

[lfantwister]

Oi, Ali, come on MSN from time to time. It's quiet and boring without you online.

How was everyone's NYE/NYD partying?

Yeah I think I ****ed up the time-difference thing again. Don't worry though I'll be back

True, but if we all decided to be freegan, a huge part of the world's ecological problems would be solved, as well as social problems and health problems caused by consumerism (ecological solution because 10 billion animals a year gotta eat, drink, piss and ****, and it all has to come from/go somewhere)
:lol:

[Mr. Ron]

Keith Olbermann gives a rousing talk on Iraq and Bush's policies. Not sure how old it is, but it's pretty awesome.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYJqg0CU3xk

[PerpetualBurn]

I see your Keith Olbermann and I raise you one Jeremy Paxman compilation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCo7qbzEX3c

I love Paxman!

[Mr. Ron]

I see your Keith Olbermann and I raise you one Jeremy Paxman compilation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCo7qbzEX3c

I love Paxman!

Whooooooo boy, I hate it when politicians dodge questions.

[Smokey D]

Yes. It is anti-consumerism direct action, it's infinitely cheaper than buying food, it decreases waste, and I don't get wracked by guilt for buying Israeli produce. Or any produce, to be fair.

I don't get wracked by guilt for buying Israeli produce either. This is for the practical reason that I never buy Israeli produce and, ideologically, because not buying someone's produce based on their government's policies isn't very fair.

I do applaud the strength of your convictions, but they are so unhelpful in changing what you think are problems. You enjoy eaten discarded foods, the rest of us will enjoy the profits of civilisation.

But for the record, if you're against consumerism and waste and such, what are you doing on a computer?

On that last note, my mum told a local grocery store not to stock a certain brand of pickles because they're Israeli and we shouldn't support the Israeli economy, and the dude (very wisely) pointed out that they stock Coca-Cola and a hundred other American products, and America is far worse than Israel.

Well, as I said, I think it's pretty stupid to blame a individuals for the actions of their government which they may or may not believe in. Anyways, Coca-Cola is franchised, so the stuff they have stocked would be a British product.

[coheneran]

I don't get wracked by guilt for buying Israeli produce either. This is for the practical reason that I never buy Israeli produce and, ideologically, because not buying someone's produce based on their government's policies isn't very fair.

I do applaud the strength of your convictions, but they are so unhelpful in changing what you think are problems. You enjoy eaten discarded foods, the rest of us will enjoy the profits of civilisation.

But for the record, if you're against consumerism and waste and such, what are you doing on a computer?

Well, as I said, I think it's pretty stupid to blame a individuals for the actions of their government which they may or may not believe in. Anyways, Coca-Cola is franchised, so the stuff they have stocked would be a British product.

I don't throw my computer out after every session. And it's made up of lots of old computers. Besides which, some hypocrisy is inevitable when one has principles.

Aren't we constantly being told that all we can do about waste reduction as individuals is to recycle? Well, I'm just taking that a step further.

As for the profits of civilisation; enjoy them, because they won't last you much longer. The priviliges our "civilisation" (and it's not very civilised once you look at those who serve us) allows us are sucking the rest of the world dry and enslaving whole countries and peoples.

EDIT: As for boycotting Israeli goods, it's a pretty basic form fo economic targetting. Economic targetting has done a lot of good in the world. It's stopped HLS experimenting on animals for cosmetic companies, stopped many companies (including Barclays Bank) funding HLS, closed down loads of animal breeding farms, and done a lot of damage to Coca-Cola and Starbucks, and loads of other companies.

[Smokey D]

I don't throw my computer out after every session. And it's made up of lots of old computers. Besides which, some hypocrisy is inevitable when one has principles.


How much energy was wasted and how many people exploited in the production of your computer?

Aren't we constantly being told that all we can do about waste reduction as individuals is to recycle? Well, I'm just taking that a step further.

Food is a renewable resource. Recyclable goods aren't.

As for the profits of civilisation; enjoy them, because they won't last you much longer. The priviliges our "civilisation" (and it's not very civilised once you look at those who serve us) allows us are sucking the rest of the world dry and enslaving whole countries and peoples.

They will last long enough. And they don't require the enslavement of entire countries or anything so dramatic. There is nothing to suggest people can't be adequately compensated for their contributions.

[coheneran]

How much energy was wasted and how many people exploited in the production of your computer?

I don't know, but many, I'm sure. Unfortunately, it's already happened, and now I'm making the most use of it as I can. I don't go upgrading my computer at every new intel engine or whatever. And I use it as a tool to try to improve the lives of workers everywhere.

Food is a renewable resource. Recyclable goods aren't.

Yeah, all that renewable food rotting away in our grain silos. All that renewable food grown in banana republics. All those "illegal" people this system refuses to recognise yet depends on come harvest season. All those animals born in cages and dying in cages. Injected full of chemicals and pumped for their milk, never having walked more than half a mile in their life.

They will last long enough. And they don't require the enslavement of entire countries or anything so dramatic. There is nothing to suggest people can't be adequately compensated for their contributions.

Oh, how kind of you. I'm sure the couple of billion people who suffer from our pollution, wars, colonialism old and new, trade and system imposition will REALLY appreciate your "adequate compensation."

[Smokey D]

As for boycotting Israeli goods, it's a pretty basic form fo economic targetting. Economic targetting has done a lot of good in the world. It's stopped HLS experimenting on animals for cosmetic companies, stopped many companies (including Barclays Bank) funding HLS, closed down loads of animal breeding farms, and done a lot of damage to Coca-Cola and Starbucks, and loads of other companies.

Boycotting companies = good. Boycotting companies just because you disagree with the policies of their government = bad, except in rare circumstances.

I don't know, but many, I'm sure. Unfortunately, it's already happened, and now I'm making the most use of it as I can. I don't go upgrading my computer at every new intel engine or whatever. And I use it as a tool to try to improve the lives of workers everywhere.

Living in Britain, you have available to you a huge variety of industrially produced commodities which you draw on implicitly even if you are eating out of the trash.

Yeah, all that renewable food rotting away in our grain silos. All that renewable food grown in banana republics. All those "illegal" people this system refuses to recognise yet depends on come harvest season. All those animals born in cages and dying in cages.

You eating out of the trash doesn't help any of these.

Injected full of chemicals and pumped for their milk, never having walked more than half a mile in their life.

Eat organic.

Oh, how kind of you. I'm sure the couple of billion people who suffer from our pollution, wars, colonialism old and new, trade and system imposition will REALLY appreciate your "adequate compensation."

Of course they would, or it wouldn't be adequate.

[coheneran]

Boycotting companies = good. Boycotting companies just because you disagree with the policies of their government = bad, except in rare circumstances.

Such as when almost every company in that country owns factories in occupied territories?

Living in Britain, you have available to you a huge variety of industrially produced commodities which you draw on implicitly even if you are eating out of the trash.

Like I said, it's impossible to have principles and not by a hypocrite when you're living in a capitalist state. I do my best to change it, but I can't help some things yet. I do more than most people, thought that is not how I justify my hypocrisy to myself.

You eating out of the trash doesn't help any of these.

Me eating out of dumpsters reduces waste and helps empty landfills in as much the same degree as someone voting for Labour helps gets Labour in power.

Eat organic.

I try, but it doesn't really make much difference. Capitalism's ruined organic industry by now. Companies have put loads of pressure on the Soil Association (which judges what's organic and what isn't) and now it's substantially lowered the standards for organic food production.

Of course they would, or it wouldn't be adequate.

So, you're saying that once we flood half the world and burn the ozone layer away, you'll pay off all the people who haven't drowned? How praiseworthy.

Checkit:

ACTION ALERT
Europe Must End Their "Deforestation Biofuel" Energy Policy

Rainforest Portal, a project of Ecological Internet, Inc.
http://www.rainforestportal.org/
January 3, 2007

TAKE ACTION
Industrial biofuels threaten Rainforests and European land
sustainability

http://www.rainforestportal.org/alerts/send.asp?id=europe_biofuel

There exist serious concerns regarding the production of
plantation crops on lands cleared of ancient rainforests for
production of biodiesel in Europe in particular. For example,
remaining natural orangutan habitat and their rainforest
ecosystems in Southeast Asia are threatened by the unsustainable
harvesting of palm oil for the use of biofuels. The campaign to
stop Europe's "Deforestation Biofuel" Energy Policy is now at an
important decision point, as the European Commission is expected
to finalize the "Biomass Action Plan" policy by January 10th for
biofuels sourced from plantations cleared from ancient
rainforests. Earlier the European Parliament voted for rapid
market expansion before safeguards are put in place. Please tell
the European Commission now that they must prevent biofuels from
causing ever greater deforestation, biodiversity losses, and
evictions and impoverishment of local communities both in
tropical rainforests and Europe. Unrestrained industrial biofuel
expansion will accelerate, not slow down, climate change; as
peatlands, rainforests, forests and croplands across the world
are converted to energy crop monocultures and release their
carbon in the process.

TAKE ACTION NOW at:

http://www.rainforestportal.org/alerts/send.asp?id=europe_biofuel

Discuss this alert at:
http://www.rainforestportal.org/issues/2007/01/alert_europe_must_end_their_de.asp

[lfantwister]

Dear Eran:
You are out of your ****ing mind. With all due respect, that is :)

[coheneran]

Yeah well you should come online, NOW.

I'm not out of my mind, I just see things a different way to you guys. Perhaps more priviliged whities should take a stroll through the working class neighbourhoods and occupied warzones.

[lfantwister]

internet's been down for a while; this isnt my computer. No onlineness

I haven't been close to anything like a warzond (unless you count gang rivalries which can feel like it I think). But please don't assume that I don't understand the pains of working-class people

[coheneran]

If any Westerner can live like they do without trying to do a thing about the workers' sufferings, that person does not understand their "pains".

Frankly, we know **** about what people have to go through to survive. We live in a la-di-da fantasy world where evil scheming dictators force citizens to pick cotton at the end of a gun and modest but happy families skip down to their farms together to pick organic coffee which we buy off them at a fair price.

[lfantwister]

they skip?

[coheneran]

Allegedly.

[The Digital Pimp]

If any Westerner can live like they do without trying to do a thing about the workers' sufferings, that person does not understand their "pains".

Frankly, we know **** about what people have to go through to survive. We live in a la-di-da fantasy world where evil scheming dictators force citizens to pick cotton at the end of a gun and modest but happy families skip down to their farms together to pick organic coffee which we buy off them at a fair price.

Actually, the happy families are going to the department store to buy the clothes made from the cotton picked under the dictatorship, because it's cheaper.

[coheneran]

Yup. And nobody can farm to sustain themselves because they live in a banana republic in a free trade zone forced on them by a nation they're not allowed to enter.

[PerpetualBurn]

If any Westerner can live like they do without trying to do a thing about the workers' sufferings, that person does not understand their "pains".

Frankly, we know **** about what people have to go through to survive. We live in a la-di-da fantasy world where evil scheming dictators force citizens to pick cotton at the end of a gun and modest but happy families skip down to their farms together to pick organic coffee which we buy off them at a fair price.

Bono wants his opening speech back.

[coheneran]

Bono wants his opening speech back.

:lol:

That media whore can suck my balls. How can those two preach that crap and then go back to their million pound cars and their 20 million pound mansions? Seriously, Bono's dreaming if he thinks money can save the world.

Oh, and I'm beginning to think that people didn't get the irony in that speech. Not you Andy.

[PerpetualBurn]

When you have principles, some hypocrisy is bound to occur.

[coheneran]

When you have principles, some hypocrisy is bound to occur.

Yes. Can you see though that being a multi hundred millionaire and then telling the middle classes to stop living in spoiled luxury is unnecessarily hypocritical and easily fixable (without any great loss of comfort)?

[PerpetualBurn]

So hypocrisy is only okay when you say it's okay?

[coheneran]

Pretty much, yeah. I'm not comfortable with my hypocrisy, but I can see that to not be a hypocrite would mean giving up completely on trying to improve the world. I'm not scared to be a hypocrite as much as I'm scared of being passive.

Oh, don't forget leading by example, that comes in there. If I preach something, I'm sure as hell gonna do it before telling others to do it.

[PerpetualBurn]

How exactly do you expect to improve the world?

[coheneran]

Only one answer to that, and it rhymes with solution.:p

[PerpetualBurn]

Even though most people like things the way they are?

[coheneran]

Well, most white middle to upper class people, anyway. Which isn't actually most, when you come to think about it. But they'll come around, they'll ALL come around! Muha, muhahhahahahahaha!

Right, I'm off to play Deus Ex and pretend I'm a hardcore revolutionary who slays Gray Death bums in his spare time. See ya'll on tha flippety side.

[PerpetualBurn]

I like how you pretend the average working class man will be open to your cause.

You're too ideological and not enough of a realist.

[lfantwister]

YOu say that like it's a bad thing

He provides excellent entertainment

[PerpetualBurn]

You're saying I'm not entertaining?

Because that may make me sob.

[lfantwister]

Youre entertaining too
More sarcastic like let's laugh at that fool together!
whereas dear old eran is just out of his mind

[PerpetualBurn]

His naivety is both endearing and frustrating.

[lfantwister]

How about Eran's endearing and you're frustrating

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm just misunderstood.

[Smokey D]

Such as when almost every company in that country owns factories in occupied territories?

Surely it would be a better idea to research which Israeli companies have factories in the occupied territories and boycott them while continuing to buy from companies which support withdrawal.



Me eating out of dumpsters reduces waste and helps empty landfills in as much the same degree as someone voting for Labour helps gets Labour in power.

It doesn't really reduce waste, and food is not a long lasting item in landfills.

I try, but it doesn't really make much difference. Capitalism's ruined organic industry by now. Companies have put loads of pressure on the Soil Association (which judges what's organic and what isn't) and now it's substantially lowered the standards for organic food production.

Raise your own chickens.

So, you're saying that once we flood half the world and burn the ozone layer away, you'll pay off all the people who haven't drowned? How praiseworthy.

If it's not sufficient compensation, it's not adequate.

Checkit:
There exist serious concerns regarding the production of
plantation crops on lands cleared of ancient rainforests for
production of biodiesel in Europe in particular. For example,
remaining natural orangutan habitat and their rainforest
ecosystems in Southeast Asia are threatened by the unsustainable
harvesting of palm oil for the use of biofuels. The campaign to
stop Europe's "Deforestation Biofuel" Energy Policy is now at an
important decision point, as the European Commission is expected
to finalize the "Biomass Action Plan" policy by January 10th for
biofuels sourced from plantations cleared from ancient
rainforests. Earlier the European Parliament voted for rapid
market expansion before safeguards are put in place. Please tell
the European Commission now that they must prevent biofuels from
causing ever greater deforestation, biodiversity losses, and
evictions and impoverishment of local communities both in
tropical rainforests and Europe. Unrestrained industrial biofuel
expansion will accelerate, not slow down, climate change; as
peatlands, rainforests, forests and croplands across the world
are converted to energy crop monocultures and release their
carbon in the process..

I know this. So what?

[coheneran]

Surely it would be a better idea to research which Israeli companies have factories in the occupied territories and boycott them while continuing to buy from companies which support withdrawal.

<<<<<<<Anti-capitalist??

It doesn't really reduce waste, and food is not a long lasting item in landfills.

Considering we pull loads of stuff out of dumpsters, yes, yes it does reduce waste. Not much. Barely. A tiny miniscule unimportant amount. But still does. And it discourages consumerism among those that do it. Most importantly, it's free.

Raise your own chickens.

No, but I will grow my own vegetables, when I have the space to do so.

If it's not sufficient compensation, it's not adequate.

What the hell is sufficient compensation for five hundred years of colonialism and all it entails?! Most of those poor people are gonna be dead in a hundred years time, and not from old age.

I know this. So what?

So nothing. Just interesting. Kind of like what happened with organic food quality. It shows that capitalism can't be sustainable.

[lfantwister]

Raise your own chickens.
Although I'm a staunch capitalist, I do have chickens...

So nothing. Just interesting. Kind of like what happened with organic food quality. It shows that capitalism can't be sustainable

Sorry do you want to explain how exactly that logic works?

[PerpetualBurn]

I want to make a joke about putting your eggs in one basket.

But it'd be rubbish.

[lfantwister]

Yeah I only have one chicken.

It's the middle of LA. It's hard to have more than that.

[PerpetualBurn]

I'm still envious.

My Uni won't even let me keep a rat in halls.

[lfantwister]

Then how did they let you attend?

SOrry that was awful