Coltrane's later work

[Joseph India]

I am interested in what people think about John Coltrane's "Avant Garde" period
The exact beginning is hard to pin-point, but I am most interested in everything after A Love Supreme

examples of albums (not in exact order)

Ascension
Om
Meditations
Sun Ship
Africa Brass
Kulu Se Mama
Live in Japan
Stellar Regions
Interstellar Space
Expression
The Olatunji Concert


I am especially interested in the experiences had by people who do not like this music, but do like his earlier stuff. At what point do you stop liking it? And from people who DO like it, I want to know what kind of interesting experiences you have had with it.

Is it important music in your opinion? why or not?

Comments about people closely related to Coltrane are also welcome.
(Albert Ayler, Anthony Braxton, Pharoah Sanders etc. maybe Cecil Taylor or Ornette Coleman)

(though it may sound like it, this is not for a research project)

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

It reminds me of the phrasing of the people speaking in tongues at the church when I was young.

That divine channeling is what got me interested in music, Coltrane's got it.

[jazzfromhell]

I have yet to hear anything involving John Coltrane that I don't like, no matter the period (although I'm still a ways off from having comprehensively listened to his entire output). Of the albums you listed, I've heard Ascension and Interstellar Space, and love them both.

This period for Coltrane was important to the entire jazz scene because, in a way, it validated free/avant garde jazz. When Coltrane started playing this stuff, the only two other major figures playing it were Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, and their associates. Ornette Coleman could be dismissed as someone who was simply too lazy to play correctly, as more or less of a fake, and no one knew about Cecil Taylor, he was still alternating between washing dishes and playing music to bring in money. But when Coltrane, who every jazz listener with half a brain knew was among the most technically players of the time (and of all time, but I don't know if they recognized that or not) started pushing the limits even farther than Ornette was (Cecil was already all the way out, but like I said, not many people knew it), it sort of paved the way for the avant-garde to be recognized as a "true" art form. Also, on top of all that, it is, of course, excellent music. :)


I love all of the others you mentioned, although none so much as Coltrane (Cecil would be my next favorite). I saw Pharoah Sanders two weeks ago, and Ornette last November, both concerts were excellent. Art Ensemble of Chicago would be the next name I would add to that list, in fact, I'd add it before Pharoah Sanders.

[jazzfromhell]

Oh, and as for experiences, can't say I've had many. I listened to A Love Supreme last Christmas Eve, and I've listened to Ascension with Trout Mask Replica playing at the same time. The latter was pretty cool, the opening notes sort of flow together.

[Tillmon]

Interstellar Space is one of my favorite albums of all time.

Ascension... I own it and love it, but it's easier to appreciate when you're high.

[Joseph India]

jazzfromhell
You should e-mail me
(I have info about Cecil Taylor you might be interested in)
josephmusic@bluebottle.com

[Rams]

Coltrane's always been the most frustrating musician I have ever heard. He has moments where he truly lives up to his billing as the best jazz saxophone player ever ... then he has his moments where he just noodles around and is completely unbearable. Far too often these moments intersect each other on his albums. The only "perfect" album of his I can find is with Johnny Hartman. With Coltrane, everything seems so jumbled up that there is never a point where I start and stop liking.

Now I don't know if I fit into the category of someone who likes his earlier stuff, but I can't stand his avant-garde period. I find he takes too much pride in being as abrasive as possible and doesn't make a soundscape that I find enjoyable (I felt this from A Love Supreme on). Chaos is fun and all, but I much prefer serenity.

His playing, as jazzfromhell meantioned, is very important to the form. Much in the same way as Miles using electric instruments and playing around with jazz-rock, Coltrane's name helped validate avant-garde jazz as a style.

The other guys you meantioned, I enjoy a lot. I haven't heard a lot of Ayler, but Spiritual Unity is a top notch album. Anthony Braxton has been hit and miss with me. He himself is someone I enjoy listening to a lot, but his group mates usually let me down. The less the better with him. Pharoah Sanders, pre-cheesy '80s effects, played some of the best avant-garde work I have heard. Karma, Jewels Of Thought, and Summun Bukmun Umyun are just beautifully played. Cecil has been one of my favorite pianists ever since getting by his Unit Structures album (which I think is terrible). Everything else I have heard from him has been really good; he can be atonal to the point that I hear a melody or harmony in my head that works.

[baggagebassman]

I love Coltrane's later work. I've always liked avant-garde jazz and Trane's is some of the best. Interstellar Space is one of my favorite albums.

[Joseph India]

to Rams and other people who dont like Trane's Avant Garde stuff

What albums/tracks have you heard that you find unbearable?
Do you think he means to be chaotic?

I am not trying to argue at all, I seek only understanding of your opinions

Thanks everyone

[Krabsworth]

Rams is inquiring that Trane played too many notes. I feel that way sometimes.

[Zappa]

My Favorite Things appears to be the last Coltrane album I really like, with Interstellar Space being an outlier.

[Joseph India]

Again, I want examples of works that you do not like.

And here is a quote form Ravi Coltrane. His own son even had trouble getting his later stuff.
"...(i)n much of his last period, the palette is so broad, there was so much happening, that I was listening to the music without hearing what was really going on. But through Stellar Regions I gained a series of associations I could use while listening to the other music from the time. I think when you are listening to some of his longer solos you eventually just bale out, your brain shuts down after twenty minutes or so through the sheer overload of ideas. But these tunes are all four or five minutes, which was very uncommon in my father's work. Listening to them honed my ear...and when I went back to other discs from the time, I found I was able to focus in better on what was going on, even in the broadest palettes."
-Ravi Coltrane

[(*The Noonward Race*)]

Well I don't see a single thing that's not right.. know what I mean? Like, nothing needs to be changed. As in, "why?".

[Rams]

to Rams and other people who dont like Trane's Avant Garde stuff

What albums/tracks have you heard that you find unbearable?
Do you think he means to be chaotic?

Albums I like from Trane:
Lush Life
Blue Train
My Favorite Things
Coltrane's Sound
Coltrane Jazz
John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman
Crescent

Albums I don't like from Trane:
Giant Steps
The Avant Garde
Olé Coltrane
Newport '63
A Love Supreme
Kulu Se Mama
Ascension
Om
Meditations
Stellar Regions
Interstellar Space

Out of the albums I don't like, Kulu Se Mama is the only one that has a track I like ("Selflessness"), other than that, there's not a track in there that I enjoy listening to.


Does he mean to be chaotic? Definately. If he didn't he wouldn't set up and play in a group that is based around an abundance of noise and dissonance.

[Joseph India]

Wow! you listened to all those albums without liking nearly any of it?
I'm not a big fan of Giant Steps either or Ascension Edition 1 (but Edition 2 is great) To each his own, of course. I applaud you for giving him so many chances.

I'm starting to see your point of view Rams. But it's becoming clear that words like "chaotic" or "noise" do not make communication completely lucid. I understand what you mean though, you are right to use those words.
It's just that I probably have a different understanding of his music and words like "chaotic" (I definitely dont think he wants his band to stop listening to each other and wiggle their fingers around randomly)
I agree that most of it is dissonant, that is a fact!
Thanks

[Rams]

Wow! you listened to all those albums without liking nearly any of it?
I'm not a big fan of Giant Steps either or Ascension Edition 1 (but Edition 2 is great) To each his own, of course. I applaud you for giving him so many chances.

The radio station I work at has them all, so when I am just sitting around not setting stuff up, I find something to listen to. All of them aren't horrendous throughout, for example Cherry is really good on The Avant Garde but doesn't make the over all tracks enjoyable. And he always seems to have some sort of hook for me, something that sounds so good that makes me think "maybe this time it'll continue into something." It also helps that I am a fan of avant-garde jazz.

I'm starting to see your point of view Rams. But it's becoming clear that words like "chaotic" or "noise" do not make communication completely lucid. I understand what you mean though, you are right to use those words.
It's just that I probably have a different understanding of his music and words like "chaotic" (I definitely dont think he wants his band to stop listening to each other and wiggle their fingers around randomly)
I agree that most of it is dissonant, that is a fact!

Avant-garde jazz & free jazz seem to be based so much on interpretation that it's hard to find a general consensus about the music. I guess I just don't find Coltrane's ideas all that interesting, and I find his sense of avant garde music to be a bit too much to listen to. With me, it's always been the more space the better in avant outfits.

[Grant]

I love John Coltrane's music, but two albums that I've always hated are Ascension and Om. There are times when his playing is too esoteric and I personally believe he was a better sideman with Miles, Monk, and Duke than as a leader.

[pianoplyr77]

I personally believe he was a better sideman with Miles, Monk, and Duke than as a leader.

I agree completely, especially with Monk.

[jazzfunkboy]

i love his avant garde stuff. it takes a while to be able to really understand it in my opinion, but its worth it.

i could see why some people wouldnt like it though- some of it sounds unfocused, its very dissonent, etc.

but, its still my favorite kind of music.

[Tillmon]

Man, I don't understand how some of you can't enjoy Giant Steps or A Love Supreme, to me those are two of the greatest albums in existence.

[jazzfromhell]

^Word.