Extending the scale?

[vashts80]

Hey guys, another question from me.

I asked about this over on TB in the Essex thread, but I haven't gotten much of a reply about it, so here it goes:

I have a 34" scaled 5-string fretless. My low B is loose unless I have the action all the way up (which I do) with a.130, and even then it's still a tiny bit loose. If I was to get a new bridge (or simply move the old one back one inch) and get a Warmoth (or some other company) fretless neck, would that work? Or is there some physics or something involved in extending the scale length of a bass?

I'm also wanting a new neck because I want an ebony fingerboard, since my rounds are making pretty nice imprints into my rosewood fingerboard already from slapping/popping or aggressive playing.

Has anybody tried this before, whether it be on an SX or Fender or ESP or whatever bass? If so, did it work?

[Low_End_Communications]

Not a good idea, especially not with the cheap *** SX. It's a great bass for the cash, but that kind of upgrade wouldn't be worth it.

It won't work out too well. Cuz most necks built for 35" scale need to work in conjunction with a body and bridge placement for the scale length.

[moghes69]

if its an unlined fretless it should work fine, but if its lined, then the lines would be completely off.

[Akira]

Jaco moved his bridge back, right?

[Chaos]

I've tuned down my E to B and other low tunings, it gets wobbly but I pick closer to the bridge, and it doesn't flap around really.

Just refine your technique, don't pick as hard.

[FunkMetalBass]

If there are fretmarkers of any kind that you use as reference points, then you'll have to cover them up to do it.

It would work just fine.

Go ahead and do it if you want.

And to whoever said it, I believe Jaco moved his up to make it 32", but the same concept.

[vashts80]

if its an unlined fretless it should work fine, but if its lined, then the lines would be completely off.

I could get an unlined neck if I wanted, as my current neck is a lined, however why wouldn't it work if I were to get a neck setup for 35" scale?

[moghes69]

it would work, just if its a crappy bass, you'd be wasting money on an excessive mod.

also, if you get a 35" scale neck, then you shouldn't have to move the bridge.

[FunkMetalBass]

I could get an unlined neck if I wanted, as my current neck is a lined, however why wouldn't it work if I were to get a neck setup for 35" scale?

It would...assuming the neck fit.

If it's a somewhat cheap bass, you'd probably spend as much, if not more, for the neck than you did the entire bass.

You'd probably be better off pulling the lines out, and filling them with wood filler.

[vashts80]

Honestly, I don't care how much it costs. I'll probably be getting a Carvin 6 fretless before I do this mod, I just wanna do it so I have a nice 5-string fretless Jazz to play with. I might not do this mod if I get my 6, I might just string the 5 tenor. It all depends on how I feel when I get the money to play with this stuff.

But yeah. I thought I'd need to move the bridge back to get a 35" scaled neck to be intonated correctly? Or how does it work? I'm kinda new at the whole "production of basses" stuff.

[Akira]

If you move the bridge back you do not need a new neck.
Intonation isn't really an issue, because you can just change where your fingers are.

[moghes69]

the 35" scale neck would be an inch longer than the old neck, so you wouldn't need to move the bridge. you might have to adjust the saddles for better intonation, but the bridge would be fine where it was.

[Akira]

the 35" scale neck would be an inch longer than the old neck, so you wouldn't need to move the bridge. you might have to adjust the saddles for better intonation, but the bridge would be fine where it was.
Exactly. You have to move the bridge or get a new neck. Not both. If you don't mind losing a little range, just move the bridge. It is free, unlike getting a new neck.

[Wintermute]

Bear in mind that even unlined necks usually have side dots, and that they would also be completely out of line. You would be playing completely blind.

If you already have a fretless, try playing it with your eyes closed for a while. It's not at all easy. You don't want to end up with a bass you can't use.

Rather than moving the bridge back, I'd be looking for a 35" scale replacement neck. FAR fewer complications, and your side-dots would be accurate.

[edgebass5]

Rather than moving the bridge back, I'd be looking for a 35" scale replacement neck. FAR fewer complications, and your side-dots would be accurate.

Remember that the measurement of scale is twice the distance of the 12th fret to the nut, OR twice the distance from the 12th fret to the bridge. Putting a 35" scale neck on a bass with a 34" scale bridge position will result in off-intonation as well.

[Wintermute]

True, you'd have to move the bridge too. But at least that way the markings on the neck would be accurate.

It would be nightmarish to play an unlined fretless with the side-markings in the wrong places. Seriously.

[edgebass5]

^^^Well, if you got a longer scale neck and didn't adjust the bridge the side position markers would still be out of place. Adjusting to a true 35" neck and bridge layout would be the ONLY way to make them accurate.

[moghes69]

but if the neck is made for a bass with the same bridge placement, then wouldnt leaving the bridge where it is be okay?

[LewsTherin]

^^^Well, if you got a longer scale neck and didn't adjust the bridge the side position markers would still be out of place. Adjusting to a true 35" neck and bridge layout would be the ONLY way to make them accurate.


with the proper neck, all youd need to do is reintonate, without drastically altering the bridge position, right?

[Akira]

What he is saying is that the bass would be technically palyable, but the improperly placed position markers would make playign it a bitch.

[LewsTherin]

What he is saying is that the bass would be technically palyable, but the improperly placed position markers would make playign it a bitch.

and what im saying is, it should be perfectly possible and plausible to get a neck that is both playable and which has properly placed position markers.

[Wintermute]

and what im saying is, it should be perfectly possible and plausible to get a neck that is both playable and which has properly placed position markers.

Yes, as long as it's a 35" neck, AND you move the bridge. The distance between the nut and the 12th fret has to be exactly the same as the distance between the 12th fret and the bridge for the markings to be accurate.

In theory, I suppose you could do it by changing intonation, as long as your saddles would go back far enough... certainly worth a try before you start moving things. But honestly, I'd be surprised.

[LewsTherin]

Yes, as long as it's a 35" neck, AND you move the bridge. The distance between the nut and the 12th fret has to be exactly the same as the distance between the 12th fret and the bridge for the markings to be accurate.

I know that.


Edge simply seems to be making it look like such a thing is purely impossible.


EDIT: You should be able to do it with a simple reintonation via the saddles. I mean, if its 8" from the saddle's median position to the back of the neck pocket, then you just need a neck thats 9.5" from the end of the neck to the 12th fret, then 17.5" from the 12th fret to the nut.

The only problem is getting a neck thats built right for your basses body.

[Wintermute]

No, it's possible.

Oh, but I should mention it could change your tone. Harmonic positions are relative to string length, so your pickups will be, in effect, positioned differently. How pronounced the change would be I couldn't say. It could be for the better, or for the worse... depending on your personal tastes, and your pickups.

Edit - you may well be able to do it with re-intonation. Honestly, I've never tried. But do be prepared to move the bridge if you can't intonate far enough.

[LewsTherin]

No, it's possible.

Oh, but I should mention it could change your tone. Harmonic positions are relative to string length, so your pickups will be, in effect, positioned differently. How pronounced the change would be I couldn't say - and it might be a change for the better, I suppose. It would depend on your personal tastes, and your pickups.


I know its possible. I also remember Edge denying wholeheartedly that baritone conversion necks can be properly intonated.

By extending your scale, without moving the bridge back, you would be getting more treble, i think, since everything would be relatively closer to the bridge, but I cant imagine itd be a huge change.

[Wintermute]

By extending your scale, without moving the bridge back, you would be getting more treble, i think, since everything would be relatively closer to the bridge, but I cant imagine itd be a huge change.

But you would be moving the bridge back. Even if you just did it with intonation. It's the position of the saddles that count, after all.

[edgebass5]

Edge simply seems to be making it look like such a thing is purely impossible.
All I've said thus far is in regards to position markers and intonation, and furthermore everything I've said has been accurate. Never once did I say it would be impossible.

I also remember Edge denying wholeheartedly that baritone conversion necks can be properly intonated.
I'm quite sure that I didn't. My knowledge of baritone guitars is limited to the point of me simply knowing they exist. I've never even discussed them due to my lack of knowledge on the subject.

[LewsTherin]

All I've said thus far is in regards to position markers and intonation, and furthermore everything I've said has been accurate. Never once did I say it would be impossible.

Adjusting to a true 35" neck and bridge layout would be the ONLY way to make them accurate.


I didnt say you actually said so, merely that that was the picture you were painting, as it were.



I'm quite sure that I didn't. My knowledge of baritone guitars is limited to the point of me simply knowing they exist. I've never even discussed them due to my lack of knowledge on the subject.

Im quite sure you did. The conversation wasnt about baritone guitars so much as the necks used to extend a guitars scale from the usual ~24" or so to 30", to facilitate baritone tuning. You expressed your beleif that using such a neck would result in the inability to intonate at all.

[edgebass5]

^^^I'm 110% positive that I did not. As I said early, my knowledge of baritone instruments is virtually non-existant.

That being said; prove me wrong and I'll agree with you, but until you do, I'm sure that I have not argued on such a topic.

[vashts80]

I love how I come up with a decent idea, and then it's crushed because Warmoth's Deluxe 5 necks are 34" scaled necks. I was looking at the Gecko 5necks, but I don't think it will work. All in all this seems like a pretty futile effort unless I can find a company that makes 5-string 35" fretless necks for a jazz copy.

If I can't, I'll just string my 5er tenor and maybe upgrade the pickups and leave it at that when I get my Carvin 6.

[Wintermute]

Try approaching a luthier about it. See if JP will make you one. I know when Jamie wanted a new neck on his Schecter, Jon Shuker cut him a pretty good deal.