My Geetarist anti theory approach?

[CARMEN77]

http://media.putfile.com/guitar-185 - SONG HE CREATED, please give him/ I some feed back.


Hello everyone,

I am a drummer whos posting this concening a guitarist Ive know for my whole life. We have been jamming recently and I am a little confused at his approach to making music.

My friend is very uneducated about timing, scales, progressions and basically all building blocks people use to create songs. He basically has a "if it sounds good it works" attitude, now I do not know if this is bad or good thing...

So far he basically just writes a riff, remeber he doesnt understand timing or "being in time", then sends it to me via computer and I Hammer out a beat or fill. Now we have only done this with a few riffs, and overall I dont get the impression that the music will "go somewhere". His riffs are always extremely akward, and diffcult to play along too.


He is going to send me another riff today, so when I get it ill upload it to the board and you guys can decide. He has started to learn some lamb of god and opeth songs, but he is extremely sloppy when playing them. He just started alt picking and cant string skip...Hes been playing for 3 years and Ive been playing for 6 months and I can alt pick better, play clean scale runs and string skip. I fear he is a little over confident of his ablitiy as he says he is as good as the dudes from lamb o god.

I like this kid and I really want to start a band with him, but for some reason I think we are approaching the idea of a "band" in the wrong way. Should I approach him and tell him to take lessons? I know some of you will say to just leave him and find another guitarist, but I have hope. I want to urge him to become better, less cocky and to expand his mind!

Thanks for all the advice/help/suggestions/flames

Ps...If any of you post on the guitar forum youll notic this post is there aswell. I wanted to get opinions from both guitarists and drummers! Thank you for understanding...

[FL3P]

I used to play with a guy who could play the parts but had no concept of time or feel. I think you need to jam together and slow things down and show him where the notes go se he understands.

[spirit]

There's nothing wrong with that attitude as such, as it's worked for a number of skilled axe weilders, but the lack of timing and feel is a problem. It doesn't matter if he knows exactly what he's playing, but more how he's playing it.

[moogoogaipan]

I'd be interested to hear what he's got.

You don't absolutely need theory... if you are great and started young.
It's all about your ears. Some of the greatest jazz players new squat about theory, but had an ear that could pick out scales without even knowing what they were. I have a feeling that this isn't the case for your guitarist... so for him...theory is a must.

[spike9908]

well, the "if it sounds good" idea isnt necessarly bad if he can repeat it, but he should deffentally have at least some timing.

i know a guitarist who will go with the "sounds good" idea in jam sessions if its just for fun, but he has a really good understanding of theory and progression and all that.

[nonsense!]

Jimi Hendrix.

[Loyton]

I'd be interested to hear what he's got.

You don't absolutely need theory... if you are great and started young.
It's all about your ears. Some of the greatest jazz players new squat about theory, but had an ear that could pick out scales without even knowing what they were. I have a feeling that this isn't the case for your guitarist... so for him...theory is a must.

Well said, +1

[FockerTheLopper]

My old guitarist was like that, I told him don't learn to read just learn what notes are where and what chords are where so I don't have to tell you everything like a child I can just tell you something and you play it. Never happened. He plays for a hardcore band now. It was so bad. I'd be like play E5 Gmajor C Major A5, he'd be like what? I'd be like top open powerchord, 320003 32010 second open string powerchord. It took so long. People like that aren't worth playing with if its not a jam. You won't make progress.

[Drum Monkey]

Put it this way, if you are in a band and you can't keep time, well, what the hell? There are even famous guitarists who don't know theory, don't have a profound knowledge of music and stuff like that, but they must be able to keep time...

I think if he got some books or something it would help him lots. Knowledge never hurt.

-DM

[DuckinFutch8]

I'd definitaly suggest to him to get a teacher.

[some jive turkey]

I wouldn't drop him if you guys have a chemistry. It sounds silly but it counts for a lot in a band. I've played with some amazing players who I just didn't get along with after awhile. It starts to wear really thin.

Do make your concerns about his dubious musicianship known though, but don't be a **** about it. Just try to help him figure stuff out and honestly try to improve the music. I would caution you to make all the songwriting arrangements etched in stone though. I HATE HATE HATE when song"writers" just noodle around with crap and waste an entire bands time with trying to decide on how many times to play this, or that, or insert a new section into the song each week. F-ck all that.

[moogoogaipan]

I HATE HATE HATE when song"writers" just noodle around with crap and waste an entire bands time with trying to decide on how many times to play this, or that, or insert a new section into the song each week. F-ck all that.

yeah, leave that to us jazz musicians... we're better at that.

[ThugsRook]

I HATE HATE HATE when song"writers" just noodle around with crap and waste an entire bands time with trying to decide on how many times to play this, or that...
thats why i do all the song arrangements when writing new material. it solves alot of problems.


for the threadstarter ~ whatever your guitarist is doing, he needs to able to do it with other ppl. somehow try and explain that to him in a possitive way.


:chug:

[some jive turkey]

yeah, leave that to us jazz musicians... we're better at that.

well even in jazz, I like structure. I know it sounds antithetical to the very nature of jazz, but I like to know the form of a tune, the intro, what's happening in the ending. Then, you can get crazy with playing the song. If you have to sit there and kind of guess what's going to happen next (when to go to the change), yours and everyone's playing is just apprehensive (not to mention flaky)

I guess it's just a matter of bringing unfinished songs to a band rehearsal and wasting everyones time tinkering with the arrangment.

[some jive turkey]

thats why i do all the song arrangements when writing new material. it solves alot of problems.


bravo

:chug:

[Fade like a sigh]

I have friends that are exactly like that. Only i pussed out and just kinda went along. I've dropped so many hints that it is ridiculous. This has lasted years now. So, it won't stop unless you end it. However if your friendship is more important, just let it ride.

[moogoogaipan]

well even in jazz, I like structure. I know it sounds antithetical to the very nature of jazz, but I like to know the form of a tune, the intro, what's happening in the ending. Then, you can get crazy with playing the song. If you have to sit there and kind of guess what's going to happen next (when to go to the change), yours and everyone's playing is just apprehensive (not to mention flaky)

I guess it's just a matter of bringing unfinished songs to a band rehearsal and wasting everyones time tinkering with the arrangment.
I know... I was just being elitist. Of course being prepared is always good... plus even jazz musicians can't always predict a dead stop in the music unless it's discussed beforehand

[Bonham#1!]

My old rythm guitarist was like that and the best wy to handle it is.........kick his white @$$ out

[CARMEN77]

http://media.putfile.com/guitar-185 Audio added, BUMP

[some jive turkey]

well I've certainly heard worse.

1. timing is "a little" shaky
2. on a first listen, -kind of sounded like some of it was in 3/4 some of it probably in 4---all that stuff has to be clearly worked out before you even start the song. Make sure he understands what a time signature is if he's going to play stuff like that. I won't play those kind of tunes unless I have changes on paper(which I have to notate for myself a lot of times due to rampant musical illiteracy among rock musicians). It's my way of ensuring that the songwriter knows what they're doing. ("hey assfungus, that's not the way the song went last week, I have it right here")

It's a pet peeve & I'm a stubborn arse about it, but otherwise learning the songs is just harder than it needs to be. If it takes longer than 5 minutes for a songwriter to explain their ideas for the song to me, then I know they don't have it together. Yes, I am a huge snob.



If you're practicing with this guy and trying to work on tunes, then I would suggest you work on one at a time, and try to finish each one within one rehearsal. If you don't happen to finish it, be sure to write down (or record it, if you can't write it out) so you have a clear idea of what's happening.

I didn't think his ideas were bad, for metal. I don't even really dig a whole lot of metal bands, there are a few I really like, but good music is good no matter what genre.

[Sthrudel]

I don't see anything wrong with that audio. I'm not a metal guy, but that playing was decent to me. It has some odd stuff, but an experienced drummer should handle that. Well I guess yours 6 months of playing won't do it...

[black guy]

seemed fine to me. i think the problem is with you.

[FockerTheLopper]

The song is pretty good. He sounds unsure during the middle though and he doesn't know what hes playing so most other things he writes will probably be similar and different ones won't make sense

[LittlePound]

yeah, my old band had no concept of time or counting. All they new were notes/chords but htey gave up on scales. But they didn't really write much weird stuff, most of it was pretty standard 4/4 or 6/8 and had a lot of cool stuff in it. I wish i was that musically endowed to play w/o learning first but ohwell.

[Carn]

http://media.putfile.com/guitar-185 - SONG HE CREATED, please give him/ I some feed back.

I fear he is a little over confident of his ablitiy as he says he is as good as the dudes from lamb o god.


Those Lamb of God dudes have been playing guitar for 15 to 20+ years, I sincerely doubt your friends claim. Being able to play a song has zero relevancy to the skill of the songwriter.