w.t.f?!?!??!?!

[PERFECTXDARK]

Hey mxers,so to make my story short,today I went to bass guitar lessons and me and my teacher were practicing theory as normal and I was being quizzed on my notes and I messed up a few times,so he ended up getting on this topic by saying that "music and math are basically the same thing" now I find that very biased because I am good at music but bad at math,now I can see how a bit of basic math is in music but I hate when people compare music to math and say how there exactly alike then he got on this topic of how you need a 80% in math to get into humber (he plans to attend but I dont think he has his facts straight) so im a little confused? give me your input have you guys ever had anything somewhat similar?
I brought up EADG telling me that he had a 90 in music but a 40 in math? I told him that but he seemed to think that was bull****?? so im very confused
give me your input

[Akira]

Math and music have similar streaks. High-level theory is not that different from certain types of math. But that doesn't mean a musician would be a good mathemetician, or vice versa.

[PERFECTXDARK]

Yes that worried me,thanks for your input but it also worried me him saying you need a 80% to get into a music college...im getting stressed out about music college...anyway keep posting.

[Esp Griffyn]

Certianly, maths could be brought into it, but I wouldnt look into it that deeply, I simply dont think the statement "Music and Math are basically the same thing" is anywhere close to being true

[basgitarist]

I think music it's lots of math. Especially music theory. Math can be used to simplify so many things in music. Try to google for studies on the circle of fifths, you'd be amazed!

You could use maths for example finding notes on your neck;
B on the 7th fret on the E string, is 7-5=2nd fret on the A string.
or 7+12-5-5=9th fret on the D string. 9+7=16th fret on the G string. And so on.

(these are just easy examples) You could also calculate how the 5th degree of the 3th chord of a key, relates to the 1st chord of that same key

3+5-1=7

I might be a bit unclear, i´m sorry about that..

[PERFECTXDARK]

Well I dont really give 2 s***'s what he or people think just the music college part is scareing me because I am terriblea at math I just dont grasp it,

[PERFECTXDARK]

I think music it's lots of math. Especially music theory. Math can be used to simplify so many things in music. Try to google for studies on the circle of fifths, you'd be amazed!

You could use maths for example finding notes on your neck;
B on the 7th fret on the E string, is 7-5=2nd fret on the A string.
or 7+12-5-5=9th fret on the D string. 9+7=16th fret on the G string. And so on.

(these are just easy examples) You could also calculate how the 5th degree of the 3th chord of a key, relates to the 1st chord of that same key

3+5-1=7

I might be a bit unclear, i´m sorry about that..

It's not stuff like that im worried about I do some of that math related stuff im just worried about the 80% math mark to get into a music college,and that people say that math and music are exactly alike.

[Phalanx]

I supposed it similar to toddler maths, but I haven't seen many Quadratic equations on my sheet music

[basgitarist]

Ah but I don't think thats true. I don't think it'll be much harder then the last example I gave. Your music teacher probably wouldn't ask you what the square root of Bminor is....

[MuRd0K]

Music is a universal language. Something that everybody can understand.

Math is also a universal language. A 3+3 here is a 3+3 everywhere.

That's their only similarity. Everything else is subjective to each person.

[Munky_Jam]

he's right about the universal language thing. thats very true.
and yes maths is involved IN EVERYTHiNG (almost)

[Akira]

People saying like square root of B minor are not thinking into it. Music isn't related to math in that sense, it is much more abstract.

[Left Shoe]

People saying like square root of B minor are not thinking into it. Music isn't related to math in that sense, it is much more abstract.
care to explain

[MuRd0K]

I hate it when people think of music, an art, as a science. It ruins the whole sense of creativity and irrationality, which are 2 of the most important aspects of it.

Stop analyzing it so much you damn fools!

[basgitarist]

@ Left Shoe


123
http://home.comcast.net/~mr.write/pancake_bunny.jpg

[Son of Magni]

Almost everything that has to do with music can be described in mathematical terms. Frequencies, harmonics, the way different notes fit together to make chords, different tunings, different temperments, scales, rhythms, timing, tempo, counterpoint, the vibrations of the strings, why a fret is where it is, why an acoustic is that shape and size...

Listen to a Bach organ fugue, listen carefully, and tell me you don't hear math at work.

Music is the perfect combination of math and emotion.

[basgitarist]

@ Murdock
well that's what people do, Analyze things and relate them to things they can explain. Get used to it. It doesn't necessarily mean it will block their creativity. It's just putting things in perspectivie.

[PERFECTXDARK]

haha thanks but he also said i'd need a 80% in math to get into humbers music program...

p.s my bass teacher is also a guitarist lmao

[bassistuvdoom731]

haha thanks but he also said i'd need a 80% in math to get into humbers music program...

p.s my bass teacher is also a guitarist lmao

If you're so worried about it, why dont you reasearch it yourself? Or at least tell us why your not going to research it yourself.:thumb:

I really dont think anyone here is going to know for certain without looking it up. Where the hell is Humber anyway? They accept electric bass majors?

[MuRd0K]

@ Murdock
well that's what people do, Analyze things and relate them to things they can explain. Get used to it. It doesn't necessarily mean it will block their creativity. It's just putting things in perspectivie.

When I first saw that, I swear you typed "Murcock".

I was like "what the hell!?" :lol:

[basgitarist]

hehehe you really are too gay for a man :lol: It would be something to consider doing in the future :lol:

[EADG]

I brought up EADG telling me that he had a 90 in music but a 40 in math? I told him that but he seemed to think that was bull****?? so im very confused
give me your input


98%, 44% actually.

And I do think it's bullshit.

[EADG]

Frequencies, harmonics, different tunings, different temperments, the vibrations of the strings, why a fret is where it is, why an acoustic is that shape and size...
.


Sounds like physics to me.

[Left Shoe]

Sounds like physics to me.
nothing to do with math at all

[PERFECTXDARK]

Ah! finally my point is starting to sink in and im proving him wrong!,but yeah it just scared me and him saying I need a 80% in math to get into music college

[Spazzout22]

Well, there are things that say that people who are good at music are supposedly good at math, and though i've seen that myself, it obviously doesn't really hold true.

As for getting into a music school... they care more about how you can play that how you perform in accedemics (as demonstrated by my awsome spelling ability). Some schools may look at it, but most music schools that i've looked at won't actually really require you to take math classes, unless it's a GDR. As a music student you usually don't have to take math classes.

Don't freek out too bad man.

Also, for dissbelievers. The notes you play on your bass were created using math to devide up the overtone series. Check up on Equal Temperment.

[EADG]

Also, for dissbelievers. The notes you play on your bass were created using math to devide up the overtone series. Check up on Equal Temperment.


Sure the locations of the frets were created using math, but once they were created, did I ever use that math again?

[TheBassman238]

Well im not gunna compare how music is math but the only reason most people do better in music then math is because they find it interesting and relate to it and that enables them to apply themselves a lot easyier. If you ask me.

-TBM

[bassistuvdoom731]

Unless your looking to be a luthier, you probably wont need to be good at math. But like SoM said, math is very involved in music, and for the record, physics involves tons of math, so thats really not changing anything.

[MuRd0K]

hehehe you really are too gay for a man :lol: It would be something to consider doing in the future :lol:

I inmediately thought of Jack from Will&Grace on that episode where he buys that thing you use for BBQ's, that normally says "Kiss the cook", but he thought he said "Kiss the ****" :lol:.

Funny ****.

[Son of Magni]

Sounds like physics to me.
Yes, there's a lot of physics, which of course also involves math. You also edited out a lot of what I said that was more purely math related. A bit unfair don't you think?

[Sade]

People fail to realize EVERYTHING in existence is explainable in mathematical terms.

[PERFECTXDARK]

People fail to realize EVERYTHING in existence is explainable in mathematical terms.
you also said said f*** music? so I dont think you saying that is going to help/change/add to my thoughts.

[Sade]

you also said said f*** music? so I dont think you saying that is going to help/change/add to my thoughts.

...umm, what?

[Son of Magni]

Ok Sade, I'll bite. Explain in mathematical terms the human decision making process.

[bassistuvdoom731]

Ok Sade, I'll bite. Explain in mathematical terms the human decision making process.

Honestly, I doubt anyone on this forum would be able too, but I can bet my soul that it entails ALOT of brainwave frequencies and the like.

[Sade]

Ok Sade, I'll bite. Explain in mathematical terms the human decision making process.

I couldn't even begin to comprehend a mathematical formula that complex. Does that mean it's not explainable in mathematical terms just because I can't explain it to you? No. Mathematics is a language, just as any.

If you really want to dive into the philosophy of it, I will go there. But I can't go there mathematically.

[Son of Magni]

I couldn't even begin to comprehend a mathematical formula that complex. Does that mean it's not explainable in mathematical terms just because I can't explain it to you? No. Mathematics is a language, just as any.

If you really want to dive into the philosophy of it, I will go there. But I can't go there mathematically.
Yeah yeah, I'm just being devil's advocate. I just don't believe that currently we have any science that is capable of explaining "everything".

[Sade]

Yeah yeah, I'm just being devil's advocate. I just don't believe that currently we have any science that is capable of explaining "everything".

We currently have no language that is capable of explaining everything, either.

You attempt to edify our "reason for being" in plain English and I'll give you a cookie coated with the touch of God.

[bassistuvdoom731]

True, but there is mathematical theory behind everything. Its just a matter of how much the worlds mathmericians have tapped into them. Everything can be explained inmath, but the human race just isnt that intelligent yet. :lol:

[Son of Magni]

We currently have no language that is capable of explaining everything, either.

You attempt to edify our "reason for being" in plain English and I'll give you a cookie coated with the touch of God.
I would do that, but I have cookies disabled :)

[Son of Magni]

Actually I believe our "reason for being" is: To Learn

[Sade]

I would do that, but I have cookies disabled :)

It's a shame, because when I said "touch of god" I actually meant a gangbang starring Aurora Snow.

Same thing, really.

[Sade]

Actually I believe our "reason for being" is: To Learn

Abstract ideal.

I enjoy it.

It is being scientifically proved that human beings have an unlimited capacity for knowledge.

[Criss Frantic]

Music = left brain
Maths = right brain

People who say that music and maths go hand in hand are forgetting or disregarding the creative element of music, it's subjectiveness and its ability to allow people to creatively express themselves in an original way. Also its ability to move people and affect emotion. I've never gotten shivers down my neck listening to someone rattle off algebraic formulae. Maths always seemed to me to be cold and impersonal. The way I see things, mathematics is black and white, correct or incorrect, and music is like an LSD trip, colourful, vibrant, exciting and there are no boundaries, no right or wrong.

Having said all that, I can completely understand how being a brilliant mathematician wold help you in musical theory, but without the creative side of it, you're just playing a bunch of notes with no feeling.

[Soulfly666]

Got this of their site. It's that part that explains therequirements for admission. I don't know if I missed it or something, but I don't see anything about math. Seriously man, just go to theor site and check everything out for yourself.

Ontario Secondary School Diploma (OSSD) with six Grade 12U or U/C (M) courses, or six OACs, or equivalent, with at least a 65 per cent overall average

• 75 per cent or above in Grade 12U English ENG4U or OAC English ENG0A1.

• Completion of a performance audition on a major instrument including music theory and ear training placement testing.

[katana_manatee]

Music and maths are very similar on a number of levels, but as for needing 80% in maths for music college, I think I smell shite.

So basically someone who does very well in music but **** in maths wouldn't get in? Not likely. I think the 80% is an
exaggeration.

If it was true it would be rediculous, in the UK I don't think there are any music schools which care about anything extraneous of musical ability.

I think the same would most likely apply at Humber, they might want good average scores for everything but the only class they would specifically take notice of would be music.

[Munky_Jam]

Music = left brain
Maths = right brain

People who say that music and maths go hand in hand are forgetting or disregarding the creative element of music, it's subjectiveness and its ability to allow people to creatively express themselves in an original way. Also its ability to move people and affect emotion. I've never gotten shivers down my neck listening to someone rattle off algebraic formulae. Maths always seemed to me to be cold and impersonal. The way I see things, mathematics is black and white, correct or incorrect, and music is like an LSD trip, colourful, vibrant, exciting and there are no boundaries, no right or wrong.

Having said all that, I can completely understand how being a brilliant mathematician wold help you in musical theory, but without the creative side of it, you're just playing a bunch of notes with no feeling.

tend to agree with most things you say but you're missing something important here.

you can be good at music/theory without being creative and to be involved in anyform of science including maths you also need to be creative to be any good.
All the best scientists i've worked with or known have all been incredibly creative, some even more so than great musicians than i know.

[Munky_Jam]

Music and maths are very similar on a number of levels, but as for needing 80% in maths for music college, I think I smell shite.

So basically someone who does very well in music but **** in maths wouldn't get in? Not likely. I think the 80% is an
exaggeration.

If it was true it would be rediculous, in the UK I don't think there are any music schools which care about anything extraneous of musical ability.

I think the same would most likely apply at Humber, they might want good average scores for everything but the only class they would specifically take notice of would be music.
well you need to make sure drummers can count to 4 and back

[Munky_Jam]

Honestly, I doubt anyone on this forum would be able too, but I can bet my soul that it entails ALOT of brainwave frequencies and the like.
well i did a bit of physiology in uni and alot of it is chemical signalling (which all boils down to maths/physics in the end) and electrical signalling (see chemical signalling)

[thelowsoundofbass]

Music and math are very directly related. All of music and music theory is patterns, and all of math is a big pattern.

Physics is just applied math.

lowsound

[Son of Magni]

Music = left brain
Maths = right brain

People who say that music and maths go hand in hand are forgetting or disregarding the creative element of music, it's subjectiveness and its ability to allow people to creatively express themselves in an original way. Also its ability to move people and affect emotion. I've never gotten shivers down my neck listening to someone rattle off algebraic formulae. Maths always seemed to me to be cold and impersonal. The way I see things, mathematics is black and white, correct or incorrect, and music is like an LSD trip, colourful, vibrant, exciting and there are no boundaries, no right or wrong.

Having said all that, I can completely understand how being a brilliant mathematician wold help you in musical theory, but without the creative side of it, you're just playing a bunch of notes with no feeling.
So you don't believe that music should incorporate things like scales or chord progressions? The left and right brain need to learn to work together. We use mathematics to help create a framework within which we can create. Without that framework we wouldn't have styles like blues, rock, bebop, hiphop, etc. With pure emotive creation, music would just be freeform improv. Our minds need familiar grooves and repetition, no?

[sub-bass]

I can see how math and music might tap into the same part of the brain

[Criss Frantic]

So you don't believe that music should incorporate things like scales or chord progressions? The left and right brain need to learn to work together. We use mathematics to help create a framework within which we can create. Without that framework we wouldn't have styles like blues, rock, bebop, hiphop, etc. With pure emotive creation, music would just be freeform improv. Our minds need familiar grooves and repetition, no?

Yeah of course I totally agree, I wasn't trying to be completely "maths-ist", it's just that I don't beleive that you can create really emotive, powerful music with mathematical musical theory alone, there needs to be some creative inspiration in there, something that isn't tangible but you can feel it, that comes from the composer's soul. Without that the music would just sound like a MIDI track, cold and impersonal.

[Son of Magni]

Yeah of course I totally agree, I wasn't trying to be completely "maths-ist", it's just that I don't beleive that you can create really emotive, powerful music with mathematical musical theory alone, there needs to be some creative inspiration in there, something that isn't tangible but you can feel it, that comes from the composer's soul. Without that the music would just sound like a MIDI track, cold and impersonal.
Sure, ok. Like I said (so long ago it seems) that music is the perfect combination of math and emotion.

[EADG]

Yes, there's a lot of physics, which of course also involves math. You also edited out a lot of what I said that was more purely math related. A bit unfair don't you think?


Things like scales, timing, and tempo still use very basic math, like addition and basic division.

[pipe]

math in music is just the means we use to express ourselves. but math is hightly intrinsecated with music. see equal temperament (sp?) as someone said before. also, physically, we see only basic math in our instruments, but theory and relationships between notes and scales and chords are all based on math. a melody that sounds "right" follows a specific mathematical law that explains why those notes sound good together and others don't. entropy has a great part in all of this.

[zink182]

It has been tested and proven that you use the same parts of your brain for music and maths..

[Raz-The-Bass]

id just say numbers are the "language " we use to play the bass if u know what i mean and obviously maths will come into it if numbers are involved

[JBass]

harmonics are all math...the harmonic theory music is based on math...math has ALOT to do with music...however, you can be horrible at math and be great at music...they are both dependent and independent of eachother in different ways..but yes math and music are much more closely related than people tend to think, and there would be no music without math. (but there probably would be math without music :upset:)

music theories and note relations are beyond the basic math of the # of frets and stuff..it involves very complicated ratios and such...i read alot about it cuz i had to do a project on this once...the first harmonics that were ever heard were when pythagoris (or some other greek guy...i forget) was walking by a blacksmith hitting a metal pole with a hammer and he noticed that each time he hit it a differnt pitch would come out...so he went some and got like 6 or 7 metal poles all of different lengths and measured the frequencies of each when he hit it and then discovered the ratio of like octaves and fifths and stuff...then it gets complicated form there....

[Kragen]

it's been said before loads - but whatever:

Music theory is all explainable in mathematical terms - the frequency of all western notes, the relation between those notes in scales and chords etc...

Having said that, I dont think that knowledge of maths is that helpful when it comes to learning music theory for application to your playing (and I'm in my 3rd year of a degree).

[edgebass5]

I've always used math as a way to understand music. Accept the fact that most things in life can be explained mathematically.

[PaulR]

I've always used math as a way to understand music. Accept the fact that most things in life can be explained mathematically.
Yep. I agree with this. I always work music out mathematically.

[Belfast Bassist]

You can use math to understand music, but you dont need to be good at math to play an instrument and make good music.

For example: I can use my computer. I can use it to post messages on a virtual entity, called the internet. People from all round the world can see it, on a site called musicians forrums. I sure dont know how it works or understand it, but I can still use it:p

[Kragen]

Yep. I agree with this. I always work music out mathematically.

How? I'm good at Maths and I'm struggling through learning a load of scales, chords modes etc... maybe this will help me learn quicker.

[EADG]

I've always used math as a way to understand music. Accept the fact that most things in life can be explained mathematically.


Maybe, but you dont have to know math to be good at music.

[PaulR]

How? I'm good at Maths and I'm struggling through learning a load of scales, chords modes etc... maybe this will help me learn quicker.

Heres an example of what I mean from earlier in the thread.

I think music it's lots of math. Especially music theory. Math can be used to simplify so many things in music. Try to google for studies on the circle of fifths, you'd be amazed!

You could use maths for example finding notes on your neck;
B on the 7th fret on the E string, is 7-5=2nd fret on the A string.
or 7+12-5-5=9th fret on the D string. 9+7=16th fret on the G string. And so on.

(these are just easy examples) You could also calculate how the 5th degree of the 3th chord of a key, relates to the 1st chord of that same key

3+5-1=7

I might be a bit unclear, i´m sorry about that..

Also try this site:

http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/papers/uses-math/music/

And heres an introduction to the circle of fifths:

http://www.radix.net/~dglenn/chords/fifths.html

Basically, do a little studying on scales, and these other things, and see how you can apply maths to it.

[Munky_Jam]

It has been tested and proven that you use the same parts of your brain for music and maths..
Actually quite the opposite. They are completely different domains of intelligence (music/rythmic intelligence and mathematical/logical intelligence), thus physically seperate parts of the brain (nodes and nodules). If they were the same nodules then you would be unable to count and listen/play music at the same time. You see, you are usually unable to do more than one thing at a time unless the nodules are discrete from each other, especially involving higher order thinking (such as counting - yes even to four - and music both are)

[Son of Magni]

A few links just in case anyone's interested in some of the history of the connection between music and math/science:

http://www.musicianswarehouse.com/wmusic.shtml#pianolessons

http://www.andreipricope.com/whymusic.html

http://www.berksmusic.com/whymusic/whymusicpowerofmusic.html

And a little story (a true story and well known):

One day Albert Einstein received a letter requesting a rephrasing of the theory of relativity in simple terms explainable to the letterwriter’s grandchildren. Einstein wrote back his conviction that reason, no matter how simplified, simply will not do. Only something as “straight from the heart” as music would suffice. Dear Sir, I am sorry that I cannot comply with your request. The theory of relativity cannot be reduced to simple terms. We find it to be true, the further that we look. I hate to disappoint you, but, if you would be willing to come by Princeton some afternoon, I will try to play it for you on my violin.

[HaVIC5]

A few links just in case anyone's interested in some of the history of the connection between music and math/science:

http://www.musicianswarehouse.com/wmusic.shtml#pianolessons

http://www.andreipricope.com/whymusic.html

http://www.berksmusic.com/whymusic/whymusicpowerofmusic.html

And a little story (a true story and well known):

One day Albert Einstein received a letter requesting a rephrasing of the theory of relativity in simple terms explainable to the letterwriter’s grandchildren. Einstein wrote back his conviction that reason, no matter how simplified, simply will not do. Only something as “straight from the heart” as music would suffice. Dear Sir, I am sorry that I cannot comply with your request. The theory of relativity cannot be reduced to simple terms. We find it to be true, the further that we look. I hate to disappoint you, but, if you would be willing to come by Princeton some afternoon, I will try to play it for you on my violin.
Good story, it definitely gives perspective.

My feeling is that there is a science and an art to everything we do, and the great works of all fields of study will appeal both, but especially the art. Math and Music are linked by this axiom. You can look at a work by Bach or by Mozart and analyze them to death in terms of musical theory through things like chord progression, modulation, cadences, voice leading, etc, but what makes them so great are their artistic and creative value - the ephemeral mark of genius that gives the work its beauty. In terms of math/physics, Einstein's special Theory of Relativity can be looked at in purely mathematical terms defining the relationship of electromagnetism between two frames of reference. Or, it could be looked as simple, elegant theory that unifies the concepts of space and time and provides foundation for the entirety of modern science. Music and math are like this - they use complex, logical processes to arrive at beautiful and aesthetical pleasing conclusions.

I like to compare great theories and movements in science to great movements in music. For example, Newton and his Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, which brought forebearing to the field of physics, is synonymous with Bach's work. Both represent an intensely mathematical way of looking at the world. Einstein is synonymous with those of the Romantic and Impressionistic period - taking the old school of science and music and breathing radical, fresh new life into it. Quantum Mechanics is synonymous with Serial and Aleotoric music - both completely throw out old notions of science and music and describe systems which rely upon chance and counter-intuitive principles.

[Jeronimofesto]

There is a lot of math and physics behind music and why certain notes sound "pleasant" to your ears, why there are harmonics and how they work, and so on. I don't feel that having that knowledge will make you a better musician, but it doesn't hurt. I've taken every level of calculus and past that and it some respects it can be used in music theory, but you don't need to know that. 80% isn't that big of deal anyways is it?

[peeted]

western theory works the same way that maths works. its basicaly all reletive using synthetic truthes.

[PERFECTXDARK]

There is a lot of math and physics behind music and why certain notes sound "pleasant" to your ears, why there are harmonics and how they work, and so on. I don't feel that having that knowledge will make you a better musician, but it doesn't hurt. I've taken every level of calculus and past that and it some respects it can be used in music theory, but you don't need to know that. 80% isn't that big of deal anyways is it?
Yeah,but see 80% in math,math is my worst subject,but music is my best.And it turns out I dont need a 80 in math but im always going to try to raise the bar :thumb:

[Mailman]

Good story, it definitely gives perspective.

My feeling is that there is a science and an art to everything we do, and the great works of all fields of study will appeal both, but especially the art. Math and Music are linked by this axiom. You can look at a work by Bach or by Mozart and analyze them to death in terms of musical theory through things like chord progression, modulation, cadences, voice leading, etc, but what makes them so great are their artistic and creative value - the ephemeral mark of genius that gives the work its beauty. In terms of math/physics, Einstein's special Theory of Relativity can be looked at in purely mathematical terms defining the relationship of electromagnetism between two frames of reference. Or, it could be looked as simple, elegant theory that unifies the concepts of space and time and provides foundation for the entirety of modern science. Music and math are like this - they use complex, logical processes to arrive at beautiful and aesthetical pleasing conclusions.

I like to compare great theories and movements in science to great movements in music. For example, Newton and his Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, which brought forebearing to the field of physics, is synonymous with Bach's work. Both represent an intensely mathematical way of looking at the world. Einstein is synonymous with those of the Romantic and Impressionistic period - taking the old school of science and music and breathing radical, fresh new life into it. Quantum Mechanics is synonymous with Serial and Aleotoric music - both completely throw out old notions of science and music and describe systems which rely upon chance and counter-intuitive principles.
wanker itt

[Sade]

I've always used math as a way to understand music. Accept the fact that most things in life can be explained mathematically.

Wait a minuet, didn't somebody just say that? :)

[FillInTheBlankHere___]

Math isn't a prerequisite for Humber anyways, they only want ENG4U and 5 other 6 U/M credits. Even then, a lot of my friends have taken Data Management (a 4U math course), and found it quite easy. As long as you stay up to date in the homework, it's completely possible to get an 80 in that course.

[Jaded]

I inmediately thought of Jack from Will&Grace on that episode where he buys that thing you use for BBQ's, that normally says "Kiss the cook", but he thought he said "Kiss the ****" :lol:.

Funny ****.
You watch Will & Grace?!