E major key to G# Phrygian key = Key change or not?

[Kirk's Puppet]

Is that considered a change in key? They contain the same notes so they're basically the same key, but there's a different kind of sound right?

What are some songs with obvious key changes? (Say E minor to G# minor)

[10th man down]

It's not a key change, they sound different because they have different intervals.

Try some Dream Theater or Nightwish. :)

[Music as a Weapon]

and if ever you would like to figure this out on your own


#4 -- -- -- -- -- -- LYDIAN
-- 0/0 -- -- -- -- -- IONIAN
-- -- b7 -- -- -- -- MIXOLYDIAN
-- -- b7 b3 -- -- -- DORIAN
-- -- b7 b3 b6 -- -- AEOLIAN
-- -- b7 b3 b6 b2 -- PHRYGIAN
-- -- b7 b3 b6 b2 b5 LOCRIAN


just follow the table! (ionian obviously being the root/major as you stated)

if it fits, its in the same key

[the_uber_penguin]

What are some songs with obvious key changes? (Say E minor to G# minor)

Iron Maiden has quite a few: listen to Journeyman:

Intro: Am
Verses: F
Bridge: C
Chorus: Dm
Interlude Em

Run To The Hills also has a few key changes, as does Paschendale, which plays each solo in a different key (solo section starts Em, then C#m, then G#m for a verse, then Dm for the last solo, then Em for the rest of the song.)

[MRDuCran]

There's a Children of Bodom songs that is in 6 keys.
Amin
Emin
Gmin
Dmin
Cmin
F#min.

[Trigger_003]

and if ever you would like to figure this out on your own


#4 -- -- -- -- -- -- LYDIAN
-- 0/0 -- -- -- -- -- IONIAN
-- -- b7 -- -- -- -- MIXOLYDIAN
-- -- b7 b3 -- -- -- DORIAN
-- -- b7 b3 b6 -- -- AEOLIAN
-- -- b7 b3 b6 b2 -- PHRYGIAN
-- -- b7 b3 b6 b2 b5 LOCRIAN


just follow the table! (ionian obviously being the root/major as you stated)

if it fits, its in the same key
Jee, wonder who you got that off... ;)

You don't really call it "the key of G# Phrygian", although it is perfectly fine to say it's "in G# Phrygian" - this would be referring to the mode the piece is in.
Modes aren't labeled the same as keys. If you're talking about the keys, you say either major or minor, and when talking about modes, you use ionian and aeolian (along with all the other modes as well), even though they are the exact same thing in reality.

So going from E Ionian to G# Phrygian is known as being a change of mode... Seeing as all the modes, if used correctly, sound different - this accomodates for the question of " but there's a different kind of sound right?". But, as you said, both of these will still have the same key signature.

However, all modes are either major or minor. Ionian, being the major scale, is obviously a major mode - meaning being in the key of Emaj suits it perfectly.
Phrygian, on the other hand, is a minor mode, and hence should probably be put under the category of C# minor as opposed to E major. THEN it is a key change - theory-wise, from the major key to the relative minor key - even though the key signature is still the same regardless.

[Kirk's Puppet]

Thanks guys. I understand modes actually, yeah.

I'm having trouble using key changes in my compositions... What are some good ways to change keys? Or do you just... do it? >_<

[the_uber_penguin]

There are lots of ways. You can just throw a random key change in, I find playing a chromatic run is a great way to announce a key change.

A common method is to have a phrase which finishes on the new key you want to go in: say from A to B: you'll have a phrase which goes A B C# B. Then you repeat that changing key:

(notes)
A B C# B | B C# D# B |

And you're now in B.

If you want to do it with chords, say change from G to C, G has one sharp F#, and C has no sharps, so you'd deliberately alter a chord with the F# in:

(chords)
G |C |G |D | --> normal chord progression, then just before you want to change key:

G | C | G |Dm | --> you can then start playing in C:

C | F | C | G | and it'll sound reasonably natural.

[Trigger_003]

Are you talking in terms of progressions or licks?
Below is a post done by Greg, who's unfortunately seemed to have disappeared, on modulations. You might not get all of this if you've got no idea about creating progressions - tell me if you don't so we can fix that... if you're interested of course :).

Don't forget about Modulations.

If you're playing with a comfortable set of 4 chords, try to use the same chord set with a different key center. Or, you could move to a new key center with entirely fresh material. Modulate!

Common Modulation
I'm sure you have heard common modulations regularly occurring in music. These use what are called closely-related keys, which are:
C, G, D, A, E, B/Cb, F#/Gb, C#/Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F, C

This is also the circle of fifths by the way

ex.1 The key of C Major has two closely-related keys, F and G. The F is a Perfect Fifth Below the C, and the G is a Perfect Fifth Above the C.

ex.2 The key of A Major has two closely-related keys, D, and E. The D is a Perfect Fifth Below the A, and the E is a Perfect Fifth Above the A.

I think you get the point

Here's an example of C Major using a common modulation to a closely-related key:

ex. Dm - G7 - Cmaj7 modulation=> C7 - Fmaj7

What we did was use a standard ii-V7-Imaj7, but then turned the Imaj7 into a V7 which propels the chords into a new key - F Major.

The same can be used of C Major modulating to G:

ex. Dm - G7 - Cmaj7 modulation=> Gmaj7

Since Cmaj7 is the IV chord in G, then all you need to do is fall back to Gmaj7 as your new tonic center - Imaj7.

What about Relative Minor?
If you already know how to modulate using closely-related keys, then it's not too much of a stretch to begin to modulate to a closely-related Minor Key.

ex. Dm - G7 - Cmaj7 modulation=> Em7b5 - Am - Dm

This goes from the ii-V7-Imaj7 in C Major to the key of F Major - but implies the relative minor as the root instead. The Em7b5 is the viiº7 chord in F, which is diminished. It functions in D Minor as the iiº7 chord. Then it proceeds to a regular Am as the v, then to the Dm as the i.

A common modification of this is to use the Altered Dominant for the v chord. This would give you a iiº7-V7alt-i in D Minor. The V7alt can have the following tension tones:

b9, #9, #11, b13

ex. Dm - G7 - Cmaj modulation=> Emb75 - A7(b9) - Dm

Chromatic Modulation
A frequently used chromatic modulation is moving up a wholestep. This employs a Secondary Dominant (A7) to push the new key center.

ex. Dm - G7 - Cmaj7 modulation=> Em - A7 - Dmaj7

Notice it is the same series of three chords bumped up a wholestep to a new key center. The first three chords are a ii-V-I in C Major. The next three are a ii-V-I in D Major. The C in C Major gets chromatically altered to a C#, which is the 3rd in the A7, then it continues by halfstep up to the D.

One of my favorite chromatic modulations is to make the I chord into the ii of the next key:

ex. Dm - G7 - Cmaj7 modulation=> Cm - F7 - Bb

This is done by flatting the 3rd in C Major and making it into a C Minor chord, and it functions as the new ii chord in the key of Bb.

Phrase Modulation
A more dramatic approach is a phrase modulation by halfstep. It must be performed confidently, or it sounds like a mistake. This type is also called a Direct or Abrupt Modulation, since it doesn't use a secondary dominant or any closely-related key to insinuate moving there - it just moves abbruptly.

ex. Dm - G7 - Cmaj7 modulation=> D#m - G#7 - C#maj7

Here in the second three chords, everything is bumped up a halfstep without any preparation. The unpredictability of phrase modulations are what make them so interesting.


Modulations can offer fresh material, but then the listener doesn't get lost - he/she still feels as though you're playing the same song - because the same progression is played, only in a different place.

[the_uber_penguin]

The easiest keys to move into are:

from a MAJOR key:

Equivilent minor
One tone (2nd)
A fourth
A fifth

MINOR KEY:

Equivilent major
Tone Lower (7th)
Fourth
Fifth.

[Alive]

I'd say that the easiest way of changing key is to use a dominant seventh and then go down to that key its the dominant of. Eg.

C - Am - Dm - G play that in the key of C, and then you can go:

C - Am - D7 - G and end up in the key of C.

I'm sure that was in Trea's (Greg's) post, so yeah.

[Kirk's Puppet]

Thanks guys, I'll read 'em up when I have time off of schoolwork.