fear for theory

[Omega Red]

the only people who i've talked to who think theory is binding and an over all waste of time have been thosewho havent learned enough of it to make it truely a great weapon. its a tool just like a great ear, or style flexability. why are you so anti theory

[trumpeter]

I agree.

[Foxfire]

Because it's cool.

It's like being anti-establishment.

Except it's funny because if theory is the establishment, no matter what you do, you end up with it. Good stuff.

[darrell]

Why is this a thread?

[Foxfire]

Why is this a thread?

Because it can be.

[bottlerocket]

I'm too busy to learn theory. :(

I wish I could but I really just flat out can't.

-Gav

[Omega Red]

Why is this a thread?
because you touch your self at night

[Left Shoe]

theory is cool by me. but then again i know a decent amount

[Akira]

Let's see what Sade has to say about this.

[muthafunkabass]

because you touch your self at night
old.:-/

[BenJammin]

I've started learning theory because I feel it's necessary for me to create the music I want to create (I.e. what goes on in my head). I don't think it's a crippling thing to know it, at all, but I think that you can get by without knowing much.

But why not learn something if you have the opportunity?

[bassistuvdoom731]

Theory is nice and extremely useful to know, but I dont like to rely on it. Precalculating every next note in your music doesnt appeal to me, and IMO makes emotionless music.

[bottlerocket]

Let's see what Sade has to say about this.

...why?

-Gav

[trumpeter]

I think that at a certain point not knowing theory will catch up with you and you're going to hit a massive wall and only can get past it by learning theory. So if you learn it in bits that will never happen

[Sade]

That's my opinion on it exactly. It's a tool, just like anything else.

However, it's a tool I don't, personally, frequently use.

[Sade]

I think that at a certain point not knowing theory will catch up with you and you're going to hit a massive wall and only can get past it by learning theory. So if you learn it in bits that will never happen

Now THAT is not true. You're going to hit walls either way, but "learning theory" is not the only way to get around them.

Besides, "knowing" theory? You people act like it's this thing that can, or can't be had in one nice little package. It's much more complicated and proportioned than that.

[trumpeter]

Now THAT is not true. You're going to hit walls either way, but "learning theory" is not the only way to get around them.

Besides, "knowing" theory? You people act like it's this thing that can, or can't be had in one nice little package. It's much more complicated and proportioned than that.


It will aide in getting around some walls.

[Left Shoe]

Besides, "knowing" theory? You people act like it's this thing that can, or can't be had in one nice little package. It's much more complicated and proportioned than that.
thats a good point, theres a ridiculous amount of it to learn

[Sade]

It will aide in getting around some walls.

Theory could very well be the reason for "hitting" a wall. It's all relative and subjective. You can't say what "will" or "will not" help a player in times of creative block.

[Akira]

...why?

-Gav
Sade popped into my mind when I was this, no one else on here seems to consider theory harmful in the same way he does.

[baggagebassman]

I think that theory is important and beneficial, but you don't have to know it to be a good musician. Mick Karn is an example.

[LewsTherin]

I think theres two ways to "know" theory. You can be like Quatre, and know it all and know what to call it, and be able to verbally express your theoretical knowledge, or you can be one of those people that just have it engrained in their head without really realizing it.


Id personally rather just work on knowing what sounds good with what, and all that jazz, than worrying about what to call things and how to name chords and blah blah blah.

[Sade]

I think that theory is important and beneficial, but you don't have to know it to be a good musician. Mick Karn is an example.

There are lots of examples of talented musicians who know alot of theory, and there are lots of examples of talented musicians who know nothing about theory at all.

There's bad musicians on both sides of the spectrum, too. (keeping in mind good and bad are subjective anyways.)

[Left Shoe]

Theory could very well be the reason for "hitting" a wall. It's all relative and subjective. You can't say what "will" or "will not" help a player in times of creative block.
but if you are in a creative block you can use theory. i can compose things when im not feeling motivated because i know a decent chunk of theory.

http://s57.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0ESGVV2HSNEZJ1WH0Y8BDRHZQA

example^

composed when i was in a rut.

[Sade]

but if you are in a creative block you can use theory. i can compose things when im not feeling motivated because i know a decent chunk of theory.

http://s57.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0ESGVV2HSNEZJ1WH0Y8BDRHZQA

example^

composed when i was in a rut.

You can use anything when you're in a rut. Theory is just one option.

My point is it's not "the only" option.

[darrell]

because you touch your self at night

That's why?!?!?!


But.. no. It seems like this thread is actually a reply to another thread. It ends with a question which seems like it's directed towards someone... yet no one's mentioned in your post.

Anyways, thanks for the help with Finale. I'm almost getting the hang of it.

[Left Shoe]

You can use anything when you're in a rut. Theory is just one option.

My point is it's not "the only" option.
when im not in a rut i compose with my bass, but when im in a bass playing rut...i just dont, or i force it with my knowledge of theory

[BassVirtuoso]

TBH I've never heard any of the forum theory guru's make a cool song.

[Sade]

TBH I've never heard any of the forum theory guru's make a cool song.

That certainly seems to be the case.

[Left Shoe]

but if you are in a creative block you can use theory. i can compose things when im not feeling motivated because i know a decent chunk of theory.

http://s57.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0ESGVV2HSNEZJ1WH0Y8BDRHZQA

example^

composed when i was in a rut.
*cough for bassvirt* (at least its a song)

[Wintermute]

No reasonable person is anti-theory - it's a very useful tool, but not the *only* tool. There are people who know theory inside out who couldn't write a tune to save their lives, and others who write melodies you'd hum all day who barely know the major scale.

It helps, sure. Quite a lot, in fact. But it's not the be-all and end-all of playing.

[Munky_Jam]

Most musical theory is logical, almost everyperson I know that's a naysayer regarding theory tends to just reinvent the wheel because it is logical.
That being said it should be seen as a tool, an important tool, but not a crutch!

[Munky_Jam]

To be honest this is the beauty of bass is its one of the few instruments that you can play well enough with almost no theory whatsoever (except knowing some of the fretboard).

[Left Shoe]

To be honest this is the beauty of bass is its one of the few instruments that you can play well enough with almost no theory whatsoever (except knowing some of the fretboard).
you just have to be able to read music to play almost anything, maybe i dont get what you are saying

[LewsTherin]

No reasonable person is anti-theory - it's a very useful tool, but not the *only* tool. There are people who know theory inside out who couldn't write a tune to save their lives, and others who write melodies you'd hum all day who barely know the major scale.

It helps, sure. Quite a lot, in fact. But it's not the be-all and end-all of playing.


Thats kinda what I was saying. The second kind of people you described are the ones who, I think, really do know theory, but not in the traditional manner. They cant really talk about it, because they dont "know" it, but they certainly do have a working knowledge of what sounds good.

[MyFriendOfMisery]

you just have to be able to read music to play almost anything, maybe i dont get what you are saying
I bet people with "perfect pitch" do not have to read music to play stuff. But not to many people have that good of an ear though.

[Duncster]

I bet people with "perfect pitch" do not have to read music to play stuff. But not to many people have that good of an ear though.
Yes they do.

I think you need theory on bass more then most instruments. I guess it depends on the music.

[MyFriendOfMisery]

Sometimes like if they never have heard the song. But some people can get away with not reading music sometimes. I wish i was one of those people:upset: .

[Jody LeCompte]

It doesnt matter how much theory I use. I dont want to sit down with my band and say "ooops...my bassline sounds like ****...but its the right notes" :)

Theory doesnt equal feel or taste.

[Duncster]

It doesnt matter how much theory I use. I dont want to sit down with my band and say "ooops...my bassline sounds like ****...but its the right notes" :)

Theory doesnt equal feel or taste.
If its the right notes, it will sound good. What are you crazy? Theory also teaches rhythmic patterns and how to go from one note to the next properly to fit the music. It teaches you creative ideas like polyrhythms and gives you endless oppurtunities, it doesnt hinder them. Without theory it will be hard to think of different ways to do the same musical thing and make it sound good.
When your alone playing your bass its different. When I'm writing something I may not take into account any theory at all, but when I'm put to a band where I need to write a good sounding line to some music, theory is there.
Theory is good.

[slack]

I never learned three-point perspective, so as an artist I've always felt considerably weaker than those who did know it because my drawings often lacked depth or a sense of space. I got by fine without it, but I can't help feeling that I'd be so much better if I learned the basics. And that's reason is why I was pretty enthusiastic about learning music theory. I don't want to feel limited again. I don't get people who are anti-theory, because it's basically a defense of ignorance. Learn it, constantly think theory when you practice, and forget it when you play.

[Sade]

I never learned three-point perspective, so as an artist I've always felt considerably weaker than those who did know it because my drawings often lacked depth or a sense of space. I got by fine without it, but I can't help feeling that I'd be so much better if I learned the basics. And that's reason is why I was pretty enthusiastic about learning music theory. I don't want to feel limited again. I don't get people who are anti-theory, because it's basically a defense of ignorance. Learn it, constantly think theory when you practice, and forget it when you play.

Edit you post and say "Warning: Metaphor Alert. This material may be too advanced in a literal sense for the weak of mind."

[EADG]

I think it's a shame how people refuse to learn theory; they will never get to see how much their playing will improve as a result.

[PERFECTXDARK]

I think it's a shame how people refuse to learn theory; they will never get to see how much their playing will improve as a result.


Yes,also in highschool you have to learn alot of theory and just learning simple scales has taught me to adapt it into solos by using certain notes also when your playing with another musician you can say play G for instance instead of that last string,or third fret.

[EADG]

Yes,also in highschool you have to learn alot of theory and just learning simple scales has taught me to adapt it into solos by using certain notes also when your playing with another musician you can say play G for instance instead of that last string,or third fret.


This is just one example I can agree with.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I've recently started getting involved in learning theory. Since it's all still fairly new to me, I haven't quite been able to adapt it to my playing, but the fact that I have the knowledge allows me to look at other pieces of music and see how the writer chose to compose it.

[slack]

Edit you post and say "Warning: Metaphor Alert. This material may be too advanced in a literal sense for the weak of mind."Haha, yeah just felt like putting an anecdote out there.

[Sade]

Haha, yeah just felt like putting an anecdote out there.

:lol: It's a good comparison, really.

[Munky_Jam]

you just have to be able to read music to play almost anything, maybe i dont get what you are saying
What i mean is that its one of those few instruments where if you're in a band and you have a friend that you want to play bass for example you can hand him/her a bass and say play this (root notes) and they can play along with you - thats how alot of people start, you don't necessarily need to know chord structures, how to read etc.

[edgebass5]

To me, a good ear will own theory every single time.

Basically my overall concept of theory is this: Anything that can be done with theory, can also be done without it. The difference is that with theory you'll have a name to put behind what you just played. "Oh, that was a diminished, flat 5th change from the phrygian mode of the..........." whereas without it you would simply say, "Hey, listen to this, it sounds cool."

[EADG]

To me, a good ear will own theory every single time.

Basically my overall concept of theory is this: Anything that can be done with theory, can also be done without it. The difference is that with theory you'll have a name to put behind what you just played. "Oh, that was a diminished, flat 5th change from the phrygian mode of the..........." whereas without it you would simply say, "Hey, listen to this, it sounds cool."


Then again, with theory you can learn some concepts that you can try out on your bass, where if you don't know them, you will waste a lot of time just playing random combinations until you find something you like.

[The Maggot]

i agree with edge..

i took guitar lessons for 7 years, and about 6 of those years equaled the amount of time the teacher i had spent on theory. i could give 2 less of a **** what a diminished a minor is, i want to jam on that led zep track pronto, and learn some scales used in the song to remember. to me, music theory makes things to complicated, what ever happened to sitting in on a jam, listening good to whats goin on, and jumpin in when the guitar player hits the next measure, why must we make things so complicated?!?!?!

[Munky_Jam]

To me, a good ear will own theory every single time.

Basically my overall concept of theory is this: Anything that can be done with theory, can also be done without it. The difference is that with theory you'll have a name to put behind what you just played. "Oh, that was a diminished, flat 5th change from the phrygian mode of the..........." whereas without it you would simply say, "Hey, listen to this, it sounds cool."
I agree with you there definitely, but it comes down to what was said before that most people who claim to hate theory and are against it, tend only to reinvent the wheel anyway, but then who's to say that their approach of finding it for themselves is wrong

[sr800bkBassist]

i'm not anti-theory, just anti termology.
i can't tell you if a chord is called CmB7#aug or whatever, but i know what i need to know, and i can write using all sorts of techniques and styles and still stay in key.

i just don't know any fancy words, so people think i'm stupid :rolleyes:.

[Omega Red]

yes a good ear is helpful, but it would take you hearing the song all the way through before you could figure it out. before the song even starts someone could tell you its a Eb rhythm changes head with the VI being a domiant chord and a Major blues B section in AABA. with that said you know ever chord thats going to be played before a note has even been played.

if someone said we're playing in A minor. some of you would think of the Aoleian mode right off the bat. i know my self, and i'm sure havic thinks the same way, when i hear minor i think phrygian, dorian, melodic, harmonic, dorian #2, Dorian #4, Locrian nat 9, blues, pentatonics and their modes, and whole half. i know they all work over a minor chord because i've played them, and i've heard them, and i know what they sound like. and because of theory, and my ear i'm able to pick and choose how i want my phrasing to sound.

you say theory has bogged you down, and complicated things, but i think it makes communication so much easier. can anyone besides havic tell me why you can play a G major triad over an F chord?

[Naveed Afzal]

the only people who i've talked to who think theory is binding and an over all waste of time have been thosewho havent learned enough of it to make it truely a great weapon. its a tool just like a great ear, or style flexability. why are you so anti theory


BOOYA!!!

[SixnStones]

Whatever. Play nice music. There are plenty of people on here who won't be able to tell you why you can play a G major triad over an F chord (what F chord btw) that can make music that i like listening to, which is more than can be said for you quatre. Just my opinion, not saying your bad. Theory's awesome, i'm learning theory, but you seem to know a ****load and still not interest me.

2¢

[Spazzout22]

I think everyone here should have a good look at Satie and have done with it.

[FunkMetalBass]

Face it, theory exists and you use it whether or not you realize it.

Knowing theory just explains why things are done.

[SixnStones]

Face it, theory exists and you use it whether or not you realize it.

Knowing theory just explains why things are done.

way! FMB FTW

[FunkMetalBass]

you say theory has bogged you down, and complicated things, but i think it makes communication so much easier. can anyone besides havic tell me why you can play a G major triad over an F chord?

Something to do with the fact that the G major triad emphasizes the lydian mode the F exists as?

I don't know. It will probably come to me in the morning.

[Soulfly666]

can anyone besides havic tell me why you can play a G major triad over an F chord?

Because it would create a colorful sounding F6 chord?

[Genisis X]

IMHO Theory or anti theory doesn't really matter. If you've got talent and the motivation you'll find the way to develop yourself. For some people theory works, others hate it.

I like a little bit of theory here and there, only to figure out what the hell it is that I am already doing. But that's me!

-X

[mister_tee]

I'm surprised a thread in which one of the first posts was "because you touch yourself at night" turned into a fairly reasonable discussion.

[equinox]

the only people who i've talked to who think theory is binding and an over all waste of time have been thosewho havent learned enough of it to make it truely a great weapon. its a tool just like a great ear, or style flexability. why are you so anti theory

12345,

[bottlerocket]

Who cares? Honestly...if someone wants to learn theory, awesome. Let's help them out. If they don't want to, awesome; they feel like they can express themselves without knowing theory.

I think a lot of people on here that know theory inside and out are a bit cocky and think they are better than those that know no theory. It doesn't make me any less of a musician because I don't know why you play a G major triad over an F chord. Music is about emotion and expression. Theory can help, obviously, but when it all boils down to it, it's emotion and expression through song. You can't call someone any less than anyone else. In fact, most of the songs I hear on here that I like are written by people who know little or no theory. Like BV said, I'm yet to hear someone who knows theory like crazy make a piece that I really like. Sure, some musicians have done it, but the simple things are often the best things.

In conclusion, who cares if someone knows theory or not, quatre? You're always arguing that they're not a "true musician," which I find to be insulting and extremely pompous. That's elitism at its best.

Theory's a great tool to have, but ultimately, that's all it is. It's a tool. You can have all the tools in the world but not be able to build something.

-Gav

[darrell]

Whatever. Play nice music. There are plenty of people on here who won't be able to tell you why you can play a G major triad over an F chord (what F chord btw) that can make music that i like listening to, which is more than can be said for you quatre. Just my opinion, not saying your bad. Theory's awesome, i'm learning theory, but you seem to know a ****load and still not interest me.

2¢

G B D F A C..... wouldn't that be a eleventh chord? They're all stacked thirds...

Edit: I meant to quote quatre.... whoops.

[maco]

There was a guy in the store yesterday that has played guitar for 8 years. He never took a lesson, and he knows no theory. He can shread, and that's about it. He decided he was going to try bass since they couldn't find a bassist for a band. His friend was playing. He was was playing from E or F (I'm not sure, he was at the nut of the 6th string, but I don't know exactly what his root note was what with all the distortion and my lack of ear training) or something like that. The guy that was trying bass was playing down at B. He had no idea why it clashed. I don't think he even knows what notes are where on the fingerboard. He doesn't know any theory and always gets mad when he makes something up on guitar then tries to tell someone what he's playing. He can't even tell them what key or the root note because he doesn't know what note is where or what a major chord is. He tries to go with "the..the 7th fret! You know, that one with the dot?? I'm playing that thing" yeah, even I know more theory than him, and I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you talk about Dorian and whatever. I showed him a major scale and told him to at least learn to do that.

[PaulR]

Hey guys, maybe we should make theory threads illegal.

After all, these lead to arguments as well. :rolleyes:

[Spaceman Spiff]

Funny, a couple of my favorite songs on here were written by those with lots of theory knowledge. :eek:

[Untitled]

Im not anti theory, just i cant use it.

Im acctully inept at using thoery, i read it and it makes no sence to me what so ever. Now when i right something i just do it by my ear, i have never been able to right music down then play it and it sounds amazing.

But theory baffels me, i can tell u where the notes are on the fret board, barly, but i only use that for if a giutar person says "im playing a C" then i know what scale to play around in

[albinoblacksheep]

its a lovely tool. deliberately hating it is as silly and foolish as hating a nut-cracking squirrel, kittens, sunsets or cinnamon buns

[kilian]

I never learned three-point perspective, so as an artist I've always felt considerably weaker than those who did know it because my drawings often lacked depth or a sense of space. I got by fine without it, but I can't help feeling that I'd be so much better if I learned the basics. And that's reason is why I was pretty enthusiastic about learning music theory. I don't want to feel limited again. I don't get people who are anti-theory, because it's basically a defense of ignorance. Learn it, constantly think theory when you practice, and forget it when you play.
He nails it!

I use a bit of theory to get started in a song and then I use my ear to write the lines. Sometimes they suck, but then I hear it when they suck and change them into something good. I won't go like: but it's in the right key/scale/etc, so it fits!

I trust my ear more then theory though, although I could learn some more. It's like a knife at the end of your gun, if you're out of bullets, use the knife.

[Soulfly666]

Learn it, constantly think theory when you practice, and forget it when you play.

That's probably the best advice I've seen in here. :thumb:

I don't know about constantly thinking theory while you practice, but eventually when you learn enough theory, you should be able to apply it without thinking about it. If you're thinking about it, then it's most likely you're not feeling it, and if you're not feeling it, the crowd isn't feeling it. Although theory is all good, emotion plays a pretty big, if not the biggest, role in music. I mean I'd rather see Carlos Santana or Jimi Hendrix hit one long note, that you know is dripping with emotion, than to hear how many notes from scale a person can fit into 2 bars of some chord and sound like a robot. Just my 2 cents.

[irishslappop]

deliberately hating it is as silly and foolish as hating a nut-cracking squirrel, kittens, sunsets or cinnamon buns
interesting.
i love kittens and cinnamon buns.

[darrell]

its a lovely tool. deliberately hating it is as silly and foolish as hating a nut-cracking squirrel, kittens, sunsets or cinnamon buns

Beautifully put.

Learn it, constantly think theory when you practice, and forget it when you play.

That's what I was taught. Learn your theory up and down, but when it comes time to play, just play. Don't stand there thinking "Okay, now I'm going to this chord so I need this scale..." You should have done all of that through practice. It's time to play... so just play.

[Sade]

"Theory" is such crap, anyways. Everybody knows "theory," just maybe not recognized contemporary western notation.

[irishslappop]

yeah! if theory really worked wouldn't it be "music LAW" :amaze:

<_<
>_>
<_<


XD

[LewsTherin]

To me, a good ear will own theory every single time.

Basically my overall concept of theory is this: Anything that can be done with theory, can also be done without it. The difference is that with theory you'll have a name to put behind what you just played. "Oh, that was a diminished, flat 5th change from the phrygian mode of the..........." whereas without it you would simply say, "Hey, listen to this, it sounds cool."


/is angry b/c edge just said the same thing he's been trying to this whole time, but people didnt seem to notice/understand when he said it

[LewsTherin]

I trust my ear more then theory though, although I could learn some more. It's like a knife at the end of your gun, if you're out of bullets, use the knife.

Bayonet.


Silly Europeans.

[LewsTherin]

you say theory has bogged you down, and complicated things, but i think it makes communication so much easier. can anyone besides havic tell me why you can play a G major triad over an F chord?

Because you have 10 fingers, and thats only 6 notes?


Or is it because its music and you can do whatever the **** you want?

[SixnStones]

Because you have 10 fingers, and thats only 6 notes?


Or is it because its music and you can do whatever the **** you want?

LewsTherin FTW!

[PaulR]

Bayonet.


Silly Europeans.
Yeah, we're so silly, inventing it and all :p

[Duncster]

can anyone besides havic tell me why you can play a G major triad over an F chord?
Please enlighten me? I'm very curious. Wouldn't the B natural sound like ****? I must know!
Great post by the way. You definitely come of as a cocky prick at first but I see your just stating the facts and proving your point.

[Munky_Jam]

i'm not anti-theory, just anti termology.
i can't tell you if a chord is called CmB7#aug or whatever, but i know what i need to know, and i can write using all sorts of techniques and styles and still stay in key.

i just don't know any fancy words, so people think i'm stupid :rolleyes:.
Look its not about being stupid but music is a language and when your jamming or playing with people you need to be able to communicate with them competently if not fluently.