Scale question

[vashts80]

Whether or not this goes into beginner questions, I don't know. I think this is a valid question, though..

I have a 34 inch scale, 5 string bass. My B is loose, and when I tune it down to A, it's even looser. If I were to take the bridge off and move it an inch back, would that theoretically make it a 35 inch scale? Is this an even plausable idea?

[Kibuddy]

Why not try some different strings first? Get a different guage and see if that does anything.

[Akira]

You tune down to A? I have never heard of that before.

[vashts80]

I had a .132 flatwound on there and it didn't work, now I'm using a .130 roundwound and it's tighter than the flatwound, but it's still pretty loose. It's not that big of a deal, but when I have the highest action possible (on a fretless no less) for this string and it still clacks against the fingerboard, it's slightly irritating.

Ironically, every other string is fine when tuning down 1.5-2 steps on a low action. I'm using a Rotosound RS665LD set right now..when these strings wear out or break I'll look at maybe D'Addarios or DRs.

I dunno how many bands tune to A, but I play along with some Nile when I have some free time and they play in A (AEADF#B for the guitars)

[zink182]

You tune down to A? I have never heard of that before.

Ryan Martinie is tuned down to G..

[Paul]

Moving your bridge back to make the scale length would leave you with the problem of having the frets setup for a 34" scale and the scale length at 35", you'd never be able to intonate the bass.

[Omega Red]

you can buy pc board spacers from a local computer repair store. thread your string in them before you string you bass

[bottlerocket]

Another thing: If you move your bridge, you'll have an outline of your bridge on your bass, as well as screw holes and stuff...it could look pretty icky but I'm just guessing here. :p

Either way, it doesn't seem like too bright of an idea but you can try it, I guess.

-Gav

[vashts80]

you can buy pc board spacers from a local computer repair store. thread your string in them before you string you bass

http://www.allelectronics.com/images/gold/large/SP-180.jpg

That kind? I never thought of that idea, I'll give it a try when I'm through being lazy :x

Moving your bridge back to make the scale length would leave you with the problem of having the frets setup for a 34" scale and the scale length at 35", you'd never be able to intonate the bass.

I never thought of that..that still would happen even though it's a fretless, right?

[Akira]

I never thought of that..that still would happen even though it's a fretless, right?
I think it might work since it is a fretless, you would just have to re-learn where the "frets" are.

[EADG]

You could move your bridge if it was a fretless, Jaco did it. Your fretlines would probably be useless though.

[vashts80]

If it's that kind of spacer, would I put it on the string over the saddle, on the string over the nut, or on the string on the outside/ball-end of the bridge? Yes, simple things are hard for me, for some reason.

[edgebass5]

The theory that PC board spacers will increase tension is garbage. Tension is measured between the two "end" points of the string. Those points being the nut slot, and the bridge saddle. What goes on beyond those two points is irrelevant in how you calculate tension.

Threadstarter, as has been said already in this thread, moving your bridge an inch would make a bass that is impossible to intonate. The reason being that the distance from the nut to the 12th fret would be 17", while the distance from the 12th fret to the bridge would be 18"....... in other words... no good.

The only ways to truly affect tension are to increase scale length, or increase string gauge. Since increasing your scale length isn't really an option just go and get yourself a higher gauge B string.

[edgebass5]

Just found the old thread I made about this.... good times..... http://musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352771

[vashts80]

Threadstarter, as has been said already in this thread, moving your bridge an inch would make a bass that is impossible to intonate. The reason being that the distance from the nut to the 12th fret would be 17", while the distance from the 12th fret to the bridge would be 18"....... in other words... no good.
Theoretically there are no frets on a fretless, correct? Even if the fretlines would be useless, I can retrain myself if I were to move the bridge back an inch, which I won't be attempting for awhile anyway (not until I get a Carvin 6 fretless or something, which will take my awhile)

[basgitarist]

The theory that PC board spacers will increase tension is garbage. Tension is measured between the two "end" points of the string.

the Pc board spacer would be the new end, now wouldn't it?

[kilian]

No it will still be the nut and the string saddle. BUT you can try it out for a few bucks and it might scientifically or psychologically increase the tension. Both are good.

EDIT: spelling errors.

[edgebass5]

the Pc board spacer would be the new end, now wouldn't it?

Definitely not. Think of it this way: What stops the vibration of the string on the headstock on end of the bass, the nut or the tuning machines? The answer of course if the nut, so the PC spacer would be extending a non-speaking (i.e. vibrating) length of the string. String tension would be inreased, but it would create a pitch that was sharp. You would then have to down tune (i.e. reduce tension) in order to correct for pitch.

Its as simple as this: Given a specific string gauge, scale length and desired tuning, tension will be predetermined. End of story.

[vashts80]

It seems to me like putting a nut (for a bolt) on the ball-end of the string on the back of the bridge increased the tension a tiny bit (in drop A tuning), enough to make a difference, but I could be imagining things.

[edgebass5]

It seems to me like putting a nut (for a bolt) on the ball-end of the string on the back of the bridge increased the tension a tiny bit (in drop A tuning), enough to make a difference, but I could be imagining things.

Its as simple as this: Given a specific string gauge, scale length and desired tuning, tension will be predetermined. End of story.

:thumb:

[Spaceman Spiff]

:thumb:
If you didn't hear, Memento reunited with a new drummer.

:thumb:





On topic... my B doesn't rattle on my Ibanez, 34" scale. It's a bit loose, but it doesn't rattle.

[FunkMetalBass]

Has anybody ever thought that maybe the B-string feels loose because it doesn't vibrate through the whole body and instead just above the fretboard?

That would mean that string-thru basses, while still having the same tension, would feel tighter because the sustain and vibrations took place on the whole instead of one concentrated area.

[edgebass5]

That would mean that string-thru basses, while still having the same tension, would feel tighter because the sustain and vibrations took place on the whole instead of one concentrated area.

Once again, what's beyond the bridge saddles is not part of the speaking length of the string. If a string were to vibrate beyond the bridge saddle it would mean that you didn't have enough pressure over the saddle, and the result would be rattle. String it through the body if you'd like, but realize that the only advantage to doing this is the increased "break" angle as the string crosses the saddle (i.e. more downward pressure, less chance for a rattling bridge saddle).

[WHoRRID]

IF A STRING IS LOOSE IN ITS DESIRED TUNING U NEED A THICKER STRING.


simple as that there is no other easy fix for this.

I'd suggest get a .135 B.

[FunkMetalBass]

Once again, what's beyond the bridge saddles is not part of the speaking length of the string. If a string were to vibrate beyond the bridge saddle it would mean that you didn't have enough pressure over the saddle, and the result would be rattle. String it through the body if you'd like, but realize that the only advantage to doing this is the increased "break" angle as the string crosses the saddle (i.e. more downward pressure, less chance for a rattling bridge saddle).

I never said anything about increasing the tension of the speaking length. In fact, my argument is that, no matter how minutely, the string HAS to vibrate beyond the speaking length. This slight vibration increases the overall vibration in the instrument, causing a more harmonious vibration between all of the parts, and thus making the strings feel tighter.

I really haven't a way to prove it though.

[Phalanx]

you can buy pc board spacers from a local computer repair store. thread your string in them before you string you bass

im pretty sure there was a huge debate on Talkbass about that idea and in the end, they proved it to be false :confused:

[Biz]

Just take off the low B, and put the high C on it instead. I hate the Low B on a fretless, I don't think it really just sounds the same.
-Biz

[vashts80]

Thanks for the advice, but I don't have a fretted 5er and I use a low B more than I'd use the high C at this point. I'm going to eventually get a 6 string.

[Son of Magni]

If you really want to waste your time with the string spacer concept there's already a nice long thread on talkbass for your reading pleasure:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206163

[vashts80]

Reviving this thread....

If I get a 6-string bass that is 34" scale but neck-thru, will a .130 B string suffice, or will I specifically need to pay more for the 35 1/4" scale bass?

I'm planning on getting a Carvin built at the end of this summer and I'm trying to plan exactly what I'll need so I know how much money I'll need, as I don't have a job right now.

I know that this question isn't as answerable as "how do you raise your action?" or "how do you play with a pick?" etc, but I can't actually play the bass until it's built.

[NavyBass]

The theory that PC board spacers will increase tension is garbage. Tension is measured between the two "end" points of the string. Those points being the nut slot, and the bridge saddle. What goes on beyond those two points is irrelevant in how you calculate tension.




Sorry man, but you are completely way off base with that statement. The actual end points are from the anchoring points, those being the tuning machine and the place where the ball end of the string anchors.

Please don't argue using physics calculations, because this is real world. As a matter of fact, you, yourself agreed with me when I made the statement that stringing a Fender through the body as opposed to at the end of the bridge changed the feel of the strings.

According to your statement, there should be absolutely no tension after the nut and the bridge saddles. Bullsh1t, there IS tension at those points also and, guess what, that DOES figure in to the full calculation of string tension.

Also, the vibration doesn't stop completely at the nut or saddle. There is minute vibration going on after those points also.

Please edge, don't take this the wrong way, but you are wrong with that statement and myself and alot of other companies have proved it.

[edgebass5]

myself and alot of other companies have proved it.

No you haven't, nor has any other company for that matter. Show me proof. Show me factual, undisputable evidence. Not opinion, fact. Prove me wrong, and I'll stop arguing my side of the argument. No one has ever proven me wrong on that, they've (and you are included in the term 'they' JP) always offered nothing but conjecture, and evidence by proxy. Show me proof and I'll back down.

In the real world, which is where I play bass and test gear, Things like adding a second anchor point (i.e. pc board spacers, string thru bridges, etc.) doesn't make a difference to my ears, my fingers or my picks.

Also, to my knowledge, the only time I've agreed with you regarding feel of a string-thru body was in reference to the fact that the increased break angle over the saddles could potentially remove a buzzing at the bridge saddles due to the increase in downward pressure. If you can cite me where I stated something specifically regarding the feel of the strings than by all means do so, but until then, please don't put words in my mouth.

EDIT: Also, regarding the fact that the string vibrates beyond the nut or bridge saddles. Try this (I just did as well to confirm myself): Get a set of plyers.. or hell, your fingers will work too. Pluck the open E string of your bass. Now, while its vibrating, clamp down beyond the nut, which would effectively cancel any of the theorized vibrations that occur beyond the nut. Do you notice a difference in tone, sustain or response? If you say anything but no I would accuse you of lying.

[FunkMetalBass]

EDIT: Also, regarding the fact that the string vibrates beyond the nut or bridge saddles. Try this (I just did as well to confirm myself): Get a set of plyers.. or hell, your fingers will work too. Pluck the open E string of your bass. Now, while its vibrating, clamp down beyond the nut, which would effectively cancel any of the theorized vibrations that occur beyond the nut. Do you notice a difference in tone, sustain or response? If you say anything but no I would accuse you of lying.

Wouldn't the string vibrating outside the speaking length only really be caused by the overall vibrations traveling through the bass as a whole?

[NavyBass]

No you haven't, nor has any other company for that matter. Show me proof. Show me factual, undisputable evidence. Not opinion, fact. Prove me wrong, and I'll stop arguing my side of the argument. No one has ever proven me wrong on that, they've (and you are included in the term 'they' JP) always offered nothing but conjecture, and evidence by proxy. Show me proof and I'll back down.

In the real world, which is where I play bass and test gear, Things like adding a second anchor point (i.e. pc board spacers, string thru bridges, etc.) doesn't make a difference to my ears, my fingers or my picks.

Also, to my knowledge, the only time I've agreed with you regarding feel of a string-thru body was in reference to the fact that the increased break angle over the saddles could potentially remove a buzzing at the bridge saddles due to the increase in downward pressure. If you can cite me where I stated something specifically regarding the feel of the strings than by all means do so, but until then, please don't put words in my mouth.

EDIT: Also, regarding the fact that the string vibrates beyond the nut or bridge saddles. Try this (I just did as well to confirm myself): Get a set of plyers.. or hell, your fingers will work too. Pluck the open E string of your bass. Now, while its vibrating, clamp down beyond the nut, which would effectively cancel any of the theorized vibrations that occur beyond the nut. Do you notice a difference in tone, sustain or response? If you say anything but no I would accuse you of lying.

I'm done with you and your big ego.

Your edit is also a long winded point about nothing at all. I never said that. All I said was that there was vibration back there. Did I say it made a difference? No. What I did say was that the TENSION over there does.

Tell you what, You're right and everyone else is trying to screw people out of an extra dollar.:rolleyes:

I just have to keep reminding myself that you know everything and everyone else knows absolutely nothing, unless they agree with you.:thumb:

[FunkMetalBass]

I'm done with you and your big ego.

Your edit is also a long winded point about nothing at all. I never said that. All I said was that there was vibration back there. Did I say it made a difference? No. What I did say was that the TENSION over there does.

Tell you what, You're right and everyone else is trying to screw people out of an extra dollar.:rolleyes:

I just have to keep reminding myself that you know everything and everyone else knows absolutely nothing, unless they agree with you.:thumb:

JP, that was a little harsh. Say you're sorry.

Besides, you're both wrong, and I'm right. (See posts 22 and 25.)

It makes sense, doesn't it? Plus, it stays perfectly confined within the principles and laws that govern both of your arguments.

[edgebass5]

Well.... thanks for that. I've always been respectful, humble, and truthful on these boards, and typically so have you. I'm sorry to say it, but your rebuttal was quite juvenile, and is really making me laugh. If you honestly think that's how I come across... well.... I don't think you've looked hard enough.

You said you've proven me wrong on this point. I said you hadn't, and asked you to do so. You could not, so you offer conjecture (which I noted in my previous post) as a scapegoat to get out of proving your point to me. I would love to be enlightened as to how I am wrong on this point, but no one has ever been able to do it. So based on my own experiences and the fact that no one can prove me wrong, I have to assume that I'm correct. Logically it makes sense.

[NavyBass]

Well.... thanks for that. I've always been respectful, humble, and truthful on these boards, and typically so have you. I'm sorry to say it, but your rebuttal was quite juvenile, and is really making me laugh. If you honestly think that's how I come across... well.... I don't think you've looked hard enough.

You said you've proven me wrong on this point. I said you hadn't, and asked you to do so. You could not, so you offer conjecture (which I noted in my previous post) as a scapegoat to get out of proving your point to me. I would love to be enlightened as to how I am wrong on this point, but no one has ever been able to do it. So based on my own experiences and the fact that no one can prove me wrong, I have to assume that I'm correct. Logically it makes sense.


Sorry about that last thing, but if you would have noticed the thumb there, that was my way of saying don't take it so seriously. :lol:

The one thing I do have to say is to really think about your last statement. Logically, you really proved nothing either because, another person can come along and say that they did feel something and no one was able to prove to them otherwise.......................you see how it works.

The only real way to prove it is to atach a tensionometer to the strings and let that be the judge.

On certain tonal issues, I have actually hooked an O-scope to the output of a bass and noticed differences in the overtones with different modifications, keeping all other factors constant. Some people can hear it, some people can't. There's no denying that they weren't there.

One of the experiments was to hook my jazz bass up to the Huntron scope(on my last ship) with the original bridge. I then changed the bridge to a badass II and hooked it up again (using the same strings and everything else). How did I notice a difference? Well, the Huntron has a memory built in it where you can store waveforms and compare them side by side and even overlay them in different colors. There was a difference in the waveforms, playing the same note. It was a big difference also. Again, some might hear it and others might not.

[Tryxx]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4237751840526284618&q=double+slit

Watch that, maybe it's a physical anomaly based on the observer!

[FunkMetalBass]

Tryxx, that was by far the coolest thing I've ever seen, plus or minus the somewhat queer older computer-animated guy.

[EADG]

I'm done with you and your big ego.

Your edit is also a long winded point about nothing at all. I never said that. All I said was that there was vibration back there. Did I say it made a difference? No. What I did say was that the TENSION over there does.

Tell you what, You're right and everyone else is trying to screw people out of an extra dollar.:rolleyes:

I just have to keep reminding myself that you know everything and everyone else knows absolutely nothing, unless they agree with you.:thumb:


You ****in stick it to the man.

[NavyBass]

You ****in stick it to the man.


It wasn't meant to be serious, hence the smileys.

[muthafunkabass]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4237751840526284618&q=double+slit

Watch that, maybe it's a physical anomaly based on the observer!
That was a cool-*** video.

[nopicks4me]

i leared more in that video than i did in school all this year

[FunkMetalBass]

Same here. I'm still trying to figure out the relation between the experiment not working and an observer present.

[EADG]

It wasn't meant to be serious, hence the smileys.


Yes but you made good points nevertheless.

[MyFriendOfMisery]

Try this, put your finger behind the nut on a string and play an open note. After it rings for a little while press down with your finger. The note becomes sharp. So making a string have more tension while keeping the scale and gauge of the string the same makes it become sharp, so you would have to releive the extra pressure by down tuning or lifting your finger off of the string. This is what edge is saying, but who knows physics is wierd.

[vashts80]

K so, thanks for answering my question guys. Let me rephrase:

If I were to get a fretless bass, with a 34" scale, but neck-thru and string-thru-body bridge, would a .130 B string be tight enough that I can use a normal action on it? Or do I have to get the 35 1/4" scale bass for a .130 to be tight? I'm thinking of ordering a Carvin at the end of this summer, but I don't know whether I should be getting the 35 1/4" or if the 34" will work (I think the 35 1/4" is $100 more or so than the 34", and when you're only making $6.50 an hour, that $100 means a lot.)

I know that this question is tough to answer since it's in theoretics, but I can't exactly test a bass when it's custom made.

[moghes69]

the neckthrough and string through parts only change overtones of the notes. they don't do anything to the tension so you'd need a 35 1/4 inch scale to increase the tension. but people do think otherwise and possibly are right, so i dunno

[Tryxx]

the neckthrough and string through parts only change overtones of the notes. they don't do anything to the tension so you'd need a 35 1/4 inch scale to increase the tension. but people do think otherwise and possibly are right, so i dunno

What are you talking about 35.25" scale to increase tension? As long as the speaking length of the string is longer, the tension should be increased. But I'd like to know why you chose that number.

[moghes69]

read the post above mine... he had either 34" or 35 1/4"... basically anything over 34 would increase tension...

[Tryxx]

read the post above mine... he had either 34" or 35 1/4"... basically anything over 34 would increase tension...

My bad. :lol: Excuse the ignorant reading.

[vashts80]

So you're saying spend the extra $50-60 and get the 35.25" scaled bass? I'll keep that in mind when I eventually order this son of a bitch. :)

Edit: Why is it that many professional companies make 5-string basses with a 34" scale?

[muthafunkabass #2]

Some don't mind the flopiness of the string since they still get the same comfortability lengthwise as they would a 4-string.

[darrell]

Some don't mind the flopiness of the string since they still get the same comfortability lengthwise as they would a 4-string.

Yeah.... if I were to ever get a 5-string (which I won't), it'd be tuned tenor and have a 34" scale length. I don't care for 35" much at all.

[wicked_child]

Whether or not this goes into beginner questions, I don't know. I think this is a valid question, though..

I have a 34 inch scale, 5 string bass. My B is loose, and when I tune it down to A, it's even looser. If I were to take the bridge off and move it an inch back, would that theoretically make it a 35 inch scale? Is this an even plausable idea?


tried that to an old bass, yeah, in order to extend range, you should also extend the intervals of your frets. you'll never get a proper intonation on that bass if you have a 35" scale length with a 34" scale fretboard