Sami Yusuf : Songs and Lyrics !

[AbdulRahman]

This page is dedicated to the British singer Sami Yusuf and all his fans ! :)

Sami's Biography:

Sami Yusuf was born in the month of July 1980. He was born into a musical family and thus music played an integral part in his life. Sami’s initial training came from his father, who is an internationally renowned composer, poet, and a multitalented musician.
Sami grew up in London and learnt to play several instruments at a very young age and gradually began to show a keen interest in singing and composing. He studied music at several institutions and with renowned composers and musicians including composers from the Royal Academy of Music in London, one of the world most prestigious music institutions.
Sami has been composing from a very young age and his beautiful voice is supplemented by his extensive knowledge of notes and harmonies. He has also a good understanding of music theory.

Indeed, it is rare to find a person who has all these talents! :thumb:

[AbdulRahman]

Muhammad (Peace be upon him)
Dedicated to the innocent children of Beslan in Russia

Every day I see the same headlines
Crimes committed in the name of the divine
People committing atrocities in his name
They murder and kidnap with no shame
But did he teach hatred, violence, or bloodshed? No... Oh No

He taught us about human brotherhood
And against prejudice he firmly stood
He loved children, their hands he’d hold
And taught his followers to respect the old
So would he allow the murder of an innocent child? Oh No...

Muhammad the light of my eyes
About you they spread many lies
If only they came to realise
Bloodshed you despise

Download from this link (http://song4.6arab.com/sami-youssf_mu7ammad.rm)

This song is about true and real islam. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) says : "He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet". (Bukhari, Muslim) , "Beware on the Day of Judgment; I shall myself be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi).

[AbdulRahman]

Make A Prayer

O people
In a hut made of tin and clay
A small boy dreams away
Of clean water and a meal a day
And not to fear mines as he plays each day


O people
Somewhere dark and out of the way
Aids has found yet another prey
To save his life he just couldn’t pay
Tell me what we’re going to do
For our brothers in Durban
For our sisters in Darfur
Show me what we’re going to do
Are we just going to sit there?
Nice and cosy on our armchairs
Will we not even make a prayer?


You might ask yourself
Why should I help these people?
They’ll tell you why
We’re not so different from you
We have dreams just like you
But they were buried with the
bodies of our loved ones

O people
Are we deaf, dumb, and blind?
What is going through our minds?
Don’t we care for the rest of mankind?


O people
We claim to love peace and justice
Why do we preach what we don’t practice?
Let’s help them out of this darkness


Tell me what we’re going to do
For our brothers in Ethiopia
For our sisters in Rwanda
Show me what we’re going to do
Are we just going to sit there?
Nice and cosy on our armchairs
Will we not even make a prayer?

lyrics: Sami Yusuf & Bara Kherigi
composition: Sami Yusuf

Download from this link (http://song4.6arab.com/sami-youssf_make-a-prayer.rm)

[AbdulRahman]

Al-Mu'allim (The Teacher)

We once had a Teacher
The Teacher of teachers,
He changed the world for the better
And made us better creatures,
Oh Allah we’ve shamed ourselves
We’ve strayed from Al-Mu'allim,
Surely we’ve wronged ourselves
What will we say in front him?
Oh Mu'allim...

Chorus
He was Muhammad salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace be upon him),
Muhammad, mercy upon Mankind,
He was Muhammad salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace be upon him),
Muhammad, mercy upon Mankind,
Teacher of all Mankind.
Abal Qasim [one of the names of the Prophet]
Ya Habibi ya Muhammad
(My beloved O Muhammad)
Ya Shafi'i ya Muhammad
(My intercessor O Muhammad)
Khayru khalqillahi Muhammad
(The best of Allah’s creation is Muhammad)
Ya Mustafa ya Imamal Mursalina
(O Chosen One, O Imam of the Messengers)
Ya Mustafa ya Shafi'al 'Alamina
(O Chosen One, O intercessor of the worlds)

He prayed while others slept
While others ate he’d fast,
While they would laugh he wept
Until he breathed his last,
His only wish was for us to be
Among the ones who prosper,
Ya Mu'allim peace be upon you,
Truly you are our Teacher,
Oh Mu'allim..

Chorus
Ya Habibi ya Muhammad
(My beloved O Muhammad)
Ya Shafi'i ya Muhammad
(My intercessor O Muhammad)
Ya Rasuli ya Muhammad
(O My Messenger O Muhammad)
Ya Bashiri ya Muhammad
(O bearer of good news O Muhammad)
Ya Nadhiri ya Muhammad
(O warner O Muhammad)
'Ishqu Qalbi ya Muhammad
(The love of my heart O Muhammad)
Nuru 'Ayni ya Muhammad
(Light of my eye O Muhammad)

He taught us to be just and kind
And to feed the poor and hungry,
Help the wayfarer and the orphan child
And to not be cruel and miserly,
His speech was soft and gentle,
Like a mother stroking her child,
His mercy and compassion,
Were most radiant when he smiled

Chorus
Abal Qasim [one of the names of the Prophet]
Ya Habibi ya Muhammad
(My beloved O Muhammad)
Ya Shafi'i ya Muhammad
(My intercessor O Muhammad)
Khayru khalqillahi Muhammad
(The best of Allah’s creation is Muhammad)
Ya Mustafa Ya Imamal Mursalina
(O Chosen One O Imam of the Messengers)
Ya Mustafa ya Shafi'al 'Alamina
(O Chosen One O intercessor of the worlds)

Download from this link (http://song4.6arab.com/sami-youssef_ya-mo3allem.rm)

[AbdulRahman]

Mother

Blessed is your face
Blessed is your name
My beloved
Blessed is your smile
Which makes my soul want to fly
My beloved
All the nights
And all the times
That you cared for me
But I never realised it
And now it’s too late
Forgive me

Now I’m alone filled with so much shame
For all the years I caused you pain
If only I could sleep in your arms again
Mother I’m lost without you

You were the sun that brightened my day
Now who’s going to wipe my tears away
If only I knew what I know today
Mother I’m lost without you

Mother... Mother... O my mother
How I long to see O mother
“Your mother, Your mother, Your mother”
Is the saying of your Prophet
In my heart, in my dreams
You are always with me mother

You went and left me
O light of my eyes
O comfort of my nights
You went and left me
Who, other than you, will embrace me?
Who, other than you, will cover me?
Who, other than you, will guard over me?
Your pardon mother, forgive me

lyrics: Sami Yusuf & Bara Kherigi
composition: Sami Yusuf

Download from this link (http://song4.6arab.com/sami-youssf_mother.rm)

[AbdulRahman]

Free


What goes through your mind?
As you sit there looking at me
Well I can tell from your looks
That you think I’m so oppressed
But I don’t need for you to liberate me


My head is not bare
And you can’t see my covered hair
So you sit there and you stare
And you judge me with your glare
You’re sure I’m in despair
But are you not aware
Under this scarf that I wear
I have feelings, and I do care

So don’t you see?
That I’m truly free
This piece of scarf on me
I wear so proudly
To preserve my dignity...

My modesty
My integrity
So don’t judge me
Open your eyes and see...
“Why can’t you just accept me?” she says
“Why can’t I just be me?” she says
Time and time again
You speak of democracy
Yet you rob me of my liberty
And all I want is equality
Why can’t you just let me be free?

For you I sing this song
My sister, may you always be strong
From you I’ve learnt so much
How you suffer so much
Yet you forgive those who laugh at you
You walk with no fear
Through the insults you hear
Your wish so sincere
That they’d understand you
But before you walk away
This time you turn and say:

But don’t you see?
That I’m truly free
This piece of scarf on me
I wear so proudly
To preserve my dignity
My modesty
My integrity
So let me be
She says with a smile
I’m the one who’s free

lyrics: Sami Yusuf & Bara Kherigi
composition: Sami Yusuf

Download from this link (http://song4.6arab.com/sami-youssf_free.rm)

[AbdulRahman]

http://www.samiyusuf.com

[antiant]

thanks for sharing i will be checking him out :thumb:

[AbdulRahman]

Thanks Antiant, I'm sure you will be soon from his fans :thumb:

[The End]

abdul come back to your thread in the pit, people are actually responding now

[Surgicalgod]

He can't sing...

[AbdulRahman]

You all said this only because he sing for islam, peace, morals and values..

Stop prejudice and subjection!!..

[antiant]

i couldn't hear any samples it kept saying error

[Junooni]

Salam.
Also check out Native Deen, bro.

[antiant]

abdul do you listen to arabic pop music?

[Surgicalgod]

You all said this only because he sing for islam, peace, morals and values..

Stop prejudice and subjection!!..

No, I said it because he can't sing...

[antiant]

People like amr diab, nawal al zoghbi, najwa karam, elissa, 4 Cats, wael kfourey, kazam el zaher, mustafa, hakeem, raghib t, pascale, yuri markadi etc

[AbdulRahman]

Antiant , where r u from ? :)

I really don't like anyone of those much, but I prefer Mustafa Mahmoud and Eman el Bahr. :wave:

[antiant]

...

[antiant]

no i've never heard of them, but i will check them out too, what about people of a more "traditonal" sound? do you listen to old stuff too?

[AbdulRahman]

No... I don't listen to old stuff unfortunately :( ..

[antiant]

no...hey you got IM or something?

[AbdulRahman]

What about Sami also ???

had you heard him??

wait 4 comments :thumb:

[antiant]

...

[antiant]

...

[AbdulRahman]

Me also .. Done :thumb:

[AbdulRahman]

Read my new topic about Wharnsby :thumb:

http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11608724

[sketchyjoe]

So don’t you see?
That I’m truly free
This piece of scarf on me
I wear so proudly
To preserve my dignity...
So this is a guy singing about from a women's perspective about how free she is? That's like a white man singing in the 1950s from a black man's perspective about how great segregation is.

[AbdulRahman]

So this is a guy singing about from a women's perspective about how free she is? That's like a white man singing in the 1950s from a black man's perspective about how great slavery is.

Well, In the case of 1950, it is such a mocking song of black man from a racist white one ..

While in our case, Muslim women are proud because of their modesty..all of them love islam and know how islam respects woman, and some of them thank Sami for this song, Some of them also wore veil after listening to it..
I think modesty as nudity is a free choice for any woman.. :)

the difference is great !

[sketchyjoe]

Whatever.

I'm sure the 15 schoolgirls who were forced to die rather than flee a burning a burning school "immodestly dressed" in Saudi Arabia a few years ago were amazed by the respect with which they were treated.

I'm sure the commonplace sexual harassment in Saudi Arabia, to the extent that parents are warned against sending their children overseas as it isn't tolerated in the west, is done with upmost respect.

I'm sure the people at the British Foreign Office who are responsible for liberating British women from forced marriages in Pakistan are astounded by the respect with which the women are treated.

I'm sure the people who order for women to be raped, beaten or murdered as punishment for their family members do it incredibly respectfully.

I'm sure a women walking 5 paces behind her husband is a great sign of respect to her.

The veil objectifies, segregates and subjugates.

**** you and **** your patriarchal propaganda. Believe whatever fairytales and bollocks you want to but don't try and coerce and brainwash anyone else into adhering to your bullshit.

[logic-echo]

Whatever.

I'm sure the 15 schoolgirls who were forced to die rather than flee a burning a burning school "immodestly dressed" in Saudi Arabia a few years ago were amazed by the respect with which they were treated. (it was a mistake from the principle not from islam)
I'm sure the commonplace sexual harassment in Saudi Arabia, to the extent that parents are warned against sending their children overseas as it isn't tolerated in the west, is done with upmost respect.{ by the way, sexual harassment is evey where.)
I'm sure the people at the British Foreign Office who are responsible for liberating British women from forced marriages in Pakistan are astounded by the respect with which the women are treated. ( again it is not from islam, according to islam i have the right to chose.)
I'm sure the people who order for women to be raped, beaten or murdered as punishment for their family members do it incredibly respectfully.

I'm sure a women walking 5 paces behind her husband is a great sign of respect to her.

The veil objectifies, segregates and subjugates.

**** you and **** your patriarchal propaganda. Believe whatever fairytales and bollocks you want to but don't try and coerce and brainwash anyone else into adhering to your bullshit.


and am sure you have not seen any show of dr.phil nor oprah to see the life you are living in. despite the examples you mettioned, women have more respect and choices in islam.

[sketchyjoe]

For your information, respect is not the same as equality.

If a man can have four wives he's not going to treat them the same as in a one-on-one partnership.

The veil segregates and prevents normal relationships between a man and a woman, be they platonic or otherwise. I've seen respected Muslim community leaders unable to meet the face of any woman not wearing the veil. It's a barrier to communication and understanding.

If a woman is treated as a second-class citizen, which they are in many Islamic communities, there can never equality. Separate but equal is not a valid doctrine.

What's more, the veil is offensive to men as well, implying that they're all rapists-in-waiting with animal urges that cannot be controlled and that the only thing worse than them is a woman as she'll tempt those urges with her indecency, so if she's raped or assaulted or harassed, it's her own fault.

It paints men as animals, and women as evil temptresses rather than a just people with the same needs and desires as each other and everyone else. It is divisive.

[AbdulRahman]

I'm so happy because you open that topic ...

Can we read before accusing each others of unproved statements? :)

I suggest that article :thumb:

Women in Islam versus Women in the Judeo-Christian Tradition: The Myth & The Reality

http://www.invitation2truth.com/islam/wm8.html

[AbdulRahman]

**** you and **** your patriarchal propaganda. Believe whatever fairytales and bollocks you want to but don't try and coerce and brainwash anyone else into adhering to your bull****.


Insults again...it's the second time...
Are we here in an open minded discussion or a war??????????
Where are the adminstrators????????????

[sketchyjoe]

Women in Islam versus Women in the Judeo-Christian Tradition: The Myth & The Reality

http://www.invitation2truth.com/islam/wm8.html
I do not agree or believe in Islam. I do not agree or believe in Christianity. I do not agree of believe in Judaism. What point are you trying to make? That one worthless dogma is worse than the worthless dogma you believe in?

I know women aren't treated equally by many Christians or Jews. I'm not arguing against them right now because you're not trying to tell me how great Christianity or Judaism is. You're espousing the faux-virtues of Islam. I am calling bullshit.

You have not answered the points I made, just referred be some irrevelant article.

[AbdulRahman]

If you read the article you would find the answers, however, I chose not to talk with such man who used to insult my religion..

For other participants..I have a word to say,

From less than a week..I had a conversation full of respect with an openminded athiest, finally he said that Islam is a great religion. He didn't embrace it but may be someday. This is the result of true scientific conversation based on right opinions.
If any person want to know the answers of those questions. just put his e-mail and I'm ready on my messenger, if ALLAH wills.

[sketchyjoe]

I read the article. It quotes the Qur'an a lot but never denies that Islam is a patriarchal society. All it says it that Judaism and Christianity are too, and that Islam should try not to be. Damn right Judaism and Christianity are too, I don't believe in them either. Damn right, Islam should try not to be, however that doesn't change the fact that it is. I'm not debating the words of the Qur'an, I'm debating the way things actually are, in the real world.

Once again, you failed to answer any points I made then claim it's because you're too offended. I'm deeply offended by the crap you peddle as god's words but I still have refuted the points you made, something which you cannot say you have done.

Stop acting high and mighty and either admit you're wrong or actually back up your arguments with fact. And by fact I do not mean some cherry-picked quotes from an ancient pamphlet.

And by the way, a vast majority of the Muslim guys I've met or known, and I have known a lot, have sworn like troopers. Would you refuse to talk to them?

[Surgicalgod]

sketchyjoe, you're thinking like the typical white American.

Stop generalizing and learn more about a culture or religion before you attack it. I'm with you on certain stuff about what muslim people do, but that doesn't mean the religion is bad.

There are sick people everywhere, it's just that the US media takes time to focus its cameras on what those 'terrorist' muslims do. Open your eyes and go beyond what your media gives you.

[sketchyjoe]

sketchyjoe, you're thinking like the typical white American.

Stop generalizing and learn more about a culture or religion before you attack it. I'm with you on certain stuff about what muslim people do, but that doesn't mean the religion is bad.

There are sick people everywhere, it's just that the US media takes time to focus its cameras on what those 'terrorist' muslims do. Open your eyes and go beyond what your media gives you.
I'm not American. I'm British. I went to a predominantly Muslim school. I go to a university that probably is at least a third Muslim.

At no time did I mention terrorism, I'm talking about oppressive Islamic domestic society, not violent militants. I'm aware of the issues regarding Islamic society, I'm aware of media distortion, I've read widely on both subjects. Hell, once I even tried to read the Qur'an. So please don't lecture me on not being informed enough.

I've already acknowledged that other religions are just as flawed, and yes, atheists and agnostics can be just as brutal. However, they are not being defended or put forward here, Islam is.

[AbdulRahman]

Here I am again, and I will post my answers to all your questions.
Before reading it I ask you to erase your insults and let's start a clean and a friendly scientific discussion.

If a man can have four wives he's not going to treat them the same as in a one-on-one partnership.

Well, I agree with you completely in that point, and for this reason, Polygamy isn't the base in islam, polygamy is neither mandatory, nor encouraged, but merely permitted.

The verse which allows polygamy “was revealed after the battle of Uhud in which many Muslims were killed, leaving widows and orphans for whom due care was incumbent upon the Muslim survivors.

The translation of the verse is as follows:
(If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then (marry) only one….) (Qur’an 4:3)

From this verse a number of facts are evident:

1-That polygamy is neither mandatory, nor encouraged, but merely permitted.
2-That the permission to practice polygamy is not associated with mere satisfaction of passion. It is rather associated with compassion toward widows and orphans, a matter that is confirmed by the atmosphere in which the verse was revealed.
3-That even in such a situation, the permission is far more restricted than the normal practice which existed among the Arabs and other people at that time when many married as many as ten or more wives.
4-That dealing justly with one’s wives is an obligation. This applies to housing, food, clothing, kind treatment. etc., for which the husband is fully responsible. If one is not sure of being able to deal justly with them, the Quran say: “then(marry) only one.”(Qur’an 4:3) This verse, when combined with another verse in the same chapter, shows some discouragement of such plural marriages. The other verse plainly states:“You are never able to be fair and just as between women even if it is your ardent desire…” (Qur’an 4: 129).

Remember also, Polygamy is a better solution in some cases, for reading in details, here's an article to read, but be sure it is revelant :) .

http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy5.htm

The veil segregates and prevents normal relationships between a man and a woman, be they platonic or otherwise. I've seen respected Muslim community leaders unable to meet the face of any woman not wearing the veil. It's a barrier to communication and understanding.

Well,I think you mean by Veil that the piece of scarf which covers the face, Islam don't order the women to cover their face, Islam orders women only to cover their hair , and all their body.
But face and both hands is allowed to appear.In some islamic commnunities they used to wear such cloth due to customs and traditions, it's their national cloth only !
But The true veil or true islamic cloth don't construct any barriers. I ask you and all the participants ; "When you talk with any woman about an important issue, is it necessary to see her hair or to look at her legs???"

The Quran does not suggest that women should be kept apart from the world of men. On the contrary, the Quran is insistent on the full participation of women in society and in the religious practices. Muslim women remained in mixed company with men until the late sixth century (A.H.) or 11 th century (A.C.). They received guests, held meetings and went to wars to help their
brothers and husbands, and they defended their castles and bastions.

for example: 'Al-Shifaa Bent Abdullah' was regared as the minister of economics in Omar Ibn Al-khattab's age, her role is to adminstrate and organize the act of buying and selling in markets, to warn and punish the decieving sellers "who were all men" and to arrange the whole financial issues.

If a woman is treated as a second-class citizen, which they are in many Islamic communities, there can never equality. Separate but equal is not a valid doctrine.

I think I can say your claim isn't based on any proofs, and you have to know more about islamic view and laws. I will give you a bit about that, let's have an example.

From more than 14 centuries, Women -by islamic laws- have the right to have their own money and their complete financial indepdance.

Let's take a look on the other side, The French law until 1938 was depriving any married women from this right, she wasn't allowed to sell anything that belongs to her if her husband don't agree, she wasn't allowed to have an account in the bank !!
In 1567 in Scotland, The scottish court issued a law that deprive women from having any authority!!.
In England until the 50's of the previous century, the British law wasn't treat woman as a "citizen" by the legal meaning, by the way they weren't have the right to possess anything even their own clothes! More from England, until 1805 it was allowed for any man to sell his wife!

[sketchyjoe]

Well, I agree with you completely in that point, and for this reason, Polygamy isn't the base in islam, polygamy is neither mandatory, nor encouraged, but merely permitted.

The verse which allows polygamy “was revealed after the battle of Uhud in which many Muslims were killed, leaving widows and orphans for whom due care was incumbent upon the Muslim survivors.

The translation of the verse is as follows:
(If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then (marry) only one….) (Qur’an 4:3)

From this verse a number of facts are evident:

1-That polygamy is neither mandatory, nor encouraged, but merely permitted.
2-That the permission to practice polygamy is not associated with mere satisfaction of passion. It is rather associated with compassion toward widows and orphans, a matter that is confirmed by the atmosphere in which the verse was revealed.
3-That even in such a situation, the permission is far more restricted than the normal practice which existed among the Arabs and other people at that time when many married as many as ten or more wives.
4-That dealing justly with one’s wives is an obligation. This applies to housing, food, clothing, kind treatment. etc., for which the husband is fully responsible. If one is not sure of being able to deal justly with them, the Quran say: “then(marry) only one.”(Qur’an 4:3) This verse, when combined with another verse in the same chapter, shows some discouragement of such plural marriages. The other verse plainly states:“You are never able to be fair and just as between women even if it is your ardent desire…” (Qur’an 4: 129).

Remember also, Polygamy is a better solution in some cases, for reading in details, here's an article to read, but be sure it is revelant :) .

http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy5.htmI know it's not mandatory but I don't think it should be allowed. Also the point about it helping widows and orphans to me implies that women are somehow weak and cannot cope by themselves, something I completely disagree with.Well,I think you mean by Veil that the piece of scarf which covers the face, Islam don't order the women to cover their face, Islam orders women only to cover their hair , and all their body.
But face and both hands is allowed to appear.In some islamic commnunities they used to wear such cloth due to customs and traditions, it's their national cloth only !
But The true veil or true islamic cloth don't construct any barriers. I ask you and all the participants ; "When you talk with any woman about an important issue, is it necessary to see her hair or to look at her legs???" When I say the Veil, I'm referring to Niqabs and Burkas, the simple head scarf is less offensive but it only the thin end of the wedge. Something as oppressive and divisive as a Niqab or Burka should not be allowed and if the head scarf was not there then the more extreme versions would not be there. You do not need to someone's hair to talk to them but in face-to-face conversation you need to see their face.
The Quran does not suggest that women should be kept apart from the world of men. On the contrary, the Quran is insistent on the full participation of women in society and in the religious practices. Muslim women remained in mixed company with men until the late sixth century (A.H.) or 11 th century (A.C.). They received guests, held meetings and went to wars to help their
brothers and husbands, and they defended their castles and bastions.The key word here is "until". Also, the fact that the Qur'an states something doesn't mean that it is practised. I believe the bible says slavery is an acceptable practice, it doesn't mean all Christians have slaves.
for example: 'Al-Shifaa Bent Abdullah' was regared as the minister of economics in Omar Ibn Al-khattab's age, her role is to adminstrate and organize the act of buying and selling in markets, to warn and punish the decieving sellers "who were all men" and to arrange the whole financial issues.Again, this was 1500 years ago. If you want to give evidence of an integrated society you'll need to use more contemporary examples.



I think I can say your claim isn't based on any proofs, and you have to know more about islamic view and laws. I will give you a bit about that, let's have an example.I'm basing it on my argument that women are not treated equally in many Islamic societies.

From more than 14 centuries, Women -by islamic laws- have the right to have their own money and their complete financial indepdance.That's theoretical. If a woman is a housewife, if she's pressured into giving up career, or not starting one (and I cannot recall ever meeting a Muslim whose mother was the main breadwinner) then despite all the technical details, she does not have financial independence and must rely on her husband.

Let's take a look on the other side, The French law until 1938 was depriving any married women from this right, she wasn't allowed to sell anything that belongs to her if her husband don't agree, she wasn't allowed to have an account in the bank !!
In 1567 in Scotland, The scottish court issued a law that deprive women from having any authority!!.
In England until the 50's of the previous century, the British law wasn't treat woman as a "citizen" by the legal meaning, by the way they weren't have the right to possess anything even their own clothes! More from England, until 1805 it was allowed for any man to sell his wife!I know England doesn't have the best past when it comes to equality. We subjugated half the world with a musket. Did you know we invented the concencentration camp? But bringing up the past in this way is totally irrevelant. As they say, the sins of the father should not be passed onto the children.


I do not agree with religion and I do not disagree with Islam. I'm still contending that Islam is oppressive (not only to women but to homosexuals as well) and it also stifles free speech.

[AbdulRahman]

I know it's not mandatory but I don't think it should be allowed.

Well, let us forbid polygamy, and When the number of women exceeds number of men in any society like what had happenend many times before, and happened now in Africa (Places like Rwanda, Angola and Niger). When this happened, let's deprive thousands of girls from having a partner, let's deprive them from their natural instincts, let's let widows who may aspire to a respectable family life crying all the day, let's open the door for secret marriage and streetwalkers and unlawful children !! Let us do that !!

In such situations, if polygamy is bad, the limitation on polygamy is even far worse.
I hope you depend on proofs not opinions !

Also the point about it helping widows and orphans to me implies that women are somehow weak and cannot cope by themselves, something I completely disagree with.

I agree with you, Women can cope by themselves, I don't say such a thing. But if a woman can't do that, so let her face a black life!!

If a widow can play the role of father and mother for kids in the same time, let her cope by herself ! If she can work for 8 hours per day,and looks after a baby,2 daughters and 3 sons, let her cope by herself ! If she can ignore her romantic instincts for the rest of her life so let her cope by herself !
Same for man, If he can live alone with his children, a big WHY for marriage then?? ..
If a man or a woman can live alone without each other, let us ignore reality and contradict natural facts and agree with your opinions!

When I say the Veil, I'm referring to Niqabs and Burkas, the simple head scarf is less offensive but it only the thin end of the wedge. Something as oppressive and divisive as a Niqab or Burka should not be allowed.

Well, I said they wore Niqabs and Burkas, because it is their national customs ! Everybody have the complete freedom to wear what he likes.. When you said it shouldn't be allowed, you make us return million years back! Isn't it their freedom to wear what they want?????
Can I say The scottish skirt for men is so offensive for me and ask them to change it??
People in Africa wear strange national customs, but it is appropriate for them, can I ask them to put it down and wear what I like??
By the way, U.S.A issued a law later which permits for women to be totally naked from the upper part in Metro Stations !!!
For me as a muslim, a scene like that is too offensive for me, and it would be more offensive for my kids and young daughters to see such nudity and lake of respect !

However, we are talking now on Hijab "head scarf", the true islamic veil, and you'd failed to differ between Islam and Islamic communities and still mix between.
Also It is one of the great ironies of our world today that the very same headscarf revered as a sign of 'holiness' when worn for the purpose of showing the authority of man by Catholic Nuns, is reviled as a sign of 'oppression' when worn for the purpose of protection by Muslim women.

if the head scarf was not there then the more extreme versions would not be there.

By the way, if the head scarf was not there then there would be nudity and unmodest clothes!
Why do you struggle for nudity?, What about being moderate?.

Islam chose the moderate way between women nudity and their staying in home. Woman wears a veil, a head scarf, a mark of her piety and modesty, she covered her body which no stranger has the right to see, then deals normally with society. That make it safe for them to go about their daily business without attracting unsavoury attention. Also, men had a role, Both
men and women are commanded by Allah to dress modestly.
Islam is an integrated system for a safe prosper society, I can't take a part of it only and asks on it, ignoring other parts. You said you had read the Qur'an before so I ask you to read "Surat Al Nur" and "Surat Yusuf" to know islamic teachings to construct a modest clean society, Allah orders us to dress modestly, Orders us to get married whenever we can do. For Youth and those who can't afford to marry "and ofcourse for all muslims", Allah orders them to avoid things that lead to sin such as watching pornography, advised them to fast to cool passions and control desires, advised them to "Haya" which is a beautiful concept in Islam. Sometimes translated as modesty or shame, there is no one word in English that fully describes what it means. It is a quality in character that makes a believer shine. They must do that until they be able to marry, and the Caliphate must help the youth to get married early to prevent secret relations.

By applying all the islamic rules, True islamic communities in the days of four Caliphates, makes an international record which can't be broken until now, the lowest rate of sexual assaults allover the history!! .

In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes, 1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives, 1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime, 1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university, and A study found 60% of Canadian university-aged males said they would commit sexual assault if they were certain they wouldn't get caught.
But any Muslim man is sure he is responsible for his acts, and will be judged in the day of Judgment !


You do not need to someone's hair to talk to them but in face-to-face conversation you need to see their face.
Well, Dear friend, you are Still mixing!
Should I repeat myself? :)
Islam permits seeing faces, when it is necessary in a face-to-face conversation ! The islamic veil covers hair and body only.

The key word here is "until". Also, the fact that the Qur'an states something doesn't mean that it is practised. I believe the bible says slavery is an acceptable practice, it doesn't mean all Christians have slaves.

Again, this was 1500 years ago. If you want to give evidence of an integrated society you'll need to use more contemporary examples.

I'm basing it on my argument that women are not treated equally in many Islamic societies.

The main problem in understanding islam is that you put Saudi Arabia and some arabic communities like Pakistan & Iran as an Ideal example for the islamic community. Unfortunately, They -all- don't apply the true islamic laws, so we haven't any real islamic state allover the world now !So we must take the islamic state in the Prophet's age and the four Caliphates, as an example for the islamic society.
We are talking now on the religion of Islam, not on the islamic communities. We judge the islamic scriptures and Historical events. We judge the days when muslim countries and states were applying islamic laws not the present days.

That's theoretical. If a woman is a housewife, if she's pressured into giving up career, or not starting one (and I cannot recall ever meeting a Muslim whose mother was the main breadwinner) then despite all the technical details, she does not have financial
independence and must rely on her husband.
Well, you had missed the point. Read it again to know what I had mean. :)

I know England doesn't have the best past when it comes to equality. We subjugated half the world with a musket. Did you know we invented the concencentration camp? But bringing up the past in this way is totally irrevelant. As they say, the sins of the father should not be passed onto the children.

I mean by my post that Islam had given the woman all her rights from centuries (I can mention to you more than 50 rights) ! Those rights had been given to her so so so late in western communities !
By the way , I say : "The sins of the present muslim communities should not be passed onto Islam". !
When muslim communities don't apply Islam, Non muslims ask us to take from the western example, while we have Our great religion !!!!

[sketchyjoe]

You can't base your arguments on some great past Islamic society, or on what Islam today should be like. Whether you like it or not Islam (and all other religions and creeds) are judged on the present practitioners and Islam gives these present practitioners the basis for their oppression of people.

I'm not saying if Islam or religion wasn't around there would be no oppression, people'd find another excuse to subjugate women and gay people, but as it is, these things are being done by Muslims and on a wide scale.

[Hamza]

You can't base your arguments on some great past Islamic society, or on what Islam today should be like.
I think you both are talking about how pure islam should be.. not talking about what is done by muslims nowadays.. correct me if i'm wrong plz.

[Surgicalgod]

I think you two should stop this lol. Noone's gunna convince the other of his point of view anyway.

Religion is probably the worst subject ever.

I'm not saying if Islam or religion wasn't around there would be no oppression, people'd find another excuse to subjugate women and gay people, but as it is, these things are being done by Muslims and on a wide scale.

sketchyjoe, it's not muslims who are doing this. It's just people who happen to be muslim.

I mean by my post that Islam had given the woman all her rights from centuries (I can mention to you more than 50 rights) ! Those rights had been given to her so so so late in western communities !


AbdulRahman, what you're saying IS right. This is something everybody uses when they defend Islam, but you all fail to see that Muslims now weren't the same as they were hundreds of years ago.

Let's just say ignorant Muslims are giving Islam a bad image. And there are many of those people....

[Hamza]

I think you two should stop this lol. Noone's gunna convince the other of his point of view anyway.
Not always i think.. sometimes we can bring our points of view close.. i wish that will happen.. i respect the minds i see here.. may God guides us all..

Religion is probably the worst subject ever.
lol.. may be because in religion every one has his Holy things.. how ever I still believe it's very important subject.

Let's just say ignorant Muslims are giving Islam a bad image. And there are many of those people....
you got the point... i agree with you in this totally!

[AbdulRahman]

AbdulRahman, what you're saying IS right. This is something everybody uses when they defend Islam, but you all fail to see that Muslims now weren't the same as they were hundreds of years ago.
Let's just say ignorant Muslims are giving Islam a bad image. And there are many of those people....

I agree with you totally, that is what I am trying to say from the start of our topic.. :)

I'm not saying if Islam or religion wasn't around there would be no oppression, people'd find another excuse to subjugate women and gay people.

Let us organize our ideas, I think I had proved that islam isn't oppresive to women, and Surgicalgod had agreed with me.

About gay people, it is another topic which we can discuss in some words if you need. :)

Muslims believe that every human action leads to consequences, everybody is free but responsible and he must measure the consequences before making any act. Didn't you Know the diseases which infect people and society from Adultery and Homosexuality!. Hadn't you hear about AIDS, Cervix Cancer, etc...Don't you know that Humanity may face a catastrophic end if we leave natural relations to homosexual ones !.

I refer you to 'WHO', I wish you read it's statistics.

Finally, if you agree to permit pilferage as it is a personal freedom for a theif, if you agree to permit raping as it is a personal freedom for a rapist,If you agree to harm yourself and infect society with dangerous diseases, If you agree to all of this,so let's permit Homosexual relations !

but as it is, these things are being done by Muslims and on a wide scale

Sketchyjoe, You may said those words if we had invented religion! .
I have my proofs that Islam had been revealed from Allah to prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
So, let branches and let's talk about Basis of beliefs. I'll submit some proofs that made me chose islam !!

[AbdulRahman]

I will submit my first scientific proof and I am waiting for comments..

Some verses in a holy book claim that the author of it was present when the universe first appeared, when life first began billions of years ago. We have a right to question this claim.
We ask the author, "Well tell us something to prove to us that YOU were there when they world began, life began."

In reply to our challenge, the author contains a dumbfounding statement. It reads, "Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and weparted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?" (21:30) (In general in the language of that holy book , 'We' is used not to show plurality, that several Gods exist , but rather as a sign of respect). Coincidentally, the universally accepted theory of 'the origin of the universe' is now the BIG BANG THEORY.

It maintains that at one time ALL OF HEAVENS AND THE EARTH were one piece, the 'monoblock' as it is called. At a particular point in time, this 'monoblock' burst and it continues to expand. This is the origin of the universe we have today. The Nobel Prize in Physics was awarded only a few years ago to those who confirmed the Big Bang Theory origin of the universe.

I think it is a great result !!!

another one? I think you ask for more....

It was only 200 years ago that Leeuwenhoek and others perfected the microscope and discovered for the first time that LIVING CELLS ARE COMPOSED OF 80% WATER.

The above information which was scientifically confirmed only in the last 2 centuries, can be found in a holy book which originated 14 centuries ago! Could it then have been written by an ordinary man or can it only be the work of God? ...

Let's read our verse again..It confirmed the vital statement that at one time, the universe was one piece, that life was made from water !!!, just as it says, "Have not the disbelievers seen that the Heavens and the Earth were one piece and we parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will they not then believe?" 21:30) ..

I think it is also a great result !!!

another one? OK..

In Chapter 51, verse 47,in the same holy book, it is mentioned that the heavens are expanding. As I mentioned earlier, this is in connection with the 'Big Bang' origin of the universe, as it is usually called, and it was in 1973 that the Nobel prize was awarded to three men who were confirming that, after all, the universe is expanding.

The comments of believers of that book over the centuries on this verse which speaks of the heavens doing exactly that is very interesting. The wisest among them stated that the words are very clear, that the heavens are expanding, but they could not imagine how that could be so. But they were content to leave the words as they were, to say: "Allah knows best." !

Well, such religion which I was talking about and it agrees totally with science facts in all its scriptures.. is Islam and that holy book is the Qur'an !!

If you need a total scientific proof on the existence of Allah, here is an one:

All scientists assumed that the gas bulb was created from nothing.
Einstein's General Theory of Relativity leads scientists to conclude that in its earliest instant, the universe was infinitely dense where its diameter was zero, i.e. nothing.
It has to be stated that ‘zero volume’ is a theoretical expression used for descriptive purposes. Science can define the concept of ‘nothingness’, which is beyond the limits of human comprehension, only by expressing it as ‘a point with zero volume’. In truth, ‘a point with no volume’ means ‘nothingness’. The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created. This Creator must be a being Who has created both matter and time, yet Who is independent of both.This Creator is Allah, Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth.

The renowned atheist philosopher Antony Flew comments on the issue: "Notoriously, confession is good for the soul. I will therefore begin by confessing that the Stratonician atheist has to be embarrassed by the contemporary cosmological consensus".

....

More on Why Allah is needed for the Big Bang ?! .... Read Details in those articles..

Scientific case of God:
http://saif_w.tripod.com/curious/God/scientific_case_of_god.htm

Being from a non being :
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/09reason01.php

[sketchyjoe]

That article seemed to take every point at which science has not yet provided an answer and said "If science can't provide an answer, then God must have done it!" Science has advanced so much in the last few centuries, what's beyond the realm of human comprehension today may be taught in schools in 100 years. Also, those Quranic quotes are all extremely subjective. In a book of over 6000 verses, you'd expect there to be some clear detailing in the origin of the Universe, not a couple of quotes that could be just about anything if presented in the right way out of context.

As for the argument about the Qur'an featuring facts which were not established by science until much later, that's what's known as a theory, a theory later proved right and people have them all the time, sometimes they are proved, sometimes they're disproved. For example, Democritus (who died in 370BC) came up with the idea that the universe is made up of atoms and this wasn't proved for thousands of years but even though it's true, it doesn't mean he was in conversation with god, it means that he came up with a theory of his devices which was later proved. Someone could've logically reasoned "All life needs water to survive, that must mean all life is made of water," at any point in history without any divine intervention at all. The fact that it's put in a book which claims to be the words of god doesn't mean it is.

[logic-echo]

sketchyjoe, i feel sorry for u.you do not belive in anything, moreover, u just listen to what is in your head. you can not accept any issue unless u manipulate it according to your desires. please, open your mind and heart and think cleary.
finally, i do not want you to accept nor disaccept islam, what am asking is to respect it and respect our choice.

[sketchyjoe]

Believe whatever you want, I don't care, but when those beliefs are acted upon in such a way that they lead to oppression and morally abhorrent activities (such as the murder of homosexuals) then I've got a problem with them.

And I feel sorry for you, after all, your life is based on a false premise. My mind is open to any belief that makes sense and I am thinking clearly as my thought process is unmuddied by superstition..

[Surgicalgod]

And I feel sorry for you, after all, your life is based on a false premise

The most typical reply in a religious discussion. There is no such thing as a false premise.

My mind is open to any belief that makes sense

No your mind is open to any belief that makes sense to YOU and only YOU. I'm sure if you were raised as a muslim you'd be thinking differently. Again, you can't blame the belief if the people misinterpret it.

About homosexuality, I don't think any righteous muslim thinks that he has the right to kill people for their sexual orientation. The ones you're talking about are extremist muslims who make up quotes from the Prophet so that what they do is 'right' to them.

I can go and research thousands of horrible things done by Jews or Christians then start a thread called "Christianity is BAD!!" and provide actual proof what 'those horrible christians' do, but that would be idiotic.

[sketchyjoe]

There is no such thing as a false premisePremise: a statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn.
False: Arising from mistaken ideas.No your mind is open to any belief that makes sense to YOU and only YOU.I'm so glad you understand although you say that like it's a bad thing.

[AbdulRahman]

That article seemed to take every point at which science has not yet provided an answer and said "If science can't provide an answer, then God must have done it!"

lol :) I am sure now you hadn't read the two articles yet !
Plz Read the part named "Why God is needed for the Big Bang" in the first article (Scientific case of God), and then argue scientifically, don't issue judgments before reading !. if you don't want to read, I will reply below now.

Science has advanced so much in the last few centuries, what's beyond the realm of human comprehension today may be taught in schools in 100 years.

Ofcourse you are completely right. Science everyday submits new facts.

But you must agree with me that there are a lot of scientific theories which science won't add any new information on it. For example, we all know that Earth planet is spherical in shape, schools after 100years will say the same :) .

We are talking now on the Origin of universe, we had reached the end, the gas bulb, scientists assured that it is created from nothing. Nothingness is the last thing that scientists will know, surely they won't know more than, and nothing new will be scientifically proved in the coming years !.

Do you have a reply for this scientific fact : "The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created. This Creator must be a being Who has created both matter and time, yet Who is independent of both."

Also, those Quranic quotes are all extremely subjective. In a book of over 6000 verses, you'd expect there to be some clear detailing in the origin of the Universe, not a couple of quotes that could be just about anything if presented in the right way out of context

Those verses are talking on the origin of the Universe only, it have no spiritutal meaning, you can read the whole text to know that. Also Qur'an is valid for all times, if those informations were submitted in more details then no one at past time would understand anything !

Democritus (who died in 370BC) came up with the idea that the universe is made up of atoms and this wasn't proved for thousands of years but even though it's true, it doesn't mean he was in conversation with god

:) , Really I was waiting for this question ! ..And I will use to post my 2nd scientific proof..

You said Democritus, who we all known as a pre-Socratic Greek philosopher.But Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate, he had never read a book, and this is the miracle !
Muhammad's disbelivers who try to refuse his call with every effort they ever had, had completely failed to know the source of his book.
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur'an is evident in the confidence which is prevalent throughout it; and this confidence comes from a different approach - "Exhausting the alternatives." In essence, the Qur'an states, "This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?".
In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has yet come up with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have bee exhausted.
There exists a very interesting reference concerning this subject in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. In an article under the subject of the Qur'an, the Catholic Church states: "Over the centuries, many theories have been offered as to the origin of the Qur'an... Today no sensible man accepts any of these theories!!" .
I remembered what Goethe said : "If we claim that Qur'an isn't God's word, then we consider Muhammad our God ! " , but Muhammad peace be upon him didn't say such thing, he said only I am a prophet from Allah!

Then the burden of proof is on the critic, what are your proofs that Qur'an isn't a divine revelation ?!. Beliefs must be based on proofs , if don't ,they are only SUSPICIONS ! I hope to recieve a scientific answer either than : "We Atheists don't believe in texts, because they are all subjective " ! .

Also Democritus' theories weren't all true, he had made a lot of wrong ones. On the other side, A truly scientific approach to the Qur'an is possible because the Qur'an offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand. This is exactly what the Qur'an has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, "If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false." Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do "This or this or this," and thus it is still considered true and authentic.

Qur'an states (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82): "Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with man's personality. One doesn't take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, "This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can!" One just doesn't do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Qur'an approaches people ! :)

[logic-echo]

:thumb: well done my brother .
Believe me I tried to talk reasonably to sketchyjoe, but no way he can accept or understand ,he just like to attack.
Let him think whatever he want, our beliefs is bigger than him and any one else.
My brother, save your energy and time to someone who want to have a sound conversion, there are millions of people who have their own beliefs and want to know about our beliefs ,in a respectable way not just like MR. sketchyjoe. Hence, we need to give them our attention, am right?

[sketchyjoe]

I have no beliefs? :lol: Just because I do not follow a dogma does not mean I am without beliefs.

And to AbdulRahman, I did read that article, and what I said is true, scientists do not know where the universe came from, and that article just assumes that as they don't know and cannot (yet) scientifically explain the concept of nothingness, then God did it. It also asserts that life is improbable therefore God must have done it. What's more, even if you do take that as scientific proof for God (I do not discount the notion of there being a creator) that does not link it with Islam in any way so it randomly inserts Quranic quotes which could be about anything (referring to the heavens and the stars does not mean that it's about the origins of the universe) to make it look like the Quranic refers to everything.

So you're challenging me to read the Qur'an in order to find something wrong with it? That's very convenient for you, saying that I must read a long, boring, badly written book in order to refute your claims. I will not attempt to read the Qur'an again in order to satisfy your puerile demands.

"This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?".

It is a book, it tells some stories, some of it may be true, some of it is certainly false. It is nothing more, nothing less, than a book.

This started off by me saying that Islamic Society does not treat women equally (which it does not) and somehow you've managed to elevate it into a full on discussion about the existence of God, I'm not going get into a large debate about whether there is a higher power, because there if there is one, God doesn't give a crap. And do you know why? Because I have decided that and that's good enough for me. And you've obviously come to the conclusion that God does give a crap, that should be good enough for you.

In the mean time, women are still being oppressed, homosexuals are still being oppressed, and a large percentage of Islamic societies are still unequal and divisive. Maybe you should try focusing on making a positive change on that front if you want me to agree with you on any point. It would seem like a more useful use of your time than futiley attempting to convert some stubborn heathen like me.

[AbdulRahman]

well done my brother .
Believe me I tried to talk reasonably to sketchyjoe, but no way he can accept or understand ,he just like to attack.
Let him think whatever he want, our beliefs is bigger than him and any one else.
My brother, save your energy and time to someone who want to have a sound conversion, there are millions of people who have their own beliefs and want to know about our beliefs ,in a respectable way not just like MR. sketchyjoe. Hence, we need to give them our attention, am right?

You are 100 % right :thumb: , I put some music, sketchyjoe had started and insult islam, I refused to talk with him, then he asked me to come back and reply, when I start a scientific talk, he found himself ignorant and didn't know anything about islam or science, then he asked to finish the talk , and still repeat the same claims without proofs. :)

randomly inserts Quranic quotes which could be about anything.
he still claims he knows Qur'an more than us !

It is a book, it tells some stories, some of it may be true, some of it is certainly false. It is nothing more, nothing less, than a book.
he still judges without reading. All disbelivers who studied Qur'an had failed to
prove any fault in the Qur'an. But sketchyjoe who hadn't read it , knows more :) .

I must read a long, boring, badly written book in order to refute your claims. I will not attempt to read the Qur'an again in order to satisfy your puerile demands.

as he said that he must admit that he is ignorant, he must shut up his mouth, and stop accusing others of unproved claims about sth he don't know.

In the mean time, women are still being oppressed, homosexuals are still being oppressed, and a large percentage of Islamic societies are still unequal and divisive. Maybe you should try focusing on making a positive change on that front if you want me to agree with you on any point. It would seem like a more useful use of your time than futiley attempting to convert some stubborn heathen like me.

Really, I don't mind if he change his view about muslim communities or no, I refused what muslim communities doing now as they don't apply islam,Muslim societies have deviated from the Islamic precepts concerning so many aspects of their lives for so long. There is a wide gap between what Muslims are supposed to believe in and what they actually practice. yet, he still repeats himself and asked me to defend them !! :) .

I asked him to care about himself, what about western communities, what is the purpose when there is a marriage that woman changes her name and put his husband's family name instead !!! , what is the purpose when there is a man and a woman in the same work, Man gets more salary???.

Why is it that women in North America dare not walk alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ???

What about those statistics written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's office at Queen's University:

In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes,
1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives,
1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime,
1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university !!

What about a society like France which expels young women from schools because of their modest dress???

In past, The Crusades butchered 1 million innocent civilian men, women and children ,But Islam when taken the city "Jerusalem " Islam reveals tolerance toward the followers of other religions. It released the patriarchs, priests and their servants from the obligations of taxes. It prohibited, in special, the killing of priests for their performance of worship, and Omar Ibn Al-Khattab did not inflict harm on the Christians when he entered Jerusalem as a conqueror. The Crusaders, however, did slay Muslims and burn the Jews when they entered the city."

America's use of the atom bomb on the innocent civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki—a crime of horrifying magnitude against humanity itself.

America's war in Vietnam lasted from 1964 to 1973
Let us remember the War killed approximately two million people from 1964 to 1969 ,also if you should know US planes dropped seven million tons of bombs on Vietnam, or one 500lb bomb for every man, woman and child in the country - twice the total that was dropped on both Europe and Asia during the whole of the Second World War.

U.S. bombing raids on Panama City ignited a conflagration in a civilian neighborhood, fed by stove gas tanks. Over 2,000 Panamanians were killed in the invasion to capture one leader.

In present, Serbian Massacres against Muslims in Kosovo were founded in mass thousands and thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered and raped by the so-called Christian Serbs while the U.S. imposed a "no-fly zone" which prevented other countries for assisting the Muslims , Prevented the Muslims to be armed , Prevented any action against the Christian Serbs
for Many bloody years .

The U.S. IS accountable for over 1.5 million deaths of Iraqi civilians during the past 12 years due to sanctions and over 15.000 Iraqi were killed By U.S. Not for humanitarian reasons. not to protect the American people nor freedom and democracy.

What about Guantanamo ??
What about AboGhurib ??
What about throwing iraqian's holy book in bathrooms????

Because I have decided that and that's good enough for me. And you've obviously come to the conclusion that God does give a crap, that should be good enough for you.

So why didn't he respect my choice from the begining ???!!!

Really I asked other participants to put their aware comments !!

[FuzzyDuck]

Haha this is the first time on this site where I've seen Religious people outnumber atheists/agnostics.

Anyway, AbdulRahman feel free to post your proofs in the Politics, News and World Issues forum which can be found here: http://musicianforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=61

There are people in there who I'm sure would love to debate this with you.

[Music4All]

Man...:( I feel sorry 4 u sketchyjoe
Did you ever get sick ? had fever toothache , or just Missed breath while swiming...? If u answered only One Yes to the above question you will know that u are weak and there's a creator that dont sleep , dont eat , dont need medication and dont have a family nor kids nor wife ...and this is called a creator ....try to create for me from scratch a small stone without having help to anything in our universe....YOU Can't...so you are weak....but you are Not ignorant ,cos The creator gave A brain to use and did not give a small stone in Your scull....next i will ask you this think about the nanosecond after Your last Breath ... what will await u..amd how.? just take a piece of paper and write all possibilties...

Good Luck on Your Lonely Cruise.

Regards !

A Human Like U

[sketchyjoe]

You are 100 % right , I put some music, sketchyjoe had started and insult islam, I refused to talk with him, then he asked me to come back and reply, when I start a scientific talk, he found himself ignorant and didn't know anything about islam or science, then he asked to finish the talk , and still repeat the same claims without proofs.Disagreeing with a cod-science article that provides retroactive 'proofs' for a religion is not ignorance, it's thinking. he still claims he knows Qur'an more than us !


he still judges without reading. All disbelivers who studied Qur'an had failed to
prove any fault in the Qur'an. But sketchyjoe who hadn't read it , knows more :) .I do not claim to know the Qur'an better than you. I have tried to read it, and nothing I read in any way suggested that it was anymore than a book.



as he said that he must admit that he is ignorant, he must shut up his mouth, and stop accusing others of unproved claims about sth he don't know.Ignorant about the Qur'an, probably. Ignorant about Islam today, no, and that's the issue which is in question here. I didn't say anything about any of the songs which are just retellings of Quranic stories. I objected to the song which was sung from a women's point of view about how great being segregated was, the only song which was about current Muslim societies.
Really, I don't mind if he change his view about muslim communities or no, I refused what muslim communities doing now as they don't apply islam,Muslim societies have deviated from the Islamic precepts concerning so many aspects of their lives for so long. There is a wide gap between what Muslims are supposed to believe in and what they actually practice. yet, he still repeats himself and asked me to defend them !! :) .Because you're endorsing the notion that women should cover up, which is not about the Qur'an or 'pure' Islam, that's about women today.I asked him to care about himself, what about western communities, what is the purpose when there is a marriage that woman changes her name and put his husband's family name instead !!! , what is the purpose when there is a man and a woman in the same work, Man gets more salary???.My mum didn't take my dad's name. There is still a gender pay-gap however it is decreasing, and the gender pay gap is obvious because of the amount of women in employment. You seem to be suggesting here that as women are likely to be paid less that they shouldn't go into work at all. Isn't it better than to try to change things than to accept them and give up?

Why is it that women in North America dare not walk alone in a dark street - or even across an empty parking lot ???

What about those statistics written in a pamphlet issued by the Dean of Women's office at Queen's University:

In Canada, a woman is sexually assaulted every 6 minutes,
1 in 3 women in Canada will be sexually assaulted at some time in their lives,
1 in 4 women are at the risk of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime,
1 in 8 women will be sexually assaulted while attending college or university !!And I suppose that does not happen in Islamic society? A major Saudi newspaper recently admitted to a "culture of sexual harassment" in Saudi Arabia. In a society where women can be stoned to death for falling pregnant out of wedlock, and where the myth that men cannot control their sexual urges so women must cover up in order to do it for them, they are dar less likely to report any rape for fear of being blamed themselves. What's more, the Qur'an permits rape of one's spouse in 2:223 "Your wives are a tilth (tilled earth) for you, so go into your tilth when you like"
What about a society like France which expels young women from schools because of their modest dress???Ever heard of the separation of church and state? And anyway, it's not modest, it's a barrier between them and the world that instills shame over their body and their sex and makes them

In past, The Crusades butchered 1 million innocent civilian men, women and children ,But Islam when taken the city "Jerusalem " Islam reveals tolerance toward the followers of other religions. It released the patriarchs, priests and their servants from the obligations of taxes. It prohibited, in special, the killing of priests for their performance of worship, and Omar Ibn Al-Khattab did not inflict harm on the Christians when he entered Jerusalem as a conqueror. The Crusaders, however, did slay Muslims and burn the Jews when they entered the city."I'm glad to see you're still using current examples.

America's use of the atom bomb on the innocent civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki—a crime of horrifying magnitude against humanity itself.

America's war in Vietnam lasted from 1964 to 1973
Let us remember the War killed approximately two million people from 1964 to 1969 ,also if you should know US planes dropped seven million tons of bombs on Vietnam, or one 500lb bomb for every man, woman and child in the country - twice the total that was dropped on both Europe and Asia during the whole of the Second World War.

U.S. bombing raids on Panama City ignited a conflagration in a civilian neighborhood, fed by stove gas tanks. Over 2,000 Panamanians were killed in the invasion to capture one leader.

In present, Serbian Massacres against Muslims in Kosovo were founded in mass thousands and thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered and raped by the so-called Christian Serbs while the U.S. imposed a "no-fly zone" which prevented other countries for assisting the Muslims , Prevented the Muslims to be armed , Prevented any action against the Christian Serbs for Many bloody years .

The U.S. IS accountable for over 1.5 million deaths of Iraqi civilians during the past 12 years due to sanctions and over 15.000 Iraqi were killed By U.S. Not for humanitarian reasons. not to protect the American people nor freedom and democracy.

What about Guantanamo ??
What about AboGhurib ??
What about throwing iraqian's holy book in bathrooms????You just stated lots of facts that I already knew. Why are you assuming I'm pro-US, just because I'm against Iran and Saudi Arabia? That's the sort of with us or against us mentality that is used by the people like the US government to justify unjust wars. Is that the sort of people you want to compare yourself to by using that reasoning?

So why didn't he respect my choice from the begining ???!!!Believe in god if you want, believe in the Qur'an if you want. However, I started disagreeing with you because you're promoting the headscarf and by extension, the veil. You're imposing your will on others, you're segregating men and women and you're claiming to respect women but you're not claiming that they are equal. That's why I disagree with you.

[On The Edge]

Ok, atleast 3 of the posters in this thread are the same person.

Nacho I.P this

[AbdulRahman]

Anyway, AbdulRahman feel free to post your proofs in the Politics, News and World Issues forum which can be found here: http://musicianforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=61
There are people in there who I'm sure would love to debate this with you.


First of All, thanks for your invitation. :)
However, I think there can't be a debate on islam between a muslim and a person who don't know anything about Islam. I can't make an interactive debate with you concerning a book that I hadn't read before, or it will be sth useless like my discussion with sketchyjoe now ! .
The main problem here is generalizing judgements, most of atheists put all religions with islam in one block, they put all holy scriptures with Qur'an in one block, put the concept of Allah in Islam with concepts in other eligions.By the way, they accused islam of other religions faults !!. In Fact, Islam is so different from any religion ! Also they don't know islamic teachings and ask you to defend "muslim" not "islamic" communities and acts which you refused totally as it don't present or apply islam !!

I ask you all to read about Islam, and take your time to study it, there are a lot of sites on the Internet that will help you. I will suggest some:
http://www.harunyahya.com
http://www.islamfortoday.com
http://www.islaam.co.uk
http://www.zaytuna.org

whenever you finished, just send me an e-mail, and I will be ready for such debate!

For you sketchyjoe, I asked you many times not to repeat the same claims, I hope you read my posts well, I said before and say now for the last time : "I refused what muslim communities doing now as they don't apply islam,Muslim societies have deviated from the Islamic precepts concerning so many aspects of their lives for so long. There is a wide gap between what Muslims are supposed to believe in and what they actually practice". There is nothing named "Islam today", Islam is the same in all histories, Scriptures and teachings is the same, whenever muslims don't apply islam, then it's their fault not the fault of Islam !

Disagreeing with a cod-science article that provides retroactive 'proofs' for a religion is not ignorance, it's thinking.

Whenever you put a post, I analyze all of your words, you didn't do the same but post general words about the whole topic, Ignore parts and choose others !
You didn't discuss with me scientific facts in that topic by analyzing it, In fact, You judge the whole topic, then I replied to you, But you post your previous same reply to escape from putting an answer, as we are listening to a cassette tape !

We are talking now on the Origin of universe, we had reached the end, the gas bulb, scientists assured that it is created from nothing. Nothingness is the last thing that scientists will know, surely they won't know more than, and nothing new will be scientifically proved in the coming years !.Do you have a reply for this scientific fact : "The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created. This Creator must be a being Who has created both matter and time, yet Who is independent of both."

And for those who think, if I told you that computer has no manufacturer, no one invented or designed it, you will shout and say : "You're crazy !" , so what about that ultimate universe ? .

You seem to be suggesting here that as women are likely to be paid less that they shouldn't go into work at all. Isn't it better than to try to change things than to accept them and give up?

I don't say that of course , Islam permits woman work in a lot of cases, I give you examples before, Yet you find it funny to distort my words !! :smash:

the Qur'an permits rape of one's spouse in 2:223 "Your wives are a tilth (tilled earth) for you, so go into your tilth when you like"

Again you talk about sth you don't study it. :)

First of all , The perfect intellect man is known from the way he choose his sources to gain inforamtion and knowledge ! The verse isn't translated well, I hope you return to Pickhtall or Yusuf Ali' Translation to read it.

2- You must know the meaning of that verse, "Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when and how you please." (Al-Baqarah 223).
Can you see that word "How" , The verse means the husband may come to his wife and have sexual intercourse with her in any manner they wish and in any position they like as long as it is through the woman's sexual organ.
This is proven by what Imam Muslim recorded in his Sahih on the authority of Jaabir who said: The Jews would say that if a man came to his wife from behind but through the omnibus, the child would be cross-eyed! Then the verse was revealed, "Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when and how you please." (Al-Baqarah 223).
In a narration recorded by Abu Dawood, ibn Umar stated in explaining the aforementioned verse, "From in front, from behind of lying on the back, meaning through the place of the delivery of the child."
Al-Zuhri added in his narration, "If you wish, from in front [on top] and if you wish other than from in front, but it must always be through [the] one opening."

I am sure you know the diseases affecting women from sodomy "having sexual intercourse in woman's back",These include health and psychological effects upon both the man and the woman. It is an act that is hated naturally and by sound tastes. Also it deprives woman from getting enjoyment and represents a sign of lack of respect. I hope you return to statistics, and British courts to hear spouse's problems !

3- Islam is the first religion to put the Etiquette of the Wedding Night and sexual intercourse between man and his spouse, with all its details !

It is recommended for the husband to have foreplay with his wife before sexual intercourse. The prophet peace be upon him forbids coming to your wife without her will or when she isn't ready to, or without romantic introductions "such as a kiss and a romantic word" , the prophet peace be upon him warns us from falling on our wives like animals, without romantic introductions !, It is recommended for the husband to have foreplay with his wife before sexual intercourse. The prophet ordered us to make a message of love and Romance.He should put his hand on her head and pray for her. He should make his wife feel relax and comfortable. It is also recommended for muslim man, before he comes to her, to purify his mouth and prevent it from having an unpleasant smell. The same is true with respect to her.
Also if the man fulfills his desire with his wife, he should not leave her until she also fulfills her desire, this is more fitting to engender love and good feelings between them.

Really, I love that great religion ,which Ignorants distorted it's image !

I'm glad to see you're still using current examples.
Isn't History is the mirror of Future????
If you know a bit about an academic science named "Socialogy" you won't say such word !

You just stated lots of facts that I already knew. Why are you assuming I'm pro-US, just because I'm against Iran and Saudi Arabia? That's the sort of with us or against us mentality that is used by the people like the US government to justify unjust wars.
Is that the sort of people you want to compare yourself to by using that reasoning?

It's not America only, What about the last video tape that Aljazeera air showing british soliders striking iraqian weak boys?? , However Let's end to a final conclusion, I'm against Iran and Saudi Arabia, I'm against UK and USA, I'm against any act that deprive any man from human rights, I seek for peace, justice and prospered society. I present as a solution "Islam" and this is History to search Islamic age when applying pure Islamic rules !.

Really it is my last post, as I feel we are repeated the same words, I really enjoyed that discussion even if you don't know anything about Islam. I hope to have a talk again later but I hope you will be ready at the next time, There is Internet, choose trusted sources and study that religion to make a larger debate in the Future :) !

Peace be unto all of you !

[sketchyjoe]

For you sketchyjoe, I asked you many times not to repeat the same claims, I hope you read my posts well, I said before and say now for the last time : "I refused what muslim communities doing now as they don't apply islam,Muslim societies have deviated from the Islamic precepts concerning so many aspects of their lives for so long. There is a wide gap between what Muslims are supposed to believe in and what they actually practice". There is nothing named "Islam today", Islam is the same in all histories, Scriptures and teachings is the same, whenever muslims don't apply islam, then it's their fault not the fault of Islam !But, as I have previously stated, I did not say anything about any of the songs telling Quranic stories, only about the one which was concerned with Islamic society today.

Whenever you put a post, I analyze all of your words, you didn't do the same but post general words about the whole topic, Ignore parts and choose others !
You didn't discuss with me scientific facts in that topic by analyzing it, In fact, You judge the whole topic, then I replied to you, But you post your previous same reply to escape from putting an answer, as we are listening to a cassette tape !I posted the same thing because I read that article and told you it was crap to which you responded that I must not have read it if I didn't believe it. I don't know if god exists or not, what I do know is that article does not support the idea that the Qur'an explains the origins of the universe.



And for those who think, if I told you that computer has no manufacturer, no one invented or designed it, you will shout and say : "You're crazy !" , so what about that ultimate universe ? .A living creature is infinitely more complex than any computer yet it was not designed.



I don't say that of course , Islam permits woman work in a lot of cases, I give you examples before, Yet you find it funny to distort my words !! :smash: Be careful with your words then, see what they imply before you post them.


Again you talk about sth you don't study it. :)

First of all , The perfect intellect man is known from the way he choose his sources to gain inforamtion and knowledge ! The verse isn't translated well, I hope you return to Pickhtall or Yusuf Ali' Translation to read it.

2- You must know the meaning of that verse, "Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when and how you please." (Al-Baqarah 223).
Can you see that word "How" , The verse means the husband may come to his wife and have sexual intercourse with her in any manner they wish and in any position they like as long as it is through the woman's sexual organ. I love the point you're making here. You say I misquoted the verse, so you restate it without changing the word which makes it offensive. I thought that the verse was just that men could have sex with their wives whenever he wanted, without their consent. It turns out that men can have sex with their wives whenever he wants, without their consent, and in lots of different positions. Thanks for clearing that up.
This is proven by what Imam Muslim recorded in his Sahih on the authority of Jaabir who said: The Jews would say that if a man came to his wife from behind but through the omnibus, the child would be cross-eyed! Then the verse was revealed, "Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when and how you please." (Al-Baqarah 223).
In a narration recorded by Abu Dawood, ibn Umar stated in explaining the aforementioned verse, "From in front, from behind of lying on the back, meaning through the place of the delivery of the child."
Al-Zuhri added in his narration, "If you wish, from in front [on top] and if you wish other than from in front, but it must always be through [the] one opening."That verse is still endorsing rape.

I am sure you know the diseases affecting women from sodomy "having sexual intercourse in woman's back",These include health and psychological effects upon both the man and the woman. It is an act that is hated naturally and by sound tastes. Also it deprives woman from getting enjoyment and represents a sign of lack of respect. I hope you return to statistics, and British courts to hear spouse's problems !Lots of baseless assertions here. And your distaste for sodomy is a clear indicator of how you must feel about homosexuality.

3- Islam is the first religion to put the Etiquette of the Wedding Night and sexual intercourse between man and his spouse, with all its details ![/COLOR]

It is recommended for the husband to have foreplay with his wife before sexual intercourse. The prophet peace be upon him forbids coming to your wife without her will or when she isn't ready to, or without romantic introductions "such as a kiss and a romantic word" , the prophet peace be upon him warns us from falling on our wives like animals, without romantic introductions !, It is recommended for the husband to have foreplay with his wife before sexual intercourse. The prophet ordered us to make a message of love and Romance.He should put his hand on her head and pray for her. He should make his wife feel relax and comfortable. It is also recommended for muslim man, before he comes to her, to purify his mouth and prevent it from having an unpleasant smell. The same is true with respect to her.
Also if the man fulfills his desire with his wife, he should not leave her until she also fulfills her desire, this is more fitting to engender love and good feelings between them.So the Qur'an is contradicting itself here by going against the verse I quoted.

Isn't History is the mirror of Future????
If you know a bit about an academic science named "Socialogy" you won't say such word !No. One of the greatest mistakes you can make in History is using it to predict the future, or placing the rules of one situation onto another
It's not America only, What about the last video tape that Aljazeera air showing british soli. I'm against Iran and Saudi Arabia, I'm against UK and USA, I'm against any act that deprive any man from human rights, I seek for peace, justice and prospered society. I present as a solution "Islam" and this is History to search Islamic age when applying pure Islamic rules !.Can you understand the concept of not following a prescribed set of beliefs? I don't follow Islam, I don't follow patriotism, or nationalism, or capitalism. Just because you tie yourself down by making yourself part of a group, doesn't mean everyone else does. I believe in Human Rights, because they make sense to me morally, anyone+

Really it is my last post, as I feel we are repeated the same words, I really enjoyed that discussion even if you don't know anything about Islam. I hope to have a talk again later but I hope you will be ready at the next time, There is Internet, choose trusted sources and study that religion to make a larger debate in the Future :) !I enjoyed that discussion too. It was very clever how you switched the topic from a one in which you are clearly in the wrong, about the treatment of women in Muslim societies, to one which no-one can ever win, about the existence of a god. Still, you have never stated that you believe women are equal to men. You've stated that they should be respected, which means nothing as the Nazis had great respect for women (or at least their idea of what women should be) yet still segregated them and treated them as second class citizens. You've stated that the Qur'an gives women many rights, rights which they are no longer given by people who claim to follow the Qur'an.

But you've still never said that women are equal to men.

[logic-echo]

Oh my brother abdulrahman what a great effort-gazakah allah kola kaeer-inshallah it will be in your advantage balance.

To sketchyjoe, women are equal to men in Islam in a way that you can not realize, even if I tried to explain you will not bother to understand.

Finally-just for your knowlegde-notice the following points:

1- am an arabic woman
2- am wearing both veil and burkh
3- i have BS in accounting
4- am working (private business)
5- am a mother of 2
6- i met my husband through the internet. we get married after 4 years.

am living like any woman in your neighborhood, may be better. so, do not say women are living baddly in arabic countries or not equal, yet, there are individual situations . I think every where there are sick people.

Bottom line:

MY LIFE IS ISLAM.
I have THE CHOICE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.
have a nice day MR. ignorant

[sketchyjoe]

You may have chosen that way of life, it doesn't mean everyone does.

[Hamza]

I don't know if god exists or not

a very simple question: so what? don't you think that you should know about that?

It is a great admit from you, It means your knowledge depends only on doubts, I hope you visit that site in order to have proofs :

http://www.55a.net
A Scientific Experience Pushed The Young Researcher To The Adoption Of Islam: http://www.55a.net/firas/english/index.php?page=show_det&id=83
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/allah/proof.htm
http://islamyesterday.com/science/
http://www.science4islam.com/index.aspx?lng=e

Also there was a famous atheist named Dr.Jeffrey Lang who was the same as yours but found some proofs so he changed his way !
I hope you can read this book Struggling to Surrender

http://www.about-islam.org/books/Struggling_to_Surrender.pdf

A living creature is infinitely more complex than any computer yet it was not designed.

A baseless claim ..!!. What are your proofs for saying it was not designed.? when i saw a forum like this.. i'm sure that some one had installed it.. it didn't come from nothing!.. that's what my mind can't accept ! :)

[sketchyjoe]

a very simple question: so what? don't you think that you should know about that?

It is a great admit from you, It means your knowledge depends only on doubts, I hope you visit that site in order to have proofs :

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/allah/proof.htmThe previous 'proofs' of Islam posted stated that the Qur'an referred directly to the big bang whereas this one denies such an event ever occurred. Which one is it? It also includes such mind-shattering answers to questions like "Who created God?" with proofs like "He just exists, in a way that the universe can't."http://islamyesterday.com/science/So some not very well known scientists have out-of-context quotes that seem to suppot the Qur'an because of the things it may or may not state were later proven true.
http://www.science4islam.com/index.aspx?lng=eMore subjective quotes and retroactive justification.

Also there was a famous atheist named Dr.Jeffrey Lang who was the same as yours but found some proofs so he changed his way !
I hope you can read this book Struggling to SurrenderI'm not atheist, I'm agnostic. The existence of god will not be proven to me short of him coming down and telling me himself.



A baseless claim ..!!. What are your proofs for saying it was not designed.? when i saw a forum like this.. i'm sure that some one had installed it.. it didn't come from nothing!.. that's what my mind can't accept ! :)Evolution is not baseless.

[logic-echo]

You may have chosen that way of life, it doesn't mean everyone does.


HOW SAID THAT EVERYONE HAVE TO CHOSES THIS WAY OF LIFE.

THERE ARE TWO PATHS IN LIFE RIGHT AND WRONG ,WE HAVE TO THINK WHICH WAY WE WANT. THERE WILL BE WINNERS AND LOSERS REGARDLESS OF THEIR RELIGION. IS'NT IT??????

ANY WAY,BE ATTATION OF WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING HERE.

YOUR MAIN POINT WAS THAT WOMEN IN ISLAM ARE SUFFERING oppression.HOWEVER; I GAVE YOU MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AS AN EXAMPLE. YET, YOU DID NOT BOTHER TO ASK ME ANYTHING, JUST YOU CHOSE TO RUNAROUND. WHAT A STYLE YOU HAVE MR. I THINK YOUR TECNIQUES SHOULD BE STUDIED.

[sketchyjoe]

You cannot argue that all women in Islam are free and treated equally to men. I couldn't give a crap about your life.

[logic-echo]

You cannot argue that all women in Islam are free and treated equally to men.I couldn't give a crap about your life.

NOT ALL WOMEN TREATED EQUALLY BUT THE MAJORITY ARE.

IN YOUR COUNTRY, ARE ALL WOMEN TREATED EQUALLY??? ARE ALL BRITISH WOMEN HAPPY AND FREE???!!!!!

NO NO NO....STILL THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE EVERY WHERE.

YOU ARE MAKING AN ISSUE FROM NOTHING.

I couldn't give a crap about your life.QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAHAHA:lol: BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT BELIEVE IT

[sketchyjoe]

NOT ALL WOMEN TREATED EQUALLY BUT THE MAJORITY ARE.The majority where?

IN YOUR COUNTRY, ARE ALL WOMEN TREATED EQUALLY??? ARE ALL BRITISH WOMEN HAPPY AND FREE???!!!!!No, but they should be, everyone should be judged soley on their actions and beliefs, not who they are.

NO NO NO....STILL THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE EVERY WHERE.Bad people too. So what?

YOU ARE MAKING AN ISSUE FROM NOTHING.Widespread theology-based patriarchy may be nothing to those who willingly acquiesce to it but some hold equality in a somewhat higher regard.

The fact that, as a man, when someone wears the veil, I'm being regarded as an animal who cannot control his instincts and primal urges, is vastly offensive, and it is not nothing.

HAHAHAHAHAHA:lol: BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT BELIEVE IT
Though, it is barelyt credible to someone who assumes that people would do the most logical thing all the time, an apparently smart woman degrading herself with an object which oppresses millions of her fellow women does not surprise me, it merely saddens me.

Often, matters of segregation are not de jure but de facto, something that's much harder to identify and overcome. A female Saudi journalist, whilst describing the stories covered by fellow female journalists said "The government never stopped us. It's us. The barrier is inside the women." and that can apply to all warps of life.

[Hamza]

The previous 'proofs' of Islam posted stated that the Qur'an referred
directly to the big bang whereas this one denies such an event ever occurred.
Please just don't talk about is Qur'an referred directly or not !
Scientifically... "AbdulRahman" made it clear for you : Nothingness is the last thing that science can approach.. and he put what scientists "like Einstein" had proved, yet, you failed to
reply until now and still changing topics and accusing Qur'an !

Which one is it?
You claimed that Big Bang is the only proof in those sites, I think aware visitors who know how to make a click by their mouse will know easily that you don't decieve anyone but yourself!
anyway, If Big Bang is the only proof, Can you disprove what AbdulRahman said scientifcally?

So some not very well known scientists
Hey!!.. Not very well known?!! ... I hope you give me some of famous scientists's names, Mr.Intellectual !
One of the participating scientists was Dr.Keith Moore, who have a book named " The developing Human", which was translated to 8 different languages, and is being teached now in different universties allover the World !
anyway I am waiting for a list of famous scientists from you !
It also includes such mind-shattering answers to questions like "Who
created God?" with proofs like "He just exists, in a way that the universe can't."
Simply, any one can't believe in a created god!. If God was created then why to worship him?. i would worship who created him!!!

Evolution is not baseless.

Really amazing :) I think we had studied refuting Evolution scientifically when I was 16 years old !
Is there is a man on the brick of that century believes in Evolution ??
Recent developments in science completely disprove the theory of evolution and
demonstrated that this theory is nothing but an imaginary scenario !
Darwinism Refuted (For Experts):
http://www.harunyahya.com/refuted1.php
The Evolution Deceit (Intermediate):
http://www.harunyahya.com/evolution_specialpreface.php
The Collapse of the Theory of Evolution
in 20 Questions :
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/20questions01.php

I think you don't like articles, so I will give you some movies:
http://www.harunyahya.com/c_refutation_darwinism.php

And this is also a book written by an unbiased scientist:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/RE1/index.asp

check this links also! :
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
http://www.evolutiondocumentary.com/
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/

However.. I want to know: Had you studied BIOLOGY before, or still take your knowledge from listening to ignorants?!!

[sketchyjoe]

Please just don't talk about is Qur'an referred directly or not !
Scientifically... "AbdulRahman" made it clear for you : Nothingness is the last thing that science can approach.. and he put what scientists "like Einstein" had proved, yet, you failed to
reply until now and still changing topics and accusing Qur'an !

You claimed that Big Bang is the only proof in those sites, I think aware visitors who know how to make a click by their mouse will know easily that you don't decieve anyone but yourself!
anyway, If Big Bang is the only proof, Can you disprove what AbdulRahman said scientifcally?You misunderstand me, AbdulRahman posted a site that (fallaciously) claimed that the Qur'an proved the Big Bang, while as the site you posted claimed that the Big Bang did not happen, because of what the Qur'an says. I'm saying, you cannot argue both points of view. If the Qur'an is so explicit in it's explanation of the origin of the universe, how have both interpretations appeared? I'll tell you how, because the Qur'an (as every other piece of writing) is utterly subjective.

Hey!!.. Not very well known?!! ... I hope you give me some of famous scientists's names, Mr.Intellectual !
One of the participating scientists was Dr.Keith Moore, who have a book named " The developing Human", which was translated to 8 different languages, and is being teached now in different universties allover the World !
anyway I am waiting for a list of famous scientists from you !
Good for him. However, I believe all academics publish books (it is their job) and many are used for teaching. I have many Professors and lecturers who are world experts in their field, doesn't make them famous. Maybe Keith is a world expert, maybe not. He's probably just a scientist with an open mind interpreting cherry-picked and questionably translated quotes in the way which he is expected to.
Simply, any one can't believe in a created god!. If God was created then why to worship him?. i would worship who created him!!!So main point refuting just about the main line of atheist argument is "Because I say so." That's fine if you're justifying your own beliefs to yourself, but it won't convince anyone else.

Really amazing :) I think we had studied refuting Evolution scientifically when I was 16 years old !
Is there is a man on the brick of that century believes in Evolution ??
Recent developments in science completely disprove the theory of evolution and
demonstrated that this theory is nothing but an imaginary scenario !
Darwinism Refuted (For Experts):
http://www.harunyahya.com/refuted1.php
The Evolution Deceit (Intermediate):
http://www.harunyahya.com/evolution_specialpreface.php
The Collapse of the Theory of Evolution
in 20 Questions :
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/20questions01.php

I think you don't like articles, so I will give you some movies:
http://www.harunyahya.com/c_refutation_darwinism.php

And this is also a book written by an unbiased scientist:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/RE1/index.asp

check this links also! :
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/
http://www.evolutiond0cumentary.com/
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/

However.. I want to know: Had you studied BIOLOGY before, or still take your knowledge from listening to ignorants?!!Those articles were amazingly entertaining. Any article written by someone who has an established position before they begin to look at the evidence, as the people who wrote those books had, is not writing a scientific book. Their so-called proof of the lack of evolution? Probability. If something is improbable, it does not mean it is impossible.

And the 'non-bias' article did not have a strongly Islamic bias, merely a strongly christian one.

The thing I really do not get about religion is, if you know, not believe, KNOW, that there is a god and that you are right (and you seem to do) then why should you ever need to attempt to prove otherwise? Why should you have to refute the theory of evolution, if you know it is wrong as it contradicts the book that you KNOW is right? Why should you provide questionable quotes that 'proof' the Qur'an explains scientific knowledge? Surely, if you know in your heart, that you are right you do not need to do this. Unless, of course, you're not sure and you're just as uncertain as anyone else, so whenever someone comes up with something that challenges your religion you counter it by retroactively imposing scientific meaning on subjective quotes from hundreds of years ago. If you want me to believe in your religion, maybe you could start by showing me that you believe in it yourself.



As it is, I do not refute the notion of there being a god, I refute the way that Islamic society and the veil degrades women (the main discussion point in this thread, unanswered by you), I refute any dogma that does not make sense to me.

[Hamza]

You misunderstand me, AbdulRahman posted a site that (fallaciously) claimed that the Qur'an proved the Big Bang, while as the site you posted claimed that the Big Bang did not happen, because of what the Qur'an says. I'm saying, you cannot argue both points of view. If the Qur'an is so explicit in it's explanation of the origin of the universe, how have both interpretations appeared? I'll tell you how, because the Qur'an (as every other piece of writing) is utterly subjective.
Hey man !! Where that site denied Big Bang ?????
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/allah/proof.htm
I hope you give me a quote from it which denied Big Bang !!
( how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?" )
May be you are talking about that part, it said Big Bang had really happenend but a result of chance ! Allah has created it !
The sentence is clear, Be sure, Muslims don't contradict with what science approved scientifically as it never contradicts with Qur'an.

Returning Back to our question: Can you disprove what AbdulRahman said scientifcally?

[sketchyjoe]

Hey man !! Where that site denied Big Bang ?????
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/allah/proof.htm
I hope you give me a quote from it which denied Big Bang !!
( how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?" )
May be you are talking about that part, it said Big Bang had really happenend but a result of chance ! Allah has created it !
The sentence is clear, Be sure, Muslims don't contradict with what science approved scientifically as it never contradicts with Qur'an.

Returning Back to our question: Can you disprove what AbdulRahman said scientifcally?I am talking about that quote and that quote does not say the big bang happened, maybe you're not too good at reading comprehension but that sentence does not say that the universe cannot have been created by some unco-ordinated or random big bang, it questions that it could have been created by any sort of big bang at all, that's disagreeing with, or at least challenging, science and what was stated in the previous articles.

All AbdulRahman did was state science and put God into anywhere there was a gap and then provide subjective quotes that apparently proved that Muhammed understand the big bang if interpreted in a certain way.


I'll repost this, because in your woefully pitiful attempt to argue one point, you seemed to miss all the others.

The thing I really do not get about religion is, if you know, not believe, KNOW, that there is a god and that you are right (and you seem to do) then why should you ever need to attempt to prove otherwise? Why should you have to refute the theory of evolution, if you know it is wrong as it contradicts the book that you KNOW is right? Why should you provide questionable quotes that 'proof' the Qur'an explains scientific knowledge? Surely, if you know in your heart, that you are right you do not need to do this. Unless, of course, you're not sure and you're just as uncertain as anyone else, so whenever someone comes up with something that challenges your religion you counter it by retroactively imposing scientific meaning on subjective quotes from hundreds of years ago. If you want me to believe in your religion, maybe you could start by showing me that you believe in it yourself.

As it is, I do not refute the notion of there being a god, I refute the way that Islamic society and the veil degrades women (the main discussion point in this thread, unanswered by you), I refute any dogma that does not make sense to me.

[Furball]

Okay, first of all i think this is totally meaningless for the following reasons...
1. These are God's words so no matter how long you debate you can't prove them wrong no matter what. isn't he the one who so delicately made this universe so we can live? Look at water for example, it doesn't become denser as a solid like all other liquids so fish can live in winter, so WE can live. you can't disprove god.

2. This is a religion, you can chose to follow it or not follow it. In the end, whether you do or don't, it's not going to do me any harm, but just as you say freedom of speech and freedom of thinking, that means i think the way i want 2 and you should respect my way of thinking, not necessarily agree, and the same applies for me.

However, if you DO insist on debating then i say that you should look around you for a moment and thank God for all that you're in.

Another thing, you're criticizing the behaviour of muslims and putting it under the name of Islam. If you want to talk about Islam, you go and read about it and talk based on that. No single society abides by all the same rules and behaviors. Just like anywhere in the world in any religion there are murderers and theives etc. doesn't meant the whole country or race is bad. Yet people only tend to look at the bad side of things. How about going to a mosque and see how people will treat you there? Yes, there are extremists, but there are other people who can see the big picture.

About the veil, or 'hijab' as we call it, i'm wearing it. And it's not at all opressing me. think of it this way, if you had a delicate and precious jewel, how would you treat it? would you leave it lying around under your bed for example? no, you'd take extra-special care of it. it's the same way Islam treats women. in all aspects women are treated with extreme respect, equality and BEYOND. Communication and relationships are limited, but not to a bad extent. it's to a level where a guy and a girl can talk and know each other without doing anything wrong.

Islam has many rules that people think are unfair at first glance, but when you look into these rules WITH AN OPEN MIND AND HEART you will see the long term effects and benefits of these rules. That's why we trust Allah and we abide by his rules.

[m_gamil]

salamo alekom

[m_gamil]

how are you all

[m_gamil]

salamo alekom ya Abdul Rahman
I'm a new friend

[sketchyjoe]

Okay, first of all i think this is totally meaningless for the following reasons...
1. These are God's words so no matter how long you debate you can't prove them wrong no matter what. isn't he the one who so delicately made this universe so we can live? Look at water for example, it doesn't become denser as a solid like all other liquids so fish can live in winter, so WE can live. you can't disprove god.You're not offering any serious attempt at proving god's existence, just taking it for a given. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of god.2. This is a religion, you can chose to follow it or not follow it. In the end, whether you do or don't, it's not going to do me any harm, but just as you say freedom of speech and freedom of thinking, that means i think the way i want 2 and you should respect my way of thinking, not necessarily agree, and the same applies for me.And this argument started, when I expressed my freedom of speech, my freedom to disagree, and suddenly several other people all jumped in attempting to batter me into submission by changing the topic and making phony arguments.

However, if you DO insist on debating then i say that you should look around you for a moment and thank God for all that you're in.Does God exist? The existence of him (or her as the case may be) cannot be proved. Your basing that on your beliefs, not mine.

Another thing, you're criticizing the behaviour of muslims and putting it under the name of Islam. If you want to talk about Islam, you go and read about it and talk based on that. No single society abides by all the same rules and behaviors. Just like anywhere in the world in any religion there are murderers and theives etc. doesn't meant the whole country or race is bad. Yet people only tend to look at the bad side of things. How about going to a mosque and see how people will treat you there? Yes, there are extremists, but there are other people who can see the big picture. I've met a lot of muslims, they're not all nice people, but there's probably the same ratio of twats to decent people as any other group of people. Do you know why people look at the bad side? Because that's what needs to be changed. In a society or state drawing laws and traditions from Islam, of course it's going to be judged on it's oppressive nature, everyone is judged by their worst aspects, it's the way of the world. And in my opinion, any positive benefits that can come of joining such a society are offset by the negative effects of doing it.About the veil, or 'hijab' as we call it, i'm wearing it. And it's not at all opressing me. think of it this way, if you had a delicate and precious jewel, how would you treat it? would you leave it lying around under your bed for example? no, you'd take extra-special care of it. it's the same way Islam treats women.The implication that women need to be taken care of and looked after, as if they can't do it themselves, is pretty offensive to a lot of people, and doesn't bode well for any idea of equality.

in all aspects women are treated with extreme respect, equality and BEYOND.If something goes beyond equality, it is not equality. Communication and relationships are limited[/b], but not to a bad extent. it's to a level where a guy and a girl can talk and know each other without doing anything wrong.If they're limited, there is not equality, there is no good extent to the limitation of communication. And the implication that it is impossible for men and women to interact platonically when unsupervised is, yet again, offensive and baseless.

Islam has many rules that people think are unfair at first glance, but when you look into these rules WITH AN OPEN MIND AND HEART you will see the long term effects and benefits of these rules. That's why we trust Allah and we abide by his rules.There is no benefit to segregation. I keep getting accused of having an open mind, when I'm the one who's open to the possibility that there is a god, and open to the possibility that there isn't, whereas you've already made up your mind based on faith, not on science no matter how many times you try to prove your religion with subjective quotes and that's fine. Just don't accuse me of being close-minded.

[ProudOfIt]

Salam Alikom, im new here...wat exactly is this whole debate about???:confused:

[ProudOfIt]

ok...ive just finished reading most of the entriez....and i dont like it at all!!
just to get thingz straight:
im a vailed muslim women!!
im proud of it!!
n i wouldnt change it 4 the world!!

[Furball]

Disagreeing with a cod-science article that provides retroactive 'proofs' for a religion is not ignorance, it's thinking. I do not claim to know the Qur'an better than you. I have tried to read it, and nothing I read in any way suggested that it was anymore than a book.



Ignorant about the Qur'an, probably. Ignorant about Islam today, no, and that's the issue which is in question here. I didn't say anything about any of the songs which are just retellings of Quranic stories. I objected to the song which was sung from a women's point of view about how great being segregated was, the only song which was about current Muslim societies.
Because you're endorsing the notion that women should cover up, which is not about the Qur'an or 'pure' Islam, that's about women today.My mum didn't take my dad's name. There is still a gender pay-gap however it is decreasing, and the gender pay gap is obvious because of the amount of women in employment. You seem to be suggesting here that as women are likely to be paid less that they shouldn't go into work at all. Isn't it better than to try to change things than to accept them and give up?

And I suppose that does not happen in Islamic society? A major Saudi newspaper recently admitted to a "culture of sexual harassment" in Saudi Arabia. In a society where women can be stoned to death for falling pregnant out of wedlock, and where the myth that men cannot control their sexual urges so women must cover up in order to do it for them, they are dar less likely to report any rape for fear of being blamed themselves. What's more, the Qur'an permits rape of one's spouse in 2:223 "Your wives are a tilth (tilled earth) for you, so go into your tilth when you like"
Ever heard of the separation of church and state? And anyway, it's not modest, it's a barrier between them and the world that instills shame over their body and their sex and makes them

I'm glad to see you're still using current examples.

You just stated lots of facts that I already knew. Why are you assuming I'm pro-US, just because I'm against Iran and Saudi Arabia? That's the sort of with us or against us mentality that is used by the people like the US government to justify unjust wars. Is that the sort of people you want to compare yourself to by using that reasoning?

Believe in god if you want, believe in the Qur'an if you want. However, I started disagreeing with you because you're promoting the headscarf and by extension, the veil. You're imposing your will on others, you're segregating men and women and you're claiming to respect women but you're not claiming that they are equal. That's why I disagree with you.

We're not imposing our wills on others, we didn't say you have to embrace Islam. If you like it, you're very welcome. If you dont, fine. Just dnt' start insulting it. (In case you didn't notice: saying the Qur'an is "a long, boring, badly written book with stories that might be true and some that are definitely false" is an insult)

[Furball]

You may have chosen that way of life, it doesn't mean everyone does.

Just a little question: did anyone FORCE you to become a muslim?
If not, then you do have the right to debate with us, by all means, as in WHY, HOW etc. but not saying it's wrong or insulting it. If you don't want to embrace Islam, speak for yourself, and DON'T! No1's forcing you.

[Furball]

[QUOTE=sketchyjoe]The majority where?

You're really poking your nose into stuff I think you have NOTHING to do with, where are you from anyways? ARE YOU A WOMAN? according to ur nickname i don't think so.

[Furball]

You said you wouldn't believe that God existed until you saw him in front of you, right?

Well, what if i say that i won't believe that you have a brain until i see it in front of me? (no offense).

i know you have a brain because i see it's effects. I know it's cold because i FEEL it, i can't see the cold, i just see it's effects. So you don't see everything that exists.

[Furball]

whereas you've already made up your mind based on faith, not on science no matter how many times you try to prove your religion with subjective quotes and that's fine. Just don't accuse me of being close-minded.[/QUOTE]

From my point of view, I'd rather take what i have. Faith comes from your heart and religion doesn't change, while science is changing all the time. AND IN THE END NOTHING WILL DISAGREE WITH ANYTHING WRITTEN IN THE QUR'AN. if you look VERY closely, it's more than just a book. AND I DARE YOU TO BRING ME ONE SCIENTIFIC FACT THAT DISAGREES WITH THE QUR'AN.

[Rise Me Up]

[/COLOR]

We're not imposing our wills on others, we didn't say you have to embrace Islam. If you like it, you're very welcome. If you dont, fine. Just dnt' start insulting it. (In case you didn't notice: saying the Qur'an is "a long, boring, badly written book with stories that might be true and some that are definitely false" is an insult)

See, I think the problem here, is that Islam sucks. Jihad on your own time buddy.

[sketchyjoe]

We're not imposing our wills on others, we didn't say you have to embrace Islam. If you like it, you're very welcome. If you dont, fine. Just dnt' start insulting it. (In case you didn't notice: saying the Qur'an is "a long, boring, badly written book with stories that might be true and some that are definitely false" is an insult)That's not an insult, that's my opinion based on my attempt to read the Qur'an.Just a little question: did anyone FORCE you to become a muslim?
If not, then you do have the right to debate with us, by all means, as in WHY, HOW etc. but not saying it's wrong or insulting it. If you don't want to embrace Islam, speak for yourself, and DON'T! No1's forcing you.So I'm allowed to ask you why you believe and how you believe but I can't say that I think you're wrong. That's not a debate. That's an interview. I know no-one's forcing me, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't object to it.You're really poking your nose into stuff I think you have NOTHING to do with, where are you from anyways? ARE YOU A WOMAN? according to ur nickname i don't think so.How is that 'poking my nose in'? I'm asking for empirical evidence. I'm not a woman. Does that make any difference? It doesn't mean I can't have concern for someone who isn't the same as me. What's more, the veil is insulting to me as a man as it implies that I'm some kind of animal who'll go mad if I see a woman's exposed hair. I live in the UK.You said you wouldn't believe that God existed until you saw him in front of you, right?

Well, what if i say that i won't believe that you have a brain until i see it in front of me? (no offense).

i know you have a brain because i see it's effects. I know it's cold because i FEEL it, i can't see the cold, i just see it's effects. So you don't see everything that exists.Yes, but where are the 'effects' of God? Where are the things which could've only been done by God?

[ProudOfIt]

why do you ditest jihad, because were standing up for what we believe in??
and if you really cant see all gods effects, then im seriously thinking your blind!! were do you think everything came from?? if you have attempted reading the quran you would have understood everything Allah has done for us!! everything in the Quran is so TRU!! and you cant deny it!! stuff we have just discovered has been in the Quran for centuries!! this just proves you havnt even bothered yourself trying to understand the quran!!

[sketchyjoe]

why do you ditest jihad, because were standing up for what we believe in??
and if you really cant see all gods effects, then im seriously thinking your blind!! were do you think everything came from?? if you have attempted reading the quran you would have understood everything Allah has done for us!! everything in the Quran is so TRU!! and you cant deny it!! stuff we have just discovered has been in the Quran for centuries!! this just proves you havnt even bothered yourself trying to understand the quran!!
Why do I detest Jihad? I detest murder, no matter who's name it's in. You're an idiot. I understand the Qur'an, a few little stories to make people ignore the possibility that maybe we're alone in the universe, and that freedom doesn't have a purpose. Not everyone needs to be led. The world is beautiful, it doesn't mean it was designed.

I'm bored of this. I started arguing with one person who seemingly invited all their friends to make the same worthless points over and over again only answering one in five of mine and never with any conviction.


God's not dead, but you're killing him.