Underpowering Cabs?

[bassistuvdoom731]

What are the disadvantages of underpowering cabinets? Like what are the negative effects on the cabinet, if there are any at all. I have cabs in mind for my new rig, but they have a larger rms wattage then the head would put out.

While I'm at it, I might as well ask for some reccomendations as well. I need two 8 ohm cabs with at least 600 watts RMS handling, Preferably a 4x10 and a 2x12. Try to keep the total price of the 2 cabs below $1000 please(low as possible is nice too!).

Its greatly appreciated :thumb: :wave: .

[Sade]

Clipping, clipping, and....more clipping.

Underpowering a cabinet will cause you to lose significant amounts of headroom, depending on how much you're actually underpowering. This causes you to lose volume, which causes you to turn up, which causes clipping, etc, etc.

[bassistuvdoom731]

Awww, I was hoping for a "its not really that much of a problem" , but i guess I got the short end of the stick this time.

So I guess Im relying on reccomendations then... damn.

[LewsTherin]

Clipping, clipping, and....more clipping.

Underpowering a cabinet will cause you to lose significant amounts of headroom, depending on how much you're actually underpowering. This causes you to lose volume, which causes you to turn up, which causes clipping, etc, etc.

Depends on what we're talking about.

What youre talking about Sade is simply not having enough power. Doesnt really have much to do with the cab, outside of the fact that a more efficient cab would help. In a case like that, the fact of the matter is that no matter what cab youre hooked up to, not enough clean power is not enough clean power.



Sending less than the cabs rating to it, however, is fine. Does absolutely nothing to the cab, except maybe put less wear and tear on the cones than matching its rating. Were this not true, you could only ever play at one volume, since turning the volume down sends less wattage to the speaker.

[Son of Magni]

IMHO, the real danger in using a cab with higher rating than the head is that you might think that no matter how much it clips or distorts you can't hurt the speakers. Clipped signals will damage your speakers no matter how big or small the amp is.

So if you run a 50 watt head into a 400 watt cab, and keep it clean, you'll be fine. But many people will just keep turning it louder, even though it sounds like crap, and end up blowing speakers.

Edit:
And, um, what LewsTherin said...

[Sade]

The cab isn't what suffers directly. The head will clip because the cab is rater higher than the head. This clipping will in turn, damage the cab. It doesn't matter how you look at it, underpowering a cab will cause, or has a high potential to cause clipping.

If you're just not turning up enough to experience any clipping, then it's pretty pointless to have the cab in the first place.

[Sade]

IMHO, the real danger in using a cab with higher rating than the head is that you might think that no matter how much it clips or distorts you can't hurt the speakers. Clipped signals will damage your speakers no matter how big or small the amp is.

So if you run a 50 watt head into a 400 watt cab, and keep it clean, you'll be fine. But many people will just keep turning it louder, even though it sounds like crap, and end up blowing speakers.

There's another part of the vicious cycle of underpowering.

[Son of Magni]

The cab isn't what suffers directly. The head will clip because the cab is rater higher than the head...
This is a common misconception. The head cannot tell what the power capability of the speaker is. Only the load (measure in ohms).

[LewsTherin]

This is a common misconception. The head cannot tell what the power capability of the speaker is. Only the load (measure in ohms).


I was just about to say that, actually.

Like I said before, the cab has nothing to do with underpowering, outside of the fact that with a higher efficiency cab could do more with less power. Problems with DC clipping from your poweramp means its time for a more powerful poweramp.

[Sade]

This is a common misconception. The head cannot tell what the power capability of the speaker is. Only the load (measure in ohms).

Wait, we wern't talking about consciously aware pieces of machinery, here?

It's a moot-point. If the head has a lower wattage than the rating of the cab, chances are there's going to be clipping at high volumes. That's the point, all technicality aside.

[Sade]

I was just about to say that, actually.

Like I said before, the cab has nothing to do with underpowering, outside of the fact that with a higher efficiency cab could do more with less power. Problems with DC clipping from your poweramp means its time for a more powerful poweramp.

Exactly.

Which would solve the "underpowering" issue and the "clipping" issue.

[LewsTherin]

Wait, we wern't talking about consciously aware pieces of machinery, here?

It's a moot-point. If the head has a lower wattage than the rating of the cab, chances are there's going to be clipping at high volumes. That's the point, all technicality aside.


And chances are, if you hook one of those 5,000W QSC poweramps up to a Marshall 1960A cab loaded with Vintage 30s, and crank it up all the way, youll still have poweramp clipping.

The cab has nothing to do with it.

[Sade]

And chances are, if you hook one of those 5,000W QSC poweramps up to a Marshall 1960A cab loaded with Vintage 30s, and crank it up all the way, youll still have poweramp clipping.

The cab has nothing to do with it.

Right. The lack of power is the problem. This thread is about cabs, not power amps. I'm simply reiterating a point that if you don't have enough power where you have to constantly turn up to be heard, then get more. Otherwise, be ready for some clipping.

Overpowering a cab, however; will leave you lots of headroom, and more volume. (depending of course on how much power you actually have, and considering the fact that more power does not necessarily mean more volume.) However, you also run the risk of damaging your speakers this way, as well.

Either way, more power=not bad.

[Son of Magni]

Wait, we wern't talking about consciously aware pieces of machinery, here?...
Lol, yeah I guess I worded that a little oddly. I mean that from the perspective of the amp the power rating of the speaker makes no difference. The amp "sees" the same load regardless of the speaker's power handling capability.

Edit:
And if you turn it up enough to blow the speaker, it also would blow any lower powered speaker too...

[LewsTherin]

Right. The lack of power is the problem. This thread is about cabs, not power amps. I'm simply reiterating a point that if you don't have enough power where you have to constantly turn up to be heard, then get more. Otherwise, be ready for some clipping.

Overpowering a cab, however; will leave you lots of headroom, and more volume. (depending of course on how much power you actually have, and considering the fact that more power does not necessarily mean more volume.) However, you also run the risk of damaging your speakers this way, as well.

Either way, more power=not bad.

I know this thread is about cabs. But you, not I, made it about poweramp power.


And your right, there is no such thing as too much clean power. Unless, of course, youre a blues guitarist.

[Sade]

Lol, yeah I guess I worded that a little oddly. I mean that from the perspective of the amp the power rating of the speaker makes no difference. The amp "sees" the same load regardless of the speaker's power handling capability.

I realize this. I was simply using the cab as a way for the threadstarter to understand the need for headroom and sufficient wattage.

You're basically argueing the same point as I am.

[LewsTherin]

And if you turn it up enough to blow the speaker, it also would blow any lower powered speaker too...


sssh, old man. thats besides the point. besides, he didnt seem to notice....:thumb:

[LewsTherin]

I realize this. I was simply using the cab as a way for the threadstarter to understand the need for headroom and sufficient wattage.

You're basically argueing the same point as I am.


True, we're mostly just arguing about the way you put your point forward. You made it sound like headroom is a function of cab power handling, which its not.

[Sade]

I know this thread is about cabs. But you, not I, made it about poweramp power.


And your right, there is no such thing as too much clean power. Unless, of course, youre a blues guitarist.

I suppose you're right. :lol:

That's the point I so often try to make. Get more power. I realize completely the cab's power rating capacity isn't registered by the power amp section of any amplifier. That's pretty much a given. However, it's never good to have to turn up constantly to 9/10 to be heard, which is so often the case when the cab's power rating isn't met by the poweramp.

Again, not saying that the cab's power rating has anything to actually do with the poweramp, but rather simply "shows" whoever we're talking about that they need more power.

[bassistuvdoom731]

So...reccomendations?

The head gives out
600W @ 8 ohms
800W @ 4 ohms
600W @ 2 ohms

Im looking for 8 ohm cabs, preferably 4x10 and 2x12, as I said before.

[LewsTherin]

I suppose you're right. :lol:

That's the point I so often try to make. Get more power. I realize completely the cab's power rating capacity isn't registered by the power amp section of any amplifier. That's pretty much a given. However, it's never good to have to turn up constantly to 9/10 to be heard, which is so often the case when the cab's power rating isn't met by the poweramp.


Right. I was at a show friday, and for one band that was playing the limiter LED on the bassists amp was on about 3/4 of the time. I cringed every time I saw it go off.

So, moral of this story:

You can't underpower a cab. In fact, speakers like not getting that much wattage. It makes the little buggers happy.

Anyway, you can never have enough clean amplifier power. More power = teh secks. You can always turn it down, but the knob does only go up to 10*. And it shouldnt go past 6 or 7, really.



*unless its a Fender, a lot of those go up to 12 for some reason

[Sade]

So...reccomendations?

The head gives out
600W @ 8 ohms
800W @ 4 ohms
600W @ 2 ohms

Im looking for 8 ohm cabs, preferably 4x10 and 2x12, as I said before.

800W @ 4 ohms and 600 @ 2? That's...interesting.

[LewsTherin]

So...reccomendations?

The head gives out
600W @ 8 ohms
800W @ 4 ohms
600W @ 2 ohms

Im looking for 8 ohm cabs, preferably 4x10 and 2x12, as I said before.


Avatar.

[Sade]

Right. I was at a show friday, and for one band that was playing the limiter LED on the bassists amp was on about 3/4 of the time. I cringed every time I saw it go off.

So, moral of this story:

You can't underpower a cab. In fact, speakers like not getting that much wattage. It makes the little buggers happy.

Anyway, you can never have enough clean amplifier power. More power = teh secks. You can always turn it down, but the knob does only go up to 10. And it shouldnt go past 6 or 7, really.

Thank you for summarizing the point I believe three people attempted to make in different ways. Bahaha.

[LewsTherin]

800W @ 4 ohms and 600 @ 2? That's...interesting.

perhaps he missed a digit? because that would be a marvel of modern technology :lol:

[LewsTherin]

Thank you for summarizing the point I believe three people attempted to make in different ways. Bahaha.


No problem.

[Sade]

Avatar.

Indeed.

If you're putting out 800 watts at 4 ohms through a couple of 4x10s, you won't have much trouble being heard.

Avatar is fine.

[bassistuvdoom731]

800W @ 4 ohms and 600 @ 2? That's...interesting.

Thats what I said...And lews, I was considering avatar, but the cabs i found were all too powerful, thus this thread.:)

[LewsTherin]

Thats what I said...And lews, I was considering avatar, but the cabs i found were all too powerful, thus this thread.:)


Like we all finally got around to saying, it won't be a problem. Avatars are pretty efficient, and with that poweramp, you should be all set on volume.

[Sade]

Thats what I said...And lews, I was considering avatar, but the cabs i found were all too powerful, thus this thread.:)

Realize that cabs don't actually have any power at all. It's simply a rating of how much they "generally" can handle. It's often a bunch of crap, anyways. Plus, the amp doesn't really care about the cab's rating, as was mentioned earlier.

Avatar is fine.

[Son of Magni]

I realize this. I was simply using the cab as a way for the threadstarter to understand the need for headroom and sufficient wattage.

You're basically argueing the same point as I am.
Yeah, I guess I'm just trying to make the point that it's really more psychological than most people think.

Use your head = good
Blow things up = bad

And usually you can tell the difference if you just listen :thumb:

Anyways, back to the topic, I would definately consider an Eden 2x10 front ported cab for anyone that thinks they want a 4x10. They are loud!

[bassistuvdoom731]

OK, thanks.

[Sade]

Schroeder gets my vote for loudest little bastards ever.

[LewsTherin]

Schroeder gets my vote for loudest little bastards ever.


Crate gets my vote for least efficient muther****ers ever.



/is mad/despressed that he has a Crate amp

[bassistuvdoom731]

Avatar, here I come.

Thanks alot guys :wave:

[jollygiantchris]

i just bought a schroeder 4x10 and its LOUD AS HELL and im only running it off a 400 watt at 4ohm head and the cab is rated @ 1400 watts :o

like the other guy said earlier though youre not supposed 2 turn your power section up too high or you will experience clipping and unwanted compression at least there was an article in bass player that said that a month or 2 ago :o

[edgebass5]

Its staggering to see how often this term gets misused....... quite unbelievable really, considering how often it comes up.

Underpowering a cab? Not really possible. Underpowering has virtually nothing to do with your cabs (directly at least). Its all about the power amp (or power amp section of a head) when you talk about underpowering.

I realize that's already been covered (thank you Sade), but it needed to be said at least once more.

[FruscianteFan08]

Woah... brain overload! :smoke: :confused:
Could one of you guys plz explain what you're sayin about underpowering a cab (plz make it as concise as possible, b/c I'm lookin into buyin a GK backline 600 head with the same model cabs at 4x10 & 1x15)

[Son of Magni]

just read the first page of this thread...

[bassistuvdoom731]

So SoM, if im understanding this correctly, the question shouldn't be, "how much can this cab handle?", but instead "How efficient is it?"

[FruscianteFan08]

Well, I still can't make heads or tails out of this, so just tell me whether this would be a good idea or not:

GK Backline 600 head (300 watts at 4 ohms)
GK Backline 410 cab (400 watts at 8 ohms)
GK Backline 115 cab (200 watts at 8 ohms)

[thelowsoundofbass]

So SoM, if im understanding this correctly, the question shouldn't be, "how much can this cab handle?", but instead "How efficient is it?"

well since most bass cabs are rated as the RMS rating you don't have to worry about pushing too much power through them when you push 800w though a cab that is rated at 600w. this is because the RMS rating is usually half that of the peak rating. thats not to say that running your cab at peak is a good thing to do, the RMS (root mean squared) rating is the rating at which a spaeker (or in this case a cab) will run most efficintly at. so when a cab is rated at 600w, it will be at its most efficient when running with 600w of power. anything over that and the speaker coil will start to heat up (very slowly) and if you push double the power through the cab (the peak rating) you are starting to run the risk that you will blow the speaker.

lowsound

[thelowsoundofbass]

Well, I still can't make heads or tails out of this, so just tell me whether this would be a good idea or not:

GK Backline 600 head (300 watts at 4 ohms)
GK Backline 410 cab (400 watts at 8 ohms)
GK Backline 115 cab (200 watts at 8 ohms)

it would be fine, just don't crank the head. but IMO if you are running that many speakers it would be a better idea to save your pennies and get a bigger head. maybe buy the 4x10 and use the extra money and get the GK backline 1000 or something else like it

lowsound

[TheBassStylee]

Crate gets my vote for least efficient muther****ers ever.



/is mad/despressed that he has a Crate amp
*laughs, then realizes he has also bought a crate amp and is extremely displeased*

[Son of Magni]

So SoM, if im understanding this correctly, the question shouldn't be, "how much can this cab handle?", but instead "How efficient is it?"
Personally I think the particular sound of the cab is more important than the efficiency. In other words, a loud cab that you don't like the sound of isn't much fun. When I mentioned the Eden cab I was thinking more about the fact that a high-end 2x10 can be as loud and is more portable than a mid-priced 4x10.

Well, I still can't make heads or tails out of this, so just tell me whether this would be a good idea or not:

GK Backline 600 head (300 watts at 4 ohms)
GK Backline 410 cab (400 watts at 8 ohms)
GK Backline 115 cab (200 watts at 8 ohms)
Well, your 1x15 is half the power of your 4x10. I'd rather see them at near the same rating.

[TheBassStylee]

ok.. i have a question about the rig im planning to get in a within a year or so if i start gigging and save enough.. i am a total noob at amps and i wanted to know if this is a possible/good combo and if it is too much power for what i need, basic volume, not too loud, but enough if i need it loud and a solid tone. (i love the ampeg svt series :D)

Head: Ampeg SVT-5 PRO........... 500w x 2 @ 2ohms
Cab1: Ampeg SVT-410 HLF ....... 500w @ 4ohms
Cab2: Ampeg SVT-18 ................ 500w @ 4ohms

(id want it all used cause im poor :lol:)

/sorry for hijack

> mike

[Son of Magni]

ok.. i have a question about the rig im planning to get in a within a year or so if i start gigging and save enough.. i am a total noob at amps and i wanted to know if this is a possible/good combo and if it is too much power for what i need, basic volume, not too loud, but enough if i need it loud and a solid tone. (i love the ampeg svt series :D)

Head: Ampeg SVT-5 PRO........... 500w x 2 @ 2ohms
Cab1: Ampeg SVT-410 HLF ....... 500w @ 4ohms
Cab2: Ampeg SVT-18 ................ 500w @ 4ohms

(id want it all used cause im poor :lol:)

/sorry for hijack

> mike
I'd say that would be an a$$ kicking stack :)

[gronk]

Ok...Question:

Hypothetically, is it best to get an amp and cabinet that run at the same wattage and ohmage (is that a word?)?

So for example, an amp that runs at 500W RMS and 4 ohms, and a cabinet that can handle 500W RMS and at 4 ohms?

[thelowsoundofbass]

Ok...Question:

Hypothetically, is it best to get an amp and cabinet that run at the same wattage and ohmage (is that a word?)?

So for example, an amp that runs at 500W RMS and 4 ohms, and a cabinet that can handle 500W RMS and at 4 ohms?

yes, then it would be at the highest efficiently that is possable for both of them. but you would want to have headroom so you wouldn't be pushing your head to run it at 600w. what we need it a dial where you can choose the wattage that you are running to the cab

lowsound

[gronk]

yes, then it would be at the highest efficiently that is possable for both of them. but you would want to have headroom so you wouldn't be pushing your head to run it at 600w. what we need it a dial where you can choose the wattage that you are running to the cab

lowsound


Ok, so a little bit of headroom (I assume this means more power) is ok, but not an excessive amount?

[thelowsoundofbass]

Ok, so a little bit of headroom (I assume this means more power) is ok, but not an excessive amount?

headroom=power, and just don't pump out double what the RMS rating is and you will be fine inregared to blowing speakers. it will sound ****ty before it ever blows

lowsound

[gronk]

headroom=power, and just don't pump out double what the RMS rating is and you will be fine inregared to blowing speakers. it will sound ****ty before it ever blows

lowsound

Awesome. Cause next on my list of things to get (after a new bass) will be a cabinet and amp. Although this probably won't be for a year or 2, seeing as I have expensive taste. I was looking at a Mesa/Boogie cabinet (maybe the 6x10 or the "1000") and pairing it up with an Ampeg head (possibly the SVT-6PRO).

Very expensive indeed. However I'm not even sure if these would work together that well.

[WHoRRID]

Crate gets my vote for least efficient muther****ers ever.



/is mad/despressed that he has a Crate amp

tis true :upset: i have 1 as well. its a shame too i love the preamp in my combo. tone i get is SCHWEEET. its so much louder when i use my peavey 2x10.(u can unplug the crate speaker) but i cant rlly complain at the price i got it.