A scientific approach to the bass drum

[crazyguy832]

Many is a time that someone questions why they should take the beater off the head of the bass drum. Many (good :rolleyes: ) reasons don't satisfy them, so I've decided to explain this in a more scientific way.

Now, if you bounce the beater off the head, you're going to generate more power. Why? Let's look at the math.

p=mv

Where p = momentum, m = mass, and v = velocity. I, or impulse, is equal to the momentum. Let's allow the force to be F and time = t.

So...

Ft=I=p=mv
Ft=mv
F=mv/t

What does this mean? It means that the amount of force (power) generated by a kick equals the mass (beater) times the velocity divided by time (how long the beater is in contact with the head).

Now, let's say the velocity (power) generated when you use the kick pedal is 10 (for simplicity's sake). Also, I don't know how heavy a beater is (I searched but found nothing), so let's assume that it's mass is 10 as well. Finally, let's say that on an average kick, the beater stays on the head 0.25 seconds. Therefore...

F=(10)(10)/0.25 = 400

That's a lot of force. But, now, let's say the beater remains on the head for 1 full second.

F=(10)(10)/1 = 100

That's a quarter of as much power.

Now, I know that this doesn't work totally with drums and whatnot, but the basics of it show that you're going to get a lot more volume and projection by taking the beater off the head.

[Josiah]

"..and Jesus said 'Blessed are the meek.'

[Double Bass Jim]

The less you know the better you live.

Sometimes knowing too much can ruin everything haha.

[MeaninglessPhoto]

"..and Jesus said 'Blessed are the meek.'
hahaha and Neil Peart said: "and the meek shall inherit the earth"

[Hunted By a Freak]

Learn to play both bouncing off the head and burying the beater.

[crazyguy832]

Hey, I'm just sharing what I know.

[spirit]

You know, if you're going to use physics to try and prove something, at least use correct physics.

[Panopticon]

that may all be true for heel down players...but if you play heel up...you would run out of energy MUCH faster. It's much easier to keep your foot on the pedal then it is to keep it suspended in the air.

[Killjoy]

hey no fair i left my calculator at home :upset: :D

[DuckinFutch8]

that may all be true for heel down players...but if you play heel up...you would run out of energy MUCH faster. It's much easier to keep your foot on the pedal then it is to keep it suspended in the air.

Yea, when I started messing around with heel-up, I was like "this is impossible", because I din't bury the beater, and I had a hard time elevateing my leg for that long...

[crazyguy832]

Tighten your springs.

I keep the beater off just fine heel-up.

And how are these "wrong" physics? I'm confused.

Another way of explaining:

It's commonly known in the martial arts community that punches and kicks hurt more if you "whip" the stroke back. Also, look at Moeller and the free stroke.

[spirit]

And how are these "wrong" physics? I'm confused.

Another way of explaining:

It's commonly known in the martial arts community that punches and kicks hurt more if you "whip" the stroke back. Also, look at Moeller and the free stroke.

First off, I'm not disputing whether or not you're right, as I'm pretty sure you are. However, having had the kind of physics teacher that doesn't let you away with incorrect word usage, I feel the need to point out a couple of errors.

1. Power and velocity are not equivalent values. They can be related through a formula, but are not the same.

2. Nor are force and power equivalent.

3. Impulse is equal to change in momentum. EDIT 2: No, I was right.

I shall however recognise you're attempting to explain this concept to people who perhaps don't have any background in physics. The basics are correct, and it would seem to make sense. Overall, it's a good job.

[crazyguy832]

Ft=I=p=mv

I did NOT state that power = velocity anywhere in my original equation. I also did not state that force = power. Also, force times time = change in momentum from my perspective...

With force = power, I replaced the word force with power just for relevancy's sake.

[spirit]

Ft=I=p=mv

I did NOT state that power = velocity anywhere in my original equation. I also did not state that force = power. Also, force times time = change in momentum from my perspective...

Ok, so I'm bored and I'm nitpicking.

All it is, it that it could be inferred from the sections where you put "power" in brackets next to force and velocity that they are the same. Like I said, I'm nitpicking.

Incidentally, on second look, you were fine on the Impulse bit. My apologies.

[Futuro]

I can do both, I prefer to leave the beater against the head though. I will continue too.

[crazyguy832]

I meant that by saying that the force of the beater is essentially the power you get out of the kick. And I'm still confused about how you see my saying force = velocity.

I mean, I got Ft = mv...

[Futuro]

Reasons why this fails. You would have to measure transient attack, Which isnt in your forumla.

[crazyguy832]

I stated that this doesn't totally work with drums. I was merely stating the idea behind the formula and how it relates to drumming.

[cybersprint]

You know, if you're going to use physics to try and prove something, at least use correct physics.

Yeah, ive read quite a lot of physics, and that isnt perfectly coherent to me

[Futuro]

I stated that this doesn't totally work with drums. I was merely stating the idea behind the formula and how it relates to drumming.
Oh...Good job then...

[crazyguy832]

I... never... bah.

I don't want to defend this stupid thing anymore.

¬_¬

[spirit]

I meant that by saying that the force of the beater is essentially the power you get out of the kick. And I'm still confused about how you see my saying force = velocity.

I mean, I got Ft = mv...

I don't recall saying that you said that force = velocity.

That made no sense.

Perhaps I took the word scientific a little too literally.

[Iscariot]

I leave the beater on the head just because it puts less stress on my ankles (I have arthritis) and I still get decent volume.

Science schmience.

[Futuro]

I... never... bah.

I don't want to defend this stupid thing anymore.

¬_¬
Well you have a good idea. Just needs to be worked on. Refined. :wave:

[crazyguy832]

All I've ever said was this was an idea...

Not once did I say this was a cold, hard fact.

And you can get decent volume leaving the beater on, but the fact of the matter is, experience and science both say that if you take it off you'll get more.

[spirit]

All I've ever said was this was an idea...

Not once did I say this was a cold, hard fact.

And you can get decent volume leaving the beater on, but the fact of the matter is, experience and science both say that if you take it off you'll get more.

Well why didn't you say so?

You did?

Oh....

[crazyguy832]

I suppose I didn't make it clear it was really just a basic idea... but now I am.

[spirit]

I suppose I didn't make it clear it was really just a basic idea... but now I am.

Then all power (lolz, a pun) to you. Make it your Honours study, and prove it experimentally, by playing your drums...

[GooseFilms.net]

Impulse does not equal momentum. Impulse is (delta)momentum, the change in momentum. They are defnitely not the same thing at all. Impulse is to momentum as distance is to velocity.

Secondly, you are wrong. T applies to the time it takes the beater to deccelerate to 0 m/s, not the time it stays on the head. You are arguing that a tighter head (which will cuase faster decelleration) will give you more power. Leaving the beater on the head has nothing to do with this! It probably takes the beater something like .008 seconds to decellerate to 0. How long youleave the beater on the head for does not affect this. Think about it. If i hit the bass drum and left the beater there for an hour, do you think the force with which it struck the bass drum head is decreasing as I sit there? Absolutely not

[White Riot!]

j = −(1 + e) vab1 · n
------------------------------------------------
1⁄ma + 1⁄mb + (rap × n)2 ⁄ Ia + (rbp × n)2 ⁄ Ib

thats the proper equation. As you can see the variables are far too great to make science usefull in this topic.


its obvious that you should bury the beater for a muffled sound and bounce for sustain.

[White Riot!]

j = −(1 + e) vab1 · n
------------------------------------------------
1⁄ma + 1⁄mb + (rap × n)2 ⁄ Ia + (rbp × n)2 ⁄ Ib

thats the proper equation. As you can see the variables are far too great to make science usefull in this topic.


its obvious that you should bury the beater for a muffled sound and bounce for sustain.

[Futuro]

All I've ever said was this was an idea...

Not once did I say this was a cold, hard fact.

And you can get decent volume leaving the beater on, but the fact of the matter is, experience and science both say that if you take it off you'll get more.
Stop acting like im directly attacking you man, I understand what you were trying to say.

[Chrysostom]

Steven Hawking + drum kit = this thread. Not that he could play the kit. Poor guy. :(

[White Riot!]

its obvious that you should bury the beater for a muffled sound and bounce for sustain.

Common Sense Trumps Science:smash:

[spirit]

Common Sense Trumps Science:smash:

Quoting yourself just isn't the done thing, old sport.

[Trev]

Steven Hawking + drum kit = this thread. Not that he could play the kit. Poor guy. :(
What are you talking about he couldn't play the kit? With his gadget chair he's the best one man band in town.

http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/2921/ohyes9tl.jpg

[White Riot!]

lol

[Chrysostom]

What are you talking about he couldn't play the kit? With his gadget chair he's the best one man band in town.

http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/2921/ohyes9tl.jpg

:lol:

[drummer_mp3]

Thats ****ing hilarious.

[crazyguy832]

Well, thanks for pointing out my mistakes goosefilms.

And that Stephen Hawkings pic is awesome... I got to show that to my physics teacher.

[aznriceball]

You know, if you can figure out how much heat energy is gained in both processes I may just ask you to fill in for my part of this week's lab report.

[crazyguy832]

Haha, sorry, no can do.

:p

[aznriceball]

Dangit. Well, I could always read my chem book.

:rolleyes:

[crazyguy832]

Work? Nah, just Spark it!

[Hunted By a Freak]

Hey, I'm just sharing what I know.

Hey, don't mislead people.

[crazyguy832]

The media.

[Hunted By a Freak]

The government

[FockerTheLopper]

hahaha and Neil Peart said: "and the meek shall inherit the earth"
Haha and Chuck Norris said "the meek shall be roundhouse kicked in the head"

[jalel]

Chuck Norris wouldn't waste his time with the meek......

[TTTSNB]

Tighten your springs.

I keep the beater off just fine heel-up.

And how are these "wrong" physics? I'm confused.

Another way of explaining:

It's commonly known in the martial arts community that punches and kicks hurt more if you "whip" the stroke back. Also, look at Moeller and the free stroke.
Maybe sting more, but in terms of actual damage, I think its better to always follow through with hits.

[LittlePound]

Tighten your springs.

I keep the beater off just fine heel-up.

And how are these "wrong" physics? I'm confused.

Another way of explaining:

It's commonly known in the martial arts community that punches and kicks hurt more if you "whip" the stroke back. Also, look at Moeller and the free stroke.

yeha my springsa are tight. I'm not saying i don't bury the beater, i rest my foot lightly on it, not forcing it into the head but keeping it in contact with the head while in between strokes. When i bring my foot up, the tension of the springs is high enough to bring the pedal right up with it so it's there when my foot gets there. I've never noticed any problems. I do think that your "theory" is more applicable to heel down players though

[Hunted By a Freak]

Maybe sting more, but in terms of actual damage, I think its better to always follow through with hits.

Yes

[LittlePound]

yeah, in Tae Kwon Do, they taught that you should always visualize that you're trying to punch through the object, that way you follow completely through with the stroke and don't pull back to early. It hurts a lot more that way, trust me.

[FockerTheLopper]

Chuck Norris wouldn't waste his time with the meek......
Time is no issue to Chuck Norris for two reasons.
1) Time waits for no man. Unless that man is Chuck Norris. This explains why hes the best man.
2) Chuck Norris doesn't carry a watch, he decides what time it is.

They're facts. Read'em and weep.

[jalel]

Touché my friend......touché....

[drummer_mp3]

Doesn't the earth rotate around Chuck Norris?

[jalel]

^Only because he roundhouse kicked the **** out of it:thumb:

[Dextrous]

Tighten your springs.

I keep the beater off just fine heel-up.

And how are these "wrong" physics? I'm confused.

Another way of explaining:

It's commonly known in the martial arts community that punches and kicks hurt more if you "whip" the stroke back. Also, look at Moeller and the free stroke.
WRONG you whip your punches and kicks out and follow throw... the hit should have contact for atleast atleast 1/4 of a second to be sure all the power has transfered threw... after the power or you extend all the way you snap back.

Its not the whip back that hurts but the whip out toward them. You snap back for defense.

[drummer_mp3]

^Only because he roundhouse kicked the **** out of it:thumb:

That could explain that huge *** crater in mexico.

[Chrysostom]

Time is no issue to Chuck Norris for two reasons.
1) Time waits for no man. Unless that man is Chuck Norris. This explains why hes the best man.
2) Chuck Norris doesn't carry a watch, he decides what time it is.


Doesn't the earth rotate around Chuck Norris?

Only because he roundhouse kicked the **** out of it

:lol: :lol: and :lol:

[Btrutt87]

lol at chuck norris, omfg thats so fresh.

keep it coming guys!

[Duncster]

When Neil Armstrong landed on the moon, he saw a sign that said "chuck norris was here"

[Bonham#1!]

hahaha and Neil Peart said: "and the meek shall inherit the earth"

2112 OVERTURE!

[LittlePound]

In his free time chuck norris likes to knit sweaters. By knit we mean kick, and by sweaters we mean babies.

Chuck norris invented black. IN fact, he invented every color in the spectrum...except pink....Tom cruise invented pink.

[Op3r4t0r]

ROFL Why is Tom getting bashed now?

[LoneStarDrummer]

the time the beater rest on the head has absolutely nothing to do with it's power. mv would give you the momentum of the beater, time is merely the time it would take to get to the beater and since velocity is distance divided by time, dividing mv by t makes no sense.

the power generated would be instantanious in which t->0 (the limit as time goes to zero) meaning your taking the force at the instant the beater hits the head, which is simply mv.

trust me on this.

[jalel]

Chuck Norris only masturbates to pictures of Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris lost his virginity before his dad did.

To prove it isn't that big of a deal to beat cancer. Chuck Norris smoked 15 cartons of cigarettes a day for 2 years and aquired 7 different kinds of cancer only to rid them from his body by flexing for 30 minutes. Beat that, Lance Armstrong.

Chuck Norris once lined up to kick the winning field goal of a high school football game. When the football went flat, he persuaded the referees to let him kick the field goal with a 3 month old child. Chuck roundhoused kicked the baby 60 yards through the uprights and then proceeded to bang every girl in the stadium.

Chuck Norris used live ammunition during all shoot-outs. When a director once said he couldn't, he replied, "Of course I can, I'm Chuck Norris," and roundhouse kicked him in the face.

If paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, and scissors beats paper, what beats all 3 at the same time? Answer: Chuck Norris.

Scientists used to believe that diamond was the world's hardest substance. But then they met Chuck Norris, who gave them a roundhouse kick to the face so hard, and with so much heat and pressure, that the scientists turned into artificial Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris invented water.



Yeah.....I have no life......:upset:

[metallas]

Well you forget something.The theory of physics is far away than how phisycs work in real world.As you execute a stroke the spring is getting longer (excuse my english). In theory the springs react the same at all levels of power and distance from the point of naturall position (remember the theory of Hooke which says F=k*dX where F is the Power that returns the spring to the natural position, K is something that is unique is every spring and dx is the distance of the edge of the spring from the position of it's naturall position.
Anyway how can I play hell toe without burring the beater in the head?

[LoneStarDrummer]

the spring has nothing to do with it. the pressure generated by your foot overcomes the spring with ease and the fact that the beater stays on the head is because of your foot not because of the spring. the spring force is negliable in this matter.

on a side note, it's hooke's law not theory. the force of the spring is constant throughout until it reaches a point where it exceeds the yield strength of the metal, causing the spring to stretch beyond repair.