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Pirate Satellite
01-26-2006, 03:18 PM
I know that these threads appear with some frequency, but I'm talking more about the actual philosophy than political points of view. Who were the philosophical predecessors to the movement? What have been the intellectual ramifications of punk rock in the intellectual world?

I was considering writing a paper on this, and though it seems too hard now, I'm still pretty interested in it. The clearest connections to make are to existentialism and nihilism. I also could see some of Kant's theories creeping in to the more intellectual anarchist aspect of punk-- the idea of the categorical imperative would give structure and validity to the proposed lawlessness. Maybe John Locke's theories too, but that seems a little counter-intuitive, because his philosophies laid the groundwork for the American constitution. Of course, John Stuart Mill's liberal theories are also seriously at work with the idea of Negative Liberty.

In terms of how reactionary it is, it seems to be a response to the sort of bureaucracy that Kafka talks about-- that whole boring Suburban thing. Also, it seems a bit Marxist, maybe not in its support of a communist ideal, but certainly in its criticism of the Capitalist lifestyle. Freud's concept of the id and of territorial aggression? Nietzche's dead God? Where did it all come from?

Also, what is the philosophical leanings of punk in itself? It's clear what the punk rock aesthetic is, but what is real to a punk rocker? What is morally right? What is of value? Who are the flagbearers of the punk rock philosophy?

Just something I was thinking about. If there have been too many threads like this, I guess you could close this guy.

Brain Toad
01-26-2006, 03:20 PM
Sid Vicious was a philospher greater than Socrates.

AIRIC
01-26-2006, 03:20 PM
I don't even know how to answer this. I'm going to be interested to read what people have to say, though.

coheneran
01-26-2006, 03:22 PM
I think the punk philosophy is individualism. About being yourself and not conforming under pressure. The first bands did it by extreme parody of rock bands which were getting very samey, and the kids did it by dressing to extremety as a start, and then gradually each punk got his own "flavour" of looks. The politics behind it, methinks, is also a large part, though not the only factor.

/2cents.

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 03:31 PM
It's like the homecoming of long gone members today. First Jesse now you.



Anyway, I think you can apply some of the classical theories on the wokring of government to punk (or indeed any socio-musical movement) in the idea of the cycle of Monarchy degrading into Tyranny which is overthrown by Aristocracy which degrades into Oligarchy which is replaced by Democracy which descends into Ochlocracy (mob rule) which is replaced my Monarchy and the process of the one, the few and the many is repeated until a mixture of the three is instiruted like Machiavelli's Discourses on the Roman republic refer to.

I really like Machiavelli, he gets a lot of bad images about him due to The Prince but he made a lot of very good points and I agree with his concepts of fortuna and virtu.

Pirate Satellite
01-26-2006, 03:38 PM
Yeah, Machiavelli was a smart guy, but was he a punk?

Virtu and Fortuna are applicable to anyone, but they were theories that he wrote in an appeal to a totalitarian ruler to strengthen his military state. I could see virtu as being an absolute necessity to a punk rocker, because so much of it is DIY, but how would you pinpoint him as an influence on the movement? You're pretty right on with the theory of overthrowing, but I'm interested in hearing more about where you're coming from.

coheneran
01-26-2006, 03:40 PM
What are virtu and fortuna?

me likes punk
01-26-2006, 03:47 PM
Punk was fanzine in New York.

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 03:49 PM
I'm thinking more of Discourses than the Prince, the Prince gets a lot more attention but I think when looking at Machiavelli's actual ideals Discourses is more useful as Machiavelli puts forward a Militia as the best form of army ie an armed population and you can only really have an armed populace in a Republic suggesting that's the form of government he feels is the best. There is also an argument that the Prince is solely ironic (which I disagree with) but the idea of it more as an intellectual exercise is interesting. There is one point, with the discussion of Agathocles, where he dilutes his otherwise seemingly radical stance, possibly put in to show that he didn't truly believe his advice or make his ideas seem more palatable.

That's just my take.


I also enjoy looking at the use of History as justification for ideas and ideals, be it Marx's "All history is the history of class struggle" or Machiavelli's exhortation to follow the Romans but again that's just a more general point that can be applied to just about all movements and groups.

What are virtu and fortuna?
Basically fortuna is opportunity and virtu is the ability to capitalise on that opportunity.

Pirate Satellite
01-26-2006, 03:50 PM
What are virtu and fortuna?


One of Machiavelli's key ideas was that every man's life is in the fate of two forces, Virtu and Fortuna.

Virtu describes one's own personal abilities and ambitions. It's one's skills and morals. Fortuna, on the other hand, describes the forces that are out of control of the individual. It is essentially luck. With virtu, a man can predict and mold his fortuna, but only in very rare cases can extremely good fortuna compensate for a lack of virtu.

It's kind of like with Hurricane Katrina or something. That was a stroke of bad luck, which was fortuna, and could not have been subverted. However, we know now that the local and federal government in fact had the knowledge that the storm was coming, and should have used virtu to overcome it. It's a balance like that.

And yeah, that Marx quote is perfect for punk rock.

coheneran
01-26-2006, 03:52 PM
One of Machiavelli's key ideas was that every man's life is in the fate of two forces, Virtu and Fortuna.

Virtu describes one's own personal abilities and ambitions. It's one's skills and morals. Fortuna, on the other hand, describes the forces that are out of control of the individual. It is essentially luck. With virtu, a man can predict and mold his fortuna, but only in very rare cases can extremely good fortuna compensate for a lack of virtu.

It's kind of like with Hurricane Katrina or something. That was a stroke of bad luck, which was fortuna, and could not have been subverted. However, we know now that the local and federal government in fact had the knowledge that the storm was coming, and should have used virtu to overcome it. It's a balance like that.

That's one of the smartest philosophical analysises (sp!) of life I've ever seen. But what it has to do with punk, I don't see.

me likes punk
01-26-2006, 03:53 PM
I'm leaving the forum, because of this thread. Goodbye forever.

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 04:00 PM
Another figure who I'd definitely say has some influence with his ideas , put forward in The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, is Max Weber who linked the idea of the ideal of working solely for commercial gain and the spread of Protestantism into a dominant philosophy as the byproduct of many Protestant ideals led to a capitalist philosophy. I think it can be reflected by the punk rejection of both religion (including Protestantism and the ethic that has come to be associated with it) and capitalism. How embracing a DIY atheist spirit has in some way returned punk to an almost fetal religious position espoused by those such as the Franciscans where wealth is eschewed in favour of ideals.

The sociology of religion in relation to the sociology of punk is another interesting concept.

asdf
01-26-2006, 04:03 PM
Thoreau.

Pirate Satellite
01-26-2006, 04:29 PM
Ooh, Thoreau was a good call.

Hep Kat
01-26-2006, 04:56 PM
Please Kill Me is my punk philosophy.

Pirate Satellite
01-26-2006, 05:25 PM
What is that?

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 06:00 PM
It's a t-shirt Richard Hell used to wear.

I believe it's also a book of punk history too.

coheneran
01-26-2006, 06:02 PM
The Philosophy Of Punk is a really good book about aspects of punk and it's offshoots (straight edge, hardcore, emo etc.), though it doesn't actually have a conclusion, which is the right thing in it's own way I suppose; Lay out the facts, let the reader conclude.

moogoogaipan
01-26-2006, 07:34 PM
*reconciled*

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 07:44 PM
my philosophy of punk is that kids rebel against the society because their parents didn't pay enough attention to them. Seriously, what's with all the punk songs ranting and raving about how America sucks... Leave if it sucks and go live in Cuba where freedoms are many and life is leisurely:rolleyes:
If it weren't for this country, you'd probably get arrested and shot on charges of sedition.
I mean if someone has a good argument then I'd be very obliged to listen... but the only punk that I ever hear is angry rants about how the government sucks... but somehow punks are the only ones who can't get along with the nation...
You're missing the point of the thread. Don't make this into a "What is punk to you?" thread because it's not and they always degenerate into mindless posturing and idiocy of the kind you demonstrated perfectly in your post.

moogoogaipan
01-26-2006, 07:47 PM
sorry... I'm bad about that. But what is the philosophy
seriously though...

Ok start over on my part.
Some explain this philosophy to me. Is there some message getting skewed that makes most punk bands want to overthrow the government.
I don't understand this philosophy to bash the country you live in...
it's completely anti-intellectual

Scuba_Steve
01-26-2006, 08:04 PM
it's less bashing the country and more trying to promote change in the country, preferably for the positive.

Some people do it through debates........just some punks decide to go the radical route.

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 08:07 PM
Questions are the basis of knowledge, this has been established since Socrates.

Being intellectual, in my view, is based on questioning everything and anything be it History, Philosophy, Economics, Literary Criticism or Politics.

Okay, the "Oi! Oi! Oi! Bush sucks" sloganising of Anti-Flag etc is retarded but following a philosophy that questions the current political system and favours another is a perfectly legitimate.

Socrates was executed for questioning the gods, in Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia you'd be executed for questioning the status quo and those who did were rightly regarded as heroes. The great figures of the 20th century, Gandhi, Mandela, King all questioned and fought against the laws trying to bring about a change in legislation or in government.

I'm not comparing modern America to Nazism or Apartheid but going blindly along with what your government does just because they're your government is ignorant beyond words.

moogoogaipan
01-26-2006, 08:15 PM
Being intellectual, in my view, is based on questioning everything and anything be it History, Philosophy, Economics, Literary Criticism or Politics.


.
Wow... you have surprised me. Someone who actually has an understanding of this kind of stuff. I've never met a punk who understood anything of this in this sort of sense.
I always question everything... regardless of how it seems. And you put a smart spin on it that I wish all punks could be able to read this cause some are just being ignorant... and ignorance is the most frustrating thing.
but as with all societies, there is someone who blindly follows a message and conveys it until it becomes the norm... which is where these political groups come in.
But still help me out here.
Why not study political science and actually get into the system. If you want to inspire change your gonna have to get on the side of some serious movers and shakers and being punk isn't going to get much respect from a professional political crowd.

pedro durruti
01-26-2006, 08:22 PM
Nihilism sucks, it's so POINTLESS. ****ing nihilists I hate them so much

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 08:23 PM
Nihilism is an interesting concept though like Anarchism it has been hijacked by idiots who don't know what it means and think long words make them look cool. While I don't agree with it in its entirety it definitely raises some interesting questions.Wow... you have surprised me. Someone who actually has an understanding of this kind of stuff. I've never met a punk who understood anything of this in this sort of sense.
I always question everything... regardless of how it seems. And you put a smart spin on it that I wish all punks could be able to read this cause some are just being ignorant... and ignorance is the most frustrating thing.
but as with all societies, there is someone who blindly follows a message and conveys it until it becomes the norm... which is where these political groups come in.
But still help me out here.
Why not study political science and actually get into the system. If you want to inspire change your gonna have to get on the side of some serious movers and shakers and being punk isn't going to get much respect from a professional political crowd.
I suppose partly it's a symbolic thing, like the way Malcolm X wanted blacks to achieve equality without the help of whites, but it also comes from the fear of being co-opted by the system you're trying to fight.

King Rumjen
01-26-2006, 08:29 PM
A small portion of an essay I wrote on the subject last week;


There were many factors that were responsible for the creation of punk rock; at the time there was high unemployment and lots of union strikes, most notably refuge collection. As a direct result of this, there was a lot of rubbish on London’s streets. Malcolm McLaren (manager of the sex pistols) turned this upside down by turning a black bin bag into a fashion statement, cutting holes for arms/head and turning it into a garment of clothing. This alternative or ‘anti-fashion’ started in a shop called ‘Let it Rock’, in Kings Road, Chelsea and ‘Sex’ in Clapham, where Vivienne Westwood began making clothes that were primarily intended to offend, most famously the bones of rock t-shirt, where chicken bones found in the dustbins of a local Chinese restaurant were used to spell the word rock, the cowboy print t-shirt with two naked cowboys smoking cigarettes with their penises almost touching and Sid Vicious’ Destroy t-shirt that featured the Nazi swastika. This type of symbolic expression and presentation has been associated with its ideology (Rowe, 1995) Fashion was the primary means to rebel against the mainstream at the time, and it was a very visible signal on London’s streets. This musical evolution cannot be understood without recourse to the social and political environment of the time (Friedlander, 1996).
This form of rebellion gained popularity quickly, as many young people were angry at their inability to find a job (due to their lack of professional skills), they didn’t have anywhere to vent their anger, and felt a deep seated unity with others amongst the scene at the time. This localised scene defied mainstream manufactured pop culture in everything from their appearance to the type of music they bought, creating themselves a fashion that defied what the media told them to wear and think. Rhetoric such as ‘anarchy’, ‘pop’, and ‘violence’ promoted punk values. Ultimately, punk’s efforts to protest the professionalisation of British society were doomed to failure because the musicians involved could not help becoming professionalized themselves (Simonelli, 2002). This is very Ironic, as the sex pistols were formed as a completely talent less band. Their antics were reported widely by the press, and during an interview on Thames television Johnny Rotten said “****” and called the interviewer a “****ing rotter” (making him the first to say **** on television) this kept the tabloids occupied for days and gave the band significant publicity. In the anarchy tour that followed many dates were cancelled by local authorities and given a large police presence which led to many riots. “It is suggested that much may be learned about a society from those who are in opposition to it” (Isais, D, 1982)

Rowe, D; 1995, Popular cultures: rock music, sport and the politics of pleasure. SAGE Publications Ltd., London

Friedlander, P; 1996 Rock and roll: a social history. Westview Press, Inc., Boulder, USA

Isais, Diez del Rio, 1982, De Juventud: Revista de Estudios e Investigaciones. No 6 Apr-Jun 1982, 101-132. Publisher InformationEditora Nacional, Barcelona



If you want to get all philosophic on the argument its got to be Marx's theisis/antithesis philosophy or possibly Socrates style questioning of society, lets not forget what happened to him.

Anarcho Poser
01-26-2006, 08:34 PM
Thoreau.
Yeah, I associate it most closely with transcendentalism.

Pirate Satellite
01-26-2006, 08:34 PM
I think, in the sake of this discussion, it's essential to disregard the sort of thoughtless, mallgoing punks who draw anarchy symbols on their notebooks in the same way that you have to disregard uneducated Bush bashers in a discussion on the philosophy of liberalism or the way you disregard Klansmen as outliers in discussions on conservativism.

sketchyjoe
01-26-2006, 08:35 PM
I'm pretty sure the first use of the f-word on TV was in the mid-60s.

ThisUserIsAPipebomb
01-26-2006, 09:43 PM
I've decided that punk shouldn't be about a set philosophy, criteria or anything that you need to just fit into. It should just be something that you flow in and out of and there shouldn't be requirements for being punk or standards to judge if one person is more punk than any other.

Biscuit_box
01-27-2006, 06:48 AM
I'll start off by saying that I believe in what I know and see for myself. I don't agree fully with any form of philosophy. People today, on this forum, in punk and in life do not have views that they can't back up that is their own reasons but nothing more than stuff they've read and can quote easily. Plus people seem to like to use "big" and "hard" words to seem smarter. Yes, we can all use a dictionary and use big words if we had so much time to look them up! I'll explain myself simply in mundaine language.
Religion. I don't beleive in religion is a false statement for anyone. If you "don't believe", like me, then you know it's all bullshlt. Every religion in the world is a cult. Every one of them started with some random guy saying stupid things that people wanted to hear. "Jesus", for example, was probably the stupidest person in history to be "recorded". In the bible it says that this particular religion is "blind faith". Of course it is, because no-one on earth could say that they are 100% sure "God" exists. Sure it's even said that qwhen Jesus returns that he won't use his "powers" to prove he is who he is. That's because the "inventor/s" of this cult knew this could probably cover their ***. Religion has no place in this world, in punk, in this existence. Religion is for those who are afraid of death and want hope because they don't want to realise that when you're dead you are gone forever.
The government. I find the whole "We hate Bush" trend extremely funny. It shows how stupid people who follow trends are. They think Bush is calling the shots. No president in the world does anything without asking permission from people with more power than them. Bush has no power compared to the people who are telling him what to do. I agree with a philospher who wrote about anarchy (I forget his name). But he said that man should not control man. Man should have his own power and choice in everything. I believe this to a certain degree but there are people who would need to be taught how to use prinicpal and have a morallity that would be acceptable to anyone with an IQ over 10.
Punk to me is music. An expression of peoples views. Not to followed by every kid who hears it but let people hear different views of life. I don't ahve much time but I will tell you all to stop using others ideas as your own and please for the sake of humanity think for yourselfs.
Flame me if you want but at least I'm not tip-toeing around to try and get everyone to agree with me. Agree with me or not, just take it on board.
I'll add more another time

coheneran
01-27-2006, 09:54 AM
I'll start off by saying that I believe in what I know and see for myself. I don't agree fully with any form of philosophy. People today, on this forum, in punk and in life do not have views that they can't back up that is their own reasons but nothing more than stuff they've read and can quote easily. Plus people seem to like to use "big" and "hard" words to seem smarter. Yes, we can all use a dictionary and use big words if we had so much time to look them up! I'll explain myself simply in mundaine language.
Religion. I don't beleive in religion is a false statement for anyone. If you "don't believe", like me, then you know it's all bullshlt. Every religion in the world is a cult. Every one of them started with some random guy saying stupid things that people wanted to hear. "Jesus", for example, was probably the stupidest person in history to be "recorded". In the bible it says that this particular religion is "blind faith". Of course it is, because no-one on earth could say that they are 100% sure "God" exists. Sure it's even said that qwhen Jesus returns that he won't use his "powers" to prove he is who he is. That's because the "inventor/s" of this cult knew this could probably cover their ***. Religion has no place in this world, in punk, in this existence. Religion is for those who are afraid of death and want hope because they don't want to realise that when you're dead you are gone forever.
The government. I find the whole "We hate Bush" trend extremely funny. It shows how stupid people who follow trends are. They think Bush is calling the shots. No president in the world does anything without asking permission from people with more power than them. Bush has no power compared to the people who are telling him what to do. I agree with a philospher who wrote about anarchy (I forget his name). But he said that man should not control man. Man should have his own power and choice in everything. I believe this to a certain degree but there are people who would need to be taught how to use prinicpal and have a morallity that would be acceptable to anyone with an IQ over 10.
Punk to me is music. An expression of peoples views. Not to followed by every kid who hears it but let people hear different views of life. I don't ahve much time but I will tell you all to stop using others ideas as your own and please for the sake of humanity think for yourselfs.
Flame me if you want but at least I'm not tip-toeing around to try and get everyone to agree with me. Agree with me or not, just take it on board.
I'll add more another time


If Jesus was anything, (and I'm taking the Woody Guthrie stance on this) he was an anarchist or a socialist. At least, that seems to be part of the message in the New Testament, as I understood them.

Punk is about thinking for yourself and being yourself. For me.

TeleJon
01-27-2006, 03:52 PM
my dick invented punk rock

Brain Toad
01-27-2006, 04:35 PM
my dick invented punk rock

May I worship it?

TeleJon
01-27-2006, 06:13 PM
May I worship it?

ill add you to the list

Unban Me Says Cameo
01-27-2006, 07:11 PM
John Locke can DEFINATELY be seen as a basis for punk rock, even if he did influence the birth of America. You have to realize, Hobbes, Lock, Rousseau, Smith, they were all QUITE liberal in their day and highly regarded as symbols of social and economic progession and independence from a monarchy. Hobbes, though advocating a monarchy, did so because of the fallibility of humanity and that stands as a strong case in punk rock. The undependable nature of people has been an long argued case in songs and scene. Just look at 'sell outs'.

Locke's theories of pursuing life and liberty are definately in line with punk. Liberty moreso because what is punk if it is not an independent scene free of influence that one deems extraneous? His theories on property were generally peaceful, but the condoning of foreceful take over contradicts peaceful punk theories.

Personally, I feel that trying to allign punk rock to a philosophy or a philosopher is a bit out of line. It is a philosophy in itself and the definitions are very broad (on purpose) and therefore allow for it to be a personal thing which is, at least to me, one of the main drawing points of the scene. All these Enlightened philosophers came before punkers, but I don't think Lou or Cale or La Monte Young or Iggy Pop were thinking of these intellectuals when they laid down the groundwork, ya know? If you're merely looking to compare, I can understand what you mea, but trying to draw a line of influence is impossible because it was something that manifested itself independent from all that.

asdf
01-28-2006, 11:04 AM
Progressivism (in a way) and transendentalism.

What an interesting thread this is.

smokersdieyounger
01-29-2006, 08:47 AM
A small portion of an essay I wrote on the subject last week;


There were many factors that were responsible for the creation of punk rock; at the time there was high unemployment and lots of union strikes, most notably refuge collection. As a direct result of this, there was a lot of rubbish on London’s streets. Malcolm McLaren (manager of the sex pistols) turned this upside down by turning a black bin bag into a fashion statement, cutting holes for arms/head and turning it into a garment of clothing. This alternative or ‘anti-fashion’ started in a shop called ‘Let it Rock’, in Kings Road, Chelsea and ‘Sex’ in Clapham, where Vivienne Westwood began making clothes that were primarily intended to offend, most famously the bones of rock t-shirt, where chicken bones found in the dustbins of a local Chinese restaurant were used to spell the word rock, the cowboy print t-shirt with two naked cowboys smoking cigarettes with their penises almost touching and Sid Vicious’ Destroy t-shirt that featured the Nazi swastika. This type of symbolic expression and presentation has been associated with its ideology (Rowe, 1995) Fashion was the primary means to rebel against the mainstream at the time, and it was a very visible signal on London’s streets. This musical evolution cannot be understood without recourse to the social and political environment of the time (Friedlander, 1996).
This form of rebellion gained popularity quickly, as many young people were angry at their inability to find a job (due to their lack of professional skills), they didn’t have anywhere to vent their anger, and felt a deep seated unity with others amongst the scene at the time. This localised scene defied mainstream manufactured pop culture in everything from their appearance to the type of music they bought, creating themselves a fashion that defied what the media told them to wear and think. Rhetoric such as ‘anarchy’, ‘pop’, and ‘violence’ promoted punk values. Ultimately, punk’s efforts to protest the professionalisation of British society were doomed to failure because the musicians involved could not help becoming professionalized themselves (Simonelli, 2002). This is very Ironic, as the sex pistols were formed as a completely talent less band. Their antics were reported widely by the press, and during an interview on Thames television Johnny Rotten said “****” and called the interviewer a “****ing rotter” (making him the first to say **** on television) this kept the tabloids occupied for days and gave the band significant publicity. In the anarchy tour that followed many dates were cancelled by local authorities and given a large police presence which led to many riots. “It is suggested that much may be learned about a society from those who are in opposition to it” (Isais, D, 1982)

Rowe, D; 1995, Popular cultures: rock music, sport and the politics of pleasure. SAGE Publications Ltd., London

Friedlander, P; 1996 Rock and roll: a social history. Westview Press, Inc., Boulder, USA

Isais, Diez del Rio, 1982, De Juventud: Revista de Estudios e Investigaciones. No 6 Apr-Jun 1982, 101-132. Publisher InformationEditora Nacional, Barcelona



If you want to get all philosophic on the argument its got to be Marx's theisis/antithesis philosophy or possibly Socrates style questioning of society, lets not forget what happened to him.

Youve got some of your punk rock history muddled up there. It started in New York, and the anti-fashion was started by Richard Hell, Edgar Allen Poe is a big influence on the beginnings of punk rock, but I havnt read much of that yet.

Punk rock is its own philosophy of course, but I feel it is based on the ideas of sartre with its sponteniousness (word?) Bernie Road's was always telling The Clash to read Sartre. Also I feel it is rather reactionary to the philosophy of Aristotle, in the way that things which are ugly are changed to be different and ugly (Joey Ramone, Degenerate Rock and Roll itself). The way ones virtures are sought by recognising your vices and improving on them. Punk rock encourages the recognition of vices and making them make you stand out from the crowd.

I would also like to talk about my own ideas of what punk rock is and should be today.

asdf
01-29-2006, 08:53 AM
Punk is about thinking for yourself and being yourself. For me.
Which is very Transendentalist.

There's that whole aspect of punk, and then there's (sometimes) the political aspect. When bands and fans speak out against political views they don't believe in, and speak about how society should be is progressivism. You are stating something that you believe society will benefit from. It could be about a vegan diet, it could be a belief in anarchism. Or maybe it's not. It's about your personal perspective on moving society forward.


And I'd like to remind people that this thread isn't about the begining of punk.

Unban Me Says Cameo
01-29-2006, 09:07 AM
Youve got some of your punk rock history muddled up there. It started in New York, and the anti-fashion was started by Richard Hell, Edgar Allen Poe is a big influence on the beginnings of punk rock, but I havnt read much of that yet.


Actually, Hell 100% mimicked Rimbaud's look. And Tom Miller (Verlaine) adopted Rimbaud's mentor/lover's/shooter's last name, Verlaine, who was in his time, a more prominent poet.

RIP Ian Curtis
01-30-2006, 07:14 AM
Nihilism sucks, it's so POINTLESS. ****ing nihilists I hate them so much


Nihilism is unsustainble, it always evolves into existentialism. I tried to be a nihilist but my personal moral compass woudln't let me. If there was one catch-all philosophy for punk (at least from my point of view) it would have to be existentialism, living by your own rules and finding your own way of living and doing things. I find myself agreeing about the politics stuff posted by moogoogaipan, so many punks, and not just the Green Day crowd espouse half-baked stupid political views to try and be punx. I agree more with the apolitical stance of The Velvet Underground and the early New York scene, and I think we will see a massive swing that way in the next year, as every moron and his dog feels the need to release an idiotic political album, tru punx will get back into the "don't step on my blue suede shoes" shi't.

coheneran
01-30-2006, 07:37 AM
Nihilism is unsustainble, it always evolves into existentialism. I tried to be a nihilist but my personal moral compass woudln't let me. If there was one catch-all philosophy for punk (at least from my point of view) it would have to be existentialism, living by your own rules and finding your own way of living and doing things. I find myself agreeing about the politics stuff posted by moogoogaipan, so many punks, and not just the Green Day crowd espouse half-baked stupid political views to try and be punx. I agree more with the apolitical stance of The Velvet Underground and the early New York scene, and I think we will see a massive swing that way in the next year, as every moron and his dog feels the need to release an idiotic political album, tru punx will get back into the "don't step on my blue suede shoes" shi't.

You're saying that all the true punks are going to turn apathic to politics because of the massive popularity of political thought?:lol:

Seriously, I get what you're saying. Go back to the roots of the punk rebellion, precisely, freedom of choice.

RIP Ian Curtis
01-30-2006, 07:52 AM
I don't know if that's what I'm thinking, but it's what I said. Not sure how to put it, I think you're second statement basically summed it up. I think that when political thought becomes dumbed down, cleaned up and mass-marketed, actual punks would drift away from it, or else any "new" punks would not buy into it at all.

coheneran
01-30-2006, 07:57 AM
That's rather true, but I don't think we should scorn all the Green Day/Blink/A-F scene punks for their dumbed down politics. If it wasn't for those bands and more, these punks would still be apathic kids with no interest in anything outside the latest fad from Hasbro and the latest band from Warner Bros and Columbia.

RIP Ian Curtis
01-30-2006, 08:01 AM
But to them, hating Bush is just another Hasbro fad, they're not really doing or achieving anything, just making "f'uck bush" another button badge for their pre-ripped, pre-faded jeans that came already held together with safety pins.

coheneran
01-30-2006, 08:08 AM
But to them, hating Bush is just another Hasbro fad, they're not really doing or achieving anything, just making "f'uck bush" another button badge for their pre-ripped, pre-faded jeans that came already held together with safety pins.

I would rather see a Fu'ck Bush badge than a Boyzone badge on any day of the year (except Boyzone Day). Also, I think that in any anti-Bush protest, their numbers do achieve things. But anyway, it's things like this that turn people into real politics and into forming their own opinions. One of the factors that turned me anarchist is the G8 support protest in Edinburgh organised by Bob Geldof. If I wouldn't have gone there, I wouldn't have gone to Stirling, and I wouldn't have gone to the real protests.

RIP Ian Curtis
01-30-2006, 08:14 AM
Fair enough I suppose, I've never been remarkably political myself, so I'm probably just being bitter.

ratsinthecity403
01-30-2006, 08:28 PM
I like the Punkvoter thing. I don't know how effective it was, but at least the bands were doing their best to get people to actually vote. Unfortunatley most of the bands on with that were pop punk so their fans are what, twelve or thirteen?

Myself, I'm not activley political these days, just don't buy from sweatshops or companies/stores with the worst business practices that I dislike enough to stop buying from them like wal-mart or nike.

England5Germany1
01-30-2006, 09:50 PM
I suppose partly it's a symbolic thing, like the way Malcolm X wanted blacks to achieve equality without the help of whites, but it also comes from the fear of being co-opted by the system you're trying to fight.

More so then symbolism, I think it goes back to The Weather Underground type theory that to remain inactive against violence in violence, and if you believe that the system is state sponsored violence, than to go along with it make you an accessory to a crime.

Unban Me Says Cameo
01-30-2006, 10:54 PM
More so then symbolism, I think it goes back to The Weather Underground type theory that to remain inactive against violence in violence, and if you believe that the system is state sponsored violence, than to go along with it make you an accessory to a crime.

The Weathermen were very agressive and violent. They were good men, but not followers of civil disobedience.

sketchyjoe
01-31-2006, 04:04 AM
They also named themselves after a Bob Dylan lyric. How cool is that?

RIP Ian Curtis
01-31-2006, 09:17 AM
Really? I always thought that line in "Subteraenean Homesick Blues" was about the Weathermen, we live and learn I suppose.

sketchyjoe
01-31-2006, 09:21 AM
Nope, the Weathermen formed in 68/69. Subterranean Homesick Blues was released in 1965.

RIP Ian Curtis
01-31-2006, 09:23 AM
Aaaah. I kinda discovered the 60's backwards. Oh by the way, if Brain Toad reads this, I checked out Phil Ochs on the strenght of your posting, that guy is a god amongst men. I got "Hills Of West Virginia" and "Canons Of Christianity", any other essentials?

sketchyjoe
01-31-2006, 09:30 AM
My favourite Phil Ochs songs are I Ain't Marching Anymore, Love Me I'm A Liberal and One More Parade.

DBoons Ghost
01-31-2006, 09:57 AM
The only good thing about this ridiculous thread is Telejon!

Otherwise, you guys try to find meaning in something that truly has no meaning.

It's just music. Get over it.

kurrpt
01-31-2006, 10:16 AM
damn u rule Dboon

Culture Shock
01-31-2006, 10:17 AM
The only good thing about this ridiculous thread is Telejon!

Otherwise, you guys try to find meaning in something that truly has no meaning.

It's just music. Get over it.

No.

DBoons Ghost
01-31-2006, 10:30 AM
No.


Hey man I don't care either way.

I'm just sayin you're wasting energy talking about this.

sketchyjoe
01-31-2006, 11:33 AM
The only good thing about this ridiculous thread is Telejon!

Otherwise, you guys try to find meaning in something that truly has no meaning.

It's just music. Get over it.
Everything has meaning, even if it's one that wasn't intended by the creators. The only meaning anything has is what you decide it has. If someone decides that punk (or any music) has a deeper meaning than some stupid words and simple chords then it does.

RIP Ian Curtis
01-31-2006, 11:48 AM
Punk means pretty much everything to me, although my understanding of it has evolved over time. It's been who I am since I was a 13 year old snotty d'ickbrain, when Sid Vicious seemed the most punx thing in the world and saying f'uck off to everyone was my goal. Now I find the artier side of things, no wave, some of the jazzy stuff like Television and The Voidoids, all that kind of thing. So punk has a lot of meaning to me, it's been a lifestyle, an image, a set of things to live by, a crutch in hard times and the sountrack to everything good that has happened to me (except losing my virginity, I had Concrete Blonde playing then). So once again we get back to the existentialism. To DBoon, punk has no meaning and is just music, to me, in my context, the way I see it, punk has more meaning that anything else.

Brain Toad
01-31-2006, 05:34 PM
The only good thing about this ridiculous thread is Telejon!

Otherwise, you guys try to find meaning in something that truly has no meaning.

It's just music. Get over it.

This is why I love you.

whitetrashmidget
02-18-2006, 04:49 PM
originally i think punk WAS about being different but also having your own group mentality. now its catching the same bug as the other genres within rock and becoming samey. this is also why punk was meant to be a genre unto itself.

RIP Ian Curtis
02-19-2006, 09:41 AM
Depends on which little "subcategory" you feel like being in. For people into Oi and a lot of East-Coast hardcore, solidarity is a huge deal (the "your own group mentality" that you mentioned), for other folks (I include myself) I feel no remarkable solidarity with other "punks" and I'm more likely to hate them than other "normal" people because they probably like Bad Brains or something. So the group thing has different importance depending on who you are and how you feel. So once again (see a pattern?) we get back to existentialism...

sr800bkBassist
02-19-2006, 03:11 PM
sorry... I'm bad about that. But what is the philosophy
seriously though...

Ok start over on my part.
Some explain this philosophy to me. Is there some message getting skewed that makes most punk bands want to overthrow the government.
I don't understand this philosophy to bash the country you live in...
it's completely anti-intellectual
the way you look at it, it's like saying if you live in a bad house, just move.

well, what if you grew up in that house, and rather than giving up on it, you want to make your home better?

TeleJon
02-20-2006, 01:32 AM
Hey man I don't care either way.

I'm just sayin you're wasting energy talking about this.

ha
yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

_AnarchistArmy_
02-20-2006, 06:16 AM
Hey man I don't care either way.

I'm just sayin you're wasting energy talking about this.


TRRUUEE!!! And by the way, Punk isnt about hating his own country. Punks love his country so much that he didnt want the government to fu'cked it all up. Then, thats when anarchy comes in. And figure the rest yourself. But, Talking about this is useless.

sketchyjoe
02-20-2006, 07:34 AM
God, you're a fucking idiot. Every post I've ever read by you has been absolute drivel and left me less intelligent for reading it. You probably like the Casualties too.

Say "Hello" to my ignore list.

Anti-Prefix
02-20-2006, 07:55 AM
TRRUUEE!!! And by the way, Punk isnt about hating his own country. Punks love his country so much that he didnt want the government to fu'cked it all up. Then, thats when anarchy comes in. And figure the rest yourself. But, Talking about this is useless.

Yes, yes, figure the rest yourself. Because you cannot explain it, or anything for that matter.

DaveToopes
02-20-2006, 10:42 AM
TRRUUEE!!! And by the way, Punk isnt about hating his own country. Punks love his country so much that he didnt want the government to fu'cked it all up. Then, thats when anarchy comes in. And figure the rest yourself. But, Talking about this is useless.

Anarchists don't support army or any form of military silly!