Matter, how do you do those tom rolls?

[Serberus]

Matter/anyone that can answer my question,

I really like the sound of "tom rolls", I haven't got any videos to refer to recently but I remember Matter doing them really well, seamlessly moving around the toms and making it sound like one long roll.

Portnoy does it in this video almost right at the start:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/mikeportnoysolo.html

I've been playing around, I thought it was just bass, bass, tom, tom in a loop, but i've recorded myself playing and it doesn't sound anything like it.


BASS|XX--XX--XX--XX--|
TOM-|--XX--XX--XX--XX|


The spacing is off but is that right?

I've been doing bass/tom combinations at about 200bpm 16ths but it doesn't sound anywhere near fast enough (not even close to what Portnoy sounds like in that video).

Are these guys playing rediculously fast? I'm assuming not and that it's technique applied well, but I haven't been able to decipher the technique.

Can anyone offer advice please?

Thanks

Serberus

[bryanokay]

so guys...how bout them apples!?

[serenityNOW]

if you watch the video closely in the beginning he switches over to double bass i think. you can easily get that sound by just adding double bass under your fills. or if you dont have a double just do single bass as rapidly as you can and do really fast tom fills. this works for me.

[Futuro]

4 Hits on tom (32nd notes) 2 hits on bass (32nd notes)

[\m/-CHeV-\m/]

you NEVER start doign such a roll on your bass.. remember that..
Portnoy's fill in pull me under:

tom1 |----------------oooo------------|
tom2 |----------------------oooo------|
tom3 |----------------------------oo--|
snare|oo--oooooo--oo------------------|
Bass |--oo------oo--oo----oo----oo--oo|

[Jezen]

^^^
Why 'never'?

[Cheungman]

yea why never? i do them sometimes

[Jezen]

Portnoy does it in this video almost right at the start:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/mikeportnoysolo.html

All due respect to MP, but that solo is very boring.

[Chrysostom]

All due respect to MP, but that solo is very boring.

Agreed. One of my favourites, but the guy hasn't got the skills for solos. Lucky for him he's awesome at "in song" drumming.

[dairyairman]

is he using hot rods in that solo?

anyway, i think doing tom/bass roll is a good way to get going fast without doing a fast single stroke roll on the bass, which i think is a lot harder.

[HeLLmO]

you NEVER start doign such a roll on your bass.. remember that..
Portnoy's fill in pull me under:

tom1 |----------------oooo------------|
tom2 |----------------------oooo------|
tom3 |----------------------------oo--|
snare|oo--oooooo--oo------------------|
Bass |--oo------oo--oo----oo----oo--oo|


^portnoy does fills like that all over the place, and they are soo much fun. might i now take a moment to refrence the greatest song of all time and say portnoy does a fill like that towards the end of the intro to Home

and yea, i didn't much care for that solo either

[Det_Nosnip]

Yes, he does them ALL of the time. Unfortunately, it's 1 of about 3 licks he has. :lol:

[Jezen]

As explained in my video... :p

[Massik Kretal]

I do those alot also. There really fun and really easy, but I can only do 2 hands 2 feet. Never bothered to try other combos.

[Hunted By a Freak]

Oh god, hand foot combos


STOP SPREADING THE MADNESS

[Massik Kretal]

What do you have against them? They sound good, though many OD on it.

[ThugsRook]

aldridge > portnoy

especially when it comes to combo fills like that.

[Josiah]

I've been doing bass/tom combinations at about 200bpm 16ths but it doesn't sound anywhere near fast enough (not even close to what Portnoy sounds like in that video).

Are these guys playing rediculously fast? I'm assuming not and that it's technique applied well, but I haven't been able to decipher the technique.

Can anyone offer advice please?

Thanks

Serberus


Well 32nd's at 100 is pretty quick. However hate to break your bubble, portnoy etc, they aren't really playing that much faster. In fact, if they played it slower then you do, it'd prob sound faster.

Work on control, cleaness, relaxation, precision. The illusion of something being very fast often comes from it being played very clean. When notes are played cleaner, they sound that much better.

Slow things WAY down, work with a click. Though I wouldn't spend too much time on the hand foot combos.

[Senseless Apprentice]

BASS|XX--XX--XX--XX--|
TOM-|--XX--XX--XX--XX|

Yes, this is one of the more popular combinations that artists like Matter and Portnoy commonly use. The reason it probably does not sound right when you do it is because you haven't practiced it enough. What you have to do is practice it.

One way I would suggest doing it is by taking 15 minutes of your practice day and start at a slow and VERY comfortable speed (set metronome). Set a timer to 15 minutes. And just play bass-hand combos for 15 minutes. Play them from Snare to Bass, from Toms to Bass, from Tom/snare to bass. The next day, increase your tempo by 5 BPM. You may start noticing dramatic differences in merely a few weeks.

The important thing about this excersise is that it will develop your coordination and reflexes between all 4 limbs. Once that is developed, you will start to fly on these fills. They sound pretty frikin cool IMO.

Good luck.

[Double Bass Jim]

aldridge > portnoy

especially when it comes to combo fills like that.
Of course! Tommy was doing that back in the early 70's much better and much cleaner. Not to mention his patterns and ideas are far more expansive.

[Hunted By a Freak]

What do you have against them? They sound good, though many OD on it.


Answer; overdone, not very creative or expressive... at least not to me when I'm playing.

[Double Bass Jim]

Yeah, I try to steer clear of that pattern and only use it once in a great while. It's one of those things that can be abused beyond belife ala mike style.

[Det_Nosnip]

Well, everything does have its use, and I use the sort of fills every once and a while (I'm partial to the triplet based ones, myself), but whenever people just SIT on a lick like that, it gets really old.

[Jezen]

I use them. They work. I don't overuse them though...

[rohbit]

Of course! Tommy was doing that back in the early 70's much better and much cleaner. Not to mention his patterns and ideas are far more expansive.

Indeed...

The double bass flam and tom/floor tom combo from "Over the Mountain" still blows my mind..

Any other albums featuring Tommy you can suggest Jim?

[Double Bass Jim]

Well, everything does have its use, and I use the sort of fills every once and a while (I'm partial to the triplet based ones, myself), but whenever people just SIT on a lick like that, it gets really old.
It's a quicksand lick, you can get caught in it's trap no doubt.

[Hunted By a Freak]

I went through a period of overuse with those combos... same thing with blushdas... it's just a matter of outgrowing a phrase or muscle memory pattern you rely on and expanding into more improvisational ideas or creative phrases.

[Double Bass Jim]

Indeed...

The double bass flam and tom/floor tom combo from "Over the Mountain" still blows my mind..

Any other albums featuring Tommy you can suggest Jim?
Black oak arkansas "Raunch 'n' Roll"

Some of his best playing and a GREAT solo on it.

Also anything pat travers live EXCELLENT stuff.

[Det_Nosnip]

Indeed...

The double bass flam and tom/floor tom combo from "Over the Mountain" still blows my mind..

Any other albums featuring Tommy you can suggest Jim?

Oh, that was him? Yeah, that's a badass tune. :cool:

I went through a period of overuse with those combos... same thing with blushdas... it's just a matter of outgrowing a phrase or muscle memory pattern you rely on and expanding into more improvisational ideas or creative phrases.

I confess, I still abuse the blushda from time to time. :naughty: It's just such a great lick...

[\m/-CHeV-\m/]

^^^
Why 'never'?

maybe it wasn't that great of a statement, but i just think it sounds crappy when you start such a fill with two bassdrum notes.. and i've never seen such a fill that begins with twoo bass notes..

[goalieman92]

is he using hot rods in that solo?
no. he is using his promark sig. series which are very nice to play with

[HeLLmO]

^he uses rods in the beginning of it then changes to his promark sigs

[Matter]

Matter/anyone that can answer my question,

I really like the sound of "tom rolls", I haven't got any videos to refer to recently but I remember Matter doing them...

Serberus

Like these guys said just start slow and make sure all the notes are clean. I went through a faze of overusing these myself but just as anything you finally get down smoothly you want to play alot:p . I would really suggest using a click and starting fairly slow and try stuff like 2h-2f, 2h-4f, 4h-2f, 4h-4f, 6h-6f...ect. Just do them till you can pretty much improv a crazy long fill and make it sound smooth at whatever bpm you are at then raise is a bit. I still do these every warm-up to help loosen up. Don't forget you an start with the feet first as well.

[Jezen]

maybe it wasn't that great of a statement, but i just think it sounds crappy when you start such a fill with two bassdrum notes.. and i've never seen such a fill that begins with twoo bass notes..

It's nice because the higher pitches fall on the upbeat creating a jazzier, more open feeling.

[Chrysostom]

The illusion of something being very fast often comes from it being played very clean.

I wonder why that is? Anyone care to explain that strange phenomenon to me? I've noticed it even with me. I'll do a roll that's not especially quick, and to me at the time it'll sound that way, but if I record it, it'll sound a fair bit quicker. Strange but awesome.

[Josiah]

Just how we hear things. When something is played clean, it's true speed is then being best represented.

If something is played sloppy, it's actual speed is somewhat hidden.

[Hunted By a Freak]

Yeah, playing a clean phrase is better and should be of most importance, as it is what the average listener wants to hear.