political writings, etc.

[onenationunderagroove]

I would really like to understand politics and things of that nature better, but I have no clue where to start. I'm posting this in here because my few definite beliefs are somewhat similar to some common punk beliefs and I always have been able to relate more to what punks/punk music had to say about politics. Can anyone reccomend some good books, sites, films, etc.? I dont really know what to call myself, I like aspects of all things (anarchism, socialism, etc.), so I'm not looking for anything specific. Thanks.

[Kool Aid]

I don't know much about politics myself, so I have nothing good to recomend. One thing I can tell you, though, is to head over to the Politics, News and World Issues board(sub-forum of The Pit) and lurk around there a little more often.

[Lukeh]

I read your post in the "... Social Stuff" thread, and wondering if you'd be interested in stuff by Bill Hicks? a lot of what he says is not only political, but very philosophical and just gets you thinking about issues that generally aren't brought up in politics or mainstream thought anyway. You can download tons of different types of files from any p2p software, or just find books/quotes on the net...

As far as politics goes, I'd just watch the politics sub-forum for a while and ask a few questions, they're generally quite helpful chaps.

[coheneran]

I would really like to understand politics and things of that nature better, but I have no clue where to start. I'm posting this in here because my few definite beliefs are somewhat similar to some common punk beliefs and I always have been able to relate more to what punks/punk music had to say about politics. Can anyone reccomend some good books, sites, films, etc.? I dont really know what to call myself, I like aspects of all things (anarchism, socialism, etc.), so I'm not looking for anything specific. Thanks.

Download The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx (and Engels) and read it with a dictionary at hand. After a while you will get the hang of the style of writing and learn to see how some writers set out their work, and most importantly, what all the 9-letter words are.:thumB:

[Rise Me Up]

Noam Chosky (http://www.chomsky.info/)

[coheneran]

Noam Chosky (http://www.chomsky.info/)

Noam Chomsky is interesting, but don't take him too seriously. He's a smart guy, but he is also about as biased as they come. I know he's on "our side" (anarchist, that is), but he's not very objective, which makes for bad judgement. He used to be in a kibbutz with my grandma. Apparantly he talked a lot and was arrogant, my grandma didn't like him.

[Anarcho Poser]

Wikipedia, if you're not looking for anything specific.

[Culture Shock]

Anarchism: Arguments For and Against by Albert Meltzer. You can find that on www.AKpress.org.

[kirby1928]

Is there such a thing as a 'punk political view?' I know people who listen to punk who have views all across the political spectrum. Surely when you start conforming to only one point of view, then we **** up being punk anyway?

So yeah, in conclusion and ****, read books from all across the spectrum and make up your own mind.

[Anarcho Poser]

Is there such a thing as a 'punk political view?' I know people who listen to punk who have views all across the political spectrum. Surely when you start conforming to only one point of view, then we **** up being punk anyway?

So yeah, in conclusion and ****, read books from all across the spectrum and make up your own mind.
That's, uhh, what he's trying to do, I think.

[kirby1928]

Yeah, maybe you're right. But there seems to be a lot of advice about the left of the spectrum (And don't get me wrong, I'm a pinko-commie-leftie-socialist too) and not much on the right. Even knowing the enemy is better than just having your sights on one part of the whole idea spectrum.

[coheneran]

Yeah, maybe you're right. But there seems to be a lot of advice about the left of the spectrum (And don't get me wrong, I'm a pinko-commie-leftie-socialist too) and not much on the right. Even knowing the enemy is better than just having your sights on one part of the whole idea spectrum.

"Don't think you can fool me with your political tricks!/Political right, political left, you can keep your politics!/Government is government, and all government is force!/Left or right, right or left, it takes the same old course!"

[kirby1928]

"Don't think you can fool me with your political tricks!/Political right, political left, you can keep your politics!/Government is government, and all government is force!/Left or right, right or left, it takes the same old course!"
And your advocating what, exactly?

[MechanicalClockworkOrgy]

I would really like to understand politics and things of that nature better, but I have no clue where to start. I'm posting this in here because my few definite beliefs are somewhat similar to some common punk beliefs and I always have been able to relate more to what punks/punk music had to say about politics. Can anyone reccomend some good books, sites, films, etc.? I dont really know what to call myself, I like aspects of all things (anarchism, socialism, etc.), so I'm not looking for anything specific. Thanks.
http://www.crimethinc.com

biggest anarchist book making people (no better term i can think of) around
good group of people too, i met some of the heads once when they came to our town, and i know the shipping manager guy pretty well
its very easy to read, and very easy to grasp the concepts theyre trying to put out there. just read some of the free stuff, and if you like it, order Evasion, off the map, and if your into DIY things; get Recipes for Disaster

and if you order, make SURE you get the free pamplet "Fighting for our Lives" it makes alot of sense, and its freeee!, so when your done give it to your friends/family

if you like reading that stuff alot, contact me at nothings.shocking@gmail.com

[Super Nintendo]

yeah, wikipedia is a good place to start

[AndreTheHyena]

Ann Coulter's a pretty spot-on writer, I highly recommend her.

[onenationunderagroove]

Ann Coulter's a pretty spot-on writer, I highly recommend her.

I'm assuming this is a joke? Come on I'm not that stupid..

[lfantwister]

If you want a lesson in economics try adam smith or milton friedman, for more governmental stuff i recommend starting at the very beginning, with plato's republic. i personally think that it's a load of bullsht, but it's what every other--opposing and agreeing--political philosophy has come from, some more indirectly than others. I think to really understand where we are today you have to start in history, to see where it all came from, and how it has evolved. So check the magna carta after that, since it was the first real alliance that happened for the good of the nation and not individuals. Of course we like to fast forward through the boring bits, so get a little descartes or voltaire or rosseau or machiavelli in there. then you can move on to the constitution & aristocracy v. democracy, and all that jazz. and dont forget the good ol classics, get some marx or lenin in there too. plus, just to balance things out theres a famous anarchist by the name of max stirner, or try emma goldman (she's very easy to read).

[Brain Toad]

Try listening to Jello Biafra's spoken words, he offers a lot of good viewpoints I believe.

[onenationunderagroove]

Try listening to Jello Biafra's spoken words, he offers a lot of good viewpoints I believe.

that sounds interesting. where can i find it?

[Brain Toad]

that sounds interesting. where can i find it?

He has about 5 or 6 spoken word records out. You can buy them online or in a record store, or you can find them on a p2p such as Soulseek.

[coheneran]

And your advocating what, exactly?

Crass.:lol:

try emma goldman (she's very easy to read).

Emma Goldman is my heroine. She was foxy. I highly recommend her, in fact, she's a must-read for all anarchist and feminist research.

[redstainedeyes]

I just bought Republic by Plato the other day. I haven't read much yet, but it's good.

[lfantwister]

I just bought Republic by Plato the other day. I haven't read much yet, but it's good.

Like I said, I think it's a load of bullsht, because the guy is sitting in his orchard creating worlds in his head that have no relevance to reality--check out the part where he talks about the way the leader of the society should be picked. Plato is quite off his rocker, in my opinion, but it's definitely a good thing to read.

[coheneran]

Like I said, I think it's a load of bullsht, because the guy is sitting in his orchard creating worlds in his head that have no relevance to reality--check out the part where he talks about the way the leader of the society should be picked. Plato is quite off his rocker, in my opinion, but it's definitely a good thing to read.

He's a philosopher, not a politician. He deals with ifs and whys, not how.

[Her Lives]

Emma Goldman killed herself because her partner was in jail and she went mad without him.

Green Anarchism - http://www.anarchy.no/eam.html
CrimeThinc ex workers collective - http://www.crimethinc.com/main/news.html
Green Chaos Collective - http://www.mediadissent.com/greenchaos/home.html
Underground Library - http://www.undergroundlibrary.net/

Enjoy.

[ROT]

goes without saying
look inside
haha
:(
while there might be a so called "natural human need for structure and order
i feel it was "installed there if you will(physiologically/brain chemical wise)
by "aliens" (the gods of the bible)
long ago to keep us a more easily manageable subservient slave race
:(
along with the supression of our psychic" powers/true potential as more than just physical human thingys
haha
and im serious

[coheneran]

You MUST be shrooming.

[ROT]

i cant handle psychedelics anymore
haha i feel i might have a psychotic break
and while that might be kinda true perception of all the waves and everything
it wouldnt be positive while still externally physical
haha
im not ready fo da next step
:(

[Anxious]

Ann Coulter's a pretty spot-on writer, I highly recommend her.
I agree.

[lfantwister]

He's a philosopher, not a politician. He deals with ifs and whys, not how.

Right, but he's trying to tell the "hows" in his method of selecting the ruling "philosopher-king." Thats where it all goes loco

[coheneran]

Right, but he's trying to tell the "hows" in his method of selecting the ruling "philosopher-king." Thats where it all goes loco

But he's dealing with a theoretical world, an 'if', not the real world.

[tappenzee]

Here's a real good start:

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Kerouac is essential if you're more into being personally free than some lame communo-socialist state telling you what to do all the time. Hunter S. Thompson is good for the same reason, although not political per se, but then again, I've never seen punk as political per se either.

[ROT]

yeah seriously its not what you know neccesarily or think you know or someone else knows and you latch on to
but how its applied
which is haaaaard to figure out
haha

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Unfortunatly, if you want anything right-wing that some punx believe in, it's only the super-extreme stuff. Mein Kampf, any of Enoch Powell's speeches especially, that kind stuff is what right-wing punx are into. There aren't really many punk bands singing about reasonable moderate conservatism.

[Brain Toad]

Unfortunatly, if you want anything right-wing that some punx believe in, it's only the super-extreme stuff. Mein Kampf, any of Enoch Powell's speeches especially, that kind stuff is what right-wing punx are into. There aren't really many punk bands singing about reasonable moderate conservatism.

I hate you

[RIP Ian Curtis]

What? Someone asked about right-wing punk stuff, and if we're talking right wing punk were talking skrewdriver and all that sort of shi't. I'm not saying you should support it, but everyone should read it.

[AK47]

Unfortunatly, if you want anything right-wing that some punx believe in, it's only the super-extreme stuff. Mein Kampf, any of Enoch Powell's speeches especially, that kind stuff is what right-wing punx are into. There aren't really many punk bands singing about reasonable moderate conservatism.

faggot.

[Mr. Ron]

Are there any punk bands that are conservative and NOT racist?

[Brain Toad]

Are there any punk bands that are conservative and NOT racist?

I've heard talk of one from one member, I think it was Flagjacket. Don't know their name though.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Are there any punk bands that are conservative and NOT racist?


Not really. The only "preachy" conservative punk bands are the extremists. There's conservatives who play/played punk (several of the Misfits, Johnny Ramone) but not really any bands that go out to spread that message.

[AIRIC]

Final War



haha jk.

[DaveToopes]

Final War



haha jk.

They are good.

Don't read Mein Kampf.

[onenationunderagroove]

Are there any punk bands that are conservative and NOT racist?

there were some 80s conservative Oi! bands, all about patriotism and stuff like that. Combat 84 is one i know for sure, possibly also Condemned 84. I don't really know many others.

[tappenzee]

Lets think about the term "conservative punk"

Punk rock is about changing ****, shaking **** up, doing something different.

Conservatism is about preserving the status quo, holding things as they are, and resisting change in all forms.

Punk rock and conservatism are mutually exclusive

[MechanicalClockworkOrgy]

Lets think about the term "conservative punk"

Punk rock is about changing ****, shaking **** up, doing something different.

Conservatism is about preserving the status quo, holding things as they are, and resisting change in all forms.

Punk rock and conservatism are mutually exclusive
aye aye :chug:

but there is a pretty big difference between conservatives and neo cons. what your probly thinking of is neocons (bu$h admin, most republicans and whatnot these days etc.)
neocons are usually religiously oriented (but for the wrong reasons)
some old old conservatives support trading as opposed to money and currency. the only difference between their trading and the trading that goes on between distros and zine publishers and stuff is that the conservative traders trade to get more, where as the more liberal traders use it as a way of getting ideas across, its more fair usually
but dont get me wrong, i really dont agree with much at all the right wing has to say

just a bit o info for ya :wave:

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Anyway, we're straying from the topic a fair bit here. I still recommend Kerouac and Thompson. A lot of the super-cool New York set were inspired by Kerouac, including Richard Hell and that horrible wench Patti Smith.

[coheneran]

Lets think about the term "conservative punk"

Punk rock is about changing ****, shaking **** up, doing something different.

Conservatism is about preserving the status quo, holding things as they are, and resisting change in all forms.

Punk rock and conservatism are mutually exclusive

Tell that to Tory Ramone.

[tappenzee]

Tell that to Tory Ramone.

He's dead to me. Some cool music, but I don't agree with thing one of his philosophy

[Kithkin]

You shouldn't be coming to a punk forum looking for information on polititcs.

And you shouldn't start with Crimethink or Chomsky or Anarchist or Conservative ranting.

Both sides argue with rhetoric that is very hard to argue against if you don't know anything. If you look at either the right or the left, you end up reading only things that help their side.


For instance, if you read on the left about gun control, they'll never mention the fact that more children die every year from home swimming pools than they do from gun shootings, accidental or otherwise.

What you should do is go to your local bookstore or library and ask the clerk or librarian for a book on opposing viewpoints.

Read a lot of stuff by people whose names you'll never remember and build up a few facts and opinions of your own before going into the big names in political rhetoric.

Other than books, you can read the New York Times, The Washington Post, and the BBC for fairly balanced reporting on the issues. The editorial pages are biased but the papers themselves are usually factual.

[ROT]

chomsky sux
haha
but i like the phrase manufactured consent
and i made my own from it
manufactured dissent
ohz
:(

[coheneran]

chomsky sux
haha
but i like the phrase manufactured consent
and i made my own from it
manufactured dissent
ohz
:(

why does chomsky "sux"?

[ROT]

as alex jones(crazy fundo conspiracy theorist) said
hes a new world order shill
hahaha
but really hes a bit too "realistic" fo mah taste

[coheneran]

as alex jones(crazy fundo conspiracy theorist) said
hes a new world order shill
hahaha
but really hes a bit too "realistic" fo mah taste

You mean his reasoning and logic is too perfect?

[Kithkin]

He takes a long time to make a point.

He knows too much and feels he has to include every example that in some way supports his point that he can be boring to read or listen to.

[coheneran]

He takes a long time to make a point.

He knows too much and feels he has to include every example that in some way supports his point that he can be boring to read or listen to.

He just goes through every aspect of the argument before letting someone their chance for rebuttal. What's the point of going around and around in an argument when you can pwn every point while making your presentation? It's how good (mass) debators work.

Hehehe, mass debators.

[ROT]

no i mean
yeah hes "factual" and very detailed
but thats face value fact
its deeper than face value here and now politricks and just behind the scenes corporate interest
in my view anyway
but im a crazy alien govt conspiracy thingyer

[coheneran]

no i mean
yeah hes "factual" and very detailed
but thats face value fact
its deeper than face value here and now politricks and just behind the scenes corporate interest
in my view anyway
but im a crazy alien govt conspiracy thingyer

Can you rephrase that please, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Kithkin]

He just goes through every aspect of the argument before letting someone their chance for rebuttal. What's the point of going around and around in an argument when you can pwn every point while making your presentation? It's how good (mass) debators work.

Hehehe, mass debators.


That's actually a very poor way to debate. Chomsky very rarely debates anyone. He only really lecutres.

See, in a debate, you have to make your point succinctly, and chomsky is essentially incapable of doing that.

Chomsky has a lot of information, but his information is usually uniform. One example does just as well as any other. The information he gives you tends to repeat itself which, as I said before, makes for a boring and sometimes aimless argument.

If you want to change people's minds, you can't assume they're going to listen to you until you stop speaking. You have to hit them with your argument right away or they'll lose interest. Chomsky doesn't really change minds because the only people who finish his readings are those who agree with him anyway.

[gregulus]

I don't sense any bias in here do I? Haha.

For reading other than Socialist or Anarchist material, look into The Federalist Papers.

P.S. Marx's writings are among the most dry I've ever read and Chomsky should stick to Linguistics - leave the social reformation to other people.

[coheneran]

I agree, Chomsky is indeed a very cunning linguist.

[gregulus]

I agree, Chomsky is indeed a very cunning linguist.
From what I've read of his Linguistics - I don't like those either. I was at a show once and I picked up a pamphlet of him and another guy debating human nature. I haven't been able to read it yet.

[coheneran]

It was a joke, cunning linguist sounds like cunilingus. He is to anarchists what Michael Moore is to lefties. He is smart and deserves credit, and he is one of the most famous, but by no means in the top 50 anarchists =P

[drumindave]

You guys keep talking bout bias, obviously it is impossible to be unbiased because any view taken on something with interpretation is bias, only unbiasness is fact. For example, you see ten cows. A fact is there are ten. A bias from a person could be that are large. Not everyone would think that its true and it is including your own opinion, background which influences your believes on what large is.

I would read Stuff by Marx, and Plato if your interested in politics. Ayn Rand also has some good social ideas, her books present them far better than her essays.
I also thinks it is kinda funny how people associate punks with communism, soicalism, and anarchism. It's weird because technically speaking wouln't communicism and socialism be far right forms of government. Lots of control of people indirectly in them. Anarchism is the complete opposite.

If I were the threadstarter I would read whatever you need and form your own plans about government, because obvouisly none of the known "isms" work to good theres still rich poor dead and disease in all of them.

A question to everyone. Does anyone else get pissed about the government thinking about it in any forms and start to think who the **** are they to control me in any form ?

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Ayn Rand is groovy, I like her stuff.

I find it interesting that Chomsky is so universaly hated by the left, I mean, he is on your side.

[coheneran]

Ayn Rand is groovy, I like her stuff.

I find it interesting that Chomsky is so universaly hated by the left, I mean, he is on your side.

I don't hate him. Love the world. I just don't think he is what people say he is.

^^bias^^

[DaveToopes]

Ayn Rand is groovy, I like her stuff.

I find it interesting that Chomsky is so universaly hated by the left, I mean, he is on your side.

I like Rand as well.

[Liebensaft]

Guys, guys guys...We're all forgetting about one of the most influential lyricists, and writers of our time. This man has been the inspiration behind countless political protests, as well as written novels that are impossible to put down. He has an incredible ability to intertwine words together in dazzling ways to captivate all of his readers.

































This one's for you, Dr. Seuss.:chug:

[coheneran]

Guys, guys guys...We're all forgetting about one of the most influential lyricists, and writers of our time. This man has been the inspiration behind countless political protests, as well as written novels that are impossible to put down. He has an incredible ability to intertwine words together in dazzling ways to captivate all of his readers.



This one's for you, Dr. Seuss.:chug:

Samalam, clam I am, eating dirty mouldy green ham. Or something like that.

[Liebensaft]

Samalam, clam I am, eating dirty mouldy green ham. Or something like that.
You butchered a classic. You will eternally burn in the fiery depths of Jew hell.

[coheneran]

...the fiery depths of Jew hell.

There is a shorter word for that. Heaven.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Fred Reed is kinda cool, in a rednecky sortof way. www.fredoneverything.com, check out some of his essays. Personally I like him, but I'm guessing at least 3/4 of the board will loathe him with the whole of their little black hearts.

[lfantwister]

Fred Reed is kinda cool, in a rednecky sortof way. www.fredoneverything.com, check out some of his essays. Personally I like him, but I'm guessing at least 3/4 of the board will loathe him with the whole of their little black hearts.

link didnt work

[ROT]

politricks as is as we know it or think we do anyway is so far from the actual essence of the idea so its impossible to really talk about

i think forced artificial order nurtures irresponsibility and ignorance
by design tho
see how it comes back around to that
its hard to discuss from this particular foundation
mah but fel out

[coheneran]

i think forced artificial order nurtures irresponsibility and ignorance
by design tho

(I wish you would pay attention to your grammar, it makes it much more pleasant to read when people do.)

Your statment is true, I have seen it myself. A system instituted to create or maintain order (among people) will always become obsolete (because people change/evolve) and someone will be repressed by it, until the system is replaced or updated. Unfortunately, right now many of our systems are repressive and counter-productive, because they are obsolete. Bummer.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Oh sodomy, the link should be www.fredoneverything.net . Sorry.

[lfantwister]

^ still doesn't work....

[RIP Ian Curtis]

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

try this one maybe...

[DaveToopes]

That works.

[lfantwister]

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

try this one maybe...

That guy is funny. But his points are kind of irrelevent/ irreverent

[RIP Ian Curtis]

I dunno, I find myself agreeing with him on a lot of things. Kind of reminds me of Hunter S. Thompson, in a way.

[RudeBoyStompin]

Al Franken is good for a laugh. Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them was good. I'm looking forward to reading his new one.

[anti_manifesto]

Here's some good advice I received from Todd Kowalski (bass player of Propagandhi) on the matter of politics (via e-mail, October 26, 2004):

"I think the best solution to your problem is to read, read, read. I used to not be into it myself when i was younger , but I swear to you now it will pay off and you will be glad. The average person really doesn't know too much about the true way things work debates with people willl become very easy at some point and you will feel less frustrated. i would suggest reading about places in the world that interest you, I find it a much more interesting way to go than reading "political" books. All the politics in the world can be found in these types of books."

[anti_manifesto]

RIP Ian Curtis: Hunter S. Thompson was a brilliant man. Excellent writer...very captivating.

[RIP Ian Curtis]

Indeed. And I agree with Freak Power. I've even gone out and got a freak power fist tattooed over my heart.

[Kithkin]

This one's for you, Dr. Seuss.:chug:

Seuss was a racist propaganda spreader.

[onenationunderagroove]

You shouldn't be coming to a punk forum looking for information on polititcs.

And you shouldn't start with Crimethink or Chomsky or Anarchist or Conservative ranting.

Both sides argue with rhetoric that is very hard to argue against if you don't know anything. If you look at either the right or the left, you end up reading only things that help their side.


For instance, if you read on the left about gun control, they'll never mention the fact that more children die every year from home swimming pools than they do from gun shootings, accidental or otherwise.

What you should do is go to your local bookstore or library and ask the clerk or librarian for a book on opposing viewpoints.

Read a lot of stuff by people whose names you'll never remember and build up a few facts and opinions of your own before going into the big names in political rhetoric.

Other than books, you can read the New York Times, The Washington Post, and the BBC for fairly balanced reporting on the issues. The editorial pages are biased but the papers themselves are usually factual.


is there aything in particular that you would recommend?

[Lukeh]

is there aything in particular that you would recommend?
Get a few beginners guides to philosophy from your local library, they always help put you into a state of mind that makes you question everything. Any of the "Oxford" ones won't do you any harm.

[coheneran]

Get a few beginners guides to philosophy from your local library, they always help put you into a state of mind that makes you question everything. Any of the "Oxford" ones won't do you any harm.

Like the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary?

[nonsense!]

Stop. stop stop stop. EVERYONE STOP.

To the threadstarter, if you read any one of these books, read it in mind that it's all BIASED. No one can just "teach you politics". Go to highschool, you have to take government to graduate (in the states).