Making up songs..

[riseskater21]

Me and my friends have a band called Thriving Among Chaos. It's a metal based band. My friend has been playing guitar for about a year and has only been trying metal for a few months. We have trouble making up songs/riffs on guitar. Can anyone help me out with some good chords to play or maybe some riffs? Thanks.

[Alive]

Sure, let me just write some songs for you, that'll be ok won't it?

[riseskater21]

If your not being sarcastic, then thatll be great.

[Alive]

::Audible sigh::

Yes, I was being sarcastic, sory about that :p

What good would me writing songs for you do? As soon as you needed more songs the only thing you could do would be to come back here and ask for more.

So tell me a few things:

What kind of metal? Name a few bands

How well can you play?

Why do you want to write songs?

There are many, many ways to write a song. Reply to those and I'll (try to) help you more.

[Adm1R]

If your not being sarcastic, then thatll be great.
lol.

Maby it's a little bit to eearly to make your own stuff.

[riseskater21]

First of all, thanks for helping me out.

We are influenced by bands like In Flames, The Red Chord, and As I Lay Dying.

I play drums, and I'm pretty decent, been playing for about 2 years and I'm now 13.

We have lots of lyrics, we just need help on thinking of some good sounding guitar riffs.

[Alive]

It's never too early to start composing.

[riseskater21]

lol.

Maby it's a little bit to eearly to make your own stuff.

When he said songs, I thought he meant riffs, and I was going to try to take the riffs and change them up to my liking..

[Adm1R]

When i make riff's i normaly do it whitout the guitar. When i get inspired by something i normaly try to "hum" the melody and so on. If i think it sounds good, i move on to the guitar :)

Dont know if its easy or not, but thats the way i do it ;)

[riseskater21]

Yeah he tries that we can just never get the right chords.

[Adm1R]

Yeah he tries that we can just never get the right chords.
Hmm, maby you should try to cover some songs, until the guitar player gets better.
Its hard to make your own music, specially when you've only been playing for 1 year.

[Trigger_003]

Everyone has a different composition technique. There are various ways that are commonly used and it's up to you to experiment around with them to see what suits you and tailor them as necessary in order to create the technique that works best for you and/or your band.

It will take work. His first riffs - in fact... a lot of them after it - will most likely be horrible. This is nothing against him, it's just how it works out the majority of the time.
Don't let him get disheartened though. Just make him think back to when he started guitar... to think of how long it took to get those basics down.
"It probably didn't sound awesome at first and took you quite a while, yeah? But what did you do to improve?"
Practise. And that's what he's gotta do with his composition skills too. The way he's going to improve is by
- getting a better ear and applying it
- getting a better knowledge of theory and applying it (http://www.musictheory.net)
- applying it some more

You'll notice a great difference between the first and the 10th set of riffs/licks/songs. Get up to the 20th/50th/whatever and it's a massive improvement (well... hopefully :p).

Well seeing you have lyrics, here's the approach used quite frequently in this context.

Work out a melody for those lyrics if you haven't already done so. Then you have something to build off. Once you've worked something out - even if it's just for one section (say the chorus) - then work out the kind of music you're going to need to accompany the lyrics in each section. Use the lyrics to assist you of course...
You wouldn't want happy music behind lyrics like

To us you said no one would be there
A helping hand, forever gone
In yourself our faith entrusted
Bequeathed, we run from tyrant eyes
(which is from one of my songs and no you can't have it... not that anyone'd want to :p)

So work out the feel of the lyrics (mellow, powerful, something to rock out to...?). What instruments/effects will you need for this feel?

After that, work out what key your melody is in and then find corresponding key(s) for the instruments. Use notes/chord progressions from the key you have chosen (some basic chord progressions are probably easier to start out with) and use intervals that will create the feel you're after
The sound (mood, or colour) of the intervals:
2nds are thought of as: dissonant, tight, sharp-edged
major 3rds are thought of as: happy, bright, passive, resolving
minor 3rds are thought of as: sad, dark, moody
perfect 4ths are thought of as: foundational, strong, needing to resolve downward
augmented 4ths are thought of as: dissonant, sinister, needing to resolve upward
diminished 5ths are thought of as: dissonant, sinister, needing to resolve upward
major 6ths are thought of as: emotive, moving, soaring
minor 6ths are thought of as: provocative, stirring, lamenting
major 7ths are thought of as: tense, lush, loving
minor 7ths are thought of as: hard edged, strong willed, pivotal



Using Adm's technique...
If someone other than the guitarist has experience with this (like, whoever made up the melody for instance), they can create a sound in their head that would be good, sing it out and then the guitarist can apply it to the guitar.

[riseskater21]

Thanks soo much ^. I'll copy paste that and show it to him. Maybe once we record a song I will post it.

[Trigger_003]

Awesome. That'd be great to have a recording - we can make more specific suggestions that way (like, we'll be able to tell if chords or actual licks are more the problem and in what way, then provide advice on how to improve any areas there were faults in).

And welcome to the forums btw :).

[Alive]

First of all, thanks for helping me out.

We are influenced by bands like In Flames, The Red Chord, and As I Lay Dying.

I play drums, and I'm pretty decent, been playing for about 2 years and I'm now 13.

We have lots of lyrics, we just need help on thinking of some good sounding guitar riffs.


The first step is to downtune your guitar. You definetly don't have to do this, and I don't even like it, but that does make it easier to play metalz.

Do you know anything about playing guitar? I'll presume you do, if not, you or your guitarist can ask.

A device used a lot in metal and rock music is the power chord. This is the generic name for an interval of a fifth(dont worry about this for the moment)

Played on a guitar, they look like this in their simplest form:
(Imagine these are the two lowest (thickest) strings)


A-2-4-5-7-9-10----
E-0-2-3-5-7-8----

Played with distortion, these sound very heavier, much more 'metal sounding' than single notes or full chords, which tend to sound a bit 'muddy' if played with heavy distoriton. So the pioneers of rock and metal ommitted the third (don't worry if you don't know what that means) to leave the root and the fifth. Power chords can be extended to sound slightly heavier and complete by doubling the root note one octave up, like so:


D-2-4-5-7-9-10----
A-2-4-5-7-9-10----
E-0-2-3-5-7-8----

The note on the D string is the same note as the one on the E string, just played higher.

Anyway, if you play them in drop D (this is to do with downtuning, there are many threads on this, just ask for one if your guitarist doesnt know what this is), the above chords now look like this:



D-2-4-5-7-9-10----
A-2-4-5-7-9-10----
E-2-4-5-7-9-10----

However you can also play these:


D-0-1-
A-0-1-
E-0-1-

Which sound slightly heavier. The reason for drop tuning is that you can slide your finger across the notes, making it easier to play power chord riffs, rather than having to move multiple fingers. Also it makes it sound slightly heavier.

Anyway, here are some famous riffs using power chords (correct me if I get any of these wrong):

Master of Puppets (standard tuning):

e--------------------------------------
B--------------------------------------
G---9----------------------------------
D---9----------------------------------
A---7---12-11-10-------------------12---
E---0---10-9--8--0-0-12-0-0-11-0-0-10-- etc

For Whom The Bells Toll:

|-4--4-----4--4----||.-(2)---------|-(2)--4--4-----4--4------||------------
|-4--4-----4--4----||--(2)---------|-(2)--4--4-----4--4------||------------
|-2--2-----2--2----||--(0)---------|-(0)--2--2-----2--2------||------------


Ironman:

|-4\7-7\9-9-12\11-12\11-12\11-7-7\9-9-|
|-2\5-5\7-7-10\9--10\9--10\9--5-5\7-7-|
|-------------------------------------|

So anyway, lets try and make up some original riffs. We'll restrict ourselves to power chords for now, purely for simplicity. I also think that, for now, trial and error is your best option in songwriting. So for the moment, take these power chords as the ones you can use:


D-------------------------------------
A-2-4-5-7-9-10-12-14-----------------------------
E-0-2-3-5-7-8--10-12-----------------------------


These will fit the best together, at least for now (I hope).

This next bit might not make much sense and unfortunatly it is the crucial part:

Try to play these in some kind of order. That's all I can really say. Combine these with palm muting and playing the muted low E string. Just think of a few ideas. The first thing that pops into my head is starting high up then sliding down and playing an ascending pattern:


D-14/-----------------------------
A-14/----------2-2-4-5-4---------------
E-12/--0-0-0-0-0-0-2-3-2-------------------


Quick note: This would be easier if you had downtuned, seeing as you wouldnt have to slide all your fingers down, just one.

You can play the above riff multiple ways, with differents amount of palm muting, with differnt rythms etc. You can also play with the power chords on different strings, the above riff is the exact same pitches as this one:


G-9-----------------------------
D-9-----------------------------
A-7---------2-2-4-5-4----------
E---0-0-0-0-0-0-2-3-2-----------


But you are likely to get a different feel off of both of them.

You (or your guitarist) needs to experiment with just playing the different power chords in different variations, whit different rytms, effects etc.

Sorry to talk to you as if you played guitar, but that's really the only way I can see to help. Perhaps get your guitarist to sign up here or to have him look at this and ask for stuff he doesn't understand.

Hope that helps, feel free to ask for clarification or further aid :D

[Alive]

0_o

Trea, I officially hate you :p

[Trigger_003]

If your not being sarcastic, then thatll be sad.

as in
Nooooooooo

*cries*

:p

[Alive]

Hahaha, it's just that that post took ages to write and I figured you and Gavin would be concerned with higher things like secondary dominants and Voice leading and what not :p

The :p smiley 3 posts in a row omgz.

Anyway, I'll just be a little more off topic: I might be getting a classical guitar :-D I'm going to try playing flamenco mainly, as I think there's a guitar shop in town that has them on Tuesday nights :D

[Trigger_003]

:p
4.

Your post is great tho. We addressed two different areas so it's all good.
Teamwork++
:-*

As for the classical... Yay!

[Alive]

Seeing as we're on the subject of composing (and the TS isn't online), I may as well ask this: How do I go about making extended chord progressions? By this I mean the addition of 7ths, 9ths, sus2 etc

I know the circle of fiths, circle of fifths and stuff, but I don't know the basics of adding notes to chords (well, i do know the basics, just not hte advanced) or stuff like effective chord inversions. I did get a book called #How to Write songs on guitar" for christmas, which is really good at analysing chord progresiosns, so that'll help. Anyway, i don't realy understand how people come up with stuff like this besides trial and error:

Emadd9 Gmaj13

|
| S S S S S S S S S S E Q
|----------0--------------------------------------------0-------------|
|----------0-0------------------------------------------3-------------|
|----------0---0----------------------------------------2-------------|
|--------4---------4------------------------------------4-------------|
|------2------------------2--------------2----------------------------|
|---0--------------------------0------------3-------------------------|

From Vai's 10 hour workout, btw.

It's just aggrivating, I suppose.

[riseskater21]

Thanks alot, I tried some of those out and I liked the sound of them.

[Trigger_003]

Well you know how to create diatonic sevenths don't you?
Like the MmmMMmd pattern you use for major, it's
M7,m7,m7,M7,D7,m7,hd7,M7 - major - diatonic 7ths
m7,hd7,M7,m7,m7,M7,D7,m7 - minor - diatonic 7ths

You can use the circle progression theory on them. For instance
ii-V-I
Dm7-G7-Cmaj7
is a common progression in jazz.

And so forth...
Wait, firstly, do you actually know how to create these various chord types?
Or are you just wanting to know how to use them within a progression (and you already know how to invert, create 13ths, etc.)?

[Darkwing Duck]

Trigger, where can I find info about chord progressions? I know how to create a lot of the chord types. :-D

[Trigger_003]

This is a post of mine from another thread. If it doesn't make sense as is, it should do if you read it within the thread (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425142), but yeah, there's a lot in that thread so I'm trying to make it less for you to read.
Here it is:

/is half asleep still so forgive me if this isn't as good an explanation as usual

The iii-vi-ii-V-I-IV-viiº-iii-vi-ii-V-I rule applies to something called a circle progression, which you will come across in the later lessons on musictheory.net I'm pretty sure.

A circle progression occurs in any instance where the tonic of a chord moves down an interval of a 5th or up an interval of a forth.

e.g.
we have a progression that has
iii -> vi
in this case, the chords are
Em -> Am

To find out if this is part of a circle progression, we take the tonic of both chords (E and A) and find out the interval:
E->Eb->D->Db->C->B->Bb->A
- m2, M2, m3, M3, P4, D5, P5
(m = minor, M = major, D = diminished, P = perfect btw - let us know if you need an explanation on intervals)

So if we descend the root from E to a lower A, the interval here is a fifth. And moving down a fifth, as I said before, creates a circle progression.

You can string a whole series of these together. And that's what's actually been done with this rule.
If you care to work it out, you'll also find that the tonics of all of the iii-vi-ii-V-I-IV-viiº-iii-vi-ii-V-I rule either descend a fifth or rise a fourth from their predesessor.

Starting on I;
I -drop by a 5th = IV - rise a 4th = viiº - v 5th = iii - ^ 4th = vi, etc etc.
And we've just created iii-vi-ii-V-I-IV-viiº-iii-vi-ii-V-I

In many pieces you come across, there are going to be chords where there is a tonic interval that isn't a drop of a fifth or rise of a 4th. However, it's fairly unlikely that there won't be at least one.
Why? Well these intervals are used in creating something called a cadence. You'll read about these on Musictheory.net when you get around to it, so I won't go into full detail... but so that you have an idea, cadences are like punctuation. They create something called phrasing and these cadences create a sense of completion (or tension that leads onto the next phrase, depending on which species of cadence you're putting to use).
So like Greg said;
Many times, you'll find a fragment of this used, like:
V-I
or
ii-V-I
or
I-vi-ii-V (C-Am-Dm-G)
You can use these. You can use others as well. You can put other chords in between these, but you can still easily use any two or more sequential chords from the circle progression. It will sound good, and practically every song is going to have at least one set of them somewhere.

Remember, theory is a set of guidelines, not of dos-and-don'ts. The purpose of this rule is to give you some chord progressions that you can mix and match with your other knowledge (and ear) in order to create whatever your imagination limits you to.

To take this a bit further...
As Jake said, the minor scale applies differently in this situation.
A minor is
ABCDEFG

whereas C major (the relative major) is
CDEFGAB

So when you're writing in Amin, what's I (or i) going to be - Cmaj or Amin?
Well A is the tonic of Amin, which is what we're working in, so that should answer that question for you.

Now your diatonic chords for minor are different to the diatonic chords for major.
As Jake partially explained,
C D E F G A B

so your chords are

C major - I
D minor - ii
E minor - iii
F major - IV
G major - V
A minor - vi
B diminished - viiº
In any major scale, you can apply this pattern - MmmMMmd - and you will have the names of the diatonic chords.

As you may or may not have noticed, the A minor scale contains all the same notes as C major; the scale just starts in a different location.

So if you were to take Cmaj
CDEFGAB
and take away all of the notes before A
AB
then put the notes you took away (CDEFG) onto the end
ABCDEFG
you have the A (natural) minor scale.
This is the concept behind modes (ish), but that's not what we're here for.

You can do the same type of thing for the diatonic chords:
MmmMMmd - major to
mdMmmMM - natural minor

So if you work through this like we did the major circle progression - which was
I-IV-viiº-iii-vi-ii-V and back to I
C-F---Bº--Em--Am-Dm-G and back to C

You'll find you have
i--iv-VII-III-VI-iiº-V and back to i
Am-Dm--G---C—-F---Bº-Efor natural minor, which will change completely the kind of sound you get (chords have changed - like the Em used in Cmaj is an E in Amin and stuff like that).

Hope that helps :thumb:

[Alive]

And so forth...
Wait, firstly, do you actually know how to create these various chord types?
Or are you just wanting to know how to use them within a progression (and you already know how to invert, create 13ths, etc.)?


Yeah, I can construct these, both within the key and abstractly with maj/min extensions, I just don't know how they relate to each other. I know about ii-V-I and diatonic 7ths as well.

The thing is that I can hear the individul flavour of a chord, but I don't immeadiatly know its relation to other chords.

I might start looking at the progressions in pop songs that use stuff other than the I-IV-V-I progresions, to effects and stuff they have.

Ughhh, I'm getting tired, goodnight :) And as always, thanks for your help.

[X_DeathRunsUponUs_X]

I read this thread and it was very helpful. Thanks all

[Trigger_003]

G'night :)

Oh okay, that's cool. Makes my job easier.
You've been working with musictheory.net haven't you? Have you managed to get up to the two Neapolitan Chords lessons? They'll show you a couple of instances where inversions are effective and how a Neapolitan sixth can be placed within the circle of fifths.
Might give you a bit of an idea of how to go about using inversions n stuff.

Also, extensions aren't commonly used above the seventh (by this I'm referring to 9, 11, 13) because certain notes don't really work together too well in most cases, but when they are, they're commonly used on the dominant chord (V9, V11, V13).

And now, a word from our sponsor (...or just wikipedia):
Table of Common Progressions
I, i May progress to any other triad. May interrupt any progression.

Major keys
ii -> ii-V, ii-vii6°

iii -> iii-ii6, iii-IV, iii-V, iii-vi

IV -> IV-I, IV-ii, IV-V, IV-vii6°

V -> V-I, V-vi

vi -> vi-ii, vi-IV, vi-V, vi-iii-IV

vii6° -> vii6°-I

Minor keys
ii6° -> ii6°-V
ii* -> ii-V, ii-vii6°

III -> III-ii6°, III-iv, III-VI

iv -> iv-i, iv-ii6°, iv-V, iv-VII
IV* -> IV-V, IV-vii6°

V -> V-i, V-VI
v* -> v-VI

VI -> VI-ii6°, VI-iv, VI-V, VI-III-iv

vii6°/VII -> vii6°-i/VII-III
_________

* ii and IV in minor used with an ascending #6; v in minor used with a descending 7
_________

That should help you with using inversions too. And btw, the 6 implies first inversion, in case you don't work with figured bass/figured Roman.

Yeah... might explain some more stuff later.

[judge_gideon]

This might sound pretty simplistic - but try humming something. Make sure you aren't humming someone else's music though ;)

Then, duplicate what you are humming on the guitar. :thumb:

[Trigger_003]

Woah.

Record short post from Greg.

!.

*takes screenshot*

[Adm1R]

When i make riff's i normaly do it whitout the guitar. When i get inspired by something i normaly try to "hum" the melody and so on. If i think it sounds good, i move on to the guitar :)

Dont know if its easy or not, but thats the way i do it ;)




This might sound pretty simplistic - but try humming something. Make sure you aren't humming someone else's music though ;)

Then, duplicate what you are humming on the guitar. :thumb:

You are fast (:

[judge_gideon]

Adm1R - yep, humming is a good technique. It should be used - it makes music more lyrical, breatheable, and human.

[judge_gideon]

On a more technical note, you can use an ostinato device for creating metal songs. Many metal musicans use this. It is a repetitious series of notes in a particular section of music.

Here's something I just made up for this example. It's a blues lick repeated over and over as the guitar & bass line, with a melody and improvized soloing over the top - don't laugh at the sound quality, I didn't have time to make it perfect - it's just for an example:

http://gregapel.com/audio/metal_thingy.mp3

meter: 4/4
key: Em (blues)
tempo: 100bmp

┌──────────────────────────────────────┐
├──────────────────────────────────────┤
├──────────────────────────────────────┤
├──────────────────2───────────────────┤
├───────────2─5─2────5─2─0─1─2─1─0─────┤
└────0─3─5───────5─────────────────3───┘
pm |................................|


try to play along with the mp3
♪♫♫♪

[Guitardo]

Try playing different metal songs if so you like certain chords or riffs take them and turn it into a song

[Guitardo]

Thats how my band writes songs:thumb:

[Trigger_003]

Buh buh buh bummmp (for Alive)

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

It's never too early to start composing.
Exactly. Chopin's first polonaise was published when he was 7 years old.

[Alive]

Exactly. Chopin's first polonaise was published when he was 7 years old.

I meant in terms of your musical experience. I don't know what age Chopin started studying music, but it was probably rediculously young.

But yeah, if you can write symphonies when you're 4, go for it!

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

Oh I see.

[Trigger_003]

Mozart composed Twinkle Twinkle Little Star when he was 5.

/random composition fact

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

Polonaise > TTLS though amirite

[Trigger_003]

No weigh!

Bolognaise>Polonaise>TTLS

Jeez, pplz these days :rolleyes:

O, n Simon, I bumped this for the chord stuff on da 1st page btw.
:)

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

Bolognaise XD

[Alive]

Is Gav really banned? THis is blasphemy of the highest order!

Trea, thanks for that, I didn't see it. I wish I had my piano or keyboard down here though :(

Did Mozart really compose Twinkle Twinkle or am I being an idiot?

[Trigger_003]

Lol yeah he did.

No worries man :).

[SomeKillersAreFashionable]

Well, I'm going to try to get back to the original point of this.

i play a lot of As I Lay Dying too
Ive only been playing about a year too
but i think i was a fast learner
and if youre playing that kind of matal, first of all, tune to drop C (CGCFAD)

most people i talk to think about it and come up with a melody before figuring it out on guitar

but i write by just messing around sometimes until i come up with something that sounds good.
or if i think about it, i usually think in terms of which frets im playing on and not exactly what its going to end up sounding like

also, power chords are made simpler when in drop D or C, so instead of playing

A|-----5-----------
E|-----3-----------

its just

G|-----5------
C|-----5------

A lot i write stays on the CGC strings, and reversing power chords sounds good too

Bare down hard on palm mutes open on CG to get the "JUN JUN" breakdown sound

hope that helped, if you didnt already know it

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

I'm not banned anymore :cool:.

[Alive]

Awww yeah.

Gav, my dear, what are music theory exams like?

[Amit]

Awww yeah.

Gav, my dear, what are music theory exams like?

it all depends on the level of the course being taught

[Alive]

It's called Grade 5 theory, a course taught at my (sixth-form) college.

I can't really do the actual course as I'm already taking 5 subjects (most people only do 4) and it wouldn't fit on my timetable, but I could register to do it this year or next year if I could find someone to teach me.

[Trigger_003]

So this would mean you'd be doing an official exam through some form of examination board?

Do you mean what do you need to cover (i.e. something along the lines of what I wrote up for you for grade 3 theory exams and practice exams some time back), or just how the exam works?

[TheWill]

I'm in a band, Athena Burning's the name.

<uselessSelfPromotion>http://www.myspace.com/athenaburning</uselessSelfPromotion>

I do a lot of music writing and it seems most of the time stuff that has lots of open riffing gets crowds going quite well, from personal experience I can say you need a drummer who can do double bass stuff. I'm not much of a drum expert cause I'm the guitarist, but it adds the kick in. I'd say about a lot of a metal song depends on the drums. (If you listen to the myspace thing we have a cool tune)

If you're using drop D by default as my band does, use low D a lot and add in a riff with A and higher D (fretting them of course..) If you have the pleasure of two guitarists, I'd suggest you harmonize riffs in some places, but not all the time otherwise it makes it sound boring.

For the bass guitarist, in some places have the bass line harmonized with either the melody of the lead guitarist and the rest of the time keep the bass line simple. I'm not much of a bass guitar expert either really.

Performing sometimes helps you write songs too, or to modify them. See if you can get to a gig with local bands to watch them, and listen and then get ideas from what they're playing. If your band goes all well and you end up playing gigs, you'd best not just stand there and play stuff, go crazy :smash:

Like you I've been playing for a year too, but I've kinda ignored the theory part of things and I only know pentatonics. Learning scales and doing excercises helps, maybe try learning sticky fingers (google search a tab for it).

[Alive]

So this would mean you'd be doing an official exam through some form of examination board?

Do you mean what do you need to cover (i.e. something along the lines of what I wrote up for you for grade 3 theory exams and practice exams some time back), or just how the exam works?

Yeah, I meant what is the actual exam likes, how it works, what it consists of etc

I'm probably not going to think about doing it until next year, but I may as well plan ahead.