Avant-Garde Jazz

[lit_girl11]

Well i hear the term "avant-garde" quite often and i have come upon the realization that i have no idea what the hell it means. can anyone explain what this means?

[Zappa]

In jazz, "avant-garde" basically means weird structurally, harmonically, and rhythmically, but not completely devoid of chordal improv.

EDIT: I should elaborate. By weird, I mean that the harmonies tend to be dissonant and not reminiscent of old bop chords, and the rhythms tend to be more disjointed and less swinging. The drums in avant-garde tend to be all over the place, with a lot less of that typical swing style going on. The structure of the tunes can be different, but isn't always. You get less head/solos/head in avant-garde, I think.

Avant-garde, in a lot of ways, is free jazz without the total lack of rules

[joshmay]

avant-garde by definition has no definition, music that is cutting-edge and above and beyond the current movements. experimental, improvisational, and avant-garde styles of playing all overlap.



i'm not well-versed enough in jazz, though, as some here are, to define for you the avant-garde movement and its relation to jazz music.

[StrangelyBrewed13]

avant-garde means "advance group". Its basically Jazz without the rules. Its defined a lot as free Jazz but its a little bit more. A lot of times it gives soloists a lot more freedom.

[lit_girl11]

ah ha well it makes a lot more sense now. thanks!

[DemBonez]

avant-garde means "advance group". Its basically Jazz without the rules. Its defined a lot as free Jazz but its a little bit more. A lot of times it gives soloists a lot more freedom.

No. Avant-Garde Jazz isn't Free Jazz, don't make that mistake. They may overlap (alot) but they are still two separate ideas. Avant-Garde Jazz is basically music with limited structure but the improvisations are completely void of the conventional rules. There is a common idea behind all of the players as to what the sound should roughly be, and they take it from there where their hearts whim. (The idea behind) Free Jazz is just no rules. The improvisations, the rhythms, the pitches, the development, etc that the musicians pick aren't restricted by their conventional rules. This isn't to say that all Free Jazz doesn't have a groove or some sort of pulse.

Oddly enough Avant-Garde (non-jazz style) is closer to Free Jazz than Avant-Garde Jazz.

[lit_girl11]

theres a difference between 'avant-garde' and 'avant-garde jazz'?

[Zappa]

theres a difference between 'avant-garde' and 'avant-garde jazz'?

Yeah.

[StrangelyBrewed13]

No. Avant-Garde Jazz isn't Free Jazz, don't make that mistake. They may overlap (alot) but they are still two separate ideas. Avant-Garde Jazz is basically music with limited structure but the improvisations are completely void of the conventional rules. There is a common idea behind all of the players as to what the sound should roughly be, and they take it from there where their hearts whim. (The idea behind) Free Jazz is just no rules. The improvisations, the rhythms, the pitches, the development, etc that the musicians pick aren't restricted by their conventional rules. This isn't to say that all Free Jazz doesn't have a groove or some sort of pulse.

Oddly enough Avant-Garde (non-jazz style) is closer to Free Jazz than Avant-Garde Jazz.


Okay fair enough.

[Bryan Blakey]

See: Miles Davis 2nd Quintet

[StrangelyBrewed13]

See: Miles Davis 2nd Quintet

No, see "The Avant-Garde" from John Coltrane & Done Cherry.

[Eman Ruoy]

No see Out to Lunch! by Eric Dolphy.

[Zappa]

No see Out to Lunch! by Eric Dolphy.

Theeeeere we go.

[StrangelyBrewed13]

No see Out to Lunch! by Eric Dolphy.


Even better!

[LTJ386]

I've had a strange curiousity to listen to some free jazz. The idea of everything being improvised intrigues me. Can anyone reccomend me some free jazz artists to listen/hook me up with recordings?

[Eman Ruoy]

Well, first. You can just search for it on google. Or type "free jazz" in amazon, and you'll probably find Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz"

[stoned_rat]

mr. bungle are avant-garde arent that???
if so, go out immediately and buy California by Mr Bungle, its one of the best albums ive ever heard..

However, if Mr Bungle are not avant-garde.....then.... go out immediately and buy it, because its one of the best albums ive ever heard.

[Arclite1]

No see Out to Lunch! by Eric Dolphy.

Good choice.

[jake plays guitar]

ah ha well it makes a lot more sense now. thanks!
Glad we could help!

[Eman Ruoy]

avant guarde by definition doesn't mean "no rules" it means, "new". doesn't it?

[Samuel]

No see Out to Lunch! by Eric Dolphy.
Yeeessssss.

Man I love that album.

[pipe]

check out Ascencion by Trane, or some Pharaoh Sanders

[what]

Basically the jazz avant-garde movement, or "The New Thing" happened in the 60's, it was mostly driven by Coltrane and the musicians around him... I guess you could stick Sun Ra and Ornette Coleman there too...

[Grant]

Check out anything Eric Dolphy ever touched. That guy pushed Coltrane to his creative zenith, made Mingus even more versatile as a composer and improviser and broke down barriers with his solo career. Along with ol' Rahsaan, he is my favourite saxophonist.

[Eman Ruoy]

A bit different, but listen to LaFaro's playing in the Bill Evans albums.

[Silent King]

I play a type of Avant Garde music It's kind of experimental jazz if you want to get an idea of what it sounds like you can hear it at www.cdbaby.com/jakstoni

[HazMan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde

I tend to quote wikipedia too often. However it seems means music that think forward and tries to break boundaries. It is anti-art in some senses by throwing away convention, such as the Dada movement in art. An example of a band using Dada ideas is Fantomas.

Try some John Zorn or Mr Bungle for some forms of advant-garde jazz.

[Iai]

Where precisely does John Zorn fit into this, out of interest?

[Silent King]

I was wondering if any one has heard of Sun Ra he is a great Avant Garde musician.

[lit_girl11]

I was wondering if any one has heard of Sun Ra he is a great Avant Garde musician.

i have. his stuff is waaaaaaay out there. i cant decide if i like it or not

[baggagebassman]

See Monoceros by Evan Parker

[amp7325]

Andrew Hill's "Point of Departure" is basically my definition of avant-garde.
Andrew Hill, Eric Dolphy, Joe Henderson, Kenny Dorham, Richard Davis, Tony Williams. In my mind it's the quintessential avant-garde album. I seriously think I orgasmed after Dolphy's solo in the first song.

[Zappa]

Andrew Hill's "Point of Departure" is basically my definition of avant-garde.
Andrew Hill, Eric Dolphy, Joe Henderson, Kenny Dorham, Richard Davis, Tony Williams. In my mind it's the quintessential avant-garde album. I seriously think I orgasmed after Dolphy's solo in the first song.

Great album. For a more piano-y album, seek out Hill's Black Fire.

[Mailman]

Try Interstellar Space - Coltrane.

I cried a little that this is the last thing he left the world with. Practically unlistenable.

[jazzfromhell]

Try Interstellar Space - Coltrane.

I cried a little that this is the last thing he left the world with. Practically unlistenable.


It wasn't his last recording, although it was arguably his last masterpiece/great recording. It's a fantastic album, I don't find it unlistenable at all when I'm in the mood for that sort of music. Rashied Ali's drumming is incredible, I try and imitate it all the time.

[jazzfunkboy]

basically, if you like avant garde, check out these guys:

john coltrane
pharoah sanders
eric dolphy
rahsaan roland kirk
albert ayler
alice coltrane ("ptah, the el daoud" is one of the greatest albums...)
ornette coleman

there are certainly more, but these are some of my favs.

[jazzfunkboy]

Try Interstellar Space - Coltrane.

I cried a little that this is the last thing he left the world with. Practically unlistenable.


well interstellar space is my fav of his studio albums! its all perspective.

but, love it or hate it, its worth hearing.

[Kayetan]

well interstellar space is my fav of his studio albums! its all perspective.

but, love it or hate it, its worth hearing.
Yeah, I never really understood how that album can be so chaotic and so relaxing at the same time. It's pretty great.

[halfdeadhippo]

Would Sun Ra count as avant-garde? Or would his music be considered free jazz? I've heard Eric Dolphy's Out to Lunch! so I know what avant-garde sounds like. I've never heard any free jazz, so I wouldn't know the difference if I heard it.

[jazzfromhell]

Would Sun Ra count as avant-garde? Or would his music be considered free jazz? I've heard Eric Dolphy's Out to Lunch! so I know what avant-garde sounds like. I've never heard any free jazz, so I wouldn't know the difference if I heard it.


There're three general areas of "outside" jazz, to my knowledge the rules work something like this:

Avant-Garde Jazz - Keeps a tempo, but ignores key, harmony, etc. Starts by playing an actual song, then just goes into free soloing.

Free Jazz - Same as Avant-Garde, but doesn't have to keep a tempo (although it can). Songs are written, but usually only contain a "theme" (as in, a short melody or chorus).

Free Imrovisation - No rules whatsoever (no tempo, no key/harmonics, no songwriting, etc.), and no previous preperation. Fully based on instant, original ideas formed while playing. Some free improv musicians don't even talk to each other before and after playing.


Sun Ra, I believe, would go under Avant-Garde.

[halfdeadhippo]

Thanks, man.

edit: Are you the same jazzfromhell from Music Banter?

[Magicaltroll]

There're three general areas of "outside" jazz, to my knowledge:

Avant-Garde Jazz - Keeps a tempo, but ignores key, harmony, etc. Starts by playing an actual song, then just goes into free soloing.

Free Jazz - Same as Avant-Garde, but doesn't have to keep a tempo (although it can). Songs are written, but usually only contain a "theme" (as in, a short melody or chorus).

Free Imrovisation - No rules whatsoever (no tempo, no key/harmonics, no songwriting, etc.), and no previous preperation. Fully based on instant, original ideas formed while playing. Some free improv musicians don't even talk to each other before and after playing.


Sun Ra, I believe, would go under Avant-Garde.
Isn't Ephel Duath almost like Free Improvisation?

[halfdeadhippo]

Isn't Ephel Duath almost like Free Improvisation?
If we're thinking of the same Ephel Duath, then no. They may not follow a verse/chorus/verse structure, but they aren't unstructured.

[Magicaltroll]

If we're thinking of the same Ephel Duath, then no. They may not follow a verse/chorus/verse structure, but they aren't unstructured.
Well, there are certainly parts that are unstructured.

[halfdeadhippo]

Yeah, but most of the song was written before it was recorded. Free Improvisation would be if the band just got together and recorded without any prior discussion or arrangement as to how the song would sound. Regardless of how many unstructured parts a piece has, if it's got any sort of structure, it's not free improvisation.

[jazzfromhell]

edit: Are you the same jazzfromhell from Music Banter?



Yes. I noticed your name was familiar from Music Banter, as well, but you asked before I did.


I haven't heard Ephel Duath, so I can't comment.

[Zappa]

This thread makes me hurt a little bit.

[jazzfromhell]

What hurts about it (I'm not challenging, I want to hear what you've got to say)? I'll be the first to admit that I'm far from being an expert on jazz, and if anything I've said is incorrect, I want to know.

[Zappa]

It's not a matter of "correct or incorrect," which is the problem here. Everyone you ask has a different idea of free and avant-garde jazz, and its ambiguity upsets me.

[The Minstrel in the Gallery]

Henry Cow=Good Avant Garde band.

[Joseph India]

Please don't be discouraged by my long response. The way I see it, "avant garde" just means "the leaders of a new or unconventional movement" mostly used to describe artists (this has been said in an earlier post). But some people choose to use "avant garde" to describe something more specific, in this case a form of music that was very new in the late 50's and early 60's (and though it's "old" now, it's still very exciting). They try to describe too many types of music to be defined under one name, hence the ambiguity. I wish there were a more accurate way to define the music everyone is trying to say is avante garde but basically there isn't. So I continue to call it all avant garde for lack of a more universally understandable term. That is how I see things, maybe it's a little cluttered. Questions or disagreements? Let's hear it. Was that too long?
Also, glad to find some people with a passion for Dolphy, that's where it's at.
If you dig avant garde, I recommend listening to Meditations (don't be fooled by the title) from Coltrane, I think it's his best work.
Much respect to you good people

[onenationunderagroove]

everyones mentioning coltrane, what are some good avant-garde coltrane albums?

[jazzfromhell]

everyones mentioning coltrane, what are some good avant-garde coltrane albums?

A Love Supreme
The Complete '61 Live at the Village Vanguard Recordings
Ascension
Interstellar Regions
Medidations (or First Meditations, some of the tracks are the same, others are different)
Sun Ship

[jazzfunkboy]

A Love Supreme
The Complete '61 Live at the Village Vanguard Recordings
Ascension
Interstellar Regions
Medidations (or First Meditations, some of the tracks are the same, others are different)
Sun Ship


interstellar regions does not exist haha

theres

interstellar space
and stellar regions

i think! the names are so close. but they are both excellent. the olutunji concert is incredible too, though the soundquality is bad. live in japan is also very very good.

[jazzfromhell]

interstellar regions does not exist haha

theres

interstellar space
and stellar regions

i think! the names are so close. but they are both excellent. the olutunji concert is incredible too, though the soundquality is bad. live in japan is also very very good.


Yeah, you're right. I always get the two confused.

[I Love Fat women]

I find interstellar space to be quite easy to listen to, since it's pretty much only sax and percussion, it's alot less cluttered than for example "free jazz" by Ornette Coleman.

Another great avant album that you should all check out, if you haven't already, is Naked City by John Zorn.

[amp7325]

Andrew Hill's album "Point of Departure basically perfectly demonstrates avant garde. Andrew Hill on piano, Kenny Dorham on trumpet, Joe Henderson on tenor, Eric Dolphy on different reeds, Richard Davis on bass, and Tony Williams on drums. It's one of my favorite albums, and it really says a lot about the avant garde style.

Andrew Hill is, to me, a huge chapter of avant garde jazz that people shouldn't miss.

[Etruscan]

I'm trying to find the song (or at least the artist who performs it) that accompanies the first part of this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7640566493239891040

Anyone that can help, please let me know.

[jazzfromhell]

^I don't know what it is, but it certainly isn't avant-garde jazz.

[Etruscan]

Hmmm... ok then - I've never been good with classifying things - what would you call it instead?

[Joseph India]

it certainly isn't avant-garde jazz?
I disagree. This is a perfect example of the most amazing avant garde jazz I have ever heard. This man went through a lot of trouble, I mean he registered just to post this, and we should thank him for being so cool. BRAVO!

[Etruscan]

Hey, no need to be cruel and berrating. I don't usually visit forums about music, though I'm a musician and a music fan myself. I found this song, it drove me nuts for a few hours, and I finally decided to try and co-opt some help.

If you've got anything productive to add... let me know.

[Joseph India]

I'm sorry but it diidn't seem possible that you could be serious.
Have a listen at one of the musicians mentioned in this thread and I think you'll understand why.

[antiant]

Another great avant album that you should all check out, if you haven't already, is Naked City by John Zorn.
yeah the first time i think of anything avant-garde John Zorn is basically the one...check him out here http://www.tzadik.com/