chord building [Archive] - Music & Musician Forums

judge_gideon

12-20-2005, 09:16 PM

I'm sure there are several of us working on this post simultaneously ;)

Your question is a good one.

If you examine the notes of a C major scale on a single string, each note has a number:

C Major Scale

├─C─┼───┼─D─┼───┼─E─┼─F─┼───┼─G─┼───┼─A─┼───┼─B─┼─ C─┤
..root........2nd.......3rd...4th........5th...... ...6th.......7th....root

The "root" is also called the "tonic" or the "1". When you reach the next "root" note, it's called an "octave", since you count up to seven, and then you reach the 8th note. The 8th note is treated as the new "1st" note, because the scale starts over again.

Your question is about 3rd. It's the third note in the major scale.
The same applies to the 5th. It's the fifth note in the major scale.

The reason why it's called a "perfect fifth" is because of Gregorian Monks. They constructed a system of musical notation which laid the foundation for the development of western music theory until the present time. They were funded by the Catholic Church, and had instructions to find the most symetrical and amiable musical forms for the purpose of worship music. The consonace (relatively nice-sounding quality) of the root combined with the 5th was believed to be "perfect" and the most pleasing to GOD's ears.

Each of the scale degrees can be "shifted" either up or down in pitch to create new ones.

A major 3rd differs from a minor 3rd, because a minor scale has different note patterns - the same 7 notes are shifted into different places.

C Major Scale
├─C─┼───┼─D─┼───┼─E─┼─F─┼───┼─G─┼───┼─A─┼───┼─B─┼─ C─┤
..root........2nd.......3rd...4th........5th...... ...6th.......7th....root

C Minor Scale
├─C─┼───┼─D─┼─Eb─┼───┼─F─┼───┼─G─┼─Ab─┼───┼─Bb─┼── ─┼─C─┤
..root.......2nd...3rd.........4th.........5th...6 th..........7th........root

Notice the differences:
The 3rd, 6th, and 7th of the minor scale is flat. (Flat means shifted down a halfstep).

Counting upward in the scale 3 notes, you will reach the 3rd. But, depending on the scale, it will be a different third. A major third is what it is because of its scale pattern, as is the case with a minor third.

The C Major Chord is:
C,E,G = root,major 3rd, perfect 5th

The C Minor Chord is:
C,Eb,G = root, minor 3rd, perfect 5th

If you grasp this, you have come a long way. :D
♪ ♫♫♪

DRAGON_MASTER

12-20-2005, 10:01 PM

yea that made perfect sense but i had to read some parts like ten times, but thank you i wish everyone gave answers liek that. also, do you have any tips for trying to learn theory without taking lessons, i know lessons are good but i like learning by myself, with maybe a little bit of extra help.

judge_gideon

12-21-2005, 09:11 AM

DRAGON_MASTER, yes, keep asking good questions - and don't hesitate. This is the best way to learn theory. And if you think about it, this is taking lessons ;) only it's free!

I just got off work, so I had to wait to answer you. I wanted to continue the idea of the difference between a major 3rd, and a minor 3rd.

So far, we have covered how the notes a C major scale, and a C minor scale line up on an individual single string. That's straight up the neck on one string. You definately need to know how scale patterns work like this - vertically.

But, guitars have more than one string, which means you have to traverse the strings from one to the next. You can find the same vertical string pattern laid out on multiple strings - and I'm sure you've seen scales on multiple strings. That's what we're talking about.

But, it is vital to be able to locate a major 3rd on another string. If you have memorized the vertical pattern, then you're ready to move on to finding the same major 3rd, minor 3rd, and the rest of the scale degrees on adjacent strings. Without this, you cannot do any logical chord building.

• = root
• = 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th

If you will refer to the linear diagrams I posted earlier - the vertical ascending major scale up a single string, then you'll see how these correllate. All of our root notes will be C just for our learning examples. The key of C major helps you learn music theory, because it has no sharps & no flats. When you begin to add sharps & flats, then you'll see the theoretical alterations occurring. It's like starting with a white, blank canvas.

Minor 2nd
┌───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┘
...........................................root

and here's the tab for a minor 2nd:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────4────┼───────4─────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Major 2nd
┌───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┘
...........................................root

and here's the tab for a major 2nd:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────5────┼───────5─────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Minor 3rd
┌───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┘
...........................................root

and here's the tab for a minor 3rd:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────6────┼───────6─────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Major 3rd
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┘
...........................................root

and here's the tab for a major 3rd:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────7────┼───────7─────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Perfect 4th
┌───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for a perfect 4th:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────8────┼───────8─────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Augmented 4th/Diminished 5th
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for an augmented 4th/diminished 5th:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────9────┼───────9─────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Perfect 5th
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for a perfect 5th:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────10───┼───────10────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

...continued in next post.

♪ ♫♫♪

judge_gideon

12-21-2005, 09:11 AM

Minor 6th
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┐
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for a minor 6th:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────11───┼───────11────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Major 6th
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬─•─┐
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for a major 6th:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────12───┼───────12────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Minor 7th
┌───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for a minor 7th:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────8────┼───────8─────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Major 7th
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┐
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for a major 7th:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────9────┼───────9─────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Octave
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┐
├───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
└───┴───┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
...........................root

and here's the tab for an octave:
┌───────────┬─────────────┐
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
├──────10───┼───────10────┤
├───────────┼─────────────┤
└───8───────┴───────8─────┘
......individually.........simultaneously

Well, that pretty much exhausts all 12 intervals - full chromatic harmony! With each of these intervals, you can build any chord you wish, and know what it is made of.
♪ ♫♫♪

Lightning_Rider

12-21-2005, 09:16 AM

Judge, when you said that each scale might have a different 3rd, are you referring to intervals, a major third or a minor third? Which would depend on which interval the 3rd note falls on, from the root, which varies from scale to scale?

Just wanna make sure I got this correctly and don't have any wrong ideas.

EDIT: Heh, I guess you just answered it, I only saw your first post before I posted. So I guess I was right. :)

Trigger_003

12-21-2005, 04:34 PM

I'm sure there are several of us working on this post simultaneously
Stop Stealing My Threads! :angry:

Nah, just kidding; good stuff as usual :). I'm on the edge of my download limit for this month so I won't be posting much until boxing day :upset:.

And yeah, TS, you can pretty much take lessons via here and other sites. If you want, I can provide a list of basically all the topics you are required to know for grade 1 & 2 (and further when you getpast there if you want - the grades go up to 8) theory. From there you can state what topics you know already, and then ask about an area that you have no idea about. In doing an explanation, we'll probably cover some other topics as well, so that you can fully grasp it.

It'll give Greg, Gav and I something to do :p.

DRAGON_MASTER

12-21-2005, 05:08 PM

k, its really useful just hard to understadn at first
Should i work on learning to memorize the notes on the fretboard?, because it seems impossible, i mean i can figure them out i just have to count down or up and it takes a while. Can u guys just hit a fret and name the note that it is?

DRAGON_MASTER

12-21-2005, 05:34 PM

i just slowly went through all those posts and understadn them finally, what do you suggest for my next step?

Trigger_003

12-21-2005, 05:40 PM

I find the most effective way to get people to be able to recognise the fretboard is to teach them how to read and play standard notation.

This will assist you a lot in theory too - it's so much easier to understand theory when you're learning it with the assistance of notation. When you get into the more advanced stuff, you're really going to be pushed trying to attempt it any other way too, but scales, chords, etc. take a whole lot more effort if you don't know how to work with notation.

If you want me to go into that more, I will, but I should really go at the moment.

There are some other tools as well though. Google "fretboard warrior". It's a freeware program that gets you to name the notes on various frets within a certain timeframe.

DRAGON_MASTER

12-21-2005, 05:43 PM

ya cuz everytime i see a note i have t count it out on the fretboard its just really time consuming, i have the fretboard warrior program i just never use it i gues i should

Trigger_003

12-21-2005, 05:52 PM

i just slowly went through all those posts and understadn them finally, what do you suggest for my next step?

I'm going to list topics up to grade three instead, because I don't have time to re-do this list to a lower level. I'll highlight some of the grade three topics though (in red) so just ignore those until you get some of the more basic ones.

Here are the topics you'll need to know for your grade 3 theory exam:
Intervals (you better get used to them being played seperately);
The names of the scale degrees (Tonic, Supertonic, Mediant, Subdominant, Dominant, Submediant, Leading note, Tonic)
Key signatures (learn the Father Charles etc. (FCGDAEB) idea - it'll be really useful. I'll explain this if you like)
Various major & minor scales (including their relatives)... along with their tetrachords
Triads: what makes a major/minor triad, the diatonic triads (tonic and dominant in particular), and triads in first inversionTiming: note names and values, various simple and compound time signatures, duplets, triplets, dotted notes/rests... (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318711 basically, a lot of stuff from this thread)
What some things like a fermata, accent, tenuto, staccato and so on do to notes and their lengths...
Form: coda, dal segno, etc. (http://tdknights.com/trea/coda.htm), rondo, perfect & plagal cadences
Writing: 4-part vocal style, piano (also known as pianoforte) style, transposition to another key, being able to read/write in treble AND bass clef, constructing a rhythm pattern from words/sylables, and then constructing a melody from words as well.
Some Italian terms such as such as forte (f) = loud, piano (p) = soft, mezzo piano (mp) = moderately soft, mezzo forte (mf) = moderately loud, legato = smooth, andante = walking pace, ralletando (rall.) = gradually slower, allegro = fast, lively, cantabile = in a singing style, etc. etc. etc.
That's basically what you'll need to know for grade three. You can have a look at musictheory.net for most of those, or ask us on here.

So yeah, work your way through musictheory.net and ask us when you come to a problem. Ask here for anything that isn't covered on musictheory.net or in the links I threw in :).

DRAGON_MASTER

12-21-2005, 06:26 PM

wow that is a workload. how long do you suppose it would take to get through a grade of it? and you say that this is the third grade, does that mean i pretty much know everything less than that? lol it seems every answer i get more and more questions pop in my head.

And another one that popped up when i tried making some chords of my own, i guess not really my own but just building them from the formula.

so i took te c major scale
cdefgabc

and i was trying to make a triad out of every note and just go through scales that way for a bit to really get a grasp on everything. I can construct them in the way that i know it would be c,e,g then d,f,a then e,g,b and so on but when i tried playing them i noticed that the same note (i mean the same named note like a,b,c) can be found all over the fretboard. so when i am trying to play a triad like D minor d,f,e which strings should be used, is it just anywhere you can possible fret the notes because in some cases the next string down is way across the board. so how do you decide what string to use?

Steerpike

12-21-2005, 07:02 PM

wow trhat is a workload. how long do you suppose it would take to get through a grade of it? and you say that this is the third grade, does that mean i pretty much know everything less than that? lol it seems every answer i get more and more questions pop in my head.

I felt the same when I started learning theory. It's natural. "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" was a help, but most of it I just absorb piece by piece.

Don't worry about trying to take it all in at once, you'll just bog yourself down. What you have right now is probably enough to work on a few basic compositions. Whenever you have more questions, just ask.

If it's any help, the way my teacher got me started on theory was to memorize a scale, the position on the fretboard, and work on composing with that at first. From there, he taught me a few classic chord progressions and how they work in the scale, and let me play with those.

For example:

|--------------------------------5--8--|
|--------------------------5--8--------|
|--------------------5--7--------------|
|--------------5--7--------------------|
|--------5--7--------------------------|
|--5--8--------------------------------|

There's the A minor pentatonic. Fairly easy to learn. Take your time getting a feel for that and learning the notes.

This is just my take on it, though. I really have a lot of repsect for the guys around here who offer consistently great takes on music theory, but I prefer to take a departure from some of the more conventional methods of learning it.

DRAGON_MASTER

12-21-2005, 07:08 PM

dealing with scales what is the a minor pentatonic mean, and why are those notes in it, what relation do they share, and please look at my question i added on post 13

judge_gideon

12-21-2005, 07:46 PM

First, you want to look at Major Pentatonic. It's the 1,2,3,5,6 of the major scale.

So, C major pentatonic is:
C,D,E,G,A
the degrees are:
1,2,3,5,6

It's simple. Penta = 5; Tonic = tone or note. It's a 5-note scale.

With Minor Pentatonic, you must remember what a "relative minor" is. If you don't already know, the "relative minor" is the chord or scale located a step-and-a-half below the major root. In C major, that would be A minor.

So, using Minor Pentatonic requires you to build the same C major pentatonic scale a step-and-a-half below the major root, like this:
A,C,D,E,G
The degrees are:
1,b3,4,5,b7

They are the same notes in C major pentatonic, but you begin a step-and-a-half below the C, on the A. Then you are playing A minor pentatonic.

Steerpike

12-21-2005, 08:29 PM

dealing with scales what is the a minor pentatonic mean, and why are those notes in it, what relation do they share, and please look at my question i added on post 13

Well to answer that question you edited in, play whatever notes in triad are within reach. The most common way to play a C major chord chord for example is:

E|--0--|
B|--1--|
G|--0--|
D|--2--|
A|--3--|
E|-----|

It covers the triad and repeats notes to add more richness to the sound. The root note (C) forms the bass at the A string. The major 3rd (E) is played on D, and the open G provides the fifth degree. You could just stop there, but it sounds much nicer to play C an octave higher on the B string and play the open high E for an octaved major third.

Trigger_003

12-21-2005, 08:33 PM

Pentatonic means 5 tones; the pentatonic is a scale with five different notes.
Because it is minor, it has a sad feel to it.

Scales are sets of corresponding notes in an order - as you probably know. You've more than likely learnt the major, harmonic and/or natural minor scales.
The pentatonic is just like that; it's another series of notes strung together to form a scale.

There are loads of different scales available to you, but most people start off with the major and harmonic minor as they occur so constantly within western music.

The pentatonics are like simpler versions of these. Instead of 7 different notes, they only contain 5.

You already know, by the looks of it, how to construct a major scale (let me know if you don't), so I hope we can just jump straight into how to create a major pentatonic .

Take C major: CDEFGAB
The pattern for the major pentatonic is to use the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 6th degrees (notes) of the major scale. i.e. CDEFGAB
This is just a pattern that, like the other scales, you need to memorise.

Now the C minor pentatonic has to use a different forumla, in order for it to create a different sound to its major counterpart. And that formula is 1, b3, 4, 5, b7.
Apply this to C and you get C, Eb F, G, Bb.

wow that is a workload. how long do you suppose it would take to get through a grade of it? and you say that this is the third grade, does that mean i pretty much know everything less than that? lol it seems every answer i get more and more questions pop in my head.

Woah, sorry. When I said third grade, that's what you need to be able to take a grade three exam. The grounding and basics from the 2 grades before it are going to be required - i.e. those are all the topics you cover between knowing no theory and finishing up grade three... those aren't topics solely from grade three! Sorry to scare you there.

And really, it isn't as much as it seems. It took me less than 2 weeks to get through grade one and what... half of grade two? - the concepts in the lower levels really don't take long to learn once you get the hang of it.
You keep getting questions because you don't have a thorough background in this yet. But once you do, it'll be a breeze to race through up to third grade.

For instance, learning the concept of a tetrachord. A tetrachord is simply either the first four or last four notes of a scale such as natural minor or major.
There, now you more or less know one of those topics completely.

And the next topic, the scale degrees:
The first note in the scale is the tonic,
the second is the supertonic,
third is the mediant,
forth - subdominant,
fifth - dominant,
sixth - submediant,
seventh - leading note,
and then you're back to the tonic when you hit the octave note again.
All you have to do is memorise those names and be able to identify them, and you've just done another topic.

As for your question on applying your chord theory to guitar, there are loads of ways you can play the same chord - they're just what are called different voicings.
Basically, as long as you incorporate at least one of every note required in the chord, you have created that chord in some form or another. When you get further into theory you will discover different ways to construct chords - like inversions, open/closed/piano voicings, four-part vocal style, etc.

This is where it's good to know notation.
If you're creating the Cmaj triad, and wanting to put that onto guitar, you can just write that out in notation, and then apply it to guitar.
The triad you will be attempting to construct is what is called a closed chord - the notes won't be in octaves all over the place but more or less contained within the single octave (give or take in some circumstances).

You would write it out in notation as such:

|-------
|
|-------
|
|-------
|
|-O---- <-G
|
|-O---- <- E

-O- <-C (this note is on a ledger line - it's off the bottom of the stave... just pointing that out for you as not everyone realises)

The C, for instance, you can play on A|3, E on D|2 and G|4 for the B
i.e.
e|
B|
G|0
D|2
A|3
E|
This is how it would be played as a triad. However, you can add to this by repeating notes. To play this as an arpeggio, we would add the octave note (a C played on B|1). And, just because we're used to it, we'll put in that extra E (open E string) - making our chord
e|-0
B|-1
G|-0
D|-2
A|-3
E|-x

But yeah, theoretically, you should just play the triad there at the moment.

Write those chords out in notation, then head over to http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=65. At the bottom of that lesson, there are some diagrams showing the tab/notational relationship between notes, which should assist you in playing the exact triads and possible other chords that you are actually constructing there.

Hope that helps :thumb:.

EDIT: Haha, slow :upset:

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-21-2005, 11:44 PM

If you're ever away from your guitar and want to know what a certain interval is:

The following intervals exist:

Minor second
Major second
Minor third
Major third
Diminished fourth
Perfect fourth
Augmented fourth
Diminished fifth
Perfect fifth
Augmented fifth
Minor sixth
Major sixth
Minor seventh
Major seventh
Diminshed octave
Perfect octave
Augmented octave.

Now, here is the simplest way (IMO) to find out what note is any given interval away from the note you've been given.

Say you have the note C, well...

-A minor second from C is the note DIRECTLY NEXT TO IT, so C to Db is a minor second.

-A major second from C can be found by taking the second note in a C major scale, which you should know is D.

-A minor third from C can be found by taking the third note in a C minor scale, which you should know is Eb.

-A major third from C can be found by taking the third note in a C major scale, which you should know is E (notice how it's just a minor third, raised half a step?).

-A diminished fourth is the same as a major third, and can be found by either finding out the third note in a C major scale, or taking a perfect fourth and flattening it. From this, you should know that C to Fb is a diminished fourth.

-A perfect fourth is the fourth note in the C major or minor scales (seeing as they are the same note). With this, we should be able to determine that C to F is a perfect fourth.

-An augmented fourth is the fourth note in the C major or minor scales, just raised one half-step. With this, we should know that C to F# is an augmented fourth.

-A diminished fifth is the same as an augmented fourth. From this, we know that we can just take a fourth and raise it. Similarly, we can take a fifth from the major or minor scale (seeing as they are the same note in both scales) and flatten it by one half step. With this, we know that C to Gb is a diminished fifth.

-A perfect fifth is the fifth note in the major or minor scales, because like the fourth, the fifth is the same in both major and minor scales (thus giving it the "perfect" quality). With this, we should know that C to G is a perfect fifth.

-An augmented fifth is the fifth note in the major/minor scale, simply raised half a step. With this knowledge, we know that C to G# is an augmented fifth.

-A minor sixth can be determined by taking the sixth note from the C minor scale. With this, we know that C to Ab is a minor sixth (yes, it's the same as an augmented fifth).

-A major sixth is found out the same way as a minor sixth, instead we take the sixth note from the major scale. From this, we know that C to A is a major sixth.

-A minor seventh is found out by constructing a C minor scale and taking the seventh note from that scale. Or you can just count two half-steps down from the C. With this, you know that C to Bb is a minor seventh.

-A major seventh is found out by constructing a C major scale and taking the seventh note from that scale. Or, you can just count one half-step down from the C. With this, you know that C to B is a major seventh.

-A diminished octave is the same as a major seventh, but you would write it as C to Cb. /me is lazy

-A perfect octave is the exact same note, one octave higher. In otherwords, C to C, or...

G|-5-
D|---
A|-3-

Or 261.6Hz to 523.2Hz :p.

-An augmented octave is the same as a minor second, except that minor second is raised an octave higher, yet our root note (the "C") remains in the same octave. With this, we know that C to C# (8va) is an augmented octave.

-----

Of course, you can just throw aside all the hard-work I put into that post and use this, seemingly, archaic method of interval distinction:

http://tinypic.com/a4pr7r.jpg

I'm sorry it's a bit distorted, but you should be able to read the numbers.

The numbers correspond to how many halfsteps/semitones/frets the given interval is from any note you choose as the root.

EDIT: Remember that things like augmented sixths and the like exist, but I'm not going to bother going into those.

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-21-2005, 11:45 PM

Greg, I was taught that "perfect" intervals were named so because they remain perfect when inverted... ?

DRAGON_MASTER

12-22-2005, 12:12 AM

I felt the same when I started learning theory. It's natural. "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory" was a help, but most of it I just absorb piece by piece.

Don't worry about trying to take it all in at once, you'll just bog yourself down. What you have right now is probably enough to work on a few basic compositions. Whenever you have more questions, just ask.

If it's any help, the way my teacher got me started on theory was to memorize a scale, the position on the fretboard, and work on composing with that at first. From there, he taught me a few classic chord progressions and how they work in the scale, and let me play with those.

For example:

|--------------------------------5--8--|
|--------------------------5--8--------|
|--------------------5--7--------------|
|--------------5--7--------------------|
|--------5--7--------------------------|
|--5--8--------------------------------|

There's the A minor pentatonic. Fairly easy to learn. Take your time getting a feel for that and learning the notes.

This is just my take on it, though. I really have a lot of repsect for the guys around here who offer consistently great takes on music theory, but I prefer to take a departure from some of the more conventional methods of learning it.

i was just going over this with my guitar in hand trying to do things so my eyes can see them and i noticed that your a minor pentatonic the first two notes are A, C
i have written down that the A min scale goes ABCDEFG, and if that is true the pentatonic version should read A,Cb,D,E,Gb using the 1,b3,4,5,b7 pattern in the other response. so why isnt it a Cb?
Sorry i just have to make everything crystal clear in my head

I also noticed on a site that makes scales for you that most all the notes are within a four fret range. Is this somewhat the standard for scales or are some scales all over the place?

Also like playing the scale of c major it came up not starting on c, it started on f because it was the first fret on loe E string. Can you start scales with any note you want within the scale?

sorry if these questions are repetitive or if they dont make a difference, but it helps me out. Thanks

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 01:22 AM

i was just going over this with my guitar in hand trying to do things so my eyes can see them and i noticed that your a minor pentatonic the first two notes are A, C
i have written down that the A min scale goes ABCDEFG, and if that is true the pentatonic version should read A,Cb,D,E,Gb using the 1,b3,4,5,b7 pattern in the other response. so why isnt it a Cb?
Sorry i just have to make everything crystal clear in my head
The "1, b3, 4, 5, b7" applies to the major scale.

So, A major 1 3 4 5 7 would be A, C#, D, E, G#. That way, A minor 1 3 4 5 7 is A, C, D, E, G.

I also noticed on a site that makes scales for you that most all the notes are within a four fret range. Is this somewhat the standard for scales or are some scales all over the place?
Well you need to take into consideration that on guitar...

A|---and--0-|
E|-5--------|

Are the same note. Because of this, there are numerous possibilities. They keep them in four fret ranges because it's easiest to play.[/quote]

Also like playing the scale of c major it came up not starting on c, it started on f because it was the first fret on loe E string. Can you start scales with any note you want within the scale?

sorry if these questions are repetitive or if they dont make a difference, but it helps me out. Thanks
Yeah, technically you can. They're what're called modes. But they're a little more complex.

Steerpike

12-22-2005, 01:27 AM

i was just going over this with my guitar in hand trying to do things so my eyes can see them and i noticed that your a minor pentatonic the first two notes are A, C
i have written down that the A min scale goes ABCDEFG, and if that is true the pentatonic version should read A,Cb,D,E,Gb using the 1,b3,4,5,b7 pattern in the other response. so why isnt it a Cb?
Sorry i just have to make everything crystal clear in my head

There is no such thing as Cb. There is also no Fb. C and F cannot be flat because there is no semitone between B and C or between E and F.

Just remember that there is a sharp for every note except B and E, and a flat for every note except C and F.

I also noticed on a site that makes scales for you that most all the notes are within a four fret range. Is this somewhat the standard for scales or are some scales all over the place?

Those are just convenient clusters. The scale goes all over the fretboard, but the clusters you see are just maps to find the notes.

Also like playing the scale of c major it came up not starting on c, it started on f because it was the first fret on loe E string. Can you start scales with any note you want within the scale?

When playing a scale, if the cluster ends on a note that is not the root note, you just go back across the scale until you reach the root again.

In other words, take the A minor pentatonic we showed you, play it from the low E string to the high, and then go backward until you hit the low A again.

Trigger_003

12-22-2005, 02:17 AM

I thought they were called perfect fifths and forths because they were in both major and minor scales, as are the perfect unison and perfect octave.

The "1, b3, 4, 5, b7" applies to the major scale.
This is what I explained in my post (hopefully), if you (TS, not you, Gav ;)) read it.
You take the major scale. Using this formula "language" (you can write out scale formulas in several different ways), the major scale would be written as 1234567. Basically, instead of creating a WWHWWWH or TTSTTTS (W/T = tone, H/S = half/semitone) type formula for each scale, it simplifies the process and creates a basis for you to work other scales out from.
So when you come up to a b3, it means the third degree (note) in the major scale, made flat.

i.e. you start off with the major scale, make the adjustments according to the formula, leave out any degrees not mentioned, and you'll have your new scale.

There is no such thing as Cb. There is also no Fb. C and F cannot be flat because there is no semitone between B and C or between E and F.

Just remember that there is a sharp for every note except B and E, and a flat for every note except C and F.
Actually... just like you can use double sharps (x) and flats (bb), you can legitimately call them Cb and Fb in these kinds of situations.

But yeah, Cb is ultimately a B, Fb is ultimately an E, E# is effectively an F, and B# is effectively a C.

Also like playing the scale of c major it came up not starting on c, it started on f because it was the first fret on loe E string. Can you start scales with any note you want within the scale?
If it was supposed to be a C major scale, it should have started on C and followed through to the next C (and perhaps further if it's supposed to be more than a single octave scale).
As Gav said, and I briefly mentioned above, if a scale starts on a different note than its root, it is then a mode. These can be somewhat confusing and I'd prefer you to to develop a better grounding in basic theory before attempting to grasp this particular concept.
For now, start and finish the scale on its tonic... in this example, from C through to another C.

Amit

12-22-2005, 02:19 AM

Trigger_003

12-22-2005, 02:23 AM

Oh yeah I think I remember reading that somewhere. Thanks Amit :)

Amit

12-22-2005, 02:24 AM

np whatever your name is

say, what is your name anyway

Aria.

12-22-2005, 02:57 AM

yer avgon nice huge post n stuff but they rnt the only interval that exist

and hey amit tiger 003 is trea

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 03:36 AM

yer avgon nice huge post n stuff but they rnt the only interval that exist

and hey amit tiger 003 is trea
Read the very last line.

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 03:38 AM

they're called perfect intervals because their harmonic relationship is unaffected by inversion

A P4 (A to D) inverted is a P5 (D to A)

unlike major, minor, diminished, or augmented relationships

like a M3 (A to C#) becomes a m6 (C# to A)
That's where I learnt it, :thumb:.

Trea - Amit pointed out that it's not the whole "same in major/minor", because why don't we refer to seconds as perfect seconds.

Aria.

12-22-2005, 03:42 AM

oh thats strange how did u decide which ones to include and which ones not

Aria.

12-22-2005, 03:43 AM

and dood i jus skimmed trhough and that is some haggard explaining

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 03:43 AM

Because I personally find that the augmenting/diminishing of imperfect intervals isn't something that someone just beginning to learn about intervals needs to know.

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 03:44 AM

and dood i jus skimmed trhough and that is some haggard explaining
ino its pretty bad aye

feel free to be a better one coz i cbf anymore man tbh

Aria.

12-22-2005, 03:46 AM

nah i cbf in the first place id rather not confuse a nub an id rather them learn from someone who know wot they on about

Aria.

12-22-2005, 03:46 AM

but wot u mean imnot sayin ne thinks bad or ne think i think u got the wrong idea of wot im sayhn

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 03:46 AM

massive lol

Aria.

12-22-2005, 03:48 AM

wot u lolin at avgon

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 03:48 AM

u benz

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 03:48 AM

brb

Aria.

12-22-2005, 03:50 AM

k i didnt make ne funnies but ok i gues im prety funy

Trigger_003

12-22-2005, 04:20 AM

nah i cbf in the first place id rather not confuse a nub an id rather them learn from someone who know wot they on about
/finds it hard to believe that you don't know what you're on about

And yeah, as Ben said, I'm Trea :)

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 04:52 AM

No, he's implying that I don't know what I'm on about.

Aria.

12-22-2005, 05:06 AM

no ur wrong

trea is wright

im jus sayin like if i explained i well prolly confuse them more n teach them wrong

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 05:15 AM

orite

Aria.

12-22-2005, 05:33 AM

yer mebe learn how to read a bit beter

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 06:14 AM

shut up

Lydisk

12-22-2005, 07:16 AM

I'm going to list topics up to grade three instead, because I don't have time to re-do this list to a lower level. I'll highlight some of the grade three topics though (in red) so just ignore those until you get some of the more basic ones.

Here are the topics you'll need to know for your grade 3 theory exam:
Intervals (you better get used to them being played seperately);
The names of the scale degrees (Tonic, Supertonic, Mediant, Subdominant, Dominant, Submediant, Leading note, Tonic)
Key signatures (learn the Father Charles etc. (FCGDAEB) idea - it'll be really useful. I'll explain this if you like)
Various major & minor scales (including their relatives)... along with their tetrachords
Triads: what makes a major/minor triad, the diatonic triads (tonic and dominant in particular), and triads in first inversionTiming: note names and values, various simple and compound time signatures, duplets, triplets, dotted notes/rests... (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318711 basically, a lot of stuff from this thread)
What some things like a fermata, accent, tenuto, staccato and so on do to notes and their lengths...
Form: coda, dal segno, etc. (http://tdknights.com/trea/coda.htm), rondo, perfect & plagal cadences
Writing: 4-part vocal style, piano (also known as pianoforte) style, transposition to another key, being able to read/write in treble AND bass clef, constructing a rhythm pattern from words/sylables, and then constructing a melody from words as well.
Some Italian terms such as such as forte (f) = loud, piano (p) = soft, mezzo piano (mp) = moderately soft, mezzo forte (mf) = moderately loud, legato = smooth, andante = walking pace, ralletando (rall.) = gradually slower, allegro = fast, lively, cantabile = in a singing style, etc. etc. etc.
That's basically what you'll need to know for grade three. You can have a look at musictheory.net for most of those, or ask us on here.

So yeah, work your way through musictheory.net and ask us when you come to a problem. Ask here for anything that isn't covered on musictheory.net or in the links I threw in :).

i know all of that exept tetrachords which i dont understand...is that the scale split in half thing?

judge_gideon

12-22-2005, 08:35 AM

The perfect fourth or diatessaron, abbreviated P4, is one of two commonly occurring musical intervals that span four diatonic scale degrees; the other being the augmented fourth, which is one semitone larger. The prefix perfect identifies it as belonging to the group of perfect intervals, so called because of their extremely simple pitch relationships resulting in a high degree of consonance. The perfect fourth's inversion is the perfect
fifth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fourth

and

The perfect fifth or diapente is one of three musical intervals that span five diatonic scale degrees; the others being the diminished fifth, which is one semitone smaller, and the augmented fifth, which is one semitone larger. The prefix perfect identifies it as belonging to the group of perfect intervals, so called because of their extremely simple pitch relationships resulting in a high degree of consonance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fifth

Heya Gavin :-D - haven't seen you around lately.

judge_gideon

12-22-2005, 08:44 AM

I believe the author of this thread originally wanted the tools to help him find out why minor is minor, why major is major, and how to find the differences in recognizible patterns on the neck. I think helping to visually cue him in to the visual pattern recognition is the most important thing right now. He has only recently delved into these things, so, I think we ought to cover material and directly relate it to his guitar neck.

When I first started playing, I wanted to see it in action - then I would grasp the theory behind it - sort of a "show me, don't tell me" mindset. I suspect that most beginners need this. :)
♪ ♫♫♪

Kirk's Puppet

12-22-2005, 09:09 AM

Uhh wait... a minor second is located directly beside the root? What does that mean? Isn't the minor second the second degree of the minor scale, therefore the same one as the major second of the major scale of the same root? Therefore the minor second of C would be D, isn't it?

Thanks for all the help everyone, god, I learned so much.

judge_gideon

12-22-2005, 09:28 AM

Kirk's Puppet, you ask an awesome question.

The minor second is an interval not found in the Natural Minor Scale.

Isn't that nuts?

The best way to understand this, is Natural Minor has 3 flatted notes in it:
flatted 3rd, flatted 6th, and flatted 7th.

All the rest of the notes in a Natural Minor scale are the same as in the Major scale.

This can be confusing because the second scale degree in Natural Minor is a wholestep above the root:

C Major Scale

├─C─┼───┼─D─┼───┼─E─┼─F─┼───┼─G─┼───┼─A─┼───┼─B─┼─ C─┤
..root........2nd.......3rd...4th........5th...... ...6th.......7th....root

C Minor Scale

├─C─┼───┼─D─┼─Eb─┼───┼─F─┼───┼─G─┼─Ab─┼───┼─Bb─┼── ─┼─C─┤
..root.......2nd...3rd.........4th.........5th...6 th..........7th........root

Notice the intervals they both share. The only differences are the 3rd, 6th, and 7th. The remaining intervals found in both Minor and Major are the major 2nd, the perfect 4th, and the perfect 5th.

But your observation is correct - the 2nd degree in Minor is not a "minor 2nd". The minor 2nd is found in the phrygian mode, and the locrian mode.

C Phrygian

├─C─┼─Db─┼───┼─Eb─┼───┼─F─┼───┼─G─┼─Ab─┼───┼─Bb─┼─ ──┼─C─┤
..root...2nd.........3rd.........4th.........5th.. .6th.........7th.........root
Phrygian has four flatted notes in it:
flatted 2nd, flatted 3rd, flatted 6th, flatted 7th
The only remaining intervals found in both Phrygian and Major are the perfect 4th and perfect 5th.

C Locrian

├─C─┼─Db─┼───┼─Eb─┼───┼─F─┼─Gb─┼───┼─Ab─┼───┼─Bb─┼ ───┼─C─┤
..root...2nd.........3rd.........4th...5th........ ...6th.........7th.........root
Locrian has five flatted notes in it:
flatted 2nd, flatted 3rd, flatted 5th, flatted 6th, flatted 7th
The only remaining interval found in both Locrian and Major is the perfect 4th.

C phrygian contains this minor 2nd. C locrian does as well, but has the additional diminished 5th.
♪ ♫♫♪

judge_gideon

12-22-2005, 09:46 AM

Aria has a chip on his shoulder

Alive

12-22-2005, 01:36 PM

Sup mahoosive thread.

What are tetrachords? Chors with multiple notes is what the name seems to suggest.

Also, I know the basic principles of 4 part harmony, but I don't know how to practice it.

Steerpike (if you are still here) ~ I had that Idiot's Guide... for about 3 months from my library, and although I'm not able to recite it all from memory, I feel that it was (or at least it started off) too simple for me, as I could already read notation and whatnot.

Can anyone give me another book that starts at a slightly higher level than that, going into effective counterpoint, usage of modes of harmonic/melodic minor scales etc?

Trigger_003

12-22-2005, 04:11 PM

Haha it did get a bit out of control eh? Kinda turned into an all purpose beginner's theory thread :p.

Lydisk, Simon,
Yeah it's the "scale split in half thing".
As I said briefly before, a tetrachord is simply either the first four or last four notes of a scale such as natural minor or major. So what this means is - well it's better to show it through a couple of examples...

Cmajor:
CDEFGABC
|--||--|

CDEF is our first tetrachord.
GABC is our second tetrachord.

Now, starting on G (the first note of the second tetrachord), we start to construct G major:
G A B C D E F# G

GABC = 1st tetrachord
D E F# G = 2nd tetrachord

Let's look again at the second tetrachord from Cmaj - GABC.
See how this occurs again in Gmaj, but this time as the first tetrachord?

Then, if we start again with the second tetrachord of Gmaj - D,E,F#,G - we can create D maj:
D E F# G A B C# D

And so forth throughout all the keys.
If you continue this process, you will probably notice that each time, another sharp is added to the last tetrachord (and all the current sharps are held over from the scale before). And possibly, just possibly, each time, the sharp occurs on the seventh note of the scale - i.e. the second last note of the second tetrachord (with the major scale anyway - that's not going to happen with every scale necessarily).
The next one, for example (which will be Amaj), will have a G# along with the sharps that were already there in Dmaj (F# and C#).

You don't actually play them as a chord as far as I know... the only use I've really seen for them is to make scale construction and stuff related to that (like the amount of sharps) insanely simple.

Simon, it's probably better to start a new thread on four-part... it's a topic that doesn't really start until grade 4 theory - might scare the little guys lol.

EDIT: oh and as for books, it's probably worth borrowing out some theory books that work in the graded system. When you get up to a grade that you find yourself not knowing a lot of, buy the book if you need and get working on it.
There are more specific books that cover particular areas, but the graded books are going to work you through the majority of topics, whereas other general or specialist theory books only cover a few (in comparison anyway). If you need more information on a specific topic than the graded book entails, I'm always here :) (or Gav - or Greg although I don't know what grade he's at. Gav's grade 5 or something which is pretty decent), or you could look into one of those more specialist books. But if you were asking me, I'd start off with the graded ones.

Lydisk

12-22-2005, 05:22 PM

i feel that i have mastered grade three.
i think ill have to do some serious meter studies now.

Trigger_003

12-22-2005, 05:37 PM

Awesome. I went pretty indepth into meters in http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318711, so that might be worth checking out if you haven't already seen it :).

Forlorn Hope

12-22-2005, 07:27 PM

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-22-2005, 07:53 PM

Greg, depending on how pendantic you want to get, you could say that the minor second interval does occur in any natural minor scale, ;).

How are you?

DRAGON_MASTER

12-23-2005, 12:02 AM

Do you guys know a site that teaches music theory directly applied to the guitar? I can read the notes on a staff, and i can play an A, for example...but when i see A on the staff, i am not sure which octave of A i play on guitar. I guess i just need a site that teaches standard notation applied to the guitar....thanks in advance

I wonder this same thing all the time its one fo the many questions floating around in my head. any help would be great!!!

Also what is the hamonic minor scale? and what makes it the harmonic minor scale?

Trigger_003

12-23-2005, 12:43 AM

Just learn how to read standard notation, then anything you write down in your theory, you will be able to apply instantly to guitar... as I pointed out in post #18 (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10813344&postcount=18) in this thread.

Actually, go back to that post... there's a link to a lesson on how to read standard notation there, and a basic representation of the notes on the stave and their corresponding positions on the first 6 frets on each string or something like that.

You can either use that or you can learn how to read standard notation through a beginner's book - most likely a classical one. These introduce a few notes at a time and give you exercises with which to practise those. After a while, it'll add a few more, etc etc.

Sorry, I'd do a more in depth post here, but I've gotta go. I'm sure a certain someone will follow it up ;).

DRAGON_MASTER

12-23-2005, 01:09 AM

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 01:14 AM

Gavin,

Greg, depending on how pendantic you want to get, you could say that the minor second interval does occur in any natural minor scale

Totally understood :D every halfstep interval is a minor second. But, I guess the best way to teach beginners these intervals and assign numbers (like 2nd, 3rd, etc.) is to show where they occur in a scale in reference to the tonic.
♪ ♫♫♪

aria

12-23-2005, 01:22 AM

Aria has a chip on his shoulder

k who r u n wtf is ur prob?

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-23-2005, 01:43 AM

i have another question i dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but i just want to get it out befroe i forget. so i put the c major scale to the fretboard myself, i think someone posted it before but i made it for myself to really see it. it went something like
-------------------023-----
-----------------13--------
-------------024------------
---------023-----------------
-----023------------------------
-013--------------------------
it may not begin and end on c but i think u get my point. Corect me if im wrong, but then i figured i would try to do it with the c minor scale and i realized that because of the flats it was not as easy and i would have to skip around strings and whatnot. If someone could show me how to put the c minor scale to the neck of the guitar that would be sick. Sorry if this is a repeat i just didnt want to forget.
Hmm, that has just one mistake - I'll show you where.

That scale you posted goes E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G.

Now, do you want simple shapes for C major and minor?

Major:

|-------------------------5-7-8-|
|-------------------5-6-8-------|
|-------------4-5-7-------------|
|-------3-5-7-------------------|
|-3-5-7-------------------------|
|-------------------------------|

Natural Minor:

|-------------------------4-6-8-|
|-------------------4-6-8-------|
|-------------3-5-7-------------|
|-------3-5-6-------------------|
|-3-5-6-------------------------|
|-------------------------------|

Harmonic Minor:

|-------------------------4-7-8-|
|-------------------4-6-8-------|
|-------------4-5-7-------------|
|-------3-5-6-------------------|
|-3-5-6-------------------------|
|-------------------------------|

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-23-2005, 01:44 AM

Gavin,

Totally understood :D every halfstep interval is a minor second. But, I guess the best way to teach beginners these intervals and assign numbers (like 2nd, 3rd, etc.) is to show where they occur in a scale in reference to the tonic.
♪ ♫♫♪
Haha, I was just playing around :thumb:

DRAGON_MASTER

12-23-2005, 02:02 AM

thank you for the minor scale, i just had some trouble finding where it would be played. My main problem with it where to play things on the fretboard for instance i took blink 182- damnit because it was the first song to come to mind with a simple intro
the tab reads
------------------------
------------------------
-------------------------
------------0-----0----2----
--3------3------------------
--------------------------
for the very opening riff.

now i tried to apply my music reading skills that i just read baout in a one of your guys' links and i figured out it could be played

----------------------------
------------------------------
-----------------------------
--------------------------------
---------------5------5-----7-------
--8-------8----------------------

its the same problem i had coming up with that minor scale, and its just like it seems like it can be played in so many different fretboard positions, how do you choose which one is the right one. For example if i were to write the note C on a staff that doesnt tell me what string to play on does it?

Im guessing you just have to read the music and discover the easiest way to play that specific piece, but correct me if i am wrong!

BY THE WAY THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HELPS, I WAS TRYING TO DO IT ON MY OWN AND COULDNT GET ANYWHERE BUT I THINK IM MOVING ALONG FAIRLY QUICKLY, OR AT LEAST GETTING MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE AND QUICKER WITH THINGS EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A LONG WAY TO GO.

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-23-2005, 02:07 AM

Yeah, basically if you see a middle C on the staff it can be played:

|-------------|
|-------------|
|-------------|
|-------------|
|-----or----3-|
|-8-----------|

DRAGON_MASTER

12-23-2005, 02:11 AM

middle C? sorry these little terms catch me sometimes, a short explanation would be great, thanks

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 03:13 AM

DRAGON_MASTER,

You're asking a great question. What good are theoretical ideas if they aren't practical? Yeah, guitar is such a visual, pattern-oriented instrument. The guitar has a seemingly mysterious layout - but once you get a grasp on how to find cross-string intervals, you'll see repeated patterns more and more. Don't forget those interval patterns I posted on page 1 of this thread. Those patterns are essential.

Theoretical study and fretboard patterns are equally important. You can't have one without the other. After all, a scale if it isn't adequately diagramed on the neck, it only exists as some disconnected gaseous vapor wafting about in the ethereal realm. But, lay down some fretboard diagrams and tabs, then your theory is factus viscus et sanguis (become flesh & blood).

Here's some help with patterns, and after you learn these, we will discuss how to move them around the neck so you can play them in all 12 keys ;) even C# and Cb Major.

• = root
• = 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th

C Major 1st Fingering (open)

• ┌─•─┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
• ├─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
• ├───┼─•─┼───┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
• ├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
• ├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼───┼───┼───┤
• └─•─┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┴───┴───┘
open.................3rd fret

┌────────────────────────0─1─3──┐
├───────────────────0─1─3───────┤
├────────────────0─2────────────┤
├───────────0─2─3───────────────┤
├──────0─2─3────────────────────┤
└─0─1─3─────────────────────────┘

C Major 2nd Fingering

┌───┬───┬─•─┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┐
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
└───┴───┴─•─┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┘
..................3rd fret

┌─────────────────────────────3─5──┐
├───────────────────────3─5─6──────┤
├─────────────────2─4─5────────────┤
├───────────2─3─5──────────────────┤
├─────2─3─5────────────────────────┤
└─3─5──────────────────────────────┘

C Major 3rd Fingering

┌───┬───┬─•─┬───┬─•─┬─•─┬───┐
├───┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
└───┴───┴─•─┴───┴─•─┴─•─┴───┘
..................5th fret

┌─────────────────────────────5─7─8───┐
├───────────────────────5─6─8─────────┤
├─────────────────4─5─7───────────────┤
├─────────────5─7─────────────────────┤
├───────5─7─8─────────────────────────┤
└─5─7─8───────────────────────────────┘

...continued on next post.
♪ ♫♫♪

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-23-2005, 03:41 AM

middle C? sorry these little terms catch me sometimes, a short explanation would be great, thanks
Middle C is the C that appears in the middle of the grandstaff.

That is, the note one ledger line underneath on treble clef, and one ledger line above bass clef.

It is also the C in the very middle of the piano.

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 03:44 AM

C Major 4th Fingering

┌───┬───┬─•─┬─•─┬───┬─•─┬───┐
├───┼───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┤
└───┴───┴─•─┴─•─┴───┴─•─┴───┘
...................7th fret

┌───────────────────────────────────7─8─10──┐
├──────────────────────────────8─10─────────┤
├───────────────────────7─9─10──────────────┤
├────────────────7─9─10─────────────────────┤
├─────────7─8─10────────────────────────────┤
└──7─8─10───────────────────────────────────┘

C Major 5th Fingering

┌───┬───┬─•─┬───┬─•─┬─•─┬───┐
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
└───┴───┴─•─┴───┴─•─┴─•─┴───┘
...................10th fret

┌──────────────────────────────────────────10─12─1 3──┐
├─────────────────────────────────10─12─13──────── ───┤
├─────────────────────────9─10─12───────────────── ───┤
├─────────────────9─10─12───────────────────────── ───┤
├───────────10─12───────────────────────────────── ───┤
└──10─12─13─────────────────────────────────────── ───┘

All of these patterns repeate progressively upward in a loop. After you play the 5th fingering, it starts back over at the 1st fingering:

C Major 1st Fingering (12th fret)

┌───┬───┬─•─┬─•─┬───┬─•─┬───┐
├───┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
└───┴───┴─•─┴─•─┴───┴─•─┴───┘
...................12th fret

┌───────────────────────────────────────────12─13─ 15───┐
├───────────────────────────────────12─13─15────── ─────┤
├─────────────────────────────12─14─────────────── ─────┤
├────────────────────12─14─15───────────────────── ─────┤
├───────────12─14─15────────────────────────────── ─────┤
└──12─13─15─────────────────────────────────────── ─────┘

♪ ♫♫♪
[*edit: Yes, Gavin was right, this last pattern had an error, but it is fixed now]

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-23-2005, 03:49 AM

omgz I spy with my little eye, a Bb in that last C major scale.

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 04:17 AM

It is also the C in the very middle of the piano.
I think he wants to know where it is on the guitar neck.

There is a small problem when you compare the middle C written on guitar with the middle C of piano. Music written in treble clef for guitar is written an octave higher than it sounds.

So, the written middle C for guitar is not the true middle C. The reason for this is because the lower range of guitar's notes spill over into the bass clef, and contain too many ledger lines to write useful music.

The "Written" Middle C for guitar

┌────────┬─────────┐
├────────┼─────────┤
├────────┼─────────┤
├────────┼─────────┤
├───3────┼─────────┤
└────────┴────8────┘

Actual Middle C on the guitar

┌────────┬─────────┬─────────┬─────────┬───── ───┐
├───1────┼─────────┼─────────┼─────────┼───── ───┤
├────────┼────5────┼─────────┼─────────┼───── ───┤
├────────┼─────────┼────10───┼─────────┼───── ───┤
├────────┼─────────┼─────────┼────15───┼───── ───┤
└────────┴─────────┴─────────┴─────────┴───20 ───┘

When you play with a pianist who refers to the middle C, you should realize he means the Actual Middle C on the guitar, and not the first ledger line under the treble clef staff.
♪ ♫♫♪

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-23-2005, 04:21 AM

I already pointed out where middle C was earlier though, so I didn't think I needed to again, heh.

aria

12-23-2005, 04:26 AM

lol competiton

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 04:28 AM

Well yeah, I did see your explanation. I am simply pointing out that the true middle C is elsewhere on the neck.

:D

What projects are you currently involved with Gavin? I'd like to know more about you. You have lots of knowledge - I'm sure you're a shredder. The world needs more shredders :)
♪♫♫♪

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 04:29 AM

Uh oh Gavin, there's a fungus among us :p

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 04:31 AM

aria,

Gavin and I engage in useful and productive argumentation for the sole purpose of admonishing one another in a spirit of genuine love and mutual respect. ;)

aria

12-23-2005, 04:38 AM

uh oh i see mebe use edit function dood quit ur spam

Diatonic Dissonance™

12-23-2005, 04:40 AM

aria

12-23-2005, 04:40 AM

btw avgon*

judge_gideon

12-23-2005, 05:03 AM

DRAGON_MASTER,

If someone could show me how to put the c minor scale to the neck of the guitar that would be sick. Sorry if this is a repeat i just didnt want to forget.
Yes, now with those C Major fingerings I posted, you can shift those either up or down the neck, and play any major or minor scale. And consequently, any mode.

Since there are 12 keys, there are 12 major scales.

Each major scale has 7 modes: Ionian (major), Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian (minor), Locrian
12 keys, 7 modes/key
12 X 7 = 84

Yep, 84 scale patterns are possible, if you just learn the 5 fingerings I gave you earlier.

Keeping this in mind, let's try to move one of those fingerings, so that the root note in the C pattern is now on top of a new root note Eb (this will give us C minor).

C Major 2nd Fingering

┌───┬───┬─•─┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┐
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
└───┴───┴─•─┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┘
..................3rd fret

┌─────────────────────────────3─5──┐
├───────────────────────3─5─6──────┤
├─────────────────2─4─5────────────┤
├───────────2─3─5──────────────────┤
├─────2─3─5────────────────────────┤
└─3─5──────────────────────────────┘

Now, move this pattern a step-and-a-half up the neck. The root on the third fret A string slides up to the 6th fret A string.

Eb Major 2nd Fingering

┌───┬───┬─•─┬───┬─•─┬───┬───┐
├───┼───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
├───┼─•─┼─•─┼───┼─•─┼───┼───┤
└───┴───┴─•─┴───┴─•─┴───┴───┘
....................6th fret

┌─────────────────────────────6─8──┐
├───────────────────────6─8─9──────┤
├─────────────────5─7─8────────────┤
├───────────5─6─8──────────────────┤
├─────5─6─8────────────────────────┤
└─6─8──────────────────────────────┘

If translating a major scale into minor gives you trouble, just remember, every minor scale root is the 6th scale degree of a major scale. This is the relative minor:

C major's relative minor is A
ex.
C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1

So, playing C major is the same as playing A minor.

Selecting a different key is no different. Eb major's relative minor is C
ex.
Eb,F,G,Ab,Bb,C,D,Eb
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1

If you want to play in C minor, just play an Eb major scale pattern, and treat the C notes as your new minor scale roots.
♪♫♫♪