Monster Chops

[Drummer884]

If you are looking to improve your chops, or develope some if they are non-existent, then here is a free site with four different steps to improve, create, and practice chops. This guy "Tiger bill" studied with Joe Morello who, in turn, studied with Billy Gladstone himself!

http://www.tigerbill.com/features/da001017.htm

There's other good stuff there too. Oh, and don't bother trying to copy and paste (it's all protected).

[Bone]

Hmm a decent article on some pretty basic stuff.

If you want some monster chops. Check out the incredible variety and number of cadences, excerises, rudiments, solos and hybrids at www.rudimentaldrumming.com
Endless material on developing your big powerful strokes.

Also be sure to ear your oats!

[Drummer884]

Yeah, I was hopeing someone else would post another site. thanks bone.

I have some chops, but tiger's site isn't for me...I need the notes like on your site.

[Skin Beater]

At least this thread wasn't about Art Verdi.

[Josiah]

What are monster chops?

I don't think it's so much how many notes you can play, but how you can use them in musical situations, styles, phrases and comping.

[Det_Nosnip]

Yeah, like Tiger Bill. Most musical player on the planet. ;)

[Josiah]

No... no, that's art verdi.



Though to contribute, I've found flamming 3 on a hand is great. Plus plain old Stick Control myself. That's like a bottomless pit of stuff to shed on for me, then again, I try to be creative with it.

[dumbassdrummer]

"That's like a bottomless pit of stuff to shed on for me, then again, I try to be creative with it."

And that's what it's all about. Taking patterns, working them, then making them something else. Playing them backwards, inside out, flam the accents, double the accents, on and on, doing everything to it you can imagine.

[Drummer884]

"That's like a bottomless pit of stuff to shed on for me, then again, I try to be creative with it."

And that's what it's all about. Taking patterns, working them, then making them something else. Playing them backwards, inside out, flam the accents, double the accents, on and on, doing everything to it you can imagine.
You guys sound like you listen to alternative though most drummers on here prefer metal. IMO metal isn't all that great.

I LIKE(there you go det)senses fail because dan trapp is very creative with the hi-hat and cymbals. Thrice is great too, the used(from the taste of ink...I don't like their new shiz), matchbook romance has some pretty decent fills, and Underoath does everythng well. Atreyu just gets better and better(one of my only metal bands) and From first to last surprised me with there first album...Oh and can I get a WHAT WHAT for strung out? haha.

It's true chops don't come into my playing, nor do I guess your's, but I am going to go to college for drumming and I'm looking to brush up on chops for when I go(a lot of lessons are based on chops). I plan to teach partime when I graduate.

[ThugsRook]

no thx im not interested in monster chops ~ id rather be a musician and write/play music.

drumming isnt a sport, its about being creative in new ways. a concept way too many of you dont seem to grasp.

[Drummer884]

no thx im not interested in monster chops ~ id rather be a musician and write/play music.

drumming isnt a sport, its about being creative in new ways. a concept way too many of you dont seem to grasp.
um, yeah. We are talking about learning, not playing a sport you joker. *makes jerking off motion*.

And like you have a right to profile us...You don't even know us. Creative and new? Man you are on top of the "game" my friend(or not?). Dude, no one plays the same way, and I bet you didn't know that. Why don't you get a bit learned before you come and give a lecture on a !FORUM! for sweet mary's grandmother!

[Massik Kretal]

BURN! :lol:

[Josiah]

no thx im not interested in monster chops ~ id rather be a musician and write/play music.

drumming isnt a sport, its about being creative in new ways. a concept way too many of you dont seem to grasp.


Creative in new ways indeed, I haven't seen that kind of ignorance displayed in a single sentence in quite a long time!


But then again, I guess Vinnie C., Jim Chapin, Tony Williams, Stanton Moore, Jef Queen... yea, those guys aren't musicians.

[Drummer884]

But then again, I guess Vinnie C., Jim Chapin, Tony Williams, Stanton Moore, Jef Queen... yea, those guys aren't musicians.
Yeah...totaly, no creativity there...

Man...Some people huh?

[Det_Nosnip]

You guys sound like you listen to alternative though most drummers on here prefer metal. IMO metal isn't all that great. I like senses fail because dan trapp is very creative with the hi-hat and cymbals. Thrice is great too, the used(from the taste of ink...I don't like their new shiz), matchbook romance has some pretty decent fills, and Underoath does everythng well. Atreyu ust gets better and better(on of my only metal bands) and From first to last surprised me with there first album...Oh and can I get a WHAT WHAT for strung out? haha.

It's true chops don't come into my playing, nor do I guess your's, but I am going to go to college for drumming and I'm looking to brush up on chops for when I go(a lot of lessons are based on chops). I plan to teach partime when I graduate.

If you plan on getting all the way through college, I'd seriously suggest you kick the crack habit pretty soon. :lol: Seriously, man..what the hell are you talking about? "Alternative"? What gave you the impression that anybody listens to that...or, that anybody does NOT listen to metal? Is it not possible to listen to both? What do you even mean by alternative? :confused: Senses Fail? Atreyu? Thrice? These are the best examples of "metal" that you can come up with?! If you're going to criticize an entire genre of music, AT LEAST use examples of bands from that genre in your criticism. ...And what does any of this have to do with "monster chops" ?!

[Drummer884]

If you plan on getting all the way through college, I'd seriously suggest you kick the crack habit pretty soon. :lol: Seriously, man..what the hell are you talking about? "Alternative"? What gave you the impression that anybody listens to that...or, that anybody does NOT listen to metal? Is it not possible to listen to both? What do you even mean by alternative? :confused: Senses Fail? Atreyu? Thrice? These are the best examples of "metal" that you can come up with?! If you're going to criticize an entire genre of music, AT LEAST use examples of bands from that genre in your criticism. ...And what does any of this have to do with "monster chops" ?!
OMG!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!! !!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

You can read?

[Drummer884]

I don't really remember typing critisisms about metal....Nope, um, no I can't see where I typed that...I simply typed I don't like it. These are oppinions we are dealing with, right? Or are you always right? hmm, I did not know that. You can click on the monster chops sites at the begining of this thread if you would like, but after they were posted I don't really think there was much to say. just a couple-o-drummers shooting the breeze...

And I never ment senses fail to be taken as metal, they are alternative and a favorite of mine.

And don't you ever talk to me about passing college. I was already taught by a proffesor. Oh, and I have had past problems with crack and it chokes me up when somone brings my old habit back up.*lights up bowl*

SUCK MY COC DET_NOSNIP! I can unzip my pants for you...or make it easier on yourself next time and re-read the posts as well your own.
Oh, I edited my earlier coment for you...

[Det_Nosnip]

Ok, genius:

Why did you start talking about ANY of that? Josiah and dumbassdrummer were talking about possible applications of stick control....you even quoted the latter in your post. And then......*ding ding* completely random rambling rant about....god knows what. I take it that was when you hit the crack pipe....

None of these topics are genre-specific. They find the most common application in jazz, funk, and fusion, but can be applied anywhere. Again, I repeat the question: what the **** does your liking alternative or disliking metal have ANYTHING to do with this?

Here's an ingenius notion: if you can't think of anything intelligent to say, DON'T SPEAK.

By the way, until you can spell "professor," you aren't ready for college. Sorry to bring it to you.

[FockerTheLopper]

What are monster chops?

I don't think it's so much how many notes you can play, but how you can use them in musical situations, styles, phrases and comping.
Not true, I can't solo due to my lack of "moster chops" it takes a combination of alot of notes and not alot of notes, you just need to know when it would be musical to apply those monster chops. You should deffinately look at monster chops especially if your looking to play jazz

[Josiah]

Umm..

You said no, then repeated almsot exactly what I said.


You don't need monster chops to solo. In fact, I'm thinking of that from jazz solos I've heard that really used very little in the way of chops. Simply some of the best jazz solo's I've heard used creative phrasing, play off the tunes melodic structure and are really fairly simple.

The latest MD has a transcription of of Elvin trading 4's on a record. There's no monster chops in there at all.

Hmm even more that I think about it, some of the most influential, known and gretest jazz albums of all time had very very little in the way of chops on them at all.
Miles 'Kind of Blue' comes to mind.


Oh by the way, since it's bad news dropping thread. The reason you "can't solo" has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of chops.

[Det_Nosnip]

Well, take the famous Rich vs Roach duels. In my opinion, Roach took that one, hands down...and yet Rich obviously had alot more chops than him (then again, Rich had more chops than EVERYONE, but still ;) ). Roach's solos were simply more interesting, to my ears.

[FockerTheLopper]

Umm..

You said no, then repeated almsot exactly what I said.


You don't need monster chops to solo. In fact, I'm thinking of that from jazz solos I've heard that really used very little in the way of chops. Simply some of the best jazz solo's I've heard used creative phrasing, play off the tunes melodic structure and are really fairly simple.

The latest MD has a transcription of of Elvin trading 4's on a record. There's no monster chops in there at all.

Hmm even more that I think about it, some of the most influential, known and gretest jazz albums of all time had very very little in the way of chops on them at all.
Miles 'Kind of Blue' comes to mind.


Oh by the way, since it's bad news dropping thread. The reason you "can't solo" has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of chops.
Okay first off **** you for that insult because it wasn't called for. Second off, your right soloing is hard but if you have the ability to use monster chops then your playing will expand

[Josiah]

I didn't think I insulted you?

If you mean, not being able to solo because of not having chops. Nto an insult, just a truth.

I think you can solo, I don't think you are held back by how fast or complex you can play notes. It's just disscouraging to see someone, who displays at least on here, a aptitude for learning, to make such a seemingly ignorant statement.

But of course your playing will expand from having chops, but that's not the same as your playing being limited from not having them.

[ThugsRook]

Well, take the famous Rich vs Roach duels. In my opinion, Roach took that one, hands down...and yet Rich obviously had alot more chops than him (then again, Rich had more chops than EVERYONE, but still ;) ). Roach's solos were simply more interesting, to my ears.
exactly! its not what you do (chops), it how you do it (creativity).

ill take a creative drummer over a chops drummer anyday of the week cause the creative drummer will play something ive never heard before.

im far from saying chops are a waste of time, but if you dont know how to use them creatively youll need to work on that.



sport drumming, technical drumming, and emulation seem to be the priority these days :rolleyes:

work on being creative and different.

[Japan3gro]

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/Willkennedy.html

A solo based from a groove.

You don't have to be Dennis Chambers to solo.

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/Dennischambers1.html

[FockerTheLopper]

I didn't think I insulted you?

If you mean, not being able to solo because of not having chops. Nto an insult, just a truth.

I think you can solo, I don't think you are held back by how fast or complex you can play notes. It's just disscouraging to see someone, who displays at least on here, a aptitude for learning, to make such a seemingly ignorant statement.

But of course your playing will expand from having chops, but that's not the same as your playing being limited from not having them.
Alright justified and true, that was my whole point that having chops will expand your soloing. As for me I don't know how to make a solo [yet] without having chops but I haven't been playing for that long(almost 2 years). Now, someone like Elvin could easily come up with a musical and intresting solo that doesn't require chops but thats because he had a great ability to modifty time(in terms of polyrhythms and such) kind of like Copeland. Lets take another player on the other end, all chops no musical phrasing or sense, Virgil Donati, extremely boring just all chops. The best solos would come right in the middle when you combine musicality with chops and examples are any solo by Neil Peart, John Bonhams Moby Dick(very abstract but it isn't boring so thats musical) and other people like Vinnie and Weckl, during the drum "battle" between them 2 and Gadd you could see the difference in their styles. Coliatiua was just beasting out, whereas Weckl was holding back- alot. Gadd was just really grooving and making it sound good.

[Det_Nosnip]

exactly! its not what you do (chops), it how you do it (creativity).

ill take a creative drummer over a chops drummer anyday of the week cause the creative drummer will play something ive never heard before.

im far from saying chops are a waste of time, but if you dont know how to use them creatively youll need to work on that.



sport drumming, technical drumming, and emulation seem to be the priority these days :rolleyes:

work on being creative and different.

Well, I don't really think that it's an issue of chops v creativity. Many of the greats had both of these, and I do think that it is important to build up your technique and technical skills, as these allow you to express yourself more freely. You can also have the reverse end, where somebody is very creative and different but sorely lacking in technical abilities...he or she might have all kinds of great, interesting ideas, but he'll either never be able to play them or he'll play them so sloppily that nobody will be able to appreciate it.

[Drummer884]

You can also have the reverse end, where somebody is very creative and different but sorely lacking in technical abilities...he or she might have all kinds of great, interesting ideas, but he'll either never be able to play them or he'll play them so sloppily that nobody will be able to appreciate it.
I have seen a lot of drummers like that. My friend has pretty good chops yet he doesn't know what to do with them. Its like he has all this technical stuff but sticks to basic beats and fills. It makes me mad when he pwns me on the snare, which is why I was looking for chops sites.

[The syllek attacks]

I think it's important to have both, like it's all good if you can come up with cool bass patern but if you just hit out 2&4 all song cuz you don't have the chops to make the layers intresting your dead in the water.

[Det_Nosnip]

Well, look at it this way: having chops doesn't mean you have to use them. Not having chops DOES mean that you have to not use them, though.

[Josiah]

Now, someone like Elvin could easily come up with a musical and intresting solo that doesn't require chops but thats because he had a great ability to modifty time(in terms of polyrhythms and such) kind of like Copeland.


Boy you sure are missing it. It's like you almost don't want to play unless you have some unknown amount of chops.

The reason elvin can solo without chops, is because you don't need chops to solo. It's really that simple, no need to complicate things further.


I could solo using only 8th notes and 3 drums and make it musical, interesting, varying in styles and have a melodic structure.

I can do that, not because I can blaze 32nd note flam phrases, but because I've learned to develop creativity, musicality, touch, phrasing and structure with the instrument.


Thus I'll say again, while having chops can expand your playing, not having them does not limit your playing.

[Det_Nosnip]

Well, it does limit your playing, but it doesn't prevent you from performing a solo. :p

[Josiah]

I think that's a rather pessimistic view of reality. Your playing will technically always be limited because you can always be better.

But that's just part of the knowns of life.

There is absolutely no reason someone couldn't construct a musically genius solo because they couldn't play flam taps at 180bpm.

To think you can't solo because you don't have enough chops, well that's just plain wrong. People can play solos, short and long, 2 bars or 32 without the need for monster chops.

[firefoxzero]

I guess I don't need to develop any more chops then :rolleyes: . I think chops are needed because even playing eighth notes is some form of chops. I think learning more chops would increase creativity if creative exercises are applied to learning chops.

Creativity needs chops.

Chops need creativity.

[ThugsRook]

Well, look at it this way: having chops doesn't mean you have to use them. Not having chops DOES mean that you have to not use them, though.
not having ANY chops basicly means you cant play.
you can have serious chops and never practice them directly.

you can have monster chops and still suck because you have no creativity or imagination.


either way, chops in of themselves are not impressive and pretty much sound like cr@p IMO.

[firefoxzero]

either way, chops in of themselves are not impressive and pretty much sound like cr@p IMO.

I'm not being funny but I don't understand. Please give me an example of what you mean. :confused: :)

[dumbassdrummer]

"I'm not being funny but I don't understand. Please give me an example of what you mean."

People who have lightning chops - insane speed - but cannot use it musically. If you blindly thrash around the kit, at any speed, no matter, it is going to sound awful.

[Det_Nosnip]

Yes, but hearing Vinnie Colaiuta or Dave Weckl rip their kits apart is something entirely different. :evil:

I dunno...maybe my standards are too high, but I'd like to someday be able to perform at that level. As you said, you can always be better, but that doesn't mean you should just give it up altogether. I often have ideas that require chops beyond my abilities.....therefore, I feel it perfectly reasonable to work on my chops.

[Josiah]

I guess I don't need to develop any more chops then :rolleyes: . I think chops are needed because even playing eighth notes is some form of chops. I think learning more chops would increase creativity if creative exercises are applied to learning chops.

Creativity needs chops.

Chops need creativity.


That's entirelly untrue. You don't need to develop any more chops if you don't want.

However there are a lot.. and I do mean a LOT of guys out there. PLaying as professional drummers who do so without anythingso to speak in the world of chops and are perfectly content.

I used to know a guy who played in a honky tonk band that toured around the south. No chops, he did nothing but play a plain old simple shuffle the whole time. Now granted, he made that simple shuffle sound awesome! But no chops, hardly a fill and if it was something utterly simple.

He was perfectly happy to do that, he loved to play the simple grooves AND he made a living doing it.

So no. You do not need chops to be a professional drummer. You do not need chops to be musical. You do not need chops to play in a band.

Look at what meg white does, she doesn't have any chops. Yet, she plays professionally, loves what she does and despite what anyone may think. She is a professional drummer, doing it without chops.

I'm thinking of some of the drummers who played for guys like Frank Sinatra. Some of his sets required some very elegent playing form his drummers, yet also very very simple. There was no chops for many of franks music, it was soft music and the spotlight was frank.

These are just easy examples I came up with just sitting here.


However for the record, cause i know people LOVE to mince words. In drumming the term chops, is most often associated with technical playing skills required to play complex, fast and manipulating phrases or notes.


I wouldn't say meg white has any chops. However she is a professional drummer, making good music that sells.


I'd also like to mention a comment I recieved from a instructor of mine at MI. He said,"...plenty of guys have chops. Chops don't get gigs. 2 & 4 gets gigs. If you can set all your chops aside and just groove 2 & 4 - you can work."



I want to get technically better, like Ted. That's totally cool.

The point goes back to FockerTheLocker's statement that he can't solo because he doesn't have chops.

That's simply not true and a limiting way of thinking. You can solo without chops. You can play professionally without chops. It's just simply a matter if what you want to do.

I'm of the very strong view point that technical abbility is not releated to creative skill. This was shown to me when one of the greatest guitar players in the world was asked how he developed such creativity on guitar.
His reply - Creativity comes from forced expansion on limited basis.

I entirelly agree.

His suggestion for learn to be more creative and developing that abbility?

"Just pick 3 notes and only use those to construct a solo with."


My suggestion for building creativity on a drumset? Take it down to hats, kick and snare.


"Creativity comes from forced expansion on limited basis." - that is the summation of truth behind the reality that you do not need chops to be creative, solo, play musically or interesting.

[Kosmos Tree]

That's a great statement Josiah,

one of the things i'd like to contribute is, that "monster" chops also have a definition problem. Some might classify simple rolls as chops, others start with the stuff Lang or Donati do or have Art Verdi as a negative connotation in mind.

I think we can all agree that chops can expand your playing, many drummers bring very interesting aspects into their playing by using chops in a creative way, but you can get along quite good without them

Just like alot of people here I prefer to be able to do both, i want to get people moving but i also want to be able to pull off some chops if the music asks for it.

I'd also agree that you don't need chops to solo, i find chop solos rather boring, whoever brought up Bonzos Moby Dick, that solo for example does absolutely nothing for me. It's the same with Lang's soloing style, it's impressive - no doubt about that - but it doesn't touch me, whereas people like Chambers who go crazy with a groove really get me going.

[FockerTheLopper]

Well, look at it this way: having chops doesn't mean you have to use them. Not having chops DOES mean that you have to not use them, though.
Or simply put. Chops is just something extra. If you have them you don't need to them. If you don't have them then you CAN'T use them

[Det_Nosnip]

I'm thinking of some of the drummers who played for guys like Frank Sinatra. Some of his sets required some very elegent playing form his drummers, yet also very very simple. There was no chops for many of franks music, it was soft music and the spotlight was frank.
You know, Buddy Rich played for Frank as well.....:lol:

Here's a shocker: they didn't get along!


My suggestion for building creativity on a drumset? Take it down to hats, kick and snare.

Pfffffft......**** that! Get a Djembe. :cool:

[Josiah]

Yes, but that would also require purchasing something else.. *bubbles**cough*

[dumbassdrummer]

I've seen alot of players that have a great feel, but very limited chops. Some of them dont even have me beat on chops (which doesnt take very much!) but their feel is so great (and mine so awful) that they are 10x the drummer I am.

Look at Bonham in '69. He would get flamed here for his grip among other things. Yet at the same time, in '69, he had a great feel that still put him on the list of great drummers. He also lacked serious chops - sloppy, simple and not spectaularly fast either.

Later his chops got better, he cleaned up. Watch him ten years later in '79 and you see a great improvement - but he still has that same amazing feel that he had in '69, if a bit more relaxed.

Chops are great and can boost your playing, but, as Josiah said, 2 & 4 come first.

[firefoxzero]

You don't necessarily have to have a certain degree of chops but the more chops you have the more styles of music you can do and then it's easier for you to become a professional musician.

Meg White would be fecked if she asked to play in almost any other band :) .

[Josiah]

That's quite wrong thinking... yet again.


Chops don't land gigs.

I'm not sure how or why people think that, but it's very wrong. I can tell who isn't reading any interviews in MD or other mags.
Professional players, esspeccially the session guys talk all the time about how groove and feel is the most important. Chops and technique are a side tool that may or maynot be used in a gig.

I'll quote Rodney Holmes, from the latest MD (great player too) -

"I think pursuing technique is a never ending process. You can learn every word in the dictionary, but it doesn't mean you have to write the same books over and over. There are so many things you can do, including things that people have been playing for decades.
Some people want to play faster then everybody else. Technique is extremelly important to me, but I think sometimes people treat it as an end, rather then focusingon what they want to create, and realizing that you develop techniques to create things. I think sometimes drummers loose touch with that."

[ThisMustBeHeaven]

This thread should be moved to the begginer's forum...there is no use for advanced players to be arguing about the thinking behind "developing monster chops."

[firefoxzero]

That's quite wrong thinking... yet again.

Chops don't land gigs.

I'm not sure how or why people think that, but it's very wrong. I can tell who isn't reading any interviews in MD or other mags.
Professional players, esspeccially the session guys talk all the time about how groove and feel is the most important. Chops and technique are a side tool that may or maynot be used in a gig.

I'll quote Rodney Holmes, from the latest MD (great player too) -

"I think pursuing technique is a never ending process. You can learn every word in the dictionary, but it doesn't mean you have to write the same books over and over. There are so many things you can do, including things that people have been playing for decades.
Some people want to play faster then everybody else. Technique is extremelly important to me, but I think sometimes people treat it as an end, rather then focusingon what they want to create, and realizing that you develop techniques to create things. I think sometimes drummers loose touch with that."

How do you define chops and technique? Are they a totally seperate thing? I thought chops was a broad word for technique.

Yeah, I've heard loads of drummers say that it's about the groove and feel which of course if you're playing music it is, but if you're playing for example jazz, then you need good chops. I suppose you could play 2 and 4 but then that's very limiting.
The reason session players say it's about groove and feel is because they already have a huge amount of chops and technique and their job is to play drums which compliment the music they're playing to.

I think some drummers say it's all about the groove and feel because they don't want to learn chops anymore, they'd rather be more comfortable (and lazy) and play 2 and 4 every single song.

Edit: btw, I'm not referring to Rodney Holmes, I haven't heard him but I agree with him totally in that quote, I agree with you too but I would say more chops land you more gigs as more technical music can be played.

I'd say there's a load of very uninspiring bands out there who are successful mostly through luck and the drummers who play with feel and groove to those songs have a very easy job.

[FockerTheLopper]

Boy you sure are missing it. It's like you almost don't want to play unless you have some unknown amount of chops.

The reason elvin can solo without chops, is because you don't need chops to solo. It's really that simple, no need to complicate things further.


I could solo using only 8th notes and 3 drums and make it musical, interesting, varying in styles and have a melodic structure.

I can do that, not because I can blaze 32nd note flam phrases, but because I've learned to develop creativity, musicality, touch, phrasing and structure with the instrument.


Thus I'll say again, while having chops can expand your playing, not having them does not limit your playing.
Forget it... Talking to you is like talking to a wall. I'm gonna go eat my oats and try to learn some more things.

[Josiah]

How do you define chops and technique? Are they a totally seperate thing? I thought chops was a broad word for technique.




Technique is simply, the systematic procedure by which something is accomplished.

Chops I think generally refers to the abbility to play complex, modulated, highly syncopated or otherwise figures.

While of course it requires many/or a particular technique(s) to have "great chops". One can have great technique, and not have great chops. One might be a simple player, but what he plays is played with amazing technique, touch, groove and musicality.